Toney Rahman: why a TKO was the right call

By William Dettloff of The Ring Magazine


"As dissatisfying as was James Toney’s victory over Hasim Rahman, it was exactly right to call it a TKO rather than a no-contest. Why? Rahman chose not to fight anymore; that makes him the loser. If the ringside doctor said the cut was too bad for the fight to continue (it wasn’t), then a no-decision would have been the right call.


That wasn’t the case. Rahman had the same look on his face that he did when Evander Holyfield made him look like he had a Lincoln Navigator on his forehead. The look said: “Get me out of here.” If a fighter surrenders, he loses. I know that’s not what the rules say. The rules are wrong."

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Originally Posted by lance Uppercut

By William Dettloff of The Ring Magazine


"As dissatisfying as was James Toney’s victory over Hasim Rahman, it was exactly right to call it a TKO rather than a no-contest. Why? Rahman chose not to fight anymore; that makes him the loser. If the ringside doctor said the cut was too bad for the fight to continue (it wasn’t), then a no-decision would have been the right call.


That wasn’t the case. Rahman had the same look on his face that he did when Evander Holyfield made him look like he had a Lincoln Navigator on his forehead. The look said: “Get me out of here.” If a fighter surrenders, he loses. I know that’s not what the rules say. The rules are wrong."

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Yeah I read after the fight that Rahman said he couldn't continue so technically the decision was correct even if wrong in the eyes of fans. I have not seen the fight but if that report I read was correct then the decision is technically correct. Right or wrong i guess.

Having watched the fight a few times more I couldnt take anything away from Toney. He came to fight and Rahman did wuss out. I initially thought the decision questionable but on reflection have no issues with Toney taking the win. Rahman gave himself away in the post fight interviews.

Yeah if a fighter says he can't continue then the decision has to go that way i guess.

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Originally Posted by lance Uppercut

By William Dettloff of The Ring Magazine


"As dissatisfying as was James Toney’s victory over Hasim Rahman, it was exactly right to call it a TKO rather than a no-contest. Why? Rahman chose not to fight anymore; that makes him the loser. If the ringside doctor said the cut was too bad for the fight to continue (it wasn’t), then a no-decision would have been the right call.


That wasn’t the case. Rahman had the same look on his face that he did when Evander Holyfield made him look like he had a Lincoln Navigator on his forehead. The look said: “Get me out of here.” If a fighter surrenders, he loses. I know that’s not what the rules say. The rules are wrong."

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I thought the Holyfield fight should have been a no-contest. I think they ruled the swelling came from a punch and it came from Holyfield's forehead. There's no way that fight could have continued.

I saw a several things;

- Toney dictated the pace which was way to fast for Rahman
- Toney was hitting Rahman with the harder punches and Hasim could not get any consistent leather on Toney...
- The cut further rattled Rahman and he just wanted out.

The controversy gave Hasim Rahman a great argument and even left doubt which is what will get Rahman another high level fight...He did the smart thing for his career because Hasim Rahman was going to get stopped if this fight went on...

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Originally Posted by Killface

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Originally Posted by lance Uppercut

By William Dettloff of The Ring Magazine


"As dissatisfying as was James Toney’s victory over Hasim Rahman, it was exactly right to call it a TKO rather than a no-contest. Why? Rahman chose not to fight anymore; that makes him the loser. If the ringside doctor said the cut was too bad for the fight to continue (it wasn’t), then a no-decision would have been the right call.


That wasn’t the case. Rahman had the same look on his face that he did when Evander Holyfield made him look like he had a Lincoln Navigator on his forehead. The look said: “Get me out of here.” If a fighter surrenders, he loses. I know that’s not what the rules say. The rules are wrong."

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I thought the Holyfield fight should have been a no-contest. I think they ruled the swelling came from a punch and it came from Holyfield's forehead. There's no way that fight could have continued.

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The holyfield fight was ruled an accidental head butt, but it was after 4 rounds were complete so they went to the score cards.

It was a complete miscall. I think people should examine what happened on the same night on ESPN2 and get a bit of a reality check.

If the first priority of every commission is fighter safety, then the California Commission failed in a very big way. Rahman did not say "I can't continue", he said "I can't see". NONE of us know if this is true or not. What we do know is that the cut was caused by headbutt.

Assume this is true, because if you are going to value fighter safety as number one priority, you have to. Then OF COURSE he has to stop the fight. It's a matter of fighter safety, you can't have a fight with a guy competing with sight in only one eye.

What do we want? Rahman to say he is perfectly fine and risk his health in doing so? The California Commission just penalized Rahman for telling the doctor he can't see. If it was true, which you have to assume it is, then they should all be ashamed of themselves. So what happens next time a fighter genuinely can't see?

"No doc, I'm fine"

Ridiculous. Toney was well on his way to winning the fight but that is no justification. That's my take on it anyways.

The answer that Rahman gave the doctor when asked did he want to continue was "I ain't fighting with one eye."

The doctor never implied the cut would merit a stoppage.

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Originally Posted by amat

It was a complete miscall. I think people should examine what happened on the same night on ESPN2 and get a bit of a reality check.

If the first priority of every commission is fighter safety, then the California Commission failed in a very big way. Rahman did not say "I can't continue", he said "I can't see". NONE of us know if this is true or not. What we do know is that the cut was caused by headbutt.

Assume this is true, because if you are going to value fighter safety as number one priority, you have to. Then OF COURSE he has to stop the fight. It's a matter of fighter safety, you can't have a fight with a guy competing with sight in only one eye.

What do we want? Rahman to say he is perfectly fine and risk his health in doing so? The California Commission just penalized Rahman for telling the doctor he can't see. If it was true, which you have to assume it is, then they should all be ashamed of themselves. So what happens next time a fighter genuinely can't see?

"No doc, I'm fine"

Ridiculous. Toney was well on his way to winning the fight but that is no justification. That's my take on it anyways.

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Yes good points. however it depends on what he said i suppose. I've heard conflicting reports on that. You say he said he didn't say he can't continue and others say he did. I don't know as i still haven't seen the fight. If he did then no prob's if he didn't then it gets very technical.

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Originally Posted by amat

It was a complete miscall. I think people should examine what happened on the same night on ESPN2 and get a bit of a reality check.

If the first priority of every commission is fighter safety, then the California Commission failed in a very big way. Rahman did not say "I can't continue", he said "I can't see". NONE of us know if this is true or not. What we do know is that the cut was caused by headbutt.

Assume this is true, because if you are going to value fighter safety as number one priority, you have to. Then OF COURSE he has to stop the fight. It's a matter of fighter safety, you can't have a fight with a guy competing with sight in only one eye.

What do we want? Rahman to say he is perfectly fine and risk his health in doing so? The California Commission just penalized Rahman for telling the doctor he can't see. If it was true, which you have to assume it is, then they should all be ashamed of themselves. So what happens next time a fighter genuinely can't see?

"No doc, I'm fine"

Ridiculous. Toney was well on his way to winning the fight but that is no justification. That's my take on it anyways.

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Your argument is ridiculous and it gives any fighter an "out" when getting beaten up...The fact is a medical expert examined the cut and ruled there was no physical danger due to the cut to Hasim Rahman...Hasim Rahman decided he did not want to fight any longer so he quit, pretty simple...

I have it here on my computer. The doctor comes over, asks about the cut, and it goes like this.

Cornerman: That was a headbutt wasn't it?
Doctor: Yes I believe it was
Rahman: I can't see, it's not clear.

Fight was immediately waved off.

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Originally Posted by The Promoter

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Originally Posted by amat

It was a complete miscall. I think people should examine what happened on the same night on ESPN2 and get a bit of a reality check.

If the first priority of every commission is fighter safety, then the California Commission failed in a very big way. Rahman did not say "I can't continue", he said "I can't see". NONE of us know if this is true or not. What we do know is that the cut was caused by headbutt.

Assume this is true, because if you are going to value fighter safety as number one priority, you have to. Then OF COURSE he has to stop the fight. It's a matter of fighter safety, you can't have a fight with a guy competing with sight in only one eye.

What do we want? Rahman to say he is perfectly fine and risk his health in doing so? The California Commission just penalized Rahman for telling the doctor he can't see. If it was true, which you have to assume it is, then they should all be ashamed of themselves. So what happens next time a fighter genuinely can't see?

"No doc, I'm fine"

Ridiculous. Toney was well on his way to winning the fight but that is no justification. That's my take on it anyways.

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Your argument is ridiculous and it gives any fighter an "out" when getting beaten up...The fact is a medical expert examined the cut and ruled there was no physical danger due to the cut to Hasim Rahman...Hasim Rahman decided he did not want to fight any longer so he quit, pretty simple...

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No, you're wrong. The medical expert was told by Rahman that he couldn't see, and that was the fight. There was NO examination of the cut. The doctor was on the post fight broadcast and clearly stated that. He did not rule that there was no physical danger because he didn't rule anything at all. He heard that and stopped it before ever examining the cut.

It doesn't matter if Rahman was using it as an "out" or not. Either way he wasn't fighting. Anyone who saw the fight knows who was winning and who was going to win, but it doesn't make this right. Commissions are supposed to have fighter safety first, unless they want to call Rahman an outright liar, this was a terrible ruling.

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Originally Posted by amat

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Originally Posted by The Promoter

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Originally Posted by amat

It was a complete miscall. I think people should examine what happened on the same night on ESPN2 and get a bit of a reality check.

If the first priority of every commission is fighter safety, then the California Commission failed in a very big way. Rahman did not say "I can't continue", he said "I can't see". NONE of us know if this is true or not. What we do know is that the cut was caused by headbutt.

Assume this is true, because if you are going to value fighter safety as number one priority, you have to. Then OF COURSE he has to stop the fight. It's a matter of fighter safety, you can't have a fight with a guy competing with sight in only one eye.

What do we want? Rahman to say he is perfectly fine and risk his health in doing so? The California Commission just penalized Rahman for telling the doctor he can't see. If it was true, which you have to assume it is, then they should all be ashamed of themselves. So what happens next time a fighter genuinely can't see?

"No doc, I'm fine"

Ridiculous. Toney was well on his way to winning the fight but that is no justification. That's my take on it anyways.

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Your argument is ridiculous and it gives any fighter an "out" when getting beaten up...The fact is a medical expert examined the cut and ruled there was no physical danger due to the cut to Hasim Rahman...Hasim Rahman decided he did not want to fight any longer so he quit, pretty simple...

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No, you're wrong. The medical expert was told by Rahman that he couldn't see, and that was the fight. There was NO examination of the cut. The doctor was on the post fight broadcast and clearly stated that. He did not rule that there was no physical danger because he didn't rule anything at all. He heard that and stopped it before ever examining the cut.

It doesn't matter if Rahman was using it as an "out" or not. Either way he wasn't fighting. Anyone who saw the fight knows who was winning and who was going to win, but it doesn't make this right. Commissions are supposed to have fighter safety first, unless they want to call Rahman an outright liar, this was a terrible ruling.

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Your making my point, maybe Rahman couldn't see because of being knocked silly as he was during the round, didn't you see him staggered toward the end of the round? It was determined that the cut was not severe enough to stop the fight, hell the blood flow didn't even warrant the ref to stop the action. Hasim maintained that "blood flow" was the reason he could not see, watch the post fight interview...the Doctor determined that the cut did not present a danger to the fighter but it was Rahman that said he "couldn't see" for whatever reason maybe a detached retina, brain damage, or whatever, all valid reasons to quit....but the cut was not reason enough to stop the fight.

Fact is, that Rahman got a cut from an unintentional head but, the cut itself was not reason enough to stop the fight...much in the same manner if a fighter hurts their hand, shoulder, knee, etc...they cannot expect the fight to go to the scorecards because they want it that way...

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Originally Posted by amat

Rahman did not say "I can't continue", he said "I can't see".

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When you are making this comment, unsolicited, to a ringside physician, there is no difference between to the two phrases. They both mean the same thing:"please stop this fight"

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Originally Posted by lance Uppercut

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Originally Posted by amat

Rahman did not say "I can't continue", he said "I can't see".

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When you are making this comment, unsolicited, to a ringside physician, there is no difference between to the two phrases. They both mean the same thing:"please stop this fight"

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So what happens when someone really does have blood flow that prevents them from seeing? Are they not allowed to say that? What happens when the corner stops the blood before the doctor gets there and he can't tell that it's going into his eye? Is a fighter to be sent out to get pummeled with punches he can't see because he doesn't want to speak up in the corner in fear of getting a TKO.

If you are going to have rules, you should be forced to adhere to them. California has a tremendous commission, I hope they change this result. It's the only fair thing to do. I'm not denying that Toney was the far superior fighter or even that Rahman was looking for an out, but rules are rules and if you aren't going to go by the book then there is no sense in having the book at all.

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Originally Posted by The Promoter

Your making my point, maybe Rahman couldn't see because of being knocked silly as he was during the round, didn't you see him staggered toward the end of the round? It was determined that the cut was not severe enough to stop the fight, hell the blood flow didn't even warrant the ref to stop the action. Hasim maintained that "blood flow" was the reason he could not see, watch the post fight interview...the Doctor determined that the cut did not present a danger to the fighter but it was Rahman that said he "couldn't see" for whatever reason maybe a detached retina, brain damage, or whatever, all valid reasons to quit....but the cut was not reason enough to stop the fight.

Fact is, that Rahman got a cut from an unintentional head but, the cut itself was not reason enough to stop the fight...much in the same manner if a fighter hurts their hand, shoulder, knee, etc...they cannot expect the fight to go to the scorecards because they want it that way...

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Of course I saw him stagger forward. I know Toney was the better fighter. But who made the judgement that the cut wasn't enough to stop the fight? You? Because the doctor didn't, I have the whole broadcast right on my hard drive and watched the entire thing before I made my first post in this topic.

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Originally Posted by amat

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Originally Posted by The Promoter

Your making my point, maybe Rahman couldn't see because of being knocked silly as he was during the round, didn't you see him staggered toward the end of the round? It was determined that the cut was not severe enough to stop the fight, hell the blood flow didn't even warrant the ref to stop the action. Hasim maintained that "blood flow" was the reason he could not see, watch the post fight interview...the Doctor determined that the cut did not present a danger to the fighter but it was Rahman that said he "couldn't see" for whatever reason maybe a detached retina, brain damage, or whatever, all valid reasons to quit....but the cut was not reason enough to stop the fight.

Fact is, that Rahman got a cut from an unintentional head but, the cut itself was not reason enough to stop the fight...much in the same manner if a fighter hurts their hand, shoulder, knee, etc...they cannot expect the fight to go to the scorecards because they want it that way...

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Of course I saw him stagger forward. I know Toney was the better fighter. But who made the judgement that the cut wasn't enough to stop the fight? You? Because the doctor didn't, I have the whole broadcast right on my hard drive and watched the entire thing before I made my first post in this topic.

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I watched the fight several times as well...The ref saw the open cut and blood flow and felt it did not even warrant stopping the action and having the doctor evaluate...The doctor between rounds as required, looked long and hard at Rahman in his corner and it was only Rahman that raised any desire to have the fight stopped...face it, there was little blood flow and the cut was not deep enough to warrant concern from the ref or doctor...now if there was extensive damage that could not be seen then Rahman quitting was the right call "I can't see" is a lot more serious than "the blood is getting in my eye", Hasim then could make a medical case that the fight should have gone to the cards or demand a rematch...As there has been no medical reason submitted for Rahman's decision I have to stand with HE QUIT...

The doctor did not take a long and hard look, he had JUST stepped on the apron when Rahman said that.

Like I said, Rahman very well could have been looking for an out, but that doesn't justify just completely throwing the rule book out the window imo.

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Originally Posted by amat

The doctor did not take a long and hard look, he had JUST stepped on the apron when Rahman said that.

Like I said, Rahman very well could have been looking for an out, but that doesn't justify just completely throwing the rule book out the window imo.

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Well, if this ruling does anything, it will persuade opportunistic fighters against quiting after an accidental foul.

Ok so lets us just allow all the head butting hell if you can get a tko out of it should be allowed i can not belive what i am hearing from you people.

Look seems pretty simple to me Rock man was cut by a head butt and it was stop but it was not enough rounds to go to the cards there for is a no contest so they should either fight again or just leave it alone i can not beilve people would be so upset with a nc its the rules always have been.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Look seems pretty simple to me Rock man was cut by a head butt and it was stop but it was not enough rounds to go to the cards there for is a no contest so they should either fight again or just leave it alone i can not beilve people would be so upset with a nc its the rules always have been.

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You joker...its not that simple and even if explaining to means turning in circles...here you go:

During the rnd Rahman was cut by an accidental head butt...in between the rnds the doc wants to take a look at the cut and before that Rahman starts complaining that he can't see or doesn't want to fight with one eye and the doc waves it off...that means that the doc stopped it(or advised the ref to stop it)because of Rahmans complaing that he is to handicaped to go on not because of the cut...thats the difference...
It would be similiar if Gatti told the doc that his hand is broken again in I think it was the Damgaard fight,but Gatti and his corner kept it to themselves instead of whining around(I'm sorry but I really disslike Rahman;D...)and won the fight...

I seriously doubt that the doc would have stopped the fight because of the cut...at least at that point...

The cut was caused by headbutt. The doctor looked at the cut from outside the ring. Rahman said he couldn't see. Both fighters did sweet dick all the first 2 rounds. Toney had a slight advantage after the headbutt. Rahman couldn't see. To say that Toney dominated is bs. There was no clear winner. Rahman got hit more after the headbutt. Since he kept pawing at the cut, you have to assume he was having problems with it. if the cut didn't happen then the fight was cunt hair close.

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Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer

cunt hair close.

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Classy.

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Originally Posted by amat

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Originally Posted by lance Uppercut

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Originally Posted by amat

Rahman did not say "I can't continue", he said "I can't see".

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When you are making this comment, unsolicited, to a ringside physician, there is no difference between to the two phrases. They both mean the same thing:"please stop this fight"

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So what happens when someone really does have blood flow that prevents them from seeing? Are they not allowed to say that? What happens when the corner stops the blood before the doctor gets there and he can't tell that it's going into his eye? Is a fighter to be sent out to get pummeled with punches he can't see because he doesn't want to speak up in the corner in fear of getting a TKO.

If you are going to have rules, you should be forced to adhere to them. California has a tremendous commission, I hope they change this result. It's the only fair thing to do. I'm not denying that Toney was the far superior fighter or even that Rahman was looking for an out, but rules are rules and if you aren't going to go by the book then there is no sense in having the book at all.

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Look, a corner can always stop a fight or they can have the doctor look at the injury and the doctor can recommend to the ref to stop the fight. That wasn't the case as Hasim Rahman said he "could not fight" period. Even if what you say is true and the doctor did not make his evaluation why didn't Rahman's corner ask for an evaluation? why didn't they petition the ref who is the only person according to the WBC, IBF, WBA and WBO that can stop a fight? Face it Rahman quit and the rules were absolutely adhered to...Maybe you and Rahman should read the rules and understand them before you make wild acusations that they were not upheld...

Even Rahman's argument that they should have gone to the scorecards was wrong as 4 rounds weren't completed...Rahman's excuses are tired and now boring, His complaining that about Tua hitting after the bell, Maskaev hitting on the break, etc... He was clearly getting schooled, bailed out and is now using a bogus argument that you are buying "hook, line and sinker" ...this guy goes on and on and this C level fighter should just be forgotten rather than given any more chances...It's amazing what one lucky punch did for the man's career...