Ali
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Ali
Wlad Klitschko
Okay, you can't just drop a name like that and not back it up with anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
I hate saying it, but Mike Tyson. He fought nobodies in his prime because that was all there was to fight and had a tendency to get lazy. I wouldn't say it had he had a better mental make-up because Tyson had everything. He was like the tin-man, hard, but he had no heart. If you could stand up to Tyson's power or give him something he couldn't deal with you had him in the palm of your hand. Look at Tyson's last fight. He threw everything but the kitchen sink at the guy and when he wouldn't go away Tyson quit.
Tough one. I think everyone pretty much gets as much credit as they deserve. Maybe Ali gets abit more than his wins warrant but thats cuz of people are led to belive he is the best by the media.
Yes, and Lennox too, I'm afraid.Quote:
Originally Posted by plopeater
Lennox overrated how?
At the moment Sam Peter for me
David Haye.
At least until I actually see him fight someone.
Overrated i'm not sure, i hate to use that term but in question for me is chris arreola, now wait before you start the bad rep's cause i like the guy i just feel too much is being put on his shouders to be the next great ameri kkk can (jus playin had to throw that in) heavyweight saviour and i think they are going to rush his progress just to have one.
Riddick Bowe may not have been the MOST overrated, but he was overrated, IMO. People wanted SO BADLY for him to do great... and he quite never fulfilled his potential. So Riddick makes that list for me.
Ali????? You must not have seen many of his fights......I mean really.....:rolleyes:
Ok here goes time too defend myself. Yes I have seen many of his fight's and also have many of his fight's and rare one's at that.but so many of his fight's that come too mind I've seen him lose in my eye's. Frazier II. I mean how does a man win that widespread by touching and running anmd sitting on the ropes holing behind the neck.Frazier was the stalker constantly pressuring Ali and if it wasn't for Frazier coming forward there would be no fight. Earnie Shaver's the man knocked Ali down and to me clearly won the desicion. I have it on film.The ref rules no knockdown,Doug Jones again I thought Jones outpointed Ali. Ken Norton in one of the biggest robberies in boxing at Yankee Stadium to end their trilogy. To me the referee's were starstruck if Ali were too fight nowadays I believe he would be disqualified at least five times.The constant pulling on the back of the neck Frazier,Bonavena,Foreman,Norton,Lyle,the list goes one also the way he used to stick his glove out an open glove at that to those same people.
Another reason was the involvement with what happenend outside the ring. Honestly do you think that many Muslims or hippie's would be attracted to a black catholic boxer.Hell no. I 've seen so many of this man's fight's and seen him get away with repeated time after time fouls.That in this day and age would be penalized. One more is Ali was in the worst of fight's I had ever seen Buster Mathis Sr. and another I had never seen until recently on the Ali marathon last weekend Alvin Lewis. I looked at that fight and said what the hell the guy got hit with a jab and the stopped it. Lewis was overmatched but still I think I fell asleep in every round of that fight.Rudi Lubbers need I say more.
I am not saying Ali was a horrible fighter in fact when he was known as Cassius Clay I said damn that's the greatest fighter I've ever seen then as I put in more tapes in my trusty VCR I see this man just leaning on the ropes taking stupid punishment and everyone saying this guy is The Greatest fighter ever? Not in my eyes When I can count another five losses that should have been wins for his oppenent's.
Oh well that's the best I can come up with
I was distracted by the picture in your avatar.... but about Ali, well I ......er... I'm sorry... what was I saying?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
Just kidding man. You have a right to consider Ali overrated, just as all of us fight fans have different opinions on everything. Personally, I thought Ali-Frazier III was one of the greatest fights I've ever seen. Were refs "starstruck" as you say in some of Ali's fights? Yeah... I agree with that. But he did accomplish some remarkable feats inside the ring. Somehow, he found a way to not only beat, but to KO the "Monster" George Foreman who, not only annihilated most boxers he faced, but also scared them into soiling their pants before they ever got into the ring. So you gotta give some credit to the man. And as for those multi-colored socks..... er..... I'm sorry bro.... I'm drifting again.
:p ;D
I think so sort of and only by some people ;), but for me just on style, i cant help but think some others if they were his same size would of had him worked out more consistantly. Cause he was big with the added reach, he utilized it perfectly and shaped his stye around that safley (8/9 out of 10.) but not the greatest of all time,the older style greats would of had him on work rate and angles.Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonbruno
Its cool man I'm a Frazier fan too, he's one of the most "underrated" fighters in history. I agree, I thought Frazier won that too, but I can admit I was biased. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
I'd say Ali and Tyson also,there proberbly the 2 biggest names in Boxing history,and 4 this reason casual/non Boxing fans seem 2 think they were unbeaten/P4P best ever etc.Iv'e argued plenty of times with non Boxing fans over calling Tyson 'unbeatable' and as 1 bloke called him on this Sports forum I go on the 'P4P best Boxer of all time'. The media are the worst 4 overating Ali,there are plenty of smaller Boxers who deserve just as much attention Ali gets.The 2 of them in the prime were 2 of the best,but as pointed out earlier,prime Tysons HW div was weak,Ali who is rated by many as P4P GOAT is overating the pair of them.
The only thing i can really agree with is when you said he was great when he was known as Cassius Clay. When he was younger Ali was fast as shit.
Im just curious... How do you guys rate a boxer? What is the criteria? Is there a bench mark to compare with? Right now im confuse coz the heavies that most of you just mentioned as overrated are great boxers in their division to my opinion...
I thought Lewis was a fantastic athlete, great hand eye coordination, graceful and he had the size to go with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonbruno
On the minus side, I always thought his chin was brittle (and I'm not criticising him for the two KOs he suffered, I think nearly anyone would have been flattened by those pounches), he always fought cautiously as if he was a bit gun shy. His jab could have been much better but he often chose not to use it, he used his size well but also used a limited arsenal of punches.
He was also unlucky in that Tyson and Holyfield were both shot, Bowe was self destructing etc so he didnlt have anybody really good he could fight, yet still contrived to lose to two of the more average fighters you would ever see on a Champions resume as losses.
I'm not saying that Lennox was BAD, but he wasn;t the ATG that some people say.
Ken Norton. He made a career out of beating Ali and making him look bad the other two times. If Ali had beaten him the first time, there would have been no reason for the other two fights and I think Norton would be somewhat forgotten now.
amenQuote:
Originally Posted by KillfaceOkay, you can't just drop a name like that and not back it up with anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
I hate saying it, but Mike Tyson. He fought nobodies in his prime because that was all there was to fight and had a tendency to get lazy. I wouldn't say it had he had a better mental make-up because Tyson had everything. He was like the tin-man, hard, but he had no heart. If you could stand up to Tyson's power or give him something he couldn't deal with you had him in the palm of your hand. Look at Tyson's last fight. He threw everything but the kitchen sink at the guy and when he wouldn't go away Tyson quit.
Lennox- Underrated by the general public, he lacked charisma and the entertainment value in the ring.
Truth is he was one of the most formiddable heavyweights of all time
I don't know about Wladimir considering he gets trashed a whole lot and I definitely wouldn't say Ali, but Tyson, yes, and I'm a huge fan of his. If Tyson wasn't overrated then how was he packing arenas at the tail-end of his career when he was fighting nobodies? Tyson could have gotten a PPV against one of those clown things that bounce right back up when you punch 'em.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadwolf
No one has said Lewis was the greatest heavyweights ever, he is somewhere in the top 10, which is certainly not overrating him, he was lazy against Rahman and got caught with a stupid shot and knocked cold, and was clipped on the top of the head from McCall, both of which he returned to beat, he got a little lazy in the later stages of his career and was a bit lakluster against Klitschko, but the guy won the Gold Medal and pretty much every world title, and beat 10 world champions. Sometimes he wasn't the prettiest to watch but sometimes you have to be smart and use your advantages, if you are gung-ho and dive into things you might impress the crowds but the W is the most important thing at the end of the day. Harsh that he has been brought up, if he was rated the best heavyweight of all time fair enough, but that is not the case he is regarded as top 10 which is more than fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by XI thought Lewis was a fantastic athlete, great hand eye coordination, graceful and he had the size to go with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonbruno
On the minus side, I always thought his chin was brittle (and I'm not criticising him for the two KOs he suffered, I think nearly anyone would have been flattened by those pounches), he always fought cautiously as if he was a bit gun shy. His jab could have been much better but he often chose not to use it, he used his size well but also used a limited arsenal of punches.
He was also unlucky in that Tyson and Holyfield were both shot, Bowe was self destructing etc so he didnlt have anybody really good he could fight, yet still contrived to lose to two of the more average fighters you would ever see on a Champions resume as losses.
I'm not saying that Lennox was BAD, but he wasn;t the ATG that some people say.
Lewis certainly is'nt overated,he would have to be rated to be overated,and I believe he's 1 of the most underated Boxers in history,I think theres only a handfull of HW Boxers that would of stood a chance of beating a prime,focused Lewis.
Whoever thinks ali is overrated is stupid look what he did he beat all time greats liston,patterson,moore,frazier,foreman, he beat these guys and beat other fighters champions today would have struggled against. ali in his prime was amazing could you see much heavyweights throwing 10 punch combos with his speed. ALI BUMAYAI. Anyway back to the point lewis was overrated i just dont like him his style was boring he just used his size to beat class c fighters who did he beat who was great. A shot stabbed and money hungry tyson? OVERRATED.
Quote:
Originally Posted by feeney
Sonny Liston fix was in the second fight first one was great yes prime Cassius Clay. Floyd Patterson a champion in the fifties when he fought him he was 38 or something and old shell of Floyd Patterson.Archie light heavyweight champ again a former shell of himself. Shit he was like 50 by time him and Ali fought.Frazier beat him in the first in my eyes again in the second,the third I had him ahead by 1 round . The Foreman fight was a miracle I agree. but IMO Ali is looked for more what he did outside the ring than in it.
Tyson is only overrated by naive young boxing fans. You can usually spot them because they always refer to a "prime mike tyson" like it makes his dominating victories over Larry Holmes' washed up opponents seem more signficant.Quote:
Originally Posted by KillfaceOkay, you can't just drop a name like that and not back it up with anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
I hate saying it, but Mike Tyson. He fought nobodies in his prime because that was all there was to fight and had a tendency to get lazy. I wouldn't say it had he had a better mental make-up because Tyson had everything. He was like the tin-man, hard, but he had no heart. If you could stand up to Tyson's power or give him something he couldn't deal with you had him in the palm of your hand. Look at Tyson's last fight. He threw everything but the kitchen sink at the guy and when he wouldn't go away Tyson quit.
Jack Dempsey. He fought mediocre fighters every couple of years as champion and avoided the real challengers.
U dont rate him cos u dont like his style,and he was boring?! Class c fighters are the HWs u see now,not the HWs of Lewis era,the fact that u rate beating Tyson as the best thing Lewis did shows your clueless! Go and watch Lewis career set,this is why he's underated,cos he has so many haters! Maybe if he'd got into a few fights outside some nightclubs or came from a broken home,he'd get a few more fans!Quote:
Originally Posted by feeney
Of all time ALI.....he is HANDS DOWN the most overrated FIGHTER ever in the history of the sport. He was great but he wasn't without his shortcomings.
Right now DAVID HAYE....calling out THE man before ever fighting a fight vs a top level heavyweight
And Haye's fans are fucking mental!