I just watched Pacquiao-Marquez 2

I still can't believe how Pac dismantled Oscar and I got into this mood watching his exciting fights so I watched his last fight with Marquez again and IMO it seems like Pac really won. It was close when you look at the compubox numbers or Marquez should have even won if we looked at it punch for punch coz everytime Marquez landed his shots it was consecutive punches and was pretty and well timed plus Pac is out of balanced whenever he got hit.BUT.When I scored it round by round to me Pac clearly won.

rd 1. 10-9 Marquez
it was very close but got to give it to him for the tempo

rd 2. 10-9 Marquez
hit Pac with a great combo and a vicious left hook to end it

rd 3. 10-8 Pacquiao
scored a KD from a big left cross

rd 4. 10-9 Pacquiao
fed off the momentum of the KD

rd 5. 10-9 Marquez
recovered well and begins to connect with the right at will

rd 6. 10-9 Marquez
slow paced round and he landed the most telling shot

rd 7. 10-9 Pacquiao
accidental headbutt.a very close round but the tempo and the exchanges were in favor of him

rd 8. 10-9 Marquez
dominant round for him.connected big right hands that opened a cut on Pac's right eye.Pac was clearly bothered

rd 9. 10-9 Pacquiao
came back with his own connections of left hand that busted Marquez's right eye

rd 10. 10-9 Pacquiao
almost scored a KD and threw a barrage of flurries on a wobbled Marquez

rd 11. 10-9 Pacquiao
he seems to have figured out how to stay away from Marquez's right and sustained attacks continously

rd 12 10-10
Even.I can't say enough about this round. Marquez seems desperate and is throwing it all out but Pac is blocking almost all of it while still connecting even with less power. I initially gave it to Marquez but when I watched it again,like Manny Steward stated I too was impressed by how Pac defended the onslaught so I gave it to him. I can see why Lederman gave it to Pac. But most people say Marquez threw enough to get the round.Won't matter though IMO.

115-113 Pacquiao

IMO even if Marquez won the 12th he would have still lost because of the KD.

There were 3 very close rounds.(1, 7, 12) I scored the 1st for Marquez (HBO for Pac) the 7th in favor of Pac (everyone seems to agree) and the controversial 12th even.

But I if we give it all to Marquez he would win 7 rounds and may have salvaged a 114-113 win. If I give Pac those 3 close rounds he would win with comfortable 116-111 decision.

I think Marquez won in the CompuBox stats. and by how lopsided it looked during the rounds he won. Plus I think most people are assuming that because the fight went the distance it should have been Marquez's fight. Yes it was indeed a great gameplan by Marquez and he definitely made Pac looked most awkward and uncomfortable whenever they fight.But boxing is scored round by round so I don't think people should questioned Pac's victory saying Marquez got robbed. Let's give the man the credit he deserves and let's look at him as a fighter continually improving and entertaining us like he always does.


P.S.
I knew I'm still in awe from last saturday's fight but I think I didn't looked or sounded like a hugger. Do I liked Pacquiao? Yes.. but I'm not quite there yet. ;D

I had a scorecard for this fight but i'll watch it again right now and give my scorecard.

I had it 114-113 for Pacquiao, but I also thought 114-113 for Marquez was a completely acceptable score.

Regardless, the way Pac has destroyed Diaz and Oscar gives a bit of a glimpse into how good Marquez is.

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

I had it 114-113 for Pacquiao, but I also thought 114-113 for Marquez was a completely acceptable score.

Regardless, the way Pac has destroyed Diaz and Oscar gives a bit of a glimpse into how good Marquez is.

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or how good casamayor is cause he was winning before the knock out.

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

I had it 114-113 for Pacquiao, but I also thought 114-113 for Marquez was a completely acceptable score.

Regardless, the way Pac has destroyed Diaz and Oscar gives a bit of a glimpse into how good Marquez is.

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Yep. He's a great warrior. But styles makes fights bro. I think we should not measure how good a fighter is on who his opponents has beaten. Remember he had a very tough time against Barrera whom Pac KO'd and convingly defeated the 2nd time. Some people think Barrera even won the fight against Marquez. It was controversial and IMO more rightly so than Pac-Marquez 2.

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Originally Posted by Julius Rain

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

I had it 114-113 for Pacquiao, but I also thought 114-113 for Marquez was a completely acceptable score.

Regardless, the way Pac has destroyed Diaz and Oscar gives a bit of a glimpse into how good Marquez is.

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or how good casamayor is cause he was winning before the knock out.

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but i think the fact that pac was having a hard time making 130 play a part in his performance against jmm and mab. He seemed a lot better when he doesn't have to cut weight. thats why a third match with jmm should happen. above 130.

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Originally Posted by ICB

I had a scorecard for this fight but i'll watch it again right now and give my scorecard.

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I'll appreciate it man. I also suggest you looked at my round by round analysis as you watch the fight and give me your opinion if there is something very objectable.:)

I thought Marquez won on the night. I watched it again last week and still thought Marquez won.

I gave Pac 4 rounds.. maybe could have been 5. It wasn't a robbery though.

Great fight.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I thought Marquez won on the night. I watched it again last week and still thought Marquez won.

I gave Pac 4 rounds.. maybe could have been 5. It wasn't a robbery though.

Great fight.

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What rounds specifically? And if you can remember please tell us the rounds you taught could have gone either way.

I still think Marquez won. I don't remember the rounds but I did have it close. Probably right around 114-113

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

Same score i had last time 114-113 Marquez, i thought Marquez pulled it out in the championship rounds.

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Originally Posted by Julius Rain

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

I had it 114-113 for Pacquiao, but I also thought 114-113 for Marquez was a completely acceptable score.

Regardless, the way Pac has destroyed Diaz and Oscar gives a bit of a glimpse into how good Marquez is.

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or how good casamayor is cause he was winning before the knock out.

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I had JMM winning.

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Originally Posted by the_pRoDiGy

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I thought Marquez won on the night. I watched it again last week and still thought Marquez won.

I gave Pac 4 rounds.. maybe could have been 5. It wasn't a robbery though.

Great fight.

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What rounds specifically? And if you can remember please tell us the rounds you taught could have gone either way.

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Definitely gave Pac the 3rd, 4th and 10th.. not certain of the other.

I'm not sure about the close rounds. But clearly i was scoring them for Marquez ;)

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Julius Rain

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

I had it 114-113 for Pacquiao, but I also thought 114-113 for Marquez was a completely acceptable score.

Regardless, the way Pac has destroyed Diaz and Oscar gives a bit of a glimpse into how good Marquez is.

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or how good casamayor is cause he was winning before the knock out.

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I had JMM winning.

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what was your scorecard after the 10th no including the 11th.

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Originally Posted by Julius Rain

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Julius Rain

or how good casamayor is cause he was winning before the knock out.

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I had JMM winning.

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what was your scorecard after the 10th no including the 11th.

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Well i actually done a RBR on the fight i've just found the thread, so excuse the spelling mistakes because i was very excited at the time.

Round 1

Here we go fellas Casamayor comes out fast looking to land his jab solid body shot from Casamayor good exchange no one got the advantage in that exchange even start so far counter right hands from Marquez both men looking for openings nice straight left from Casamayor short right hand from Marquez lands nicely nice counter left hand from Casamayor and a nice combo followed by a nice left hand from Casamayor he is countering nicely nice right hand from Marquez and a left hand in return from Casamayor.

Close round but Casamayor had the edge 1-0 Casamayor.

Round 2

Nice counter straight left from Casamayor to start the round and another counter left hand from Casamayor good body shots from Marquez in return Casamayor is out countering Marquez at the moment another counter left from Casamayor he is beating Marquez to the punch at the moment nice straight right hand from Marquez and a body shot from Marquez jab to the body from Casamayor Marquez lands an uppercut and a right hand nice countering from Marquez but Casamayor comesback with a left hand.

Can you get much closer than that ? maybe a slight edge to Marquez 1-1 but very close.

Round 3

Nice counter right/left hook from Marquez but a nice counter left hand again from Casamayor big left hand from Casamayor nice right hand from Marquez backed up Casamayor counter right hand from Marquez both men still looking for counter shots a low blow from Marquez not much happening its a quite 3rd round nice right hand from Marquez through Casamayor's guard nice right hand again from Marquez and another followed by a body shot glancing right hand from Marquez.

Marquez's round 2-1 for Marquez.

Round 4

Both men come out exchaning nice body shots from Marquez and a 4 punch combo from Marquez very nicely done jab to the body and a right hand to the head from Marquez another nice right hand from Marquez backs up Casamayor nice left hand from Casamayor make that two actually Marquez comesback with a straight right hand clash of heads there but no damage done nice left hand from Casamayor good jab from Marquez nice right hand from Marquez left hook to the body from Marquez hard left hook to the body from Marquez nice right hand from Marquez good body shots from Casamayor hard left hand from Casamayor at the bell.

Casamayor come on good at the end of the round 2-2.

Round 5

Casamayor comes out jabbing alot of feinting by Marquez not much happening at the moment good left hand to the body from Casamayor nice quick flurry from Marquez hard right hand from Marquez nice shot another low shot from Marquez but it was on the belt line this round is up for grabs who will steal it Marquez lands another good right hand Casamayor lands a short straight left Marquez throws another 4 punch combo and lands 2 out of those 4 punches SOLID RIGHT HAND FROM MARQUEZ great shot.

Marquez's best round 3-2 to Marquez.

CASAMAYOR HAS QUITE A NASTY CUT.

Round 6

Marquez comes out landing straight right down the pipe Casamayor pressing the action nice combos from Marquez followed by a straight right to the body Marquez got headbutted under the chin i think but he is ok and they go back to work Casamayor lands counter left but he is landing less than he did in the first few rounds nice combo on the inside by Marquez nice counter right jab from Casamayor counter right hand from Marquez nice straight left in return from Casamayor Marquez is now winning the countering battle left uppercut from Marquez counter right hand from Marquez and another.

Good round for Marquez again 4-2 Marquez.

Casamayor's left hand ain't working aswell as it was earlier.

Round 7

Casamayor comes out stalking nice counter from Marquez good left hook to the body from Marquez i like Marquez's body work good counter right hand from Marquez and aother Casamayor is struggling with Marquez's right now good right hand to the body from Marquez hard left hook to the liver from Marquez followed by two nice combos to the head Casamayor looks like he is struggling now.

Marquez's round 5-2 Marquez.

Round 8

Marquez landing the more accurate shots nice counter right hand from Marquez the only decent punch in the round so far another good right hand from Marquez followed by a body shot good straight left hand from Casamayor and another good countering from Casamayor but Marquez comesback with a counter jab solid right hand right down the pipe from Marquez nice left hand from Casamayor both men counter eachother but a nice left hand from Casamayor he has established that left hand again.

Casamayor's round 5-3.

Round 9
Casamayor starts out with a left hand nice jab from Marquez but Casamayor counters with a straight left hand hard counter jab from Marquez nice counter left from Casamayor but a nice flurry from Marquez but again Casamayor with another counter left very hard left hand from Casamayor he is making Marquez miss in this round while landing his own counter shots another counter left right by Casamayor right on the button Marquez comesback with a straight right hand Casamayor shows nice slickness making Marquez miss nice 2 punch combo from Casamayor at the
bell.

Another round for Casamayor but 5-4 for Marquez still IMO

Round 10
Casamayor starts out with flicking jabs equal exchange of punches by both men sharp left hand from Casamayor body shots from Casamayor Marquez responds with body shots of his own both men countered eachother with there best punches HARD RIGHT HAND FROM MARQUEZ HIS BEST OF THE FIGHT LEFT HOOK FROM MARQUEZ counter right hand from Marquez jab jab right hand combo from Marquez left hand from Casmayor body and head shot combo from Marquez nice counter right hand from Marquez 3 in a row followed by a counter jab from Marquez.

HE TOOK THE PLAY AWAY FROM CASAMAYOR IN THAT ROUND GOOD ROUND FOR MARQUEZ 6-4 MARQUEZ.

Round 11

Casamayor comes out stalking left hand from Casamayor but short with it Marquez lands nice counter right hand again left hand from Casamayor right hand to the body from Marquez followed by counter right on the top of Casamayor's head nice counter left from Casamayor good counter left again from Casamayor nice right hand over the top from Marquez good body shot from Marquez but he eats a left hand from Casamayor in return a flurry of punches from Marquez none of them really effective AND DOWN GOES CASAMAYOR ON A HARD RIGHT HAND FROM MARQUEZ HE GETS UP BUT HE IS STILL BADLY HURT MARQUEZ GOES TO FINISH CASAMAYOR A FLURRY OF PUNCHES FROM MARQUEZ BODY AND HEAD CASAMAYOR TRIES TO COMEBACK BUT HE IS GETTING HIT WITH PUNCHES FROM ALL ANGLES FROM MARQUEZ AND CASAMAYOR GOES DOWN AGAIN ON A HARD RIGHT HAND AND THE FIGHTS OVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR CAN YOU BELIEVE IT

[quote=the_pRoDiGy;651449]I still can't believe how Pac dismantled Oscar and I got into this mood watching his exciting fights so I watched his last fight with Marquez again and IMO it seems like Pac really won. It was close when you look at the compubox numbers or Marquez should have even won if we looked at it punch for punch coz everytime Marquez landed his shots it was consecutive punches and was pretty and well timed plus Pac is out of balanced whenever he got hit.BUT.When I scored it round by round to me Pac clearly won.

rd 1. 10-9 Marquez
it was very close but got to give it to him for the tempo

rd 2. 10-9 Marquez
hit Pac with a great combo and a vicious left hook to end it

rd 3. 10-8 Pacquiao
scored a KD from a big left cross

rd 4. 10-9 Pacquiao
fed off the momentum of the KD

rd 5. 10-9 Marquez
recovered well and begins to connect with the right at will

rd 6. 10-9 Marquez
slow paced round and he landed the most telling shot

rd 7. 10-9 Pacquiao
accidental headbutt.a very close round but the tempo and the exchanges were in favor of him

rd 8. 10-9 Marquez
dominant round for him.connected big right hands that opened a cut on Pac's right eye.Pac was clearly bothered

rd 9. 10-9 Pacquiao
came back with his own connections of left hand that busted Marquez's right eye

rd 10. 10-9 Pacquiao
almost scored a KD and threw a barrage of flurries on a wobbled Marquez

rd 11. 10-9 Pacquiao
he seems to have figured out how to stay away from Marquez's right and sustained attacks continously

rd 12 10-10
Even.I can't say enough about this round. Marquez seems desperate and is throwing it all out but Pac is blocking almost all of it while still connecting even with less power. I initially gave it to Marquez but when I watched it again,like Manny Steward stated I too was impressed by how Pac defended the onslaught so I gave it to him. I can see why Lederman gave it to Pac. But most people say Marquez threw enough to get the round.Won't matter though IMO.

115-113 Pacquiao

IMO even if Marquez won the 12th he would have still lost because of the KD.

There were 3 very close rounds.(1, 7, 12) I scored the 1st for Marquez (HBO for Pac) the 7th in favor of Pac (everyone seems to agree) and the controversial 12th even.

But I if we give it all to Marquez he would win 7 rounds and may have salvaged a 114-113 win. If I give Pac those 3 close rounds he would win with comfortable 116-111 decision.

I think Marquez won in the CompuBox stats. and by how lopsided it looked during the rounds he won. Plus I think most people are assuming that because the fight went the distance it should have been Marquez's fight. Yes it was indeed a great gameplan by Marquez and he definitely made Pac looked most awkward and uncomfortable whenever they fight.But boxing is scored round by round so I don't think people should questioned Pac's victory saying Marquez got robbed. Let's give the man the credit he deserves and let's look at him as a fighter continually improving and entertaining us like he always does. (end)



I have the same scorecard, except giving rounds 11 and 12, a tossup or a flip flop; it was too close to call.

In the eight, I really thought it was Marquez' round to end Pacquiao. For whatever reason, he eased up on the pedal and let Pacquiao get back in the last four rounds. It was silly backtracking on Marquez', when the need clearly was to step-up, for the PacMan was seriously injured and fighting and defending inadequately.

I think in this fight, the Pac camp was out prepared. When JMM went back to his old ways*, after being aggressive his last few fights, it threw of their preparation. It was up to Pac to fight an intelligent fight, and bring it home for the team.

This Pacquiao, who fought JMM twice, is not even close to the Pacquiao (ala Duran/Pac version) whom DeLahoya, Diaz, Velasquez, and Barera I, all saw. So it is remarkable, and or lucky for Pacquiao to make a fight plan on the fly good enough to win, even by the narrowest of margins.

* I guess JMM was just stirring the hornet's nest, and once got a Pacquiao date, after 4 long years …went back to a strategy that they know will win, which is counter and combination. Avoiding an all out slugfest ala PacMan vs. EM II and III at all cost. Way of the wise, self-preservation in mind.

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Originally Posted by ICB

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

Same score i had last time 114-113 Marquez, i thought Marquez pulled it out in the championship rounds.

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the last two rounds were the only thing we disagreed. I gave Pac the 11th and scored the 12th even. Please watch the last two rounds again. I knew Marquez threw a lot of punches but I didn't think he landed that many. While Pac was suddenly jabbing and throwing hooks with his right and lead left hands. I remember Emmanuel Steward and Larry Merchant noticed how Pac was doing a great job defensively. And after the 11th Lampley (who I think had a huge bet for Marquez ;D) even added Marquez may have to knock Pacquiao out to win. I didn't think they will say those words if Marquez won the round convingly. same goes for the 12th. I think Marquez threw more punches but it's Pac defense and boxing that stood out to me.

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Originally Posted by the_pRoDiGy

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Originally Posted by ICB

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

Same score i had last time 114-113 Marquez, i thought Marquez pulled it out in the championship rounds.

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the last two rounds was the only thing we disagreed. I gave Pac the 11th and scored the 12th even. Please watch the last two rounds again. I knew Marquez threw a lot of punches but he didn't think he landed that many. While Pac was suddenly jabbing and throwing hooks with his right and lead left hands. I remember Emmanuel Steward and Larry Merchant noticed how Pac was doing a great job defensively. And after the 11th Lampley (who I think had a huge bet for Marquez ;D) even added Marquez may have to knock Pacquiao out to win. I don't think they will say those words if Marquez won the round convingly. same goes for the 12th. I think Marquez threw more punches but it's Pac defense and boxing that stood out to me.

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Manny Pacquiao may have been good defensively, but JMM carried the round being aggressive. And out punching Manny Pacquiao. I just watched the round again. And in the 2nd half of the round JMM controlled the round.

He landed some good right hands and a few thumping body shots, Manny Pacquiao fought too cautiously. And he allowed JMM to win the round being more aggressive and controlling a majority of the round.

As for the 12th round which im rewatching right now, JMM started off the round landing a nice uppercut then a right hand. Then some nice head/body shots. He clearly controlled the first half of the round.

Then Manny Pacquiao tried to comeback, but JMM got the better of the exchanges. He landed a good overhand right that drove Manny Pacquiao back to the ropes.

JMM just out fought Manny Pacquiao in the last two rounds, and he made Manny Pacquiao go on the backfoot for quite alot of those rounds aswell. I thought JMM clearly won the last 2 rounds tactically, and he clearly won them by out fighting Manny Pacquiao.

Those last 2 rounds wern't that close IMO, i thought JMM clearly had an edge in both of those rounds no question.

By the way i found my scorecard for the first fight.

1 Pacquiao 10-6
2 Pacquiao 10-9
3 Marquez 10-9
4 Marquez 10-9
5 Marquez 10-9
6 Marquez 10-9
7 Pacquiao 10-9
8 Marquez 10-9
9 Marquez 10-9
10 Pacquiao 10-9
11 Marquez 10-9
12 Marquez 10-9

114-113 Marquez

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by the_pRoDiGy

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Originally Posted by ICB

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

Same score i had last time 114-113 Marquez, i thought Marquez pulled it out in the championship rounds.

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the last two rounds was the only thing we disagreed. I gave Pac the 11th and scored the 12th even. Please watch the last two rounds again. I knew Marquez threw a lot of punches but he didn't think he landed that many. While Pac was suddenly jabbing and throwing hooks with his right and lead left hands. I remember Emmanuel Steward and Larry Merchant noticed how Pac was doing a great job defensively. And after the 11th Lampley (who I think had a huge bet for Marquez ;D) even added Marquez may have to knock Pacquiao out to win. I don't think they will say those words if Marquez won the round convingly. same goes for the 12th. I think Marquez threw more punches but it's Pac defense and boxing that stood out to me.

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Manny Pacquiao may have been good defensively, but JMM carried the round being aggressive. And out punching Manny Pacquiao. I just watched the round again. And in the 2nd half of the round JMM controlled the round.

He landed some good right hands and a few thumping body shots, Manny Pacquiao fought too cautiously. And he allowed JMM to win the round being more aggressive and controlling a majority of the round.

As for the 12th round which im rewatching right now, JMM started off the round landing a nice uppercut then a right hand. Then some nice head/body shots. He clearly controlled the first half of the round.

Then Manny Pacquiao tried to comeback, but JMM got the better of the exchanges. He landed a good overhand right that drove Manny Pacquiao back to the ropes.

JMM just out fought Manny Pacquiao in the last two rounds, and he made Manny Pacquiao go on the backfoot for quite alot of those rounds aswell. I thought JMM clearly won the last 2 rounds tactically, and he clearly won them by out fighting Manny Pacquiao.

Those last 2 rounds wern't that close IMO, i thought JMM clearly had an edge in both of those rounds no question.

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Fair play. But I guess we really have different perspectives. I just thought fans and some critics did gave those rounds to Marquez because of the perception that Pacquiao is only supposed to win a round when he completely mauls or scored a KD against Marquez. IMO he boxed beautifully in those rounds and that kinda caught the fans offguard and almost everyone bought on Marquez being the aggressor and they were left the impression that Pac faded or got tamed on the latter rounds. But I'm glad the judges agreed with me or should I say I agreed with them.

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Originally Posted by ICB

By the way i found my scorecard for the first fight.

1 Pacquiao 10-6
2 Pacquiao 10-9
3 Marquez 10-9
4 Marquez 10-9
5 Marquez 10-9
6 Marquez 10-9
7 Pacquiao 10-9
8 Marquez 10-9
9 Marquez 10-9
10 Pacquiao 10-9
11 Marquez 10-9
12 Marquez 10-9

114-113 Marquez

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This fight was a nightmare to score but I knew Marquez deserves to win this one. It may have been a draw but I didn't have any complaints when Marquez went home with the belts. After all I'm not a fan of Pacquiao back then. I rooted against him on the first couple Morales fights until the 3rd fight. I just prayed he won't kill my favorite fighter but I knew from then I'm starting to like the guy.

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Originally Posted by the_pRoDiGy

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Originally Posted by ICB

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

Same score i had last time 114-113 Marquez, i thought Marquez pulled it out in the championship rounds.

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the last two rounds were the only thing we disagreed. I gave Pac the 11th and scored the 12th even. Please watch the last two rounds again. I knew Marquez threw a lot of punches but I didn't think he landed that many. While Pac was suddenly jabbing and throwing hooks with his right and lead left hands. I remember Emmanuel Steward and Larry Merchant noticed how Pac was doing a great job defensively. And after the 11th Lampley (who I think had a huge bet for Marquez ;D) even added Marquez may have to knock Pacquiao out to win. I didn't think they will say those words if Marquez won the round convingly. same goes for the 12th. I think Marquez threw more punches but it's Pac defense and boxing that stood out to me.

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I have watched it so many times. I can actually play it in my mind, all's I need is just a bit of a reminder then I am transfixed back in my favorite armchair/sofa, watching it through my mind's eye.

That is the reason why without watching it, as soon as I saw your list and the rounds you favored Pac, and vice versa with JMM, I knew we saw the "same" fight. A lot of people with the least minimum bias will see it differently, not to say that I myself don’t have bias.

Of the rounds for Marquez, 1, 2, 5, 6, and 8; only round 2, where he rocked Manny and almost put his seat on the floor, and round 8, causing a gash in Manny’s face, temporarily blinding him, are decisive rounds for Marquez. All the rest were a one counterpunch, or one combination margin on each round.

I guess you make a case with round 4 for Pacquiao. However, 3 is a 10-8 for Pac with the knockdown, 7 was after the unintentional clashing of the heads, with Manny afterwards coming out peppering on the gash, 9 was a bounce back, clearly Marquez cautious and a bit gassed after the 8th. And lastly, like you pointed out, the 10th, almost saw JMM in his favorite rest’, the canvas bed.

As for the 11th and the 12th, I am to watch it up again, with particular attention to commentaries, yours and ICB’s.

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Originally Posted by the_pRoDiGy

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Originally Posted by ICB

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

Same score i had last time 114-113 Marquez, i thought Marquez pulled it out in the championship rounds.

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the last two rounds was the only thing we disagreed. I gave Pac the 11th and scored the 12th even. Please watch the last two rounds again. I knew Marquez threw a lot of punches but I didn't think he landed that many. While Pac was suddenly jabbing and throwing hooks with his right and lead left hands. I remember Emmanuel Steward and Larry Merchant noticed how Pac was doing a great job defensively. And after the 11th Lampley (who I think had a huge bet for Marquez ;D) even added Marquez may have to knock Pacquiao out to win. I don't think they will say those words if Marquez won the round convingly. same goes for the 12th. I think Marquez threw more punches but it's Pac defense and boxing that stood out to me.

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11th round is the crucial round here. If the 11th is changed in favor of pac on Ice's scorecard, you've got pac winning by 1 point. I think Taeth also has been pointing that out too. I had pac winning by 2 (and I'm a pretty fair fan 'cause I've always conceded here that Marquez won the 1st fight). I think 1 reason why many 'experts' at the ringside - yup, the same fellows who favored Oscar 19-1 against pac;D - gave Marquez the fight is that probably their impression of the 1st fight influenced their decision. I think pac won even when he was definitely dehydrated (look at weigh-in pics) and looked a bit wobbly at the later rounds on both the Marquez and Barrera rematches. Someone hinted that just before the fight on his thread and I sort of agreed with him on my post there. IMO, Marquez has no chance against strong pac - I mean pac without the weight problem. Nevertheless, I think Marquez still deserves another rematch just to settle the issue particularly for his fans, but the fight has to be at 140 as pac already said he can't go down to 135lb anymore. Or better yet, let Hatton and Marquez fight and let the winner take on pac. But at any rate, the tapes of the fight are there as evidence for the future guys to see who really won and there should be no doubt there, or at least there was no robbery, and I'm pretty comfortable with it.

Prodigy. Great analysis!

When it comes to the first fight, as many times as I've watched it, I've had a different outcome. It was that good of a fight. I think a draw was a good way to make everyone want a second fight.

The second fight I always have Manny winning by one point. I agree if either got the decision it would have been just as fair. I think the round I disagree on with most scorecards is round 1. I think Manny lands more punches than Marquez does. Juan lands the biggest punch of the round, but Manny controlled it for the most part.

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Originally Posted by the_pRoDiGy

I still can't believe how Pac dismantled Oscar and I got into this mood watching his exciting fights so I watched his last fight with Marquez again and IMO it seems like Pac really won. It was close when you look at the compubox numbers or Marquez should have even won if we looked at it punch for punch coz everytime Marquez landed his shots it was consecutive punches and was pretty and well timed plus Pac is out of balanced whenever he got hit.BUT.When I scored it round by round to me Pac clearly won.

rd 1. 10-9 Marquez
it was very close but got to give it to him for the tempo

rd 2. 10-9 Marquez
hit Pac with a great combo and a vicious left hook to end it

rd 3. 10-8 Pacquiao
scored a KD from a big left cross

rd 4. 10-9 Pacquiao
fed off the momentum of the KD

rd 5. 10-9 Marquez
recovered well and begins to connect with the right at will

rd 6. 10-9 Marquez
slow paced round and he landed the most telling shot

rd 7. 10-9 Pacquiao
accidental headbutt.a very close round but the tempo and the exchanges were in favor of him

rd 8. 10-9 Marquez
dominant round for him.connected big right hands that opened a cut on Pac's right eye.Pac was clearly bothered

rd 9. 10-9 Pacquiao
came back with his own connections of left hand that busted Marquez's right eye

rd 10. 10-9 Pacquiao
almost scored a KD and threw a barrage of flurries on a wobbled Marquez

rd 11. 10-9 Pacquiao
he seems to have figured out how to stay away from Marquez's right and sustained attacks continously

rd 12 10-10
Even.I can't say enough about this round. Marquez seems desperate and is throwing it all out but Pac is blocking almost all of it while still connecting even with less power. I initially gave it to Marquez but when I watched it again,like Manny Steward stated I too was impressed by how Pac defended the onslaught so I gave it to him. I can see why Lederman gave it to Pac. But most people say Marquez threw enough to get the round.Won't matter though IMO.

115-113 Pacquiao

IMO even if Marquez won the 12th he would have still lost because of the KD.

There were 3 very close rounds.(1, 7, 12) I scored the 1st for Marquez (HBO for Pac) the 7th in favor of Pac (everyone seems to agree) and the controversial 12th even.

But I if we give it all to Marquez he would win 7 rounds and may have salvaged a 114-113 win. If I give Pac those 3 close rounds he would win with comfortable 116-111 decision.

I think Marquez won in the CompuBox stats. and by how lopsided it looked during the rounds he won. Plus I think most people are assuming that because the fight went the distance it should have been Marquez's fight. Yes it was indeed a great gameplan by Marquez and he definitely made Pac looked most awkward and uncomfortable whenever they fight.But boxing is scored round by round so I don't think people should questioned Pac's victory saying Marquez got robbed. Let's give the man the credit he deserves and let's look at him as a fighter continually improving and entertaining us like he always does.


P.S.
I knew I'm still in awe from last saturday's fight but I think I didn't looked or sounded like a hugger. Do I liked Pacquiao? Yes.. but I'm not quite there yet. ;D

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I don't see how you gave 1 or two to Marquez, but I didn't have the last four 3-0-1 in favor of Pacquiao I thought Marquez won a round or two in tehre, all in all I had the same outcome, but my rounds are arranged differently.

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Originally Posted by ICB

By the way i found my scorecard for the first fight.

1 Pacquiao 10-6
2 Pacquiao 10-9
3 Marquez 10-9
4 Marquez 10-9
5 Marquez 10-9
6 Marquez 10-9
7 Pacquiao 10-9
8 Marquez 10-9
9 Marquez 10-9
10 Pacquiao 10-9
11 Marquez 10-9
12 Marquez 10-9

114-113 Marquez

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Pacquiao won more late rounds than that.

In the rematch.
Pacquiao clearly won a close fight, the knockdown seals it, IF that hadn't happened I could see it going either way, but it did, and made the close fight go clearly in PAcquiao's favor.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by ICB

By the way i found my scorecard for the first fight.

1 Pacquiao 10-6
2 Pacquiao 10-9
3 Marquez 10-9
4 Marquez 10-9
5 Marquez 10-9
6 Marquez 10-9
7 Pacquiao 10-9
8 Marquez 10-9
9 Marquez 10-9
10 Pacquiao 10-9
11 Marquez 10-9
12 Marquez 10-9

114-113 Marquez

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Pacquiao won more late rounds than that.

In the rematch.
Pacquiao clearly won a close fight, the knockdown seals it, IF that hadn't happened I could see it going either way, but it did, and made the close fight go clearly in PAcquiao's favor.

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Taeth thats your opinion doesn't mean its right, i've gave valid reasons why i thought JMM won the 2nd fight. I don't really want to watch the first fight again.

Just to give all my reasons, why i thought he won. But from my memory Manny Pacquiao. Clearly wasn't the fighter he was in the 2nd fight. He was much easier to hit, and one dimensional with his punches.

And i thought until the later rounds where he did make it more competitive. He got outboxed clearly for about 6 rounds, they were both very close fights that could of gone either way.

Im a bit suprised you clearly think Manny Pacquiao won the 2nd fight, considering most experts and fans have it no wider than 2 points either way. All in all i thought JMM won both fights end of really, your not going to change my opinion because i've watched the fights loads of times and i have the same score each time.

If you let the commentators sway your view for the 11th and the 12th, then you definitely will give both rounds to JMM. Actually if you do so, then even just after the 2nd round, right before the Marquez kissing the canvas, it was predicted, by one of the color commentators that Pacquiao will be knocked out. A biased statement as commentators is wont to do. Pacquiao would have already lost!

Now, if you watch it without audio, you will have it as prodigy’s… eleventh round for Pacquiao, and twelfth a draw.

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

If you let the commentators sway your view for the 11th and the 12th, then you definitely will give both rounds to JMM. Actually if you do so, then even just after the 2nd round, right before the Marquez kissing the canvas, it was predicted, by one of the color commentators that Pacquiao will be knocked out. A biased statement as commentators is wont to do. Pacquiao would have already lost!

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I've watched the fight with and without commentary, and what has the commentary got to do with this anyway ? i remember them clearly being on Manny Pacquiao's side not JMM's side.

Harold Ledderman had Manny Pacquiao winning, Emanuel Steward kept going on about how great Manny Pacquiao's upper body movement was. And his timing so i don't really see your point.

And even if they were on JMM's side which they wern't. I wouldn't listen anyway i've got my own views.

Marquez being” more aggressive” need be qualified. ..If it meant like not backpedalling is “being more aggressive” then it is then. They were forced to as Marquez need to get off his counter ways, as I am sure, their camp felt a deficit after the ninth and tenth.

However, the same Pacquiao is what you will see, did not change, still poking and punching.
If Pacquiao refusing to foolishly lunge and get caught is perceived as cautious, then let it be. It was in the judges eyes, enough to win, as what all they saw from Marquez was make it difficult for Pacquiao to knock him out.

I too will score round 1 for Pac. After reviewing it, and as was egged on by C-Lo’s post.
Round 1:
A lot of misses up until …
2:25, when a left right from Pacquiao landed but unseen through the eyes of Moe, Larry and Curly.
The initial left was blocked, but the right definitely landed on the jaw.
2:12 a lead left, landed from Pac. There is nothing much scoring for Marquez, up to this point.
1:11 they saw a phantom counter from JMM, and failed to see that prior to that…
1:12 a solid body punch landed with power, a right in the stomach, from Pac.
1:07, Marquez landed his only telling blow. Which to the “Three Scholars” was enough to win the round for Marquez.
0:56 a clash of heads.
0:32 A miss by Pac and a miss by JMM, opened up for a flurry; right, right, left hook, and right hook from Pacquiao mostly scoring but minimal damaging blows. Which was answered by…
0:30/0:29 Two JMM low blows. Right low blow connected, right hook miss, low uppercut low blow miss.
They exchanged some more misses and grazes, like the rest of round 1.

jmm looked more aggressive then usually especially in the 12 cause he knew he needed the round more then pac. Pac was just boxing him, some people at first thought jmm won cause pac didnt knock him out. those are casual fan way of scoring. Pacs defense was unnotice cause he usually stays on the offense. He block a lot of jmm punches and countered with better shots then jmm did him. Look at the 3rd round kd and the 10th round when jmm almost falls out of the ring. For some reason pac box during his last few fights at 130 the second mab fight and the second jmm fight. I think it was true he had trouble making 130 so he kept a slower pace and box instead of his usually tazmanian onslaught. Botton line it was a close match, and pacs boxing skill and defense is undderated. :)

1:07, Marquez landed his only telling blow. Which to the “Three Scholars” was enough to win the round for Marquez. It was a left right. The left was caught a bit on the gloves, but my, the right straight was beautifully placed, right smack on PacMan's face.

The fact that Pacquiao's improper balance and odd body language after receiving blows, made the smackers even more prominent.

So to Moe, Larry and Curly... score the round for Marquez. I guess their stock did not rise after that night.

And where off.......

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Originally Posted by ICB

And where off.......

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ice did you hear jmm say he is willing to come up to 147 to fight pac again? ;D these two have the best rivalry ever no fucking doubt. Its two of todays best with two needle thin close fights. Fucking legends :D

IMO Pacquiao needs to fight guys like Mayweather, Hatton, Cotto right now. I don't see him fighting JMM bringing that kind of attention and money to the sport as the other three.

Another thing I see is that Pacquiao obviously has troubles with JMM's style, but when fighting other guys Pacquiao is the superior fighter by a bit. I mean look at their back to back fights wtih Barrera, Pacquiao had that fight in the bag from round one, easily outboxing Marco. MAB-JMM was a close fight until close to the end when Barrera started getting tired, but it was competitive and close the whole way through. I honestly think JMM wouldn't have beaten Oscar even on that night, being orthodox, Oscar would have had no problems landing his jab on Marquez or his left hook, and I don't see JMM being able to deal with his power, Pacquiao was unorthodox enough to make Oscar miss, and have Oscar guessing, but JMM is a classic fighter, and Oscar and most boxers do better against that type of opponent.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

If you let the commentators sway your view for the 11th and the 12th, then you definitely will give both rounds to JMM. Actually if you do so, then even just after the 2nd round, right before the Marquez kissing the canvas, it was predicted, by one of the color commentators that Pacquiao will be knocked out. A biased statement as commentators is wont to do. Pacquiao would have already lost!

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I've watched the fight with and without commentary, and what has the commentary got to do with this anyway ? i remember them clearly being on Manny Pacquiao's side not JMM's side.

Harold Ledderman had Manny Pacquiao winning, Emanuel Steward kept going on about how great Manny Pacquiao's upper body movement was. And his timing so i don't really see your point.

And even if they were on JMM's side which they wern't. I wouldn't listen anyway i've got my own views.

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I viewed this intially PPV HBO version, but was unable to tape it. What I have is a DVD is from Solar Sports, most probably a feed from Top Rank. The color commentaries I am referring to are those from Allen Masengale, Wally Matthews, and Rich Marotta (guessed the spelling of their names)

HBO commentaries might have been impartial unlike the ones I've mentioned. So that volume lowering doesn't apply to you nor, other HBO influenced watchers. Wouldn't it be if they were from Top Rank, that they should have been doing the opposite?

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Originally Posted by Julius Rain

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICB

And where off.......

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ice did you hear jmm say he is willing to come up to 147 to fight pac again? ;D these two have the best rivalry ever no fucking doubt. Its two of todays best with two needle thin close fights. Fucking legends :D

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Im just glad im old enough to appreciate it.

I thought HBO was humping JMM's ass, saying that he was making Pacquiao look like an amateur, and Lampley kept on saying punches that were missing for JMM were scoring, and many times he didn't give Pacquiao credit for what he was landing.