What you should know about creatine...

I saw a huge thread about creatine. Thought I would share my experience and knowledge with it!

Ok first off, I do not reccommend using creatine monohydrate, creatine citrate or any other creatine besides creatine ethl ester. Why? Simply Creatine Eythl Ethyl Ester (CEE) is Creatine monohydrate w/ an ester attached to it but AN ENORMOUS difference!

First, you will not gain water weight like you normally do on creatine. This is great for us boxers when we're trying to stay under a certain weight class.

Second, you will get MUCH better absorbtion than you would regular creatine citrate or creatine monohydrate... While most trainees would need 15 gs a day of creatine monohydrate w/ CEE only 3-6 grams is needed.

Third, you will not need to assimilate carbs to make it work like you needed for other types of creatine

What does creatine do?
Gives us more energy in our muscles
Promotes Lean muscle gains
Helps us recover faster

Is it helpful for boxers? YES!!!


Side Effects?

there have been NO harmful side effects to date from creatine use. Long term side effects have YET to be discovered but in all liklihood you will be safe using creatine -- your body naturally produces it for christ sakes!

here are referenes i used to write this thread
REFERENCES
1. Racette SB. Creatine supplementation and athletic performance. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2003 Oct;33(10):615-21.
2. Kreider, R.B., 1999. Dietary supplements and the promotion of muscle growth with resistance exercise. Sports Medicine 27:97-110.
3. Becque, M.D., et al. 2000. Effects of oral creatine supplementation on muscular strength and body composition. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 32: 654-658.
4. Ingwal JS, Weiner CD, Morales MF, Davis E, Stockdale FE: Specificity of creatine in the control of muscle protein synthesis. J Cell Biol 63:145-151, 1974.
5. Rawson ES, Volek JS. Effects of creatine supplementation and resistance training on muscle strength and weightlifting performance. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Nov;17(4):822-31.
6. Kambis KW, Pizzedaz SK. Short-term creatine supplementation improves maximum quadriceps contraction in women. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2003 Mar;13(1):87-96.
7. Gill ND, Hall RD, Blazevich AJ. Creatine serum is not as effective as creatine powder for improving cycle sprint performance in competitive male team-sport athletes. J Strength Cond Res. 2004 May;18(2):272-5.
8. Rawson, E.S., et al. 1999. Effects of 30 days of creatine ingestion in older men. European Journal of Applied Physiology 80: 139-144.
9. Sosin D.M., Sniezek J.E., Thurman D.J.. Incidence of mild and moderate brain injury in the United States, 1991. Brain Inj 1996 Jan;10(1):47-54.

Sorry Joe_Ice but you are wrong. Creatine ester is a bogus supplement. There is no scientific support that shows attaching an ester to creatine makes it any better at all. This is simply marketting BS that the companies selling the stuff are saying. You bought it hook, line and sinker.

Creatine does not even enter muscle cells via membrane permiation. So attaching an ester to it won't do jack-s#@t. And you DON'T need carbs to make creatine monohydrtae effective. Hell, just look at the research you cited to see that.

Don't believe me? Ask the companies selling the stuff to show you the research that shows creatine ester even works at all much less better.

I see where you cited all that research at the bottom of your post. That is research on Creatine Monohydrate not creatine ester. Why would you say that about creatine ester and provide references for creatine monohydrtae?

Codie

your body produces testostrone (or atleast it should... :p) and look what roids will do to you.

I don't understand. What does that have to do with creatine?

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Originally Posted by codieJ

I don't understand. What does that have to do with creatine?

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there have been NO harmful side effects to date from creatine use. Long term side effects have YET to be discovered but in all liklihood you will be safe using creatine -- your body naturally produces it for christ sakes!

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Originally Posted by Confirm

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Originally Posted by codieJ

I don't understand. What does that have to do with creatine?

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there have been NO harmful side effects to date from creatine use. Long term side effects have YET to be discovered but in all liklihood you will be safe using creatine -- your body naturally produces it for christ sakes!

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I agree. Creatine monohydrate (not Creatine ester) has been studied extensively and is safe. But just because your body produces a chemical naturally does not mean it's safe to take.

Ok true... and u're wrong on the monohydrate. You needed the High GI carbs and the creatine monohydrate to spike ur insulin and carry it to your body

CEE is much better, uve obviously never done it. You need 1/3 of of the dose. theres plenty of findings out there. it's absorbed much better and why would it be a marketing scheme considering it's hardly a price diff between the two?

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Originally Posted by Joe_Ice

Ok true... and u're wrong on the monohydrate. You needed the High GI carbs and the creatine monohydrate to spike ur insulin and carry it to your body (why do you think that cell tech shit works?) although cell tech is crap and un-needed

CEE is much better, uve obviously never done it. You need 1/3 of of the dose. theres plenty of findings out there. it's absorbed much better and why would it be a marketing scheme considering it's hardly a price diff between the two?

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Originally Posted by Joe_Ice

Ok true... and u're wrong on the monohydrate. You needed the High GI carbs and the creatine monohydrate to spike ur insulin and carry it to your body

CEE is much better, uve obviously never done it. You need 1/3 of of the dose. theres plenty of findings out there. it's absorbed much better and why would it be a marketing scheme considering it's hardly a price diff between the two?

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Where are the"findings"? Where are the studies? How do you know you only need 1/3 of the dose? Is there research that says you only need 1/3 of the dose? What research says creatine ester is better absorbing? What research is there that even shows creatine ester works at all?

As far as creatine monohydrate goes, you DO NOT need high GI carbs for it to work. High GI carbs will make it work better but by no means are they necessary. Look at the research studies you yourself posted.

Creatine ester is a scam. The price of the supplement has no bering on whether it's a scam. Show me one single study that proves it's better than creatine monohydrate. Show me a single study that even shows it works at all.

If you can show me this then I will certainly reconsider my take on it.

codiej a ex bodybuilder or whatever says it works why would he lie and everything is dangerus nothing is 100% safe ,

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Originally Posted by danne__

codiej a ex bodybuilder or whatever says it works why would he lie and everything is dangerus nothing is 100% safe ,

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danne He's not intentionally lying he's just misguided. He has been sucked in by the advertizing and believes what the ads say. And creatine is not dangerous. It's a great supplement. Just don't waste your money on creatine ester. It's a bogus supplement and has not been proven to be effective at all.

codie with all due respect... your being a bit rude and if he says that you only need 1/3 the dose than maybe hes speaking from personal experience no need to get all "show me the research!!!" he was just trying to help people out on what works for him with creatine

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Originally Posted by warnotwars

codie with all due respect... your being a bit rude and if he says that you only need 1/3 the dose than maybe hes speaking from personal experience no need to get all "show me the research!!!" he was just trying to help people out on what works for him with creatine

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Look, I'm not being rude. I'm simply trying to prevent people from getting sucked into taking a worthless supplement when they can take a proven creatine monohydrate at 1/4 of the cost.

That's all. The stuff he's saying about creatine ester is straight from the ads.

Sorry if I'm sounding rude but people get sucked into these scams all the time.

!!! misguided? You're the one who seems to be mis guided? Oh how manyh people do you know who've used creatine monohydrate or CEE ? Yeah well i know tons of Body buildrees, power lifters, and athletes who've used both and myself included. U dont know what u're tlaking about..

heres just one of MANY studies for you

What is it and where does it come from?

Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL (CEE) is creatine monohydrate with an ester attached. Esters are organic compounds that are formed by esterification - the reaction of carboxylic acid and alcohols.

What does it do and what scientific studies give evidence to support this?

Regular creatine monohydrate has been shown effective at increasing lean muscle mass1,2,3,4, muscle strength5,6 and athletic performance.7,8

However, regular creatine monohydrate is absorbed poorly by the body - and its effectiveness is dependant upon the cells ability to absorb it. The poor absorption rate of regular creatine monohydrate requires the creatine user to ingest large dosages of creatine to achieve desired effect.

Because creatine draws water to the cell, and because most ingested creatine monohydrate is not absorbed, unabsorbed creatine will sit outside of the target cell with the water, and this will result in the "creatine bloat."

Long-term clinical studies have proven that creatine monohydrate is safe for use by persons free of medical complication9, but why would you want to ingest more creatine monohydrate than you have to simply because your creatine is inefficient?

Creatine ethyl ester is creatine monohydrate with an ester attached. The attachment of an ester is significant, because esters are found in the fat tissue of animals. But, why is this important? What role does this have in the absorption of creatine?

All substances that you put into your body will affect its operation. There are three ways that substances can affect a cells operation. They are:

1. Ligand binding to protein receptor sites.
2. Secondary messenger / metabotropic systems
3. Passive permeation of the cell wall via lipids

When a substance enters the body and affects the bodies operation, it is known as a ligand. The soma and dendrites of the cell have protein receptor sites to which ligands can bind. The process of a ligand binding with a receptor site is akin to a lock and key: only keys of a certain shape work with certain locks. When they work and cause the cells stimulation they are called agonists. When they block the cell from functioning they are called antagonists.

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When a ligand binds with the receptor site of a target cell, the cell, in the simplest of cases, changes its shape, opens up its ion channels and changes its function. In so-called "secondary messenger" or metabotropic cells, the ligand binds with the receptor site and an internal protein known as a g-protein is released. This released protein then binds to an internal site inside of the cell, and then the cell changes its behavior by opening its ion channels. Cells that operate in this way are known as metabotropic cells because their operation requires metabolic energy.

Passive permeation is a process that describes the diffusion of a substance across a cell membrane through the use of lipids as transport mechanisms. Because no "work" is being done by the cell in this model, this model is called passive permeation.

Creatine monohydrate utilizes lipids to permeate the cell wall and enter the cell. Because of this, the esterification of creatine, and the presence of esters in animal fat tissue, becomes significant.

Creatine monohydrate is semi-lipopholic. This means that it inefficiently uses fat as a transport mechanism. The esterification of substances will increase their lipopholic abilities, and thus esterified creatine will use fat more efficiently to permeate the cell wall and exert its effects upon cellular function than its unesterified creatine monohydrate counterpart.

This means, simply, that not only will dosage requirements be lower, but the absorption of esterified creatine will be increased and the infamous "creatine bloat" will be eliminated!

Who needs it and what are some symptoms of deficiency?

Creatine Ethyl Ester can benefit persons of all ages, as it displays the same benefits as regular creatine monohydrate. Many multiple sclerosis patients are classified as creatine non-responders, but with the improved absorption seen with CEE this may not be the case.

Is Creatine Ethyl Ester real?

Much controversy has been generated over creatine ethyl ester. Companies and individuals with a financial interest in promoting creatine monohydrate products have attempted to discredit creatine ethyl ester. Some companies have even gone so far as to commission laboratory reports that show that creatine ethyl ester is not real.

Included with this page is one such report, and also included are two COA's - certificates of analysis - proving that creatine ethyl ester is real. These are included so that you, the consumer, can make up your own mind - so that you can base your choices upon the power of information.

The one report that states that creatine ethyl ester is fake was commissioned by an industry company with an interest in discrediting creatine ethyl ester. The two certificates of analysis included show that CEE is real and was done on raw source product and conducted by people with no financial interest in the promotion of creatine ethyl ester.

The esterification of creatine is chemically possible and not hard to conceive. Those who claim that CEE is fake are denying obvious science and are cheating the consumer.

To view these reports click here!

How much should be taken? Are there any side effects?

3-6 G daily

No side effects have been reported in scientific literature.

REFERENCES

1. Racette SB. Creatine supplementation and athletic performance. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2003 Oct;33(10):615-21.

2. Kreider, R.B., 1999. Dietary supplements and the promotion of muscle growth with resistance exercise. Sports Medicine 27:97-110.

3. Becque, M.D., et al. 2000. Effects of oral creatine supplementation on muscular strength and body composition. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 32: 654-658.

4. Ingwal JS, Weiner CD, Morales MF, Davis E, Stockdale FE: Specificity of creatine in the control of muscle protein synthesis. J Cell Biol 63:145-151, 1974.

5. Rawson ES, Volek JS. Effects of creatine supplementation and resistance training on muscle strength and weightlifting performance. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Nov;17(4):822-31.

6. Kambis KW, Pizzedaz SK. Short-term creatine supplementation improves maximum quadriceps contraction in women. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2003 Mar;13(1):87-96.

7. Gill ND, Hall RD, Blazevich AJ. Creatine serum is not as effective as creatine powder for improving cycle sprint performance in competitive male team-sport athletes. J Strength Cond Res. 2004 May;18(2):272-5.

8. Rawson, E.S., et al. 1999. Effects of 30 days of creatine ingestion in older men. European Journal of Applied Physiology 80: 139-144.

9. Sosin D.M., Sniezek J.E., Thurman D.J.. Incidence of mild and moderate brain injury in the United States, 1991. Brain Inj 1996 Jan;10(1):47-54.

You're definitely misguided and extremely gullible. And yes I know and train hundreds of athletes that have taken creatine.

One of many studies? That is NOT a study! You simply copied an article written on a web site that sells creatine ester. Do you understand the difference between a study and an advertisement? That's why you are misguided. You believe that crap. It's chock full of inaccuracies and outright fallacies. The guy who wrote that article doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. And you are getting your education from him.

Notice none of the references from that article cite a single study on creatine ester. Why is that? I'll tell you - there are NO studies on creatine ester. How can you say creatine ester is great and cite creatine monohydrate studies as proof? You're punch drunk.

Creatine ester is a bogus product and all the claims made for it are false. And you are a gullible sucker.

creatine does jack shiat for me, i'm a non responder oh well

creatine is a substance that is not always a benefit toall... i often get severe bloat and or gastric distress from the stuff and i think it has a lot do with quality of supplement. BillPhillps used to publish a free guide onsupplements from eas corp, gave a lot of advice that helped me, that is a personal insight not a money making testimonial... but eas products always seemed to cause the least distress to me creatine always made my fat % jump seriously high, i belive that was from the water retntion and that could cause lots o problems... also my boidy fat scale is allegedly 1to 3 % off that is not that great unless you are realscintific but it is a fair guideline for body fat %. buyer beware water test is best but do what you can afford

hehe is it possible to get a body like jaun claude van damm or bruce lee or silvesterstalone :Por are this guys fuild with anabola :P

Just thought I would put my two cents in, since I have been using creatine since I was 15... 8 long years ago. I started out taking the good old creatine monohydrate, which you had to drink a juice with to get it to stick to the muscles and absorb properly. But technology has changed, and so has creatine, and I have yet to find one person who has used CELLTECH and not gotten great gains with it, both strength and speed. And Im not quoting anyone here or anything, Im just stating facts from years and years of basically living in a gym, and watching my father train, who was the first American to weigh under 250 pounds to bench 500 pounds at 50 years old. I preach 3 things.. creatine, protein, and ephreda. However, my dad has been messing around with NO2, and Ive known some other guys who have expericanced great gains with it. And after I get use to living off no sleep because of my little girl.. I think Im going to experiment with it, and I will make sure to keep people in here informed with the results.

same here Luke, it's not like i gathered a bunch of articles and started posting it for shits and giggles -- i use this shit too! I dont know a body builder who doesnt use a form of creatine right now

exacally, I dont reawlly know one great athlete who isn't using some form of it. People lie to say they don't use it because its not natural, but you can tell when a guy is on creatine, and you sure as hell can tell when someone starts juicing, even if its something cheap like D-BOL or DECA.

Ive been caught up in the constant advertisment on Boxing Monthly, that being " Dorian Yates approved" CNP products

and as Hatton says " I am stronger, fasterand fitter, Why? I use CNP Products ;)"

So what form of Creatine is this , Ester ???

Ok -- dont read those bullshit advertisements or anything sold by a "pro bb-er" pro BBers dont are the most genetically gifted beings on earth and on top of that chemically enhanced.

www.trueprotein.com probably has the best prices on Creatine Ethyl Ester or Monohydrate. Most people who have used both -- will ultimately tell you CEE is better. People who have been known to be "non-responders" will have a good chance of responding to CEE

Dose Creatine Ester create more ATP ( adrnosine di-phosphate) in your muscles for more Fuel.

Also Im not looking to build up on my muscles, im already Beef ;D :P

No, im just looking for alround better Fitness, I would not be using ester for weights or anything like that, but more long distance runs, Bag Work, Circuit Training ( wich would be of Press -ups Squat thrusts ect ect...) .

Also doseester buffer laxtic Acid Bulid-ip ???

Dont want to gain mass? thats fine, dont up your protein than.

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Originally Posted by Joe_Ice

Dont want to gain mass? thats fine, dont up your protein than.

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Like bread and S**t ???

But If Creatine maes you faster, I wouldnt mind trying it. O0

bread doesnt have that much protein in it- - its not a great carb either, i wou ldnt eat it often...

just about everything in your post is wrong guided joe ice.

**you do not need 15grams of mono daily, all you need is 3-5grams a day for mono
**creatine ethyl ester hasnt been experimented with as much as mono and noon knows how safe it really is.
**all that 100% absorbtion is BS, i havent and none of my buddys havent gotten any results fro CEE, but great results from mono
**If your gonna say High GI carbohydrate , dont confuse people and use more details and say, Dextrose Sugar, which is a the opposite and the lowest GI, the best way to skipe insulin without killing the creatine

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Originally Posted by Joe_Ice

Dont want to gain mass? thats fine, dont up your protein than.

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what the hell is wrong with you man, if you dunno your shit, just stop tryin to give advice. dont up your protein?? just because protein is the builder doesnt mean taking in protein will give you mass. protein is a must for a healthy diet, whats gonna repair you and recover you?

and it depends on the type of bread you eat , joeice, not every bread is bad carb

Quite the contrary. Whole grain bread is an excelent source of carbs, vitamins, minerals etc.

alright, aside from the argument here, ive been thinking about using creatine for a while now, but because of sports training and not enough time to really hit the weights im waiting until summer. since i am a runner, i dont want to water weight that usually does come along with creatine using. is there a good way thats known by you guys to get rid of the water weight, or will my running 5x a week do it just fine?

white bread is bad it makes you blouted and its has bad carbs , if you want to build muscle u have to eat proteins thats just the way it is :P his not lying :P

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Originally Posted by danne__

white bread is bad it makes you blouted and its has bad carbs  , if you want to build muscle u have to eat proteins thats just the way it is :P his not lying :P

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you can forget 'bad carbs', if you want to gain muscle you need an excess of energy to what you have used. White bread dosn't contain 'bad carbohydrates', just fewer than brown bread does.

you need a high amount of protien and carbs to gain muscle, you can't keep fat off and make large gains at the same time.

im not 100%sure but i think it has fast carbs=bad anyways of course u need fat but not bad fat , fats from omega 3 or flax seeds... anyways

Besides the fact that you DO need carbs, take a look at the following page and look for the term "whole grain". There's more in life than just carbs, fat and protein.

http://www.rossboxing.com/thegym/thegym6.htm

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Originally Posted by danne__

im not 100%sure but i think it has fast carbs=bad anyways of course u need fat but not bad fat , fats from omega 3 or flax seeds... anyways

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you mean saturated, unstaturated and polyunstaturated fat. Only unsaturated fat is seen as healthy, omega 3 is just a type of unsaturaed fat, normally come from vegetables.

get outta here with your nutrition fads... :P ;)

i've read that creatine is bad for the liver
this would be bad for any boxer
if we're constantly working on our abs to build a stronger shield for our livers
then why would we contradict that effort by taking creatine to weaken the livers?

Doesn't quiet work like that and the abdominal don't really protect the livers at all. I don't think it has much to do with the way the liver tissue absorbs blows, more just its ability to metabolise and store different nutrients.

What a lot of people forget is that Creatine is a substance that natural occurs in all humans and animals, our bodies produce it by breaking down different types of carbohydrates in our liver.

To be honest little is know to how much taking concentrated creatine does compared to a 'natural' diet of lean red meat, chicken and various types of carbohydrates, whilst it has been proven that there is a performance increase normally found in people who's diets are lacking, it is not known how much of this is a placebo effect (obviously not 100% of it... I won't deny creatine works)

anyone know how to gain creatine levels in the body naturally???

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Originally Posted by 1magine

i've read that creatine is bad for the liver
this would be bad for any boxer
if we're constantly working on our abs to build a stronger shield for our livers
then why would we contradict that effort by taking creatine to weaken the livers?

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- I think that you mean as creatine is in a chemical format the liver must process this. It would be a minimal effect to the liver say compared to taking any course of steriod. If you were really worried about taking creatine and your liver then drinking plenty of water and taking liquid milk thistle would act as a very solid base.

anyone know how to gain creatine levels in the body naturally???

> Eat more steak! Creatine is found naturally in red meat.

I personally haven't seen any major benifits from taking creatine, but that said, I have a friend who thought that it was the best thing since sliced bread....

Not sure if many pro boxer take creatine.....?