Thinking out loud......Speed.

Developing speed has long been a problematic area.
Combining weights and movement doesn't really bear fruit, in fact it often results in injury and the depreciation of the muscle tissues that are being targeted.
This was idea traditionally used with the fusion of weights and shadowboxing with them in hand. Bad idea.

However, the logic remains, to increase the fast twitch muscle's size and endurance. This must be done in co-ordination with the commitment of perfect technique to muscle memory, whilst maintaining optimum posture, a good centre line and remaining relaxed.

I feel the best way to approach this is to train the appropriate muscles as a seperate session. Weights may be helpful when done correctly but they will not lend themselves as their very nature differs from that of punching, unless done in very high volumes, very quickly. Natural exertion may be the most beneficial idea.

Following that or perhaps preceeding that another session, the muscles must be taught what their function is. This less exerting stage will be relaxed repetition, ensuring the smooth co-ordination of the skeletal and musclulo systems.

Finally an enormous amount of brain training will be required. If you don't throw when your meant to speed is useless, so the mind must memorise the technique, the timing and the type punch to throw.



This thread is probably useless to you guys, I'm just coming up with ideas for myself....

I have been wanting to improve upon my speed for a while and found a few ways which have worked for me (contradicts your weights Donny)

• Elastic rope forcing my relxed arm out quicker than normally possible (sprinters use this when they get a partner to run ahead and use the elasticity to make their muscles move quicker)
• Alternation between no and small weights while shadow boxing
• Training to brain so that my hands don't "over run the brain", more like a drummers training.
• Plyo training for arms

Elastic rope I think I have talked a lot about in pretty much every post I've talked about speed ;). But i'm sorry going to say it again, my hands get quicker even after a weeks worth of doing this so i'm going to keep saying it until you guys get onto it (like tabatas).

The hand weights like Donny said can teach you bad form, but to be honest I think this would only have a dramatic effect if your not correcting yourself in the process. Personally I do 20 seconds of the desired punch without weights, then 20 seconds with a small weight and then 20 seconds without weights again. Thats a set for me and done inbetween sets of the elastic rope. I think you have to make up your own mind with this one though as there are quite a few risks. Although I know the Soviets pretty much invented this technique and seemed to work pretty well for them.

I've recently been looking into how drummers train to improve their handspeed, because some of them have awesome co-ordination and speed I guessed I could learn something from them. Anyways what I stumbled upon was that they use patterns, which increase in speed as the exercise continues in order to trick the brain. I converted them over to jabs and straights in order to see if it makes a difference, only time will tell I guess, but i'm hoping it will make a difference.

I'll certainly agree on the elastic rope, plyo's and you're thoughts on drumers....brain training.

But weights I feel should be done seperate as they don't work correct muscle memeory, given the fact that with a weight in your hand it won't be the same as a punch without weight.

I'm looking into the development of fast twitch muscles, the shoulders are easy and exercises we ewould commonly do.

Isometrics are also excellent

When you come over Don, Ill show you some interesting things. But you will have to sign a bit of paper ;D

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Originally Posted by Scrap

When you come over Don, Ill show you some interesting things. But you will have to sign a bit of paper ;D

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Thats no problem at all:)
Looking forward to it.

Interesting idea about patterns Salty.

A coach from a previous gym used to smack the left side of my guard with one pad and get me to throw my right cross as a reaction to it.

I'm guessing a lot of us have done work on the mits with coaches getting us to react in a particular way to a particular cue and I guess it does speed you up marginally after it has been drilled into you.

I do think it has to be something that will flow though. My most recent coaches also got me to punch out after hitting my guard.

I didn't like that so much because they wanted me to punch with the same side of my guard which was just hit and it felt stunted and restricted by the blow - like I had to fight through their force and rotate my shoulders against it before I could begin to throw the punch - no where near as fast as the other hand!

You know...I trained hard for months, and got the results I was looking for, power wise and with cardio. Now for atleast the last month I've hardly trained outside of the gym, but have sparred regularly. The whole time working on technique and also telling myself to throw more and faster.

I am not sure the reason, but do feel and it has been backed up by my sparring partners, that I'm hitting faster and it's posing them probs.

Interesting thing, the mind.

If the body knows what to do it performs better those Neurons have got the message. ;D

Lots of stretching will also help. I've noticed that I seem a little quicker on the bag since I've made a habit of stretching more.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Developing speed has long been a problematic area.


Finally an enormous amount of brain training will be required. If you don't throw when your meant to speed is useless, so the mind must memorise the technique, the timing and the type punch to throw.

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More thoughts :o ,Please dont ,that will just hold you into where you are at, let it all go, its time to be free.

Thoughts are far from freedom, unless your thinking your way into or out of a situation and you can only do that and have the time to do that in a ring if your really enjoying yourself. The zone is just over that hill.



I honestly think some peoples thoughts get in the way of their speed and reaction timing .Sadly their natural abilties also start to die back with trying to be correct in each and every situation etc..
Eventually you have to drop what you learned, stop trying, stop the thoughts completly and just throw automatic and totally free; VIA having faith that you have done your ground work more than anyone else so you come out of it with the finesse and the strength and the timing built up off of your past hard work. Thats faith in your ability.

A bird doesnt think "Oh theres a cliff down there over to the right when Im real close to it, Im going to turn left real fast just before I hit it and get total speed up the face", It just does it when the time is right.
Thats the difference between fighting right in the zone and fighting to everything you know safley.

Maybe just spar farting around for a while,snappy, fast as you can semi contact with a good mate, so there is no egos getting involved, then you can play in there and start to have fun again then your natural speed will flow unhindered.

I can feel you want it :).

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Originally Posted by Salty

I've recently been looking into how drummers train to improve their handspeed, because some of them have awesome co-ordination and speed I guessed I could learn something from them. Anyways what I stumbled upon was that they use patterns, which increase in speed as the exercise continues in order to trick the brain. I converted them over to jabs and straights in order to see if it makes a difference, only time will tell I guess, but i'm hoping it will make a difference.

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Thats brilliant mate,patterns to trick the mind ! 10/10.

I used to drum no very well ,snare for an Irish millitary style band actually..

But I had the thought go through my head that to hit in "cluffs" or on the off beat completly during a fight with the foowork to back it, would disrupt timing and may eventually allow for a punch that came out of left field as an unseen finisher on their reaction tothe change.:-\ .

;D like your idea better..

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Originally Posted by Youngblood

You know...I trained hard for months, and got the results I was looking for, power wise and with cardio. Now for atleast the last month I've hardly trained outside of the gym, but have sparred regularly. The whole time working on technique and also telling myself to throw more and faster.

I am not sure the reason, but do feel and it has been backed up by my sparring partners, that I'm hitting faster and it's posing them probs.

Interesting thing, the mind.

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Found a quote from the book I just bought which fits your description mate and thought i'd share...

"Speed strength increased by an average of 18 - 25% following a 10 day rest from intense specialised strength training. Such increases may occur due to a super-compensatory restoration period that follows strength work."

@ Andre, thanks going to keep it up and let you know how I go. So far I'm getting good at the 1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2 pattern will need to start a new one soon I think.

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Originally Posted by Andre

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Developing speed has long been a problematic area.


Finally an enormous amount of brain training will be required. If you don't throw when your meant to speed is useless, so the mind must memorise the technique, the timing and the type punch to throw.

---

More thoughts :o ,Please dont ,that will just hold you into where you are at, let it all go, its time to be free.

Thoughts are far from freedom, unless your thinking your way into or out of a situation and you can only do that and have the time to do that in a ring if your really enjoying yourself. The zone is just over that hill.



I honestly think some peoples thoughts get in the way of their speed and reaction timing .Sadly their natural abilties also start to die back with trying to be correct in each and every situation etc..
Eventually you have to drop what you learned, stop trying, stop the thoughts completly and just throw automatic and totally free; VIA having faith that you have done your ground work more than anyone else so you come out of it with the finesse and the strength and the timing built up off of your past hard work. Thats faith in your ability.

A bird doesnt think "Oh theres a cliff down there over to the right when Im real close to it, Im going to turn left real fast just before I hit it and get total speed up the face", It just does it when the time is right.
Thats the difference between fighting right in the zone and fighting to everything you know safley.

Maybe just spar farting around for a while,snappy, fast as you can semi contact with a good mate, so there is no egos getting involved, then you can play in there and start to have fun again then your natural speed will flow unhindered.

I can feel you want it :).

---

Well,
My view is when your a baby, you learn to walk from others. You concentrate and practise, you perfect it and then it becomes your natural pattern of movement.

With my movement I spend periods of time in the gym moving. Corerecting wrong steps and angles. I break it down and do it precisely how It was recommended. Using my mind I commit the actions to muscle memory.

Then when I spar all the hours practise make it a natural movement.
I've commited the movements to muscle memory so I don't have to make a concious effort to move correctly.

It was my thought that with speed, i would get my body moving correctly, 100% correctly and commit those movements to muscle memory.
Then they will occur naturally and faster as they become the routine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salty

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Youngblood

You know...I trained hard for months, and got the results I was looking for, power wise and with cardio. Now for atleast the last month I've hardly trained outside of the gym, but have sparred regularly. The whole time working on technique and also telling myself to throw more and faster.

I am not sure the reason, but do feel and it has been backed up by my sparring partners, that I'm hitting faster and it's posing them probs.

Interesting thing, the mind.

---

Found a quote from the book I just bought which fits your description mate and thought i'd share...

"Speed strength increased by an average of 18 - 25% following a 10 day rest from intense specialised strength training. Such increases may occur due to a super-compensatory restoration period that follows strength work."

@ Andre, thanks going to keep it up and let you know how I go. So far I'm getting good at the 1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2 pattern will need to start a new one soon I think.

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Thanks Salty. That is interesting and actually makes a lot of sense. It really does help back up claims from Scrap and others about the importance of recovery and the benefits of it. It is hard sometimes to get it through my (our) thick skulls that constantly working out without breaks is not the way to go. But I am becoming a believer. So now the question I suppose is how to apply it correctly for mamimum benefit. :headscratch:

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andre

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Developing speed has long been a problematic area.


Finally an enormous amount of brain training will be required. If you don't throw when your meant to speed is useless, so the mind must memorise the technique, the timing and the type punch to throw.

---

More thoughts :o ,Please dont ,that will just hold you into where you are at, let it all go, its time to be free.

Thoughts are far from freedom, unless your thinking your way into or out of a situation and you can only do that and have the time to do that in a ring if your really enjoying yourself. The zone is just over that hill.



I honestly think some peoples thoughts get in the way of their speed and reaction timing .Sadly their natural abilties also start to die back with trying to be correct in each and every situation etc..
Eventually you have to drop what you learned, stop trying, stop the thoughts completly and just throw automatic and totally free; VIA having faith that you have done your ground work more than anyone else so you come out of it with the finesse and the strength and the timing built up off of your past hard work. Thats faith in your ability.

A bird doesnt think "Oh theres a cliff down there over to the right when Im real close to it, Im going to turn left real fast just before I hit it and get total speed up the face", It just does it when the time is right.
Thats the difference between fighting right in the zone and fighting to everything you know safley.

Maybe just spar farting around for a while,snappy, fast as you can semi contact with a good mate, so there is no egos getting involved, then you can play in there and start to have fun again then your natural speed will flow unhindered.

I can feel you want it :).

---

Well,
My view is when your a baby, you learn to walk from others. You concentrate and practise, you perfect it and then it becomes your natural pattern of movement.

With my movement I spend periods of time in the gym moving. Corerecting wrong steps and angles. I break it down and do it precisely how It was recommended. Using my mind I commit the actions to muscle memory.

Then when I spar all the hours practise make it a natural movement.
I've commited the movements to muscle memory so I don't have to make a concious effort to move correctly.

It was my thought that with speed, i would get my body moving correctly, 100% correctly and commit those movements to muscle memory.
Then they will occur naturally and faster as they become the routine.

---

Of course,that is the right pattern, but you want more from it dont you?
After that pattern is learnt it is your time right then; not in some future date.
After you know, you let go and really enjoy yourself,thats not giving anything up or stopping learning its bringing it all together so you can work from right in the middle of any moment good or bad without thought.
Its a mental step to freeing yourself up.
By appreciating all what you got from all the hard work and then enjoying what it brings you to the extent that you can have a ball with it.
Why do you think Rjj could do such amazing things under attack? Of course he learnt to walk before he ran ,he has died in training,sweated in it and broke down in it ,hes stretched and he did all the right things all the right ground work and genetically he had some more, and mentally he had some more. But he also brought all the sums together in his head because he was having a ball with it. He knew the stuff, so he relaxed and became whatever was required at the exact moment and then really enjoyed himself with it in the belife that he was the best he could possibly be and he stood right in it beliving in himself; Thats the mental bit that allows you to loosen up and fight freer and faster than the other guy who also trains as hard and does all the right things just as you do.Even Naz did it; total faith in himself, that set him apart and got him to where he got; Although my bet is he wasnt as learned as you in some areas or maybe dismissed them which isnt the point,but he was free and fast. Its the same as any work bro ,the ones who love their work excell at it and they do it faster and with less effort than all the others around them. We have all got it! Some people always have it within their personality ,they are blessed,(the bastards). Others bring it out of themselves after or during a fall, some others have to give themselves the space to re find it and those ones make the added space by making fun out of it all again. At the end of the day they all become natural at what they do and you can see that they litterally smile and are lit up the whole time. Its freeing .Thats why some people hate to love them cause they hate the smart assed smile and smiling eyes behind the killer ;D .

Been away for a bit and might have missed someone else comment on this but I was reading a health magazine while I was away which decribed a study which found reasonable percentage increases in speed and explosiveness when dynamic stretching was included in the warm up!

Who knew that was one of the reasons Scrap was so into stretching! (well apart from Scrap :))

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Originally Posted by Andre

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by Andre

More thoughts :o ,Please dont ,that will just hold you into where you are at, let it all go, its time to be free.

Thoughts are far from freedom, unless your thinking your way into or out of a situation and you can only do that and have the time to do that in a ring if your really enjoying yourself. The zone is just over that hill.



I honestly think some peoples thoughts get in the way of their speed and reaction timing .Sadly their natural abilties also start to die back with trying to be correct in each and every situation etc..
Eventually you have to drop what you learned, stop trying, stop the thoughts completly and just throw automatic and totally free; VIA having faith that you have done your ground work more than anyone else so you come out of it with the finesse and the strength and the timing built up off of your past hard work. Thats faith in your ability.

A bird doesnt think "Oh theres a cliff down there over to the right when Im real close to it, Im going to turn left real fast just before I hit it and get total speed up the face", It just does it when the time is right.
Thats the difference between fighting right in the zone and fighting to everything you know safley.

Maybe just spar farting around for a while,snappy, fast as you can semi contact with a good mate, so there is no egos getting involved, then you can play in there and start to have fun again then your natural speed will flow unhindered.

I can feel you want it :).

---

Well,
My view is when your a baby, you learn to walk from others. You concentrate and practise, you perfect it and then it becomes your natural pattern of movement.

With my movement I spend periods of time in the gym moving. Corerecting wrong steps and angles. I break it down and do it precisely how It was recommended. Using my mind I commit the actions to muscle memory.

Then when I spar all the hours practise make it a natural movement.
I've commited the movements to muscle memory so I don't have to make a concious effort to move correctly.

It was my thought that with speed, i would get my body moving correctly, 100% correctly and commit those movements to muscle memory.
Then they will occur naturally and faster as they become the routine.

---

Of course,that is the right pattern, but you want more from it dont you?
After that pattern is learnt it is your time right then; not in some future date.
After you know, you let go and really enjoy yourself,thats not giving anything up or stopping learning its bringing it all together so you can work from right in the middle of any moment good or bad without thought.
Its a mental step to freeing yourself up.
By appreciating all what you got from all the hard work and then enjoying what it brings you to the extent that you can have a ball with it.
Why do you think Rjj could do such amazing things under attack? Of course he learnt to walk before he ran ,he has died in training,sweated in it and broke down in it ,hes stretched and he did all the right things all the right ground work and genetically he had some more, and mentally he had some more. But he also brought all the sums together in his head because he was having a ball with it. He knew the stuff, so he relaxed and became whatever was required at the exact moment and then really enjoyed himself with it in the belife that he was the best he could possibly be and he stood right in it beliving in himself; Thats the mental bit that allows you to loosen up and fight freer and faster than the other guy who also trains as hard and does all the right things just as you do.Even Naz did it; total faith in himself, that set him apart and got him to where he got; Although my bet is he wasnt as learned as you in some areas or maybe dismissed them which isnt the point,but he was free and fast. Its the same as any work bro ,the ones who love their work excell at it and they do it faster and with less effort than all the others around them. We have all got it! Some people always have it within their personality ,they are blessed,(the bastards). Others bring it out of themselves after or during a fall, some others have to give themselves the space to re find it and those ones make the added space by making fun out of it all again. At the end of the day they all become natural at what they do and you can see that they litterally smile and are lit up the whole time. Its freeing .Thats why some people hate to love them cause they hate the smart assed smile and smiling eyes behind the killer ;D .

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Thats an excellent post.

I loved it because thats what I believe myself!

Donny it works in anything. I staked my claim as being the best in my business in the southern hemisphere way before I actually was. I listened to a mate one day and he got me thinking and doing so I just climbed the hill and tapped the flag in and made the claim out loud in the right places.
Now I am, because the oppertunity to prove it came my way fast and still does all the time with no advertizing at all.I get all the hard work that others shit themselves over.That has brought frustration as well as hard times actually doing some things but hey; ;D hahahhaa ; or I go crazy by my own design. The whole thing is actually just a big game; we choose to play it and chooce to take some of it way too seriously at times. Being and doing can arise together or we can have them seperatley,you see clearer and have more time to move in the latter.

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Originally Posted by Andre

Donny it works in anything. I staked my claim as being the best in my business in the southern hemisphere way before I actually was. I listened to a mate one day and he got me thinking and doing so I just climbed the hill and tapped the flag in and made the claim out loud in the right places.
Now I am, because the oppertunity to prove it came my way fast and still does all the time with no advertizing at all.I get all the hard work that others shit themselves over.That has brought frustration as well as hard times actually doing some things but hey; ;D hahahhaa ; or I go crazy by my own design. The whole thing is actually just a big game; we choose to play it and chooce to take some of it way too seriously at times. Being and doing can arise together or we can have them seperatley,you see clearer and have more time to move in the latter.

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Cool Andre, I just learned a lot!

I once asked why expierience brought so much "skill and ability."
The reason I was given was "No Fear."
I guess he meant confidence in one's ability, faith in one's self.

In the past year I've applied this. I'm no longer nervous before fights and I get relaxed. I don't get afraid anymore and I find I perform so much better now.

While you can train up speed a bit,with the mits,and the speed bag,the one thing your going to find,is your fast twitch muscles are only going to allow themselves so far,its like in baseball with bat speed,some guys can just flick it out there,and some guys need to concentrate on power,for most humans its either speed or power,but rarely both.

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

While you can train up speed a bit,with the mits,and the speed bag,the one thing your going to find,is your fast twitch muscles are only going to allow themselves so far,its like in baseball with bat speed,some guys can just flick it out there,and some guys need to concentrate on power,for most humans its either speed or power,but rarely both.

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Yeah i notice this too but i don't get it. Maybe when trying to be powerful we tense up too much and maybe when thinking fast we don't follow through enough and try to bring the punch back before it's finished?

Technically i know force is = mass X velocity so in theory speed and power should go together but in reality it seems to take some skill to get it happening!

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by Andre

Donny it works in anything. I staked my claim as being the best in my business in the southern hemisphere way before I actually was. I listened to a mate one day and he got me thinking and doing so I just climbed the hill and tapped the flag in and made the claim out loud in the right places.
Now I am, because the oppertunity to prove it came my way fast and still does all the time with no advertizing at all.I get all the hard work that others shit themselves over.That has brought frustration as well as hard times actually doing some things but hey; ;D hahahhaa ; or I go crazy by my own design. The whole thing is actually just a big game; we choose to play it and chooce to take some of it way too seriously at times. Being and doing can arise together or we can have them seperatley,you see clearer and have more time to move in the latter.

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Cool Andre, I just learned a lot!

I once asked why expierience brought so much "skill and ability."
The reason I was given was "No Fear."
I guess he meant confidence in one's ability, faith in one's self.

In the past year I've applied this. I'm no longer nervous before fights and I get relaxed. I don't get afraid anymore and I find I perform so much better now.

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Fear and nerves is two matters as well, one can be blind and binding the other can help like a hair trigger.

Sounds like you already got the space to work and think freely in the moment or in the zone. (We see so many people in life and fighters) out thinking themselves into a clog up and fixed mindset and not being able to react freely and then worse when the shit hit s the fan ;not be able to even rethink the right way out -so that they can get a space to move the way they need to. The first over thought or over worry; smacks both options clean out of the water.Thats why I think humour about any event or problem. Brings relaxation,and gives you that space. If you smile your brain follows the smile and you start to relax even with some twit swing a sword at you. Practicing having fun even under immence pressure is the doorway to the zone, or the time and space you require to seeing and reacting properly to way out. People who over emotionalize events that are about to happen are the ones who have only their training and hard work to rely on, cause they have formed the mental block before stepping up to the plate. In life people who already realize that "Hey you know something :o it is all the game of life, we chooce to play and it does all work out in the finish anyway"! These people go into anything open to anything.

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Originally Posted by Andre

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by Andre

Donny it works in anything. I staked my claim as being the best in my business in the southern hemisphere way before I actually was. I listened to a mate one day and he got me thinking and doing so I just climbed the hill and tapped the flag in and made the claim out loud in the right places.
Now I am, because the oppertunity to prove it came my way fast and still does all the time with no advertizing at all.I get all the hard work that others shit themselves over.That has brought frustration as well as hard times actually doing some things but hey; ;D hahahhaa ; or I go crazy by my own design. The whole thing is actually just a big game; we choose to play it and chooce to take some of it way too seriously at times. Being and doing can arise together or we can have them seperatley,you see clearer and have more time to move in the latter.

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Cool Andre, I just learned a lot!

I once asked why expierience brought so much "skill and ability."
The reason I was given was "No Fear."
I guess he meant confidence in one's ability, faith in one's self.

In the past year I've applied this. I'm no longer nervous before fights and I get relaxed. I don't get afraid anymore and I find I perform so much better now.

---

Fear and nerves is two matters as well, one can be blind and binding the other can help like a hair trigger.

Sounds like you already got the space to work and think freely in the moment or in the zone. (We see so many people in life and fighters) out thinking themselves into a clog up and fixed mindset and not being able to react freely and then worse when the shit hit s the fan ;not be able to even rethink the right way out -so that they can get a space to move the way they need to. The first over thought or over worry; smacks both options clean out of the water.Thats why I think humour about any event or problem. Brings relaxation,and gives you that space. If you smile your brain follows the smile and you start to relax even with some twit swing a sword at you. Practicing having fun even under immence pressure is the doorway to the zone, or the time and space you require to seeing and reacting properly to way out. People who over emotionalize events that are about to happen are the ones who have only their training and hard work to rely on, cause they have formed the mental block before stepping up to the plate. In life people who already realize that "Hey you know something :o it is all the game of life, we chooce to play and it does all work out in the finish anyway"! These people go into anything open to anything.

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I had a terrible problem last year out thinking.

I'd be deciding on a four punch to throw and I'd get clipped.
I spar tonight, I'll apply some of this stuff.