Berto - Collazo point deduction.

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that while I thought it might have been a little quick, maybe Berto deserved another warning, it was completely justified. Berto was doing a lot of holding early on and he was warned repeatedly by the ref and he was using it to negate the fact that Collazo was outboxing him. Personally, I find it incredibly frustrating to watch a fight in which one (or both) fighters are allowed to hold and spoil. A moderate amount of holding, I'm fine with - and it's certainly understandable when a fighter is hurt - but I really think that steps should be taken to reduce its prevelence. It takes away from the excitement of boxing and it's against the rules.

Now, my problem with the deduction isn't the deduction itself, but rather that it goes against modern convention where fighters (*cough* Ricky Hatton *cough*) are allowed to use holding as part of their offensive/defensive tactics. I can see why people are upset about the deduction because of that reason. There are many double standards in boxing and more uniformity in the way fights are reffed would be wonderful. I honestly wish more fights were reffed the way this one was; holding is against the rules and it should be punished.

Ok, now go ahead and tell me I'm a fucking idiot :).

Berto was never hurt in the fight, but its part of the game, there are guys who get away with way more holding in fights. Its not amateur boxing. If the ref wasn't so terrible he would have watched Berto in his other fights and realize that Berto usually takes time to warm up on the inside. The ref was horrible.

It isn't just Hatton or Berto that use holding

L. Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko, Tyson, Holyfield, Mayweather, Hopkins, Duran, Marciano, Saddler, Ali,... the list goes on of guys who used holding either offensively or defensively to their advantage.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Berto was never hurt in the fight, but its part of the game, there are guys who get away with way more holding in fights. Its not amateur boxing. If the ref wasn't so terrible he would have watched Berto in his other fights and realize that Berto usually takes time to warm up on the inside. The ref was horrible.

It isn't just Hatton or Berto that use holding

L. Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko, Tyson, Holyfield, Mayweather, Hopkins, Duran, Marciano, Saddler, Ali,... the list goes on of guys who used holding either offensively or defensively to their advantage.

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I agree with that, it's impossible not to, that's why I feel people are justified in complaining about the deduction. I'm just saying I wish it wasn't so prevalent. A moderate amount of holding doesn't bother me, it's part of the game, but when a fighter is using it to spoil and negate his opponents offense on a regular basis it bothers me and I feel it should be punished after a suitable amount of warnings, which doesn't happen as frequently as I would like it to.

Honestly compared to some of the best fighters ever he wasn't holding that much, if you watch a lot of orthodox vs southpaw matches you will see it happens way more because when you really come in what that cross you usually get tangled up. Collazo coming in so close there was nothing Berto could do to get off effective punches so he did hold, and sometimes its just a natural reaction when people come together really quikcly. I think its also a great way to stop people from throwing little meaningless punches like shoe shining, I think a fight can be just as ugly without holding if its fought with poorly thrown punches that are all smothered.

Hatton holds far worse than that in every fight and he never hardly gets even a warning.

I do think the point was just a tad quick but believe it would have happened none the less.Berto has a very bad habit of leaning in with open arms,just drapes himself on a guy?Have seen him do it alot.Some guys are so seasoned,they clasp in a way but keep the opposite arm working.Also depends alot on the ref.

Berto doesn't do that though, I saw Collazo hitting durign the clinch with the opposite hand way more than Berto and compubox was scoring those punches. I liked when Hopkins used to do that because he would still be landing sharp effective punches, when Collazo or Calzaghe do it, they are just slapping for points. Regardless like I said southpaw vs orthodox=a lot of clinches because they get tangled up, especially when both of them like to fight on the inside.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Berto doesn't do that though, I saw Collazo hitting durign the clinch with the opposite hand way more than Berto and compubox was scoring those punches. I liked when Hopkins used to do that because he would still be landing sharp effective punches, when Collazo or Calzaghe do it, they are just slapping for points. Regardless like I said southpaw vs orthodox=a lot of clinches because they get tangled up, especially when both of them like to fight on the inside.

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Thats Bertos greenness showing on the inside.He wears his emotions very readable ,if that makes sence ?Collazo and more experienced guys can position themselves to their opponent as well as a ref at times...cagey/seasoned

If he was holding like Henry Akinwande against Lenox Lewis then its a point deduction but he wasn't.

Clinching is part of the game - why do ref's say "No hitting on the break"

Tyson used to hold in his heyday and didn't get points taken off - its part of boxing.

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Originally Posted by CFH

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that while I thought it might have been a little quick, maybe Berto deserved another warning, it was completely justified. Berto was doing a lot of holding early on and he was warned repeatedly by the ref and he was using it to negate the fact that Collazo was outboxing him. Personally, I find it incredibly frustrating to watch a fight in which one (or both) fighters are allowed to hold and spoil. A moderate amount of holding, I'm fine with - and it's certainly understandable when a fighter is hurt - but I really think that steps should be taken to reduce its prevelence. It takes away from the excitement of boxing and it's against the rules.

Now, my problem with the deduction isn't the deduction itself, but rather that it goes against modern convention where fighters (*cough* Ricky Hatton *cough*) are allowed to use holding as part of their offensive/defensive tactics. I can see why people are upset about the deduction because of that reason. There are many double standards in boxing and more uniformity in the way fights are reffed would be wonderful. I honestly wish more fights were reffed the way this one was; holding is against the rules and it should be punished.

Ok, now go ahead and tell me I'm a fucking idiot :).

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Ricky Hatton held much more against Luis Collazo, and i don't think he was warned once from my memory. Andre Berto held a bit too much early on, but come on that was a bit quick. He only gave him one quick warning then he took a point ?

I thought it was for certain too quick it wasn't like Andre Berto was spoiling. I thought the ref was an idiot for making that call IMO, he didn't need to do and all he did was almost cost Andre Berto the fight not fair at all IMO.

If Holding is part of the game then it wouldn't have been penalized. Holding has been penalized throughout the history of boxing. Holding for dear life after being badly hurt is tolerated, but holding to gain a physical adbvantage was never tolerated, very much, in the past. Holders of the past mostly always got points deducted.

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Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer

If Holding is part of the game then it wouldn't have been penalized. Holding has been penalized throughout the history of boxing. Holding for dear life after being badly hurt is tolerated, but holding to gain a physical adbvantage was never tolerated, very much, in the past. Holders of the past mostly always got points deducted.

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How many times did Muhammad Ali hold his opponents around the back of the neck ? i never see him once get a point deduction.

Everyone is missing the point. The point is that there needs to be a crackdown on holding by EVERYONE. Take away what happened last night, why has Wlad gotten away with his act for so long without warning? He holds EVERYTIME on the inside that is not fair, it's against the rules and should be punished. It wouldn't be a problem if there were more deductions across the board. Every fighter has the ability to punch rather then clinch. On the inside it's not necessary to hold tell them to go watch Corrales-Castillo, that was such a great fight because both guys seemed to have a mutual agreement not to hold and it worked out.

Holding in boxing needs to go.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Berto doesn't do that though, I saw Collazo hitting durign the clinch with the opposite hand way more than Berto and compubox was scoring those punches. I liked when Hopkins used to do that because he would still be landing sharp effective punches, when Collazo or Calzaghe do it, they are just slapping for points. Regardless like I said southpaw vs orthodox=a lot of clinches because they get tangled up, especially when both of them like to fight on the inside.

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Thats Bertos greenness showing on the inside.He wears his emotions very readable ,if that makes sence ?Collazo and more experienced guys can position themselves to their opponent as well as a ref at times...cagey/seasoned

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His biggest problem is that he squares up and drops his hands like he is throwing some superman punch which leaves him wide open and off balance, if he stayed in his "Mayweatheresque" stance and let things flow naturally on the inside or kept a sustained combination going ala RJJ then he would be fine, but Roy only squared up when his opponent was on the ropes or he was in the in the middle of a 10 punch combination to which there could be no answer. Berto if anything needs to relax.

I think holding is bad when its done like John Ruiz does it, or like Holyfield did against Tyson where he used clinching then punching to land most of his shots. I think refs especially in the Mayweather-Hatton fight ruin fights by trying to get too involved in the fight, the best refs only stop things when they are getting out of hand, but that ref was on a power trip all night, and he ref'ed horribly as a result of that.

Can somebody post me where I find a copy, please?
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by amat

Everyone is missing the point. The point is that there needs to be a crackdown on holding by EVERYONE. Take away what happened last night, why has Wlad gotten away with his act for so long without warning? He holds EVERYTIME on the inside that is not fair, it's against the rules and should be punished. It wouldn't be a problem if there were more deductions across the board. Every fighter has the ability to punch rather then clinch. On the inside it's not necessary to hold tell them to go watch Corrales-Castillo, that was such a great fight because both guys seemed to have a mutual agreement not to hold and it worked out.

Holding in boxing needs to go.

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That is what I was trying to get at with this thread.

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Originally Posted by amat

Everyone is missing the point. The point is that there needs to be a crackdown on holding by EVERYONE. Take away what happened last night, why has Wlad gotten away with his act for so long without warning? He holds EVERYTIME on the inside that is not fair, it's against the rules and should be punished. It wouldn't be a problem if there were more deductions across the board. Every fighter has the ability to punch rather then clinch. On the inside it's not necessary to hold tell them to go watch Corrales-Castillo, that was such a great fight because both guys seemed to have a mutual agreement not to hold and it worked out.

Holding in boxing needs to go.

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this isn't the amateurs though, Clinching has always been a part of proffesional boxing illegal or not. Sometimes when people get in close there is no choice but to clinch, and still a fight can be very exciting, I mean Ali-Frazier was one of the best trilogies ever, and they had a lot of clinching. Leonard-Duran I was way more exciting than Leonard-Duran II and they had a way more clinching in the first fight. I think sometimes it makes a fight a lot better because guys feel more comfortable being able to use their hands on the inside.