Who is the greatest ever Featherweight?

This is a topic I have been thinking about for quite a while now and it's got me wondering... Just who is the greatest ever Featherweight in boxing history?

A lot of the so called experts seem to go for Willie Pep but there is not that much of him on film to really convince me. I mean I know he was a defensive master but I think I'd have loved to see more of him so I can make a clearer decision.

Another one who seems to get a lot of accolades is Sandy Saddler who beat Pep a few time I think! But again not enough film or at least I don't seem to be able to find much.

No for me to honestly say they are the greatest feathers I have ever seen I would have had to see quite a bit of them which leads me to my vote Salvador Sanchez. I've seen enough of him to say I think he would pretty much beat any other feather I have seen since.

Problem is Featherweight is a division that has been crammed with class over the years with names such as Azumah Nelson, Vincente Saldivar, Wilfredo Gomez, Henry Armstrong (another who I haven't seen an awful lot of), Eusebio Pedroza, Erik Morales and Barrera amongst others of more recent fighters.

I know that the problem with my choice is basically he didn't have the longevity due to his tragic early death but there was still enough fights for him to prove his worth to me.

Anyway I'd just like to know who you guys think is the greatest Feather in history? Sorry if I missed anyones favourite in my list but I didn't have all day!

Sanchez

Sandy Sadler

Marco Antonio Barrera

You are all wrong. It was Hank Armstrong.
Then Pep
then Pacquiao

Top 10 in no order from fighters i've seen enough of.


Salvador Sanchez
Naseem Hamed
Eusebio Pedroza
Alexis Arguello
Azumah Nelson
Juan Manuel Marquez
Vincente Saldivar = Recently been able to get some footage of him
Danny Lopez
Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera

Guys like Luisito Espinosa, Tom Johnson, deserve a mention aswell. Infact you could place those 2 fighters on the list, because they made many title defenses. But mine was just a quick list not very thought out, i'll make a better one later.

Azumah Nelson

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Originally Posted by ICB

Top 10 in no order from fighters i've seen enough of.


Salvador Sanchez
Naseem Hamed
Eusebio Pedroza
Alexis Arguello
Azumah Nelson
Juan Manuel Marquez
Vincente Saldivar = Recently been able to get some footage of him
Danny Lopez
Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera

Guys like Luisito Espinosa, Tom Johnson, deserve a mention aswell. Infact you could place those 2 fighters on the list, because they made many title defenses. But mine was just a quick list not very thought out, i'll make a better one later.

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I've watched Luisito's fights and I can put him up there.:cool:

it would be Pac, Arguello,Nelson,Sanchez,Lopez, Barrera,Hamed, Morales for me.

I can't believe you mention Espinosa but not Pac.:-\

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Originally Posted by brucelee

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Originally Posted by ICB

Top 10 in no order from fighters i've seen enough of.


Salvador Sanchez
Naseem Hamed
Eusebio Pedroza
Alexis Arguello
Azumah Nelson
Juan Manuel Marquez
Vincente Saldivar = Recently been able to get some footage of him
Danny Lopez
Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera

Guys like Luisito Espinosa, Tom Johnson, deserve a mention aswell. Infact you could place those 2 fighters on the list, because they made many title defenses. But mine was just a quick list not very thought out, i'll make a better one later.

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I've watched Luisito's fights and I can put him up there.:cool:

it would be Pac, Arguello,Nelson,Sanchez,Lopez, Barrera,Hamed, Morales for me.

I can't believe you mention Espinosa but not Pac.:-\

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whats hard to believe? just because you put pac on a pedestal doesnt mean he is the greatest feather weight.

I would have Prince NAseem on their not pacman, pacman has never stayed at 1 weight that long.

Overall its Pep for me... but from those I've seen a lot of then its Sanchez!

Based on what I've seen, what I've read/ researched my top 5 would be:

Pep
Armstrong
Sandler
Miller
Kid Chocolate

I'll start of by saying that Henry, Kid Chocolate, Alexis, Erik, MAB and Pac all did better at different divisions there for I rate them in those divisions, accordingly.

As usual on my lists you will not see any names of fighters I've not seen with my own eyes. You will see fighters I've seen a handful of fights on and know well...

With that in mind here's how I see it.

1. "Chava" Sanchez
2. JMM
3. Azumah
4. Saldivar
5. Pedroza
6. "Springfield Rifle" Moore
7. "Sugar" Ramos
8. Naz
9. "Little Red" Lopez
10. J. Famechon

Honors: "Ñato" Marcel, Winstone, Luisito, "Mantecas" Medina, Baby Arizmendi & Jorge Paez.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

I'll start of by saying that Henry, Kid Chocolate, Alexis, Erik, MAB and Pac all did better at different divisions there for I rate them in those divisions, accordingly.

As usual on my lists you will not see any names of fighters I've not seen with my own eyes. You will see fighters I've seen a handful of fights on and know well...

With that in mind here's how I see it.

1. "Chava" Sanchez
2. JMM
3. Azumah
4. Saldivar
5. Pedroza
6. "Springfield Rifle" Moore
7. "Sugar" Ramos
8. Naz
9. "Little Red" Lopez
10. J. Famechon

Honors: "Ñato" Marcel, Winstone, Luisito, "Mantecas" Medina, Baby Arizmendi & Jorge Paez.

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Come on Johnny Famechon!

Sanchez
Marquez
Morales

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Originally Posted by brucelee

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Originally Posted by ICB

Top 10 in no order from fighters i've seen enough of.


Salvador Sanchez
Naseem Hamed
Eusebio Pedroza
Alexis Arguello
Azumah Nelson
Juan Manuel Marquez
Vincente Saldivar = Recently been able to get some footage of him
Danny Lopez
Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera

Guys like Luisito Espinosa, Tom Johnson, deserve a mention aswell. Infact you could place those 2 fighters on the list, because they made many title defenses. But mine was just a quick list not very thought out, i'll make a better one later.

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I've watched Luisito's fights and I can put him up there.:cool:

it would be Pac, Arguello,Nelson,Sanchez,Lopez, Barrera,Hamed, Morales for me.

I can't believe you mention Espinosa but not Pac.:-\

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Manny Pacquiao to my knowledge only had like 2 or 3 fights at Featherweight, he was better at other divisions. I don't think he deserves a spot in the top 10 Featherweights of all time based on a few fights.

As for Roberto's comment i only listed the fighters i have seen enough of like you. I listed fighters like Erik Morales, MAB, Alexis Arguello, because i couldn't think of anyone else really.

I know they were better at other weightclasses but fighters like Sugar Ramos, and ETC. I haven't seen or i haven't seen enough of, so i just added MAB, Erik Morales, Alexis Arguello to fill the top 10 in. Because there the fighters i know enough of to list.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

I'll start of by saying that Henry, Kid Chocolate, Alexis, Erik, MAB and Pac all did better at different divisions there for I rate them in those divisions, accordingly.

As usual on my lists you will not see any names of fighters I've not seen with my own eyes. You will see fighters I've seen a handful of fights on and know well...

With that in mind here's how I see it.

1. "Chava" Sanchez
2. JMM
3. Azumah
4. Saldivar
5. Pedroza
6. "Springfield Rifle" Moore
7. "Sugar" Ramos
8. Naz
9. "Little Red" Lopez
10. J. Famechon

Honors: "Ñato" Marcel, Winstone, Luisito, "Mantecas" Medina, Baby Arizmendi & Jorge Paez.

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Yeah but Mick the title of the thread says greatest ever! Not who you seen!

So for me its Pep!

Can I ask why you don't rate those others at this weight?

Armstrong started & fought at feather for 8 years! Most of his wins came at this weight. He was even named fighter of the year in '37 whilst still at feather. He beat guys like Sarron, Wright, Arizmendi. Armstrongs record at feather is just as good if not better than at welter!

Miller just look at his numbers & who he fought & beat at feather!

Chocolate was probably a better Jr Lightweight but he was an awesome feather too & at his best he would have hung with any featherweight in history!

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Yeah but Mick the title of the thread says greatest ever! Not who you seen! So for me its Pep!
Can I ask why you don't rate those others at this weight?

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Def. Galaxy I read the title of the thread.
I can't and wont argue if people want to rate fighters like Pep, Saddler, Bassey, Miller etc. etc. Everyone has their own reasons and ways to compiling a list.
I don't rate them because how can I compare what I see on my screen (as far as names, wins and loses vs. someone whom my eyes have seen fight I see what they can do and what they can't do). I can only read how good these fighters were. As I've said before these articles/reports were written hundreds of years ago by not so acredited writers. I also remember reading a report on SRR fight by 2 different writers during his career in the 1940s and the 2 writers told almost 2 differend fights it was like they both had seen 2 different fights, now mind you this was the 1940 now imagine articles/reports from the 1800's & 1900's? These guys could exaggerate and write just about anything. I don't argue the fact that they werent great fighters like Greb, Loughran, McVea you name them but how do we REALLY know these writters didn't exaggerate?

Which is why I would just rather stick to fighters I've seen fights of and know about. It's just my opinion and how I rate fighters. I can't compare a fighter I've seen vs. A fighter I've read about that to me is impossible and I refuse to go by someone elses words. I'd rather let my own eyes and mind decide.

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Armstrong started & fought at feather for 8 years! Most of his wins came at this weight. He was even named fighter of the year in '37 whilst still at feather. He beat guys like Sarron, Wright, Arizmendi. Armstrongs record at feather is just as good if not better than at welter!

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I've just always been more impressed with Henrys work as a Welterweight I def. agree that his work at Feather is top caliber but I'm more pleasead with his work at the other weight and I've rated him as such.
Maybe it's time I give Henrys career at Feather a 2nd look.

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Miller just look at his numbers & who he fought & beat at feather!

Chocolate was probably a better Jr Lightweight but he was an awesome feather too & at his best he would have hung with any featherweight in history!

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Miller I've not seen enough of to have him listed...
I can def. see by his career he was def. a top fighter but numbers and names can only tell you so much...
Chocolate was def. a better Jr. Light his opposition there and record exceeds that of his Feather career.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Yeah but Mick the title of the thread says greatest ever! Not who you seen! So for me its Pep!
Can I ask why you don't rate those others at this weight?

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Def. Galaxy I read the title of the thread.
I can't and wont argue if people want to rate fighters like Pep, Saddler, Bassey, Miller etc. etc. Everyone has their own reasons and ways to compiling a list.
I don't rate them because how can I compare what I see on my screen (as far as names, wins and loses vs. someone whom my eyes have seen fight I see what they can do and what they can't do). I can only read how good these fighters were. As I've said before these articles/reports were written hundreds of years ago by not so acredited writers. I also remember reading a report on SRR fight by 2 different writers during his career in the 1940s and the 2 writers told almost 2 differend fights it was like they both had seen 2 different fights, now mind you this was the 1940 now imagine articles/reports from the 1800's & 1900's? These guys could exaggerate and write just about anything. I don't argue the fact that they werent great fighters like Greb, Loughran, McVea you name them but how do we REALLY know these writters didn't exaggerate?

Which is why I would just rather stick to fighters I've seen fights of and know about. It's just my opinion and how I rate fighters. I can't compare a fighter I've seen vs. A fighter I've read about that to me is impossible and I refuse to go by someone elses words. I'd rather let my own eyes and mind decide.

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Armstrong started & fought at feather for 8 years! Most of his wins came at this weight. He was even named fighter of the year in '37 whilst still at feather. He beat guys like Sarron, Wright, Arizmendi. Armstrongs record at feather is just as good if not better than at welter!

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I've just always been more impressed with Henrys work as a Welterweight I def. agree that his work at Feather is top caliber but I'm more pleasead with his work at the other weight and I've rated him as such.
Maybe it's time I give Henrys career at Feather a 2nd look.

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Miller just look at his numbers & who he fought & beat at feather!

Chocolate was probably a better Jr Lightweight but he was an awesome feather too & at his best he would have hung with any featherweight in history!

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Miller I've not seen enough of to have him listed...
I can def. see by his career he was def. a top fighter but numbers and names can only tell you so much...
Chocolate was def. a better Jr. Light his opposition there and record exceeds that of his Feather career.

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I respect where your coming from Mick about seeing fighters fight 1st hand. But research can give you a lot of insight! Like I said in my original post Sanchez is the best feather I've seen. But for me it would be a discredit to those other fighters not to recognise their achievements just because I haven't seen them! Especially when considering the greatest ever!

The best ever that I have seen was Azumah Nelson (Barry McGuigan did the right thing to cross the road every time he saw him coming along;)). I thought he had everything - technique, speed, power, chin, guts and he was always fit and ready to fight. A real great great fighter. I would rank Eusebio Pedroza just behind him.

I know all about Pep and Armstrong and those guys, but I have stopped short of comparing them to Nelson as I have not seen enough footage of the right quality and length to have a proper opinion. Mind you, Armstrong would be in many people's top 5 fighters of all time, irrespective of weight I guess and Pep, Saddler and those would not be far off.

Some great great featherweights throughout history.

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Originally Posted by X

The best ever that I have seen was Azumah Nelson (Barry McGuigan did the right thing to cross the road every time he saw him coming along;)). I thought he had everything - technique, speed, power, chin, guts and he was always fit and ready to fight. A real great great fighter. I would rank Eusebio Pedroza just behind him.

I know all about Pep and Armstrong and those guys, but I have stopped short of comparing them to Nelson as I have not seen enough footage of the right quality and length to have a proper opinion. Mind you, Armstrong would be in many people's top 5 fighters of all time, irrespective of weight I guess and Pep, Saddler and those would not be far off.

Some great great featherweights throughout history.

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Azumah was great I've got to agree! But better than Sanchez? I don't know!

Sanchez did beat him!

True ..... but only in something like Nelson's 15th fight (and I think he may have been a late substitute)?

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Originally Posted by X

True ..... but only in something like Nelson's 15th fight (and I think he may have been a late substitute)?

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Oh I'm not sure have to check boxrec. I think it was Sanchez's last fight before his death!

Some other names that spring to mind...

Tony Canzoneri
Chalky Wright
Vicente Saldivar
Wilfredo Gomez
Abe Attell

Just found this list which doesn't seem too bad to me except for some modern day fighters being left off the list such as JMM, Naz, Barrera and Morales.

Boxing's Best of the Century

Ha ha just realised it's because it was best of the last century!

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Originally Posted by Master

Sandy Sadler

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I agree with this one Sandy manhandled Pep like he was his bitch in most of the fight's. Except the one were Pep ran and ran, tap and tap his way to victory.

Sandy Saddler easily the best so far.

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

Ha ha just realised it's because it was best of the last century!

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Lol, just looking at that list makes you realize how strong that division has been in the last decade, becuase there are 4 or 5 fighters not on that list that probably would be now

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

Ha ha just realised it's because it was best of the last century!

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Lol, just looking at that list makes you realize how strong that division has been in the last decade, becuase there are 4 or 5 fighters not on that list that probably would be now

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Yeah for me Feather along with Welter are the strongest divisions consistently in the history of the game. It's very rare that they are weak!

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Originally Posted by BIG H

Some other names that spring to mind...

Tony Canzoneri
Chalky Wright
Vicente Saldivar
Wilfredo Gomez
Abe Attell

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Really, Wilfredo as a Feather?
I think his best work came at Super Bantam.
His only win at Feather was vs. LaPorte...

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

This is a topic I have been thinking about for quite a while now and it's got me wondering... Just who is the greatest ever Featherweight in boxing history?

A lot of the so called experts seem to go for Willie Pep but there is not that much of him on film to really convince me. I mean I know he was a defensive master but I think I'd have loved to see more of him so I can make a clearer decision.

Another one who seems to get a lot of accolades is Sandy Saddler who beat Pep a few time I think! But again not enough film or at least I don't seem to be able to find much.

No for me to honestly say they are the greatest feathers I have ever seen I would have had to see quite a bit of them which leads me to my vote Salvador Sanchez. I've seen enough of him to say I think he would pretty much beat any other feather I have seen since.

Problem is Featherweight is a division that has been crammed with class over the years with names such as Azumah Nelson, Vincente Saldivar, Wilfredo Gomez, Henry Armstrong (another who I haven't seen an awful lot of), Eusebio Pedroza, Erik Morales and Barrera amongst others of more recent fighters.

I know that the problem with my choice is basically he didn't have the longevity due to his tragic early death but there was still enough fights for him to prove his worth to me.

Anyway I'd just like to know who you guys think is the greatest Feather in history? Sorry if I missed anyones favourite in my list but I didn't have all day!

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Willie Pep as a pure Featherweight.

When you read about Pep he was in a plane accident in 1948 and after recovering came back but wasn't quite the same. This is most likely why most boxing historians factor the 3rd and 4th fights with Saddler.

Abe Attell!!! He is the only boxer who could screw up championships in two different sports: Throwing away a world championship in boxing and fixing the World Series in American baseball.

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Originally Posted by The Fightfan

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Originally Posted by Master

Sandy Sadler

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I agree with this one Sandy manhandled Pep like he was his bitch in most of the fight's. Except the one were Pep ran and ran, tap and tap his way to victory.

Sandy Saddler easily the best so far.

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Joseph "Sandy" Sadler was born in Boston, Massachusetts on June 23, 1926, and died on September 18, 2001. He was a two-time featherweight world champion, and also held the junior lightweight crown. Over his twelve-year career (1944-1956), Sadler scored 103 knockouts. He was stopped only once, in his second pro fight, by Jock Leslie. His final record was 145-16-2.

Saddler is best known for his four-bout series with boxing legend Willie Pep. The two first faced off on 29 October 1948. Pep was the reigning featherweight champion of the world, and coming into the fight boasted a record of 134-1-1. Pep had not lost since Sammy Angott beat him by decision on 3 March 1943, a span of 74 fights. Sadler captured the title by knocking Pep down four times en route to a four-round knockout victory. Pep then recaptured the crown on 11 February 1949 by outpointing Saddler over 15 rounds, in what is considered one of the greatest boxing exhibitions ever seen. Sadler regained the crown on 8 September 1950 by a TKO in the eight round. Pep quit after dislocating his shoulder. The pair fought their last fight on 26 September 1951. In one of the dirtiest championship fights ever fought, Sadler won when the fight was stopped in the tenth round. Sadler fought many other notable opponents during his career. He knocked out future lightweight champion Joe Brown, as well as lightweight champions Lara Salas and Paddy DeMarco. Sadler beat lightweight champion Jimmy Carter, knocked out future junior lightweight champion Gabriel "Flash" Elorde, and lost to Larry Boardman.

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Originally Posted by X

True ..... but only in something like Nelson's 15th fight (and I think he may have been a late substitute)?

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Yes he was your correct but as i have said time and time again, theres no way Azumah Nelson fought like a 15 pro fight novice. He was superb that night and was on par with Salvador Sanchez all the way.

Just like when Tim Witherspoon fought Larry Holmes, with little experience. He no way fought live a novice he looked like an experienced skilled fighter in there, as did Azumah Nelson and he was pretty even with Salvador Sanchez as i said.

Until Salvador Sanchez came out roaring stopping him in the last round, but i also don't feel we see the best of Salvador Sanchez either. So i don't think either man was in the absolute peak.

A rematch would of been special though as would Salvador Sanchez vs Wilfredo Gomez 2. But one of my favorite Azumah Nelson fights has to be his fight with Wilfredo Gomez, that truly was a special fight.

Jim Driscoll ;D

Salvador Sanchez is the standout for me, with wins over Azumah Nelson and Wilfredo Gomez. Who knows where he would have gone had he lived, he wouldn't have turned 30 until 1989 so Pernell Whitaker may not have been a Lightweight Champ?

Willie Pep and Sandy Saddler fill 2 and 3 positions on my list.