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.....if he had've stayed at LW or at moved up slowly rather than jumping straight up to WW. He's gotta be one of the greatest LWs ever anyway (what was he 31-0(29)??) But if he had've done things differently could be talking about a top 10 p4p of all time fighter? Could he still be unbeaten and p4p number 1? I think possibly 'Yes'
He had to move up he wasn't making weight anymore. He did fight some fights at 140 moving up. He IS great IMO, all time great.
ATG!!! i will not mind putting him alongside PAC as P4P number one right now:)
I think Mosleys win over Margarito was more impressive than Pacs win over oscar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
The thing I like about Mosley is his willingness to take on anyone. Mosley is a real fighter. Even if he loses he jumps straight back in looking for the rematch. Classy guy, I wish more fighters had the approach Mosley has.
That perfermance was all class,he took on someone that had just come off the biggest win of his career and Mosley took him to bits won every round then stopped him you carnt get better than that.If Floyd was watching thats enough to keep him retired with that performance.
Agree, one of my faves but I wrote him off before last night as done. He's HoF no doubt, but IMO he does have flaws, and a fighter with a great jab and tight defense is his kryptonite. I don't think movinf up was his problem against Forrest and Winky, just styles that he would have always struggled with.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Mosley's one of my all time favourite's.
I had just re-watched his career before this fight and had him picked.
I think he may be similar to Lewis and Hagler in that a retrospective eye will allow him his due.
He was an ATG Lightweight. He's right up there with Duran, Chavez et al.
At Welter he also desreves a mention.
Great fighter, great guy
He is a great fighter. Very gifted, reminds me of Meldrick Taylor a bit but. I think he would have faired very well against any lightweight of any era. His loses were to guys with good jabs, which imo has always been his biggest weakness. Hes not hard to find with the jab. Margarito doesnt use his jab so that played right into Shanes hands. All around, Shane is an excellent fighter.
Not sure if he could of stayed unbeaten with Floyd Mayweather around, who at the lighter weights had a terrific jab which is one of Shane Mosley's biggest weaknesses, he's always struggled against fighters with good jabs.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Floyd Mayweather also had alot of pop and was as fast as Shane Mosley, not sure who would of won but it would of been a terrific fight. But other than Floyd Mayweather i can't really see anyone else at Lightweight really having a chance of beating him.
His toughest challenges would be Paul Spadaforda, Joel Casamayor, Jose Luis Castillo, i think Joel Casamayor would of gave him a tough fight. I don't think the others would of troubled him too much, but basically Joel Casamayor, Floyd Mayweather, would of been his toughest fights had he stayed at Lightweight.
I like Shane Mosley and he's an old school fighter who will fight anyone.
Class act all round :cool:
Rant coming....
In my book, the measure of a fighters greatest comes more from the quantity of wins and great performances against other great/very good fighters. If you fight the best out there consistently, you are bound to have an off night or come up against a matchup that is stylistic nightmare for you. Most fighters today are way over protected and over managed and it probably has something to do with the public being so fickle. Nowadays, having an 0 zero in the loss column is more important to many fans (and fighters) than seeing wins against best available competition. Lossing is unacceptable. They seem to think great fighters can't loose AT ALL, even to other very good fighters, and still be an ATG.
Cotto loses one fight and people are questioning if he's done. Hatton gets sparked by the one of the best fighters of our generation and he people were questioning him. Paul Williams lost once and he was exposed overhyped (seems he proven those people wrong). Pavlik loses to Hopkins and now Pavlik is overrated. Even David Haye...the guy was frickin unified CW champ with some real quality wins at CW and people still harp on the Thompson fight, and I promise, once he fights a good, big, HW and gets his ass beat, everybody will call him crap instead of just saying that he's a very good fighter who is little small to beat the biggest and best HWs. If fact, you're people call you a hater and get angry when you tell them their favorite fighter isn't the second coming of Benny Leonard, only better.
In or near there PRIMES - Duran lost to Benitez and Leonard. Leonard lost to Duran. Hearns lost to Hagler and Leonard, Frazier lost to Foreman, Foreman lost to Ali (an older Ali). Benitez lost to Hearns and Leonard. Arguello lost to Fernandez. Louis lost to Schmelling. etc, etc etc. Very, very few fighters who fight in stacked divisions (like Mosley has since leaving LW) can say they fought the best, toughest fights out there and came away without losing.
Rant over.
I guess he could have fought Kostya Tszyu instead of Oscar and assuming he could keep making that weight, stuck around 140 for a while, beating up on Urkal, Sharmba Mitchell, Zab Judah, Chop-Chop and Ricky Hatton. I can't imagine anybody other than Floyd having a chance against him at that weight. That would have been great career, too, and he may have ended up undefeated and considered the greatest LWW of all time. Imagine the prospect of Shane and Floyd fighting at 140, circa 2004-2005. Wow.
But even factoring in the losses, I'm not sure that would make him greater than moving all the way up from LW to become unified LMW champion and 2x WW champion, beating ODLH twice, demolishing Vargas, Mayorga, and (at age 37) Margarito - the most feared, avoided, and recognized #1 WW in an extremely deep WW division. If anything, he screwed himself up by following Oscar up to 154 and then deciding to defend those belt against Winky, then taking a second shot a Winky. He probably should have dropped back down to WW right after the second Oscar fight and fought Mayorga for the belts Vernon took from him.
And what if Floyd come out of retirement to fight Mosley and Mosley managed to pull that off? Could it get much greater than that?
Size wasn't the factor, it was Mosley inability to purely box, physically he was as strong as the big guys, he just doesn't know how to fight guys who can jab and are not mesmerized by his speed. also he was 28 or 29 when he left the LW division that isn't very young, he already had 32 fights, and there was really nobody in the division at the time worth fighting.
I think JLC gives Mosley a ton of trouble, he was a really big LW like Mosley, not as tall, but consistently came in at 147 pounds, he hits really hard, goes to the body well, much faster and more accurate version of Antoniono Margarito. IMO JLC is the missing link between JCC and AM.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBNot sure if he could of stayed unbeaten with Floyd Mayweather around, who at the lighter weights had a terrific jab which is one of Shane Mosley's biggest weaknesses, he's always struggled against fighters with good jabs.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Floyd Mayweather also had alot of pop and was as fast as Shane Mosley, not sure who would of won but it would of been a terrific fight. But other than Floyd Mayweather i can't really see anyone else at Lightweight really having a chance of beating him.
His toughest challenges would be Paul Spadaforda, Joel Casamayor, Jose Luis Castillo, i think Joel Casamayor would of gave him a tough fight. I don't think the others would of troubled him too much, but basically Joel Casamayor, Floyd Mayweather, would of been his toughest fights had he stayed at Lightweight.
Where did I say size was the factor or the reason he should have moved back down? He should have run back down to avoid fighting Winky Wright for exactly the reason you said. It would have been one thing if a guy like Vargas was his mandatory. He could have made a lucrative, very winnable fight against Mayorga. Duh...We know he was big enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Not that it would have mattered, but Mosley does have much better power at 147 than 154. He's a decent puncher at 154, but he has real power at 147. It's pretty clear that's a better weight for him.
He should have learned from the Forrest fights that a guy with a jab like Wright's was a nightmare for him. And he should have realized again after Winky beat him the first time and not gone back for a second go. Hubris was his downfall.
Mayorga was a better matchup for him and probably a more marketable fight. I'm sure if Shane had tried to make the fight happen, Mayorga would have defended against Mosley instead of Spinks. That would have been twice the money...Shane would have taken two less losses, beaten a younger, more feared Mayorga, and not gotten stuck in the boxing wilderness for a few years. How much better would his resume look if you replaced two losses to Wright with a KO win over Mayorga?
He's also very hittable and he was stopped several times by fighters with less power than Mosley has. I can buy prime Casamayor and obviously Mayweather giving him trouble, but JLC is taylor-made for Mosley.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethI think JLC gives Mosley a ton of trouble, he was a really big LW like Mosley, not as tall, but consistently came in at 147 pounds, he hits really hard, goes to the body well, much faster and more accurate version of Antoniono Margarito. IMO JLC is the missing link between JCC and AM.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBNot sure if he could of stayed unbeaten with Floyd Mayweather around, who at the lighter weights had a terrific jab which is one of Shane Mosley's biggest weaknesses, he's always struggled against fighters with good jabs.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Floyd Mayweather also had alot of pop and was as fast as Shane Mosley, not sure who would of won but it would of been a terrific fight. But other than Floyd Mayweather i can't really see anyone else at Lightweight really having a chance of beating him.
His toughest challenges would be Paul Spadaforda, Joel Casamayor, Jose Luis Castillo, i think Joel Casamayor would of gave him a tough fight. I don't think the others would of troubled him too much, but basically Joel Casamayor, Floyd Mayweather, would of been his toughest fights had he stayed at Lightweight.
I agree Rozzy, I can't see JLC giving him too much trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanHe's also very hittable and he was stopped several times by fighters with less power than Mosley has. I can buy prime Casamayor and obviously Mayweather giving him trouble, but JLC is taylor-made for Mosley.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethI think JLC gives Mosley a ton of trouble, he was a really big LW like Mosley, not as tall, but consistently came in at 147 pounds, he hits really hard, goes to the body well, much faster and more accurate version of Antoniono Margarito. IMO JLC is the missing link between JCC and AM.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Joel & PBF are another story.
I don't think Mosley's problem was moving up in weight too quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
What limited his effectiveness was that he got into some bad habits and became too much of a brawler. I was shocked at how well he jabbed last night, it's been years and years since he focused on throwing quality jab. He was also stepping back and countering, doing all types of stuff he hasn't been doing.
I agree, Mosley wouldn't have had much trouble with Castillo. Yes, Castillo is a better version of Margarito but Mosley didn't have trouble with Margarito.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickI agree Rozzy, I can't see JLC giving him too much trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanHe's also very hittable and he was stopped several times by fighters with less power than Mosley has. I can buy prime Casamayor and obviously Mayweather giving him trouble, but JLC is taylor-made for Mosley.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Joel & PBF are another story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPeaI don't think Mosley's problem was moving up in weight too quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
What limited his effectiveness was that he got into some bad habits and became too much of a brawler. I was shocked at how well he jabbed last night, it's been years and years since he focused on throwing quality jab. He was also stepping back and countering, doing all types of stuff he hasn't been doing.
It wasn't so much of the weight moving up..it was how he moved up in weight..he increased weight training and got too bulky for his combos to flow out...and he started to believe he could kayo the bigger guys. so he stood and traded with them. but that bad strategy in term of how he moved up in weight is why in hindsight it wasnt so bad, because his armor is so thick now from banging with the big guys. He feels confident that he can walk down the smaller guys...he kayos pacman, hatton, judah, and berto....rematch with cotto or floyd goes the distance.
Just wanna say big congrats to my man Shane, he has always been my favourite fighter and with all the scandal about the Balco use going and how he should retire after his low par performance against Mayorga, he has proved he is still a world class fighter.
Even I thought Shane had bitten off more than he could chew taking on Margarito at this point in his career which is why I didnt watch the fight live, it hurt me to see what Margarito did to Cotto and I just didnt think I could take watching Shane taking the same punishment.
Boxing needs fighters like Mosley who arnt afraid to take on the most feared fighters in the divisions.
I agree. While many thought Oscar was too big/strong for Manny, we saw what a shell Oscar was coming all the way down to 147 again for the 1st time in years. With Margarito, we had a guy many thought was the top WW & would be too strong for Shane who was supposed to be past his prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEI think Mosleys win over Margarito was more impressive than Pacs win over oscar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Big props to Shane, what a convincing, impressive win - from the opening bell to the decisive conclusion!
2009 gets off to a great start in boxing!
I think it also eclipsed Hopkins amazing win over Pavlik. Infact im struggling to think of a fight it doesnt eclipse. Mosley was sensational . It looked like Mosley would never get back to his best after the 1st Forrest fight. We waited a long time but almost 10 years later . . .he is back !!! It wasnt just the fact that he won but he statyed in pucnhing range , stood toe to toe and then pushed Tony back . He went for the KO and got it. ATG no doubt about it !Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackRazorI agree. While many thought Oscar was too big/strong for Manny, we saw what a shell Oscar was coming all the way down to 147 again for the 1st time in years. With Margarito, we had a guy many thought was the top WW & would be too strong for Shane who was supposed to be past his prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEI think Mosleys win over Margarito was more impressive than Pacs win over oscar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Big props to Shane, what a convincing, impressive win - from the opening bell to the decisive conclusion!
2009 gets off to a great start in boxing!
You have to ask yourself are boxers ever the same after they juice up when skipping divisions...
I dunno, what does Roy say?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairdoo
LOL i did find that funny that he is implying Shane Mosley with steroids, yet he has RJJ as his avatar.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyI dunno, what does Roy say?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairdoo
What Hairdoo said is perfectly legit.. and ironic.. and it's ironic he was neg-repped by someone that didn't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBLOL i did find that funny that he is implying Shane Mosley with steroids, yet he has RJJ as his avatar.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyI dunno, what does Roy say?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairdoo
Hairdoo is/was a big Mosley fan. Also a former prediction comp winner.
Long time no see Hairdoo :cool:
I remember him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Reason being his predictions were always pretty accurate.
I didn't neg rep him i just wasn't sure if he was being sarcastic or not, i know nothing about him and i've never seen any of his posts. So i wouldn't know who he is a fan of and who he isn't a fan of.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterWhat Hairdoo said is perfectly legit.. and ironic.. and it's ironic he was neg-repped by someone that didn't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBLOL i did find that funny that he is implying Shane Mosley with steroids, yet he has RJJ as his avatar.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Hairdoo is/was a big Mosley fan. Also a former prediction comp winner.
Long time no see Hairdoo :cool:
Mosley was already an ATG before his win against Margarito and let's not get carried away here, Margarito is not in Mosley's class or Oscar's for that matter. He beat Cintron and yes he beat Cotto, how Cotto managed to lose that fight i still don't know because i don't think Margarito is in his class either.
I liken Margarito to the EPL, he was top of the championship league and gets promoted to the Premier League, he surprisngly wins his first match then kapow is brought back down to earth when he tackles the 'Arsenal' of Suger Shane Mosley.
As for Mosley one of my favourite fighters and people in boxing i would have loved to see him fight Tszyu back in 1999. He chose to chase Oscar and it was a smart move both financially and career wise.
He really needs Floyd now or Cotto again to cement his place in Boxings top 20 ATGs. He is 37 and probably has one or two big fights left in him but guys like Margarito are a punching bag for Sugar Shane. Floyd, Cotto or Williams could be a different story altogether.