Just read that these two are fighting at the next UFC. My question is, if Renzo , from what I hear, was arguably better than Royce, how is B.J. Penn going to beat him? Will this even be a competitive fight?
Or am I thinking of the wrong Gracie?
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Just read that these two are fighting at the next UFC. My question is, if Renzo , from what I hear, was arguably better than Royce, how is B.J. Penn going to beat him? Will this even be a competitive fight?
Or am I thinking of the wrong Gracie?
You may be thinking of Rickson Gracie. Renzo is good, but I don't think he is good enough to handle BJ Penn anymore. BJ beat his cousin Rodrigo Gracie and one of Renzo's training partners pretty handily. It should be a good fight, but BJ Penn is the man to beat. Is this fight in the UFC or Rumble on the Rock?
I'm not sure. If you go to fightnews.com, it's on the front page.
It will be in K-1 in Japan. By the way, Matt Serra (Renzo Black Belt) was also beaten by BJ Penn. Easy to bills as a teacher seeking revenge for his students. I like Renzo. He's a great guy (and promoted me to Blue Belt), but BJ is tough. Renzo lost to Carlos Newton in his last MMA fight. Unless he's improved his stand-up, I don't see him beating BJ. I'll go with BJ by decision.
I've never seen a good Gracie do they still exist?
All the ones I've seen in PRIDE have been shitbags
I doubt any of them can trouble BJ Penn
Well if Renzo lost to Carlos Newton, he might not be that good, cuz Newton never really impressed me.
And to that last post, if you've "never seen a good Gracie", I guess you never saw Royce in his early UFC days.
First off isn't this a boxing forum not UFC forum. No matter I have watched plenty of UFC including the very first ones. The first ones were my favorite, you had guys like: Ken Shamrock, Frank Shamrock, Dan "the Beast" Severan, Kimo, and the best of them all Royce Gracie. Royce Gracie was an unbelieable fighter for his size. He could submit guys twice his size. He out powered that Monster Kimo and defeated him. He also was the first to make Ken tap out.
Renzo is not better than Royce. You're thinking of Rickson.Quote:
Originally Posted by BABABOOEY
NOQuote:
Originally Posted by BABABOOEY
I've argued with Clydey about ity before I fail to see how any Gracie past or present could hang with any of the top guns today. They'd get their face caved in standing up and be overpowered on the ground
Which Gracies has Sakarabu fought I know hes beaten 3 Gracies and hes good but Wanderlei Silva beats on him on a regular basis
Bah! Royce could hange with any of the guys out there today, he'd make TITO TAP! But since I rarely get to discuss UFC or mixed martial arts fighting with many people, I feel the need to comment on the best UFC type match I have ever seen. It was between James forgot his last name, he has lots of tats, is a heavy weight, has an anchor tattoo if that helps and this guy from Visalia, CA called "the Rhino". Also James had one match in the UFC that I know of with this black HW on the under card of Ortiz vs Belfort...and he got KO'd if that helps. But any way the fight was in a smaller circuit out fit on HDNET channel. I think it was Extreme Cage Fighting or something, James was the Champ and the 230 pound beast Rhino, the challenger. James beat this man's ass from pillar to post. Big time. We are talkin with leg kicks, lots of punches to the face, Muy Thai clinches with knees, ground and pound. My god what an ass kicking, Rhino took it all too until the fight was stopped in the second 5 min round. But it was awesome, the most exciting MMA fight I have ever seen period. That good!
Hideko Yoshida (sp?), an Olympic Judo medalist, has been doing well in MMA (even though some of his fights have been rumored to be works). He fought Silva and did well...still lost. He also fought Royce and got beaten from pillar to post. Royce has been doing well although he's gone the way of Rickson only taking big money fights. Can't say I blame him. Anyway, most of the older Gracies are over 38 years old. There are some young guns on the way up and one relative, Roger Gracie, just dominated at the ADCC submission championships and is looking to go into MMA. Time will tell if they have evolved with the sport. I think they will do fine.
When I see a Gracie beat a Silva, Liddel, Couture etc.
I'll change my tune if their so good why won't they touch any of the top guys?
yes i agree the gracies aint shit now. renzo is gonna get killed by penn just look what he did to Gomi which is the number one ranked lightweight fighter.
The only two gracies heavy enough to fight Silva, Liddell, or Couture are Royce and Rickson. Both seem to only be taking big money single elimination bouts. Rickson hasn't fought since his son died and Royce just fought some 300+ sumo guy named Akebono. I don't think either of them will face the likes of the above anytime soon. Maybe Royce, but he'll most likely price himself out of the fight. Pride could make it happen though.
Isn't lightweight around 155 in MMA? Renzo is a 170 pound fighter. Doesn't matter though. BJ beat Matt Hughes at 185. I don't think Renzo will get killed, but I don't think he'll win. After all, BJ didn't kill Matt Serra (Renzo Black Belt), Rodrigo Gracie (Renzo Black Belt), or a purple belt of Renzo's (can't remember his name). Although he did beat all three. Renzo will most likely be decisioned. Neither BJ or Renzo will get submitted on the ground.
Heres some facts on Renzo Gracie. Some of you out there seem to get things twisted.
Renzo is a fighter at 185lbs not 170...
Renzo is no Matt Hughes, (Renzo's ground work and stand-up is better).
Rodrigo Gracie(Renzo's Cousin) lost to BJ Penn on a decision not like Matt Hughes did(Hughes got tapped).
Renzo will do much better against Penn, Penn never fought the caliber of fighter Renzo Gracie is...
Penn will have a nightmare on his hands...
Royce is 170lbs and Rickson is about 185lbs, non of which can be in the same division in Pride as Wanderlei Silva...
Peace'
- Arthur "Red Devil" Renzo Gracie Jiu Jitsu NYC.
ALL IN ALL GRACIE JIU JISTU IS A GREAT STYLE, AND THE GRACIE'S HAVE DONE ALOT FOR THE SPORT! LET'S NOT FORGET RICKSON WHO HAS NEVER LOST A SINGLE FIGHT!!!!
Red Devil,
Okay, Renzo is 185. My point was that a weight difference between Renzo and BJ won't be a factor. I never compared Renzo to Matt Hughes, but Matt Hughes did beat Carlos Newton who Renzo lost to in his last fight. I know its ABC stuff, but at least you have a common opponent to compare styles and outcomes. Three of Renzo's students were decisioned by BJ. I don't see a sub happening. Both guys are too skilled in that area. If Marcelo Garcia couldn't sub Renzo, I don't see BJ doing it either. I think this fight will be decided on the feet. I think BJ has the edge there, but I hope Renzo proves me wrong. BJ has proven very difficult to takedown and has decent stand up skills. My head goes with BJ, but we can agree to disagree there. What weight are they fighting at? What is your academy's relationship with Gleason's? Has Renzo been training with them?
While all those fighters aren't in Rickson or Royce's weight class, that has never been an issue for either of them. Royce just subbed Akebono. That guy was huge! I think if the money was right, Royce would take a fight with those guys and do very well. Rickson says he may fight once or twice before he stops. He doesn't choose his opponents, but I think the Japanese market will demand that one of their fighters try to take on Rickson since he has subbed every Japanese fighter he's fought over there. Rickson has a different status over there and gets paid well above the other fighters when he competes. As good as Silva, Liddell, and Couture are, they don't have the same status in Japan.
War,
U seem to know your stuff...not to much i could add to wat u've already said.
Some of our guys train over at Gleason's Boxing.,
We got alot of our trainers from Different places. They're helping Renzo with his stand-up., I gotta say he looks pretty good.
Our camp and Matt Serra's guys have been training hard.
U know our place has some High Caliber strikers/bjj guys.
since u know wat team im on u know how i feel, and who im for...kinda one sided...,i hope BJ gets rocked., and if Renzo does it, itll be huge.
maybe in a few years u'll see me on ur TV screen. (haha)
right now i gotta stick to my BJJ comp's and see wat Renzo says...
but when he thinks im ready ill be there.
One Guy to watch for from our team is my training partner Renat "the flying Russian" Myrzabekov.
Oh and if u go to sherdog to check on his record its way off, he's like 26w-7L, or something like that
got a big show coming up, prolly in Japan Pancrease or Shooto.
Peace' Arthur "Red Devil" Renzo Gracie JiuJitsu
Red Devil,
I hope Renzo wins, but if someone asked me to put money down I'd have to go with BJ. I think Matt did the best against BJ. BJ didn't seem to want to engage Matt. I didn't see the Rodrigo fight though. It would be crazy if Renzo pulls this one out. I'd love to see how his standup has improved. Its great to see that he's still having fun, still learning, and still active. One thing is sure, he's been producing some great fighters. Ricardo did great in Japan. I heard that Jamal Patterson is getting into MMA now too. I'll definitely keep my eye on you guys. Good luck with your training.
www.fokaidamashii.com
this site has video previews for the fight.
renzo has no chance agaisnt BJ. BJ went up in weight from 155 and beat some of the best fighters goin up. his last fight was agaisnt a HW and he did pretty good. i really dont see how he will get beat by renzo
when did BJ fight a HW? I know Silva fought Mark Hunt (HW) and did well. Penn has only been fighting in Rumble at the Rock. I think his last opponent was Rodrigo Gracie. Did I miss one? Who did he fight?
Hahaha, just saw the Rumble on the Rock clips of Renzo and BJ talking about eachother, u gotta admit Renzo's funny.
Renzo makes a comment about BJ, saying that he's a traitor. Its true. BJ i think got his blue or purple belt in JiuJitsu from Renzo's brother Ralph "Pitbull" Gracie.
Well anyway-i cant wait for the fight...
Ryan, Ralph, Matt Serra and his boys are in the academy training with Renzo everyday...
He's gonna eat BJ...
Oh and for all u talking about Rodrigo Gracie, he dint have any of his usual guys in his corner... and sort of lacked that fire, and encouragement u get from ur usual corner people...especially ur cousins like Renzo,Royce.
believe me ur corner makes a huge difference.
but he won his last fight totally dominated this japanese guy with a sh;t load of experience.
peace' Arthur "Red Devil" RenzoGracieJiujitsuNYC
Renzo better than Royce????
i allways thought that royce looked scared, but he was amazing at that grappling shit.
I seriously doubt that renzo is better overall,
although he may be a better striker, royce's grappling abilities compensate the difference.
I HATED royce gracie, but i must respect his ability.......
SAKURABA over ROYCE???
VANDERLEIIIIIIIIIIII....... SILVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If anyone cares, I watch a fair share of MMA, not nearly as much as boxing but enuff. Anyway anyone interested in witnessing the absolute worst ass kicking in MMA History....check out the WEC(World Extreme Cagefighting) HW championship fight between Doug "Rhino" Marshall and James "sandman" Irving. It was brutal. Marshall got kneed, kicked in the thigh, punched repeatedly, taken down, kneed some more, punched somemore and finally after about a round and a half, KO'd big time. Unbelieable ass kicking. Just Brutal. WORST EVER!!!!!!
Very few MMA fighters below 200lbs have impressed me. This may be because PRIDE don't invest in the lower weight divisions and UFC focus more on the heavier guys.
This is why its hard for me to rate a Gracie cos I have have little knowledge of anyone they've beaten. BJ Penn is great little fighter he did tap Hughes but Hughes has his weaknesses hes as one dimensional as Tito. Hughes is always open to the choke. BJ did not prove he is the best at 170 with one fight I have no clue about rumble in the rock cause we don't have that over here.
Can Gracies punch cause the only ones I've seen are completely inept at standup and you can't compete against the top guys with no standup
How can some of you guys say Royce would never beat today's top competition? Someone said Royce wouldnt beat Ortiz??? If Royce made an in his prime Shamrock tap out, he'd eat Tito Ortiz in 2 minutes.
Couture is great, but on the ground, he's not Royce Gracie. This is a guy who made his UFC living fighting and beating guys much bigger than him. Remember Dan Severn? Remember Kimo?
Dan Severn isn't fit to tie Coutures laces he was purely a wrestler he'd never been taught any form of martial arts before joining the ufcQuote:
Originally Posted by BABABOOEY
Kimo is not much better
these guys were one dimensional back then and had no technique to counter a good submission fighter
fuckoff anyone can submit Tito Ortiz in 2 mins your on crack mate
I don't even rate Tito but if a young tito with no experience can go 20 mins with a prime Frank Shamrock and only get finished cause he had'nt got the stamina to continue then how the fuck you can say anyone can submit him in 2 mins is beyond me
You need to watch the new breed of MMA fighters cause they train in more than one discipline and actually know how to defend submissions
I really love how people on this forum love to tell me "you need to do this and that". I've seen plenty of Royce Gracie and Tito Ortiz. My decision is what it is. Tito Ortiz is a one dimensional fighter, ground and pound. But that crap dont work against a real Ju-Jitsu expert.
And I only brought up Kimo and Severn cuz they were both much bigger and stronger then Royce, yet he made them tap. I know Kimo was garbage.
he fought Ryoto Machida. a very good up and coming star.Quote:
Originally Posted by War
WhyHello, I didn't know that. Good lookin' out. Renzo is tough. Even when he loses, he gives a great performance. The only time he didn't is when he got KOed by Dan Henderson shooting in. It happens. Renzo has to be the most active of the Gracie fighters. He has also produced some very good MMA fighters. He and BJ will be an entertaining fight. Whoever controls the stand up will win. The fight will definitely be decided on the feet. In my mind, BJ has the edge right now and Renzo is the underdog. If Renzo comes back for a W, it will be a great accomplishment.
Red Devil, BJ did get his blue and purple from Ralph, but I don't think he's a traitor. He just switched schools. The first American to win gold at the Black Belt level at the BJJ World Champs is not too shabby. The rivalry is good hype though. Renzo is great at talkin trash!
Royce is in great shape and is much better than he was in the early UFCs. He would give any current A level fighter a great fight. When he's motivated, he's still one of the top fighters. However, $$$ are dictating his career now.
Tito is one dimensional you used him as an example not meQuote:
Originally Posted by BABABOOEY
If Titos style doesn't work against Jui Jitsui how come Frank Shamrock could'nt get him in a submission or is Frank Shamrock not a good submission fighter ???
I don't think Tito even makes the top 10 at 205 anymore
Are any Gracies competing in the PRIDE GPs ???
If not why these are the best tournaments in MMA
Are u with me, or against me? I'm not crazy about Tito Ortiz. I said Royce woulda tapped him out in 2-3 minutes.
I would not call him garbage, but he did get KO'd damn quick by an old Shamrock who gets ass kicked all the time these days. Really, I think Royce could have submitted Ortiz, but not in 2 mins. More like after about 2 rounds. And IMO the "New and improved" UFC and its fighters suck compared to the old school ones. I used to love to see strictly Kung Fu, or boxing guys take on wrestlers and submission artists and what not. It was also cool to see 190 lb guys go against 250+ guys. It was all very exciting, and the fights did not get stopped in a heartbeat like they do now. I mean one good punch and the fight is IMMMEDIATELY stopped. The old UFC kicked ass. The new UFC has its moments but can be pretty tame and boring. All the fighters style's are just a jumbled mess of a bunch of styles. It works but no fighters style stands out since they are basically all the same. Liddell makes fights interesting though with his KO power. And I love to H@te Frank Mir. I hope Andre KO's him soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by BABABOOEY
SILVA RAMPAGE 1 and 2 are both pretty brutalQuote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
any gracie would get stomped by a top 10 fighter in thei weight class now and days IMO most fighters now are more well rounded and they know a lot of submission defense. dont get me wrong the gracies are very good BJJers but they are not well rounded enough
Renzo is great and will beat B.J. on his feet then on the ground.
I'm not sure to be honestQuote:
Originally Posted by BABABOOEY
I don't rate Ortiz at all I think his style is about as entertaining as Hopkins is in boxing
Tito is not as skilled though however as an athlete he is phenominal you have to appreciate his strength and stamina he is a talented wrestler and that makes him extremely difficult to submit at 205 I think it is very hard to imagine him being submitted especially in 2 rounds
I think Jui Jitsui is less effective these days because the more well rounded fighters know how to defend submissions.
My favourite MMA fighters are Chuck Liddell, Wanderlei Silva, CroCop, Arlovksi, Terrell, Yves Edwards, Shogun Rua and Rampage Jackson.
With the exception of Rampage and Crocop these are well rounded fighters that you did'nt see in the early UFCs
The early UFCs were funny but the skill level didn't compare to what we see today
PRIDE kicks UFCs ass anyway watch the middleweight GPs
I like Pride because it is cheaper and similiar to the old UFC in that ANYTHING can happen. I mean I have seen them throw a luchadore "Pro" wrestler in there with a top Heavy Weight Puncher and it was funny. Oh and you guys should check out the WEC its tight. If you have the HDNET channel check it out, its FREE! Olof Rocks!