Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
Just rewatching Pac v DLH, as cringeworthy as it is.... There is one spot where the commentators say "Why did so many ringside experts think it wasn't even a credible fight?" This is around the 3rd round when it is clear Manny is dominating, the complete opposite to what experts thought..
Emmanual Stewart replies "Because I thought he would come into the fight at about 160 pounds" obviously making the weight and size difference HUGE... But I mean, by the unofficial weighins on the night of the fight, DLH had barely put on 2 or 3 pounds since the weigh in.. Where even THERE he weighed less that most expected..
Do you think that maybe he thought that Pac's speed might be to much for him if he was a lot heavier, and maybe some sort of decision was made to not put on much more weight, to possibly assist speed??
I mean, DLH looked slow and lazy and nothing popped or snapped for him all night, so it did not help at all.... But you would have thought the only chance he would have WAS to go back up to at least 155 for the fight...
Obviously weighing the same weight as Manny at the fight, the 1to2 inch size differences weren't going to mean shit when you match up a prime ferocious fighter, against someone who's aging as DLH has been....
I know pac v dlh discussion has almost been beaten to death,,,, but just wondering anyone's thoughts on why DLH weighed so little on fight night??
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
I really doubt it was planned to come in weighing less on the night of the fight... THe fact that he only rehydrated a couple of pounds probably just tells you he was completely drained and didn't make weight properly.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
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Originally Posted by
p4pking
I really doubt it was planned to come in weighing less on the night of the fight... THe fact that he only rehydrated a couple of pounds probably just tells you he was completely drained and didn't make weight properly.
That was going to be my other option also,,, they just plain screwed up and didn't have a good plan and execute it properly.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
Yeah, Manny fought a great fight no doubt but even when Manny won other big fights, he never dominated another top level guy he beat like that. Oscar's age & dropping so much weight all worked against him that night to make Manny look spectacular. Of all the guys Oscar's fought, you'd expect maybe Hopkins to beat him that badly, not a guy coming up from 135.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
Oscar thought he could match Pac's speed by staying below 150. He was dead wrong. He did too many tactical mistakes too.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
You might be right there, Dizaztaaah. But according to the trainer himself, there was no weight issue both during the training and the fight (link below). He said they did very well in handling Oscar's weight. So it must have been just a case of an old boxer taking one fight too many and a young, extremely energetic fighter making him look more old than he usual is.
Nacho Speaks on De La Hoya's Weight, Pacquiao Loss - Boxing News
...The fact that he only put on two pounds sent signals that he killed his body to get down in weight. Nacho says there were no weight issues during camp. He said De La Hoya made the weight with no problems.
"This was a fight that should have been won. Oscar was able achieved a great physical condition during his training. I am a witness that he did not have problems with his weight and he was not dried out from the vapors [of a sauna]. During that time he had a nutritionist by his side who took charge of his weight and diet. But at the time of the fight he couldn't do things well. He couldn't deal with the versatility of Pacquiao," Nacho said.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
I think they treid to make him fight with the same game plan as Marquez, weight for Pacquiao to get off balance, but its Oscar wasn't changing the distance well enough, and he wasn't throwing punches in earnest. I definitely think he had the wrong strategy, I honestly thought he was going to fight similarly to how he fought Mayweather, and force Pacquiao backwards, but he really didn't do that often, though of course Pacquiao has extraordinarily fast feet so its not easy to chase him around ,but I thought Oscar would to that more, but he hardly used his jab at all, and despite an opponent being southpaw if he is 4 inches shorter you should be using it, if not for anything else, to keep the distance stop the opponent from coming in. Oscar's jab made it difficult for Mayweather to stand his ground, but against Pacquiao he wasn't snapping it at all.
I could also see this being that Pacquiao's feet were just too quick, he was always moving around, not letting Oscar get into a rythm, and his punches were being felt. Everytime OScar moved forward Pacquiao would move back then use lateral movement and Oscar couldn't really catch him, my problem is he didn't really try to follow up very much.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
I am of the firm belief that it was not an issue on weight. Pacquaio was just too fast and better in terms of skill.
As I have said in other thread, people are underrating Pacquaio's skills coz he's an awkward fighter. People misconstrue it as being easily beatable.
They're even laughing before at Pac's defense. So underrated that's why he surprises many. Barrera lost because he was also underrating Pac. Morales did not make that mistake during the first fight. He made that mistake during the second fight thinking he can cope up with Pac (Pac's had been improving in terms of skill during that time) so he was demolished by Pac. Marquez is not underrating Pac that's why he comes up with a very admirable fight against Pac.
Diaz underrated him and met the same fate as Marco and Morales. Same with DLH who was put to shame for underrating Pac.
Hatton should not make that mistake if he wants to win over Pac.
Mayweather may be in for a surprise if he underrates Pac... and I am absolutely sure with that.:cool:
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
Certainly, I don't think it was weight issues that lost Oscar the fight.. I think Pac would have won whatever weight... I was just wondering if the fact he didn't put on weight after the weighin was planned to give him a little more speed... All his team said he was fine with the weight,, and maybe that is a part of why he didn't bother to put weight back on after the weigh in, because he was settled there, and thought that as long as he was comfortable at that weight and not drained etc, then he should probably stay at a lower weight for the possible speed advantages....
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dizaster
I know pac v dlh discussion has almost been beaten to death,,,, but just wondering anyone's thoughts on why DLH weighed so little on fight night??
I think there are 3 possible explanations for Oscar's weight:
1. He wanted to be as fast as possible, and he thought the best way to do that was to be as light as possible
2. His body reacted adversely to the process of draining down to 147, and caused him problems when he attempted to rehydrate (this was Roach's theory)
3. There had been so much talk about this fight being a mismatch, that Oscar wanted to prove he was the better man, not just a bigger man. He intentionally came in light because he wanted to be able to say, "Look, he actually outweighed me in the ring, and I still beat him."
I could believe any of those 3. If it's #2, then I can't blame Oscar. If it's #1 or #3, then he made a stupid decision and he has no one to blame but himself.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
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Originally Posted by
SweetPea
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dizaster
I know pac v dlh discussion has almost been beaten to death,,,, but just wondering anyone's thoughts on why DLH weighed so little on fight night??
I think there are 3 possible explanations for Oscar's weight:
1. He wanted to be as fast as possible, and he thought the best way to do that was to be as light as possible
2.
His body reacted adversely to the process of draining down to 147, and caused him problems when he attempted to rehydrate (this was Roach's theory)
3. There had been so much talk about this fight being a mismatch, that Oscar wanted to prove he was the better man, not just a bigger man. He intentionally came in light because he wanted to be able to say, "Look, he actually outweighed me in the ring, and I still beat him."
I could believe any of those 3. If it's #2, then I can't blame Oscar. If it's #1 or #3, then he made a stupid decision and he has no one to blame but himself.
I do believe on #2...
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
I believe in #2 too because has anyone EVER seen Oscar look that bad/slow before? Has Manny made any other top fighter he faced look THAT bad before? If that was the 1st time you saw Oscar fight, would you believe that guy was a gold medal winner & had won titles in a # of different weight classes?
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
I was surprised he weighed what he did on fight night, that was a bit amiss. Oscar was crap left, right and centre. He didnt even know how to use his leverage and jab. He was beyond atrocious and to be honest I have never seen a "top" fighter get so taken apart.
There was certainly no speed there.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
Not a weight issue at all.
I guess in the last few fights of Pacquiao, he has shown to possess two incredibly differrent styles of fighting. It seemingly is impossible, as it runs counter to all existing boxing adages, but it is there, as we all have witnessed.
Obviously, the transformation is an adjusment for a conceived inferior skillset when pitted against that of JMM's. Against JMM he had won from pure willpower, as a few posters here have pointed out.
Anyway the new version was first in full exhibit against David Diaz, then, continued on to the Dream Match, with DeLaHoya. In fact, a semblance of that style was tested in the Velasquez fight, a prototype if you will.
What I'm getting at is that the DeLaHoya team prepared for the Pacquiao of old, but wary of the new version... as Pac really looked very good against Diaz. Reason enough that they wanted to be lighter so as to have mobility when Pac boxed him, which Oscar coincidentally hates.
Rude awakening, as they found out the new versioin is for real and quite formidable. Oscar was unable to cope, much like Diaz found out.
Much like anyone will, in the future if they dont prepare against ; Pac, the boxer, as opposed to Pac, the awkward slugger.
Can you imagine Pac boxing, with that right hand active, delivering more power than an ordinary jab, and still have the lead and straight left, for KO power on reserve! That is an incredible feat to adjust to, on the fly. DeLaHoya, however good he is, was not up to it that night.
So it was not a weight issue at all, it was being outfought due to being outprepared!
Score one for Roach, and the Pac team!
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
Sorry, to the TS, got swept there...
It was not a weight issue, but indeed partially true that they have aimed for speed. However not totally dedicated to it tho'. As the result have indicated.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
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Originally Posted by
miles
I was surprised he weighed what he did on fight night, that was a bit amiss. Oscar was crap left, right and centre. He didnt even know how to use his leverage and jab. He was beyond atrocious and to be honest I have never seen a "top" fighter get so taken apart.
There was certainly no speed there.
Exactly, NOBODY made Oscar look even close to that bad before. Some of it was Manny to be sure but how many guys would have looked good/great against the Oscar we saw last Sat. night?
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
Weight problem is pretty easy to detect. If a fighter dehydrates himself for the weigh-in, he would naturally have to re-hydrate himself about 7 or more pounds by the time of the fight. So a dehydrated fighter would have gained at least 7lbs after the weigh-in. Good examples are Morales who went 130lbs for the weigh-in and came in about 150lb for the fights, and pac himself in his last couple fights for 130lbs; he went 130lbs for the weigh-in and came in near 150lbs for the fight - that explains why he decided to go up two weight classes for good just in a year. Oscar gained only 2lbs and as his trainer strongly emphasized, there was absolutely no weight issue in that fight. Maybe it was just a plain old aging mechanism at work or something else. No doubt he looked like an old man.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Weight problem is pretty easy to detect. If a fighter dehydrates himself for the weigh-in, he would naturally have to re-hydrate himself about 7 or more pounds by the time of the fight. So a dehydrated fighter would have gained at least 7lbs after the weigh-in. Good examples are Morales who went 130lbs for the weigh-in and came in about 150lb for the fights, and pac himself in his last couple fights for 130lbs; he went 130lbs for the weigh-in and came in near 150lbs for the fight - that explains why he decided to go up two weight classes for good just in a year. Oscar gained only 2lbs and as his trainer strongly emphasized, there was absolutely no weight issue in that fight. Maybe it was just a plain old aging mechanism at work or something else. No doubt he looked like an old man.
Oscar's stomach shrunk that's why he only gained 2 lbs.
And he was blocking Pac's left hand with his face. Almost kinda like protecting his right hand with face.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
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Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Weight problem is pretty easy to detect. If a fighter dehydrates himself for the weigh-in, he would naturally have to re-hydrate himself about 7 or more pounds by the time of the fight. So a dehydrated fighter would have gained at least 7lbs after the weigh-in. Good examples are Morales who went 130lbs for the weigh-in and came in about 150lb for the fights, and pac himself in his last couple fights for 130lbs; he went 130lbs for the weigh-in and came in near 150lbs for the fight - that explains why he decided to go up two weight classes for good just in a year. Oscar gained only 2lbs and as his trainer strongly emphasized, there was absolutely no weight issue in that fight. Maybe it was just a plain old aging mechanism at work or something else. No doubt he looked like an old man.
Oscar's stomach shrunk that's why he only gained 2 lbs.
His trainers said they had him at weight weeks before the fight. I don't think that they were that low, but they were close. That is why he didn't put on weight. Most fighters don't get down to fighting weight till right before the fight, but with a $3mil penalty for every pound he was over Oscar couldn't afford to do this. He HAD to make 147. He only put on 2 lbs. because he only cut 4-5lbs. He was 149-150 the day before the weigh in.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SweetPea
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dizaster
I know pac v dlh discussion has almost been beaten to death,,,, but just wondering anyone's thoughts on why DLH weighed so little on fight night??
I think there are 3 possible explanations for Oscar's weight:
1. He wanted to be as fast as possible, and he thought the best way to do that was to be as light as possible
2. His body reacted adversely to the process of draining down to 147, and caused him problems when he attempted to rehydrate (this was Roach's theory)
3. There had been so much talk about this fight being a mismatch, that Oscar wanted to prove he was the better man, not just a bigger man. He intentionally came in light because he wanted to be able to say, "Look, he actually outweighed me in the ring, and I still beat him."
I could believe any of those 3. If it's #2, then I can't blame Oscar. If it's #1 or #3, then he made a stupid decision and he has no one to blame but himself.
Intention I'd say a bit of both 1 and 3 thinking if its even then experience will overcome whats left in the age gap with added speed and reactions;
Got caught out by No 2, not to take anything away from Mannys, strength speed and skill, all of it killed off 1 and three.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dizaster
Just rewatching Pac v DLH, as cringeworthy as it is.... There is one spot where the commentators say "Why did so many ringside experts think it wasn't even a credible fight?" This is around the 3rd round when it is clear Manny is dominating, the complete opposite to what experts thought..
Emmanual Stewart replies "Because I thought he would come into the fight at about 160 pounds" obviously making the weight and size difference HUGE... But I mean, by the unofficial weighins on the night of the fight, DLH had barely put on 2 or 3 pounds since the weigh in.. Where even THERE he weighed less that most expected..
Do you think that maybe he thought that Pac's speed might be to much for him if he was a lot heavier, and maybe some sort of decision was made to not put on much more weight, to possibly assist speed??
I mean, DLH looked slow and lazy and nothing popped or snapped for him all night, so it did not help at all.... But you would have thought the only chance he would have WAS to go back up to at least 155 for the fight...
Obviously weighing the same weight as Manny at the fight, the 1to2 inch size differences weren't going to mean shit when you match up a prime ferocious fighter, against someone who's aging as DLH has been....
I know pac v dlh discussion has almost been beaten to death,,,, but just wondering anyone's thoughts on why DLH weighed so little on fight night??
They just messed up with the weight i think. 2lbs between the weigh in and fight night suggests that he hasn't re-hydrated properly nor has he stocked up on glycogen, to give him the energy to fight. Maybe he was ill.
I don't think his team are stupid enough to think that being 'lighter' is the only factor affecting speed. Going by that analogy Usain Bolt would also go into his races 10lbs lighter - thus making him faster than a greyhound.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ky7le
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pacfan
Weight problem is pretty easy to detect. If a fighter dehydrates himself for the weigh-in, he would naturally have to re-hydrate himself about 7 or more pounds by the time of the fight. So a dehydrated fighter would have gained at least 7lbs after the weigh-in. Good examples are Morales who went 130lbs for the weigh-in and came in about 150lb for the fights, and pac himself in his last couple fights for 130lbs; he went 130lbs for the weigh-in and came in near 150lbs for the fight - that explains why he decided to go up two weight classes for good just in a year. Oscar gained only 2lbs and as his trainer strongly emphasized, there was absolutely no weight issue in that fight. Maybe it was just a plain old aging mechanism at work or something else. No doubt he looked like an old man.
Oscar's stomach shrunk that's why he only gained 2 lbs.
His trainers said they had him at weight weeks before the fight. I don't think that they were that low, but they were close. That is why he didn't put on weight. Most fighters don't get down to fighting weight till right before the fight, but with a $3mil penalty for every pound he was over Oscar couldn't afford to do this. He HAD to make 147. He only put on 2 lbs. because he only cut 4-5lbs. He was 149-150 the day before the weigh in.
On 24/7 he weighed in at 155lbs before a sparring session and that was apparently only 2 weeks out. Either way, they fucked up big time.
Re: Did Oscar maybe aim for speed??
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As I have said in other thread, people are underrating Pacquaio's skills coz he's an awkward fighter.
People also seem to forget that ODLH is old, worned out, passed his prime, drained, has nothing left, etc. EVEN PAC AND HIS TEAM ACKNOWLEDGED THIS.
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Diaz underrated him
Why even big Diaz to the picture? David who? In that case then Serikzhan Yeshmagambetov or Fahsan Battery also underrated him. I am surprised people mention David Diaz as one of Pac's greatest achievements. I just don't get it.
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I have never seen a "top" fighter get so taken apart.
I have: Ali vs Bebick, Leonard vs Norris or Camacho, Chavez vs ODLH, Tyson vs McBride, etc. It's not so much that a great boxer beat them but more about staying in the ring longer than they should. A young prospect can take advantage of those opportunities. A great opportunity for a big check and to add a big name in the resume.
