Why Marvin Hagler Is The Best Middleweight Of All Time.

In my opinion, Marvelous Marvin Hagler, as his official full name goes, is the best (not greatest) fighter ever to grace the ring. On film, I see nobody who could rival his all-round ability, toughness and determination. Marvin Hagler was the greatest middleweight of all time. He made twelve successful defenses of his title, and reigned supreme for seven years.

Almost all of Hagler’s title defenses were against the number one contender. Not a single rightful challenger to the crown was avoided, and each one got their chance to prove themselves. When Hagler reigned, people really knew who was the middleweight champion of the world.

A breakdown of Hagler’s title opponents:

Vito Antuofermo – A tough, rough and grizzled veteran, Antuofermo possessed a granite chin and an impossible workrate.. He possessed a record of 45-6-2 in his first meeting with Hagler, in which he held the challenger to a controversial draw. Many observers, including himself, thought Hagler was robbed. In the rematch, Marvin made sure there was no room for argument, dominating Antuofermo two years later in one of his most impressive performances.

Alan Minter – Minter was a good champion in his own right, winning the title off the rugged Italian, Vito Antuofermo. Minter had an imposing record of 38-6 when he faced Hagler, and all of his losses had occurred because of his fragile face. Minter had never been thoroughly beaten by anyone. He had several notable and credible victories over name opponents such as Antuofermo, Finnegan, Tonna, Griffith and Seales. Some say that if Hagler hadn’t been Minter’s mandatory challenger, he would have reigned for a long time. Hagler slipped, ducked and countered many a jab from the southpaw Brit before dragging him down into a brawl, which ended with Minter turning away in pain when Hagler broke his nose with a big right hook. Moments later the fight was stopped, Minter left bleeding and disorientated from the onslaught.

Fulgencio Obelmejias – A tall, long, rangy fighter from Venezuela, Obelmejias was deceptively powerful. He had knocked out twenty seven of his thirty opponents before meeting Hagler for the first time, and was the undefeated number one contender. Hagler knocked him out in eight rounds. In the rematch Obelmejias earned himself the number one challenger spot again, defeating his last eight opponents all by knockout. Hagler put on another display of efficiency, working his way inside the taller challenger and chopping him down in five.

Mustafa Hamsho – This guy was like Jake LaMotta. A rough, tough, granite chinned brawler with plenty of dirty tricks up his sleeve, and a mean streak a mile long. Hamsho was rightfully the number one contender in 1981, and earned that position with wins over Watts, Minter, prospect Parker and Scypion. Hamsho was also undefeated in his last twenty eight fights, and would go undefeated again in between his two fights with Hagler, beating Benitez and Czyz. In their first outing, Hamsho was thoroughly outboxed and cut up en route to a stoppage loss, in which Hamsho was left reeling along the ropes practically defenseless. In the second fight, Hamsho blatantly fouled Hagler, and the champion did not tolerate it – the previously unfloored Hamsho was battered from pillar to post and knocked senseless in three rounds.

William Lee – Although he once lost to Frank “The Animal” Fletcher, Lee had built up an impressive knockout streak and somehow got into the number one challenger spot. He was badly overmatched, and Hagler dispatched him in sixty seven seconds of the first round.

Tony Sibson – In what would be his most complete performance in sixty seven fights, Hagler dominated the durable, hard punching Brit in six rounds. Sibson was 47-3-1, and owned wins over such quality fighters as Salvemini, Minter, Amana, Cirelli, Davison and Cabrera. Hagler switched stances, doubled up on his punches, cut his man up, floored and humiliated him in savage fashion. On this night he really did look the perfect fighting machine.

Wilford Scypion – Scypion was a rugged fighter who had been put through the gruelling middleweight ranks without proper training, and so suffered a few setbacks along the way. Nevertheless, he possessed a solid record of 26-3 against fair opposition, and was catapulted into the limelight with his win over Frank Fletcher. Scypion was no match for Hagler, who started beating on the normally durable Scypion from the first round. Scypion, dazed, disheartened and outclassed, was counted out in the fourth round, on his back from a flurry of punches.

Roberto Duran – This man needs no introduction. A great fighter capable of pulling off some miraculous wins, Duran, while not the force he once was at lightweight and welterweight, was a tough and durable middleweight who had just beaten the hell out of young, fiery and strong Davey Moore, of whom Manos de Piedra was expected to lose to. Before this win, victories over hard hitting Pipino Cuevas and Jimmy Batten secured Duran’s place in the number one spot. Hagler was noticeably tentative on the night of their fight, probably wary of his opponent’s power and in awe of the great Duran’s presence. Nevertheless, the champion showed his strength and grit, outfighting Duran in the later stages and stealing the close but clear verdict. The fight was competitive, but not nearly the paper-thin decision as some will believe.

Juan Roldan – An awkward customer, the Argentine Roldan was known to be fairly durable and hard punching, and owned a gaudy record of 52-2-2. Roldan’s place at number one was decided after he created a string of impressive performances against some quality fighters from Argentina (a place known for its tough circuit) and then knocked out the highly regarded Fletcher. The unorthodox challenger troubled Hagler in the first few rounds of the fight, and it took the now slipping champion a few frames to find his rhythm. Once he did, he started to outfight Roldan and take him apart piece by piece, stopping him in the tenth round.

Thomas Hearns – In what would be the defining fight of his career, Marvelous Marvin took on the superstar knockout artist, Tommy “Hitman” Hearns. It was a much anticipated fight, and for good reason – Hearns had a record of 40-1, and had dominated at welterweight a few years before. He proved he could not only hang with the middleweights, but knock the crap out of them – Roberto Duran was destroyed in two rounds, while Fred Hutchings was taken apart in three. In a fight after Hagler-Hearns, Tommy also beat up James Schuler in one round at middleweight. Wilfred Benitez, Murray Sutherland and Luigi Minchillo were also defeated on the way to Hagler, proving Hearns was the best of a good bunch. The fight itself was wildly entertaining, if not too short. After an exquisite first round, Hagler stalked Hearns and gradually broke him down, before stunning him with a right hook in round three and following up with a subsequent pair of leaping rights.

John Mugabi – “The Beast” was undefeated in twenty five fights, and had a one hundred percent knockout ratio. It was thought he could be the one to catch a now past his prime Hagler and dethrone him, but that was not to be. The young, fast, hard hitting challenger had his moments and landed some real bombs on Marvin, but the champion didn’t budge. Instead, he dismantled Mugabi piece by piece with his superior skills and accurate southpaw jab, and in the tenth and eleventh, literally walked him down. Mugabi was knocked out by a combination of punches and a couple of leaping right hands.

Ray Leonard – “Sugar” Ray was a former welterweight star, a popular, slick boxer who was capable of anything. He was 33-1 at the time of the Hagler fight, with wins over excellent opponents such as Hearns, Duran and Benitez, albeit at lighter weights. Leonard had looked bad in his couple of outings, and this was his first fight at middleweight in years – but rumour has it, Leonard was participating in unofficial professional fights behind closed doors from ’86 to ’87, in preperation for Hagler. Leonard had been a ringside observer at the Hagler-Mugabi fight, and took note of how the now past-prime Hagler had slowed considerably. Come fight night, another year had passed, and the champion had been involved in several wars which surely must have taken their toll by now. The two stars duked it out in one of the richest fights of all time, and thrilling it was. While the split decision went to Leonard, many felt Hagler had won. Leonard’s punching had been pitty-patty and somewhat superficial, while the real solid, damaging work came from Hagler. Leonard was exhausted and demoralised when the final bell rang, while Hagler remained unscathed. Nevertheless, the great champion had finally been knocked off his pedestal.

Marvin Hagler was fearfully avoided on his way to the top. Valdez, Corro, Antuofermo and Minter wanted no part of him. If not for politics, Hagler may have won the title in 1977, had he got a shot. He was certainly the rightful number one contender in 1977, ’78 and ’79 – he was blatantly avoided.

Hagler’s significant pre-title oppositition:

Sugar Ray Seales – Seales was an Olympic Silver medallist and a hot prospect when he met Hagler the first time. The undefeated hopefuls battled it out in 1974, with Hagler coming out on top. Seales held Hagler to a draw in their next encounter, but was thoroughly dominated when they next met – Seales was floored three times by Hagler, and stopped in the first round.

Bobby Watts – Bobby “Boogaloo” Watts was another slick stylist from Philly, who, like Monroe, was one of the best the major city had to offer at the time. With a solid record of 26-3-1, Watts was on the right end of what was perceived as a hometown decision by the local newspapers. Basically, they felt Hagler won.

Willie Monroe – Willie “The Worm” was one of the best Philadelphia had to offer, at a time when the Philly professional circuit was a very tough one. Monroe was a slick boxer and a world ranked contender with a record of 32-3-1 when he first met Marvelous Marvin, and he eked out a decision over the less experienced fighter. Hagler, while disheartened, came back and proved his superiority over The Worm with a twelfth round technical knockout win and then an impressive second round knockout in ’77.

Eugene Hart - This guy was a natural southpaw, but he fought from an orthodox stance, and so he developed a wicked left hook. Another of Philly’s finest, and a damn hard hitter. A world ranked contender, Hart hit Hagler with some real bombs in their fight, although Marvin never budged. He later claimed Hart hit him the hardest of all. And few would argue – Hart was on The Ring magazine’s list of one hundred greatest punchers.

Bennie Briscoe – Yet another Philly fighter, Briscoe was the best of the bunch. Generally regarded as being one of the best never to win a title, Briscoe was a real tough nut with a superb jab and a Joe Frazier-type attrition style. Like Hart, he appeared on The Ring magazine’s list of one hundred greatest punchers.

Honourable mention – Mike Colbert (suffered several fractures to his jaw), Kevin Finnegan (required sixty stitches), Norberto Cabrera, Marcus Geraldo.

Hagler never really lost at his best at all; he only ever lost controversially. Against Monroe he had bronchitis. He avenged that loss with two knockout wins. Against Bobby Watts, the verdict was thought to have been a hometown decision. Watts was blown away in the rematch. Many observers felt the well-past-prime Hagler deserved the nod against Leonard. His draw with Antuofermo was also considered a bogus decision, but the man was stopped in a rematch. The only other blotch left is that draw against Olympic silver medalist Sugar Ray Seales - but then again, this draw was suffered back in the ring blooding days when Hagler had not fully matured. Hagler smashed him in one round as payback.

A statistical analysis:

62-3-2 (52)

Undisputed middleweight champion of the world from 1980 to 1987. Hagler defended the lineal middleweight title twelve times successfully, before losing on a close decision to Ray Leonard.

Hagler was unbeaten in his last thirty seven fights before facing Ray Leonard, or eleven years. He avenged his first two losses more than once, and avenged his two draws, all with knockout wins.

Hagler's title opponents and their records at the time of the fight:

Vito Antuofermo 45-3-1
Alan Minter 38-6-0
Fulgencio Obelmejias 30-0-0
Mustafa Hamsho 31-2-2
William Lee 22-2-0
Tony Sibson 47-3-1
Wilford Scypion 26-3-0
Roberto Duran 77-4-0
Juan Domingo Roldan 52-2-2
Thomas Hearns 40-1-0
John Mugabi 25-0
Ray Leonard 33-1-0

Most impressive winning streaks: 17-0 (14), 20-0 (18; ) , 16-0 (14)
Longest knockout streak: 10
Times knocked down: 1
Other titles held: Massachusetts middleweight title
Record in world title fights: 13-1-1 (12)

Hagler's total title opponents' record at the time of the fight: 444-25-6 (93.1% win rate)

Hall of famers fought: Roberto Duran, Ray Leonard (2)

Unbeaten fighters fought: Terry Ryan (0-0-0), Sonny Williams (0-0-0), Dornell Wigfall (8-0-0), Cove Green (4-0-0), John Mugabi (25-0-0), Sugar Ray Seales (21-0-0), Johnny Baldwin (29-0-0), Ray Phillips (11-0-0), Mike Colbert (23-0-0), Fulgencio Obelmejias (30-0-0)

Among Hagler's wins were three multi-weight champions, five middleweight champions and five punchers who appeared in The Ring Magazine's 100 Greatest Punchers of All Time.

Marvin Hagler was rated at #35 in The Ring Magazine's 100 Greatest Punchers of All Time, and is generally regarded as one of the top three middleweights of all time. He was effectively the best middleweight in the world for ten years – he was the champion for seven of those, but was the number one contender for three years before he won the title. And we know he was better than Valdez, Corro, Antuofermo and Minter.

Marvelous Marvin also looks very impressive on film. He could do everything. To me, he was the most complete fighter ever. Nobody can name a single attribute that Hagler didn't have or didn't perform well. He could box or brawl out of either stance, retreat or advance, move or swarm. He had perfect poise and balance, and hit with an accuracy equalled only by Joe Louis. He had crunching power in each hand, and had deceptively fast hands. With long arms, bulging muscles and shavenhead, Marvin Hagler was an imposing figure, and was always relaxed and cool under pressure. He was schooled in the old school arts of feinting, parrying, blocking, slipping and ducking, and could release stunning combinations like a box of fireworks with excellent technique. Hagler trained like no other middleweight before or after him, and made sure he was in top shape for every fight. Determined and courageous, Hagler would step into the ring with the most devastating punchers - Hearns, Mugabi, Hart, Scypion, Leonard, Duran, Briscoe... With the footwork of Ali and the boxing skills of Gene Tunney, Hagler made mincemeat of any come-forward slugger, and on his best day, could outbox the best boxers. It is truly amazing, to see Hagler on film calmly but savagely dismantling his opponents.

After 1983, he started to become more of a swarmer, in my opinion, and some of his boxing skills seemed eroded. The Hagler from ‘77-‘82 was near unbeatable, he was a slick boxer with that iron chin and an airtight defence. Hagler's defence is one of the most underrated I've seen - he'd slip jabs with a twist of his hips, block body shots with his elbows, duck under his opponents punches to get inside. He always had his hands up and was a great judge of distance - he'd come in with that awesome double jab, and before the guy has even thought about getting off a counter punch, Hagler's out of range again, always with his hands high. Coupled with that iron chin, the prime Hagler was impossible to knock out.

Marvelous Marvin possessed one of the most effective jabs the game as seen. Against a guy like Hamsho, who stalked his opponent and swarmed over them, Hagler could approach the fight in a workman-like manner and methodically take his man apart with stiff right hand leads. Even in attack mode, like against Minter, he would slip jabs with his excellent head movement and pump the jab in his opponent's face with unerring accuracy.

Hagler showed that when the going got tough, he could get even tougher. If the fight started going wrong, Hagler would start to go all-out to end the matter. Against Duran, when he was behind on the cards, Hagler stepped up the pace and made sure the judges knew who to score the fight for. Against Hamsho in their second outing, where the challenger blatantly butted Hagler at least twice, the champion decided he would have no more of it, and proceeded to finish the fight in the same round. Also against Hearns, when referee Richard Steele called time to check Hagler's cut, he stepped up the pace and knocked Hearns out because he thought the fight was in danger of being stopped.

Handspeed, footspeed, footwork, power, combinations, stamina, infighting, boxing, technique, defense, chin, accuracy, timing, balance, strength, heart, determination, toughness, body punching, switch-hitting, reach, professionalism... Name what you like, I'll bet Marvin Hagler had it in spades.

Marvelous Marvin Hagler was perhaps the greatest and most dominant champion within his weight class that the history of boxing has ever seen. On pure fighting prowess, there is nobody I've ever seen that can match Hagler's all-round ability - not even the likes of Robinson, Duran, Pep or Armstrong.

Did you write all this out Ice or is taken from a website?

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Did you write all this out Ice or is taken from a website?

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I don't know but great read all the same.

This is a most excellent thread , well written, well researched , and the fact is , its very hard to disagree with it.
Nice work indeed.:appl:

Yeah, I'll second what Dark Lord Al says. Nice job.

I have no real problem with calling Hagler the best middleweight. He was a very intimidating looking fellow in the ring. I was very pissed off that he didn't get a rematch against Leonard, casuse he certainly earned one, that's for sure.

Hagler was a religuous man. He always used to thank The Lord each fight for giving him the strength and courage to face his opponent. In some ways there is a certain irony than a man who had such faith could show such ferocity inside the ring.

That is impressive and congrats for it, i have two words that might put a dampener on it...Carlos Monzon?

© JamesSadler2005

I love it!!

Excellent post, even if I'm quite split between him & Hopkins on the best MW of all time, but its very well reasoned & a good read.

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Originally Posted by Youngblood

© JamesSadler2005

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:confused:

Anyway. Great read.

prime Hagler v Hopkins would have been a Classic.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Excellent post, even if I'm quite split between him & Hopkins on the best MW of all time, but its very well reasoned & a good read.

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Agree, too close for me to choose but I say Hopkins is the Greatest MW ever but Hagler can be considered as well.

Monzon

Seems that no one brings up Carlos Monzon who never lost in prime had a long reign over the middle weight division and retired the champion.

IMO Hagler clearly beats Monzon who great smaller guys as well, but not as great Duran or Leonard or Hearns.

IMO Bernard is the best middleweight ever that I've seen and I think he beats either Monzon or Hagler because he is too crafty while still having all of Hagler's mean streak.

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Originally Posted by The Grinch

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Originally Posted by Youngblood

© JamesSadler2005

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:confused:

Anyway. Great read.

prime Hagler v Hopkins would have been a Classic.

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That really would have been a great fight,one of them would have had to stop trying to outclever the other and really let it go.
As much as Im a fan of Hopkins,I think Hagler would have let his hands go first.
Neither one of them would have gone down,but I think Hagler's early work would have taken it.

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by The Grinch

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Originally Posted by Youngblood

© JamesSadler2005

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:confused:

Anyway. Great read.

prime Hagler v Hopkins would have been a Classic.

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That really would have been a great fight,one of them would have had to stop trying to outclever the other and really let it go.
As much as Im a fan of Hopkins,I think Hagler would have let his hands go first.
Neither one of them would have gone down,but I think Hagler's early work would have taken it.

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It's also a certainty that whoever lost would bitch about the decision for the next 30 years or so too

Its interesting because we've seen two versions of Hopkins. 1 version was ferocious like Hagler, with better defense, but less power. Then the second version was an old slickster who knew how to do anything to win a fight, but more importantly nobody ever really nullified Hagler's offensive arsenal, while I don't think I've seen anybody including RJJ, Pavlik, Trinidad, De La Hoya, and Calzaghe be effective offensively against Hopkins.

Anyways sorry for bringing him up, Its just I would have loved to have seen them battle out the middleweights supremecy.

Marvelous piece of writing ICB! Hats off, you outdid yourself on this one, if at all possible!

The Marvin Hagler I followed (boxing career), beats anybody and everybody. I don't know if that is just the huge fan in me, or reality. Hard decision, especially after many, many years, have already gone past the real scores of those fights. The years have dulled or blurred the detail, and it seems memory will enhance by default.

Too much appreciation of the "Marvelous One" I guess... makes it incredibly hard for me to think any fighter can come close to eclipse, nor even equal his dominance in the middleweight division in boxing!

By the way... as I scrolled through the list of Hagler's opponents in the championship years, from ICB's list, only the Lee fight stand as the only fight I did not see on TV live (with a little tape delay).

I would think by the coverage given Hagler around that time, by the TV network from my ol' neck of the woods, you can't help but be a fan, easily... the product on display is first class bar none!

Personally I think you got it the wrong way round. I think that Hagler is the greatest Middleweight of all time and maybe not the best. I think that RJJ is ther best ever and would have been the greatest MW champ of all time had he stayed there and if him and Hagler could have faced each other in their primes in some kind of dream match I think Jones would take a decision win.

Absolutely excellent write up though. Probably the best I've ever seen on here!

Not sure who is the Greatest Middleweight to be honest though I am not a fan of Monzon from what I have seen.

Hagler was superb and was often criticized like Calzaghe for not having the competition until later.

What I am sure about is that ICB has written one superb article - hard pressed to remember a better one.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

IMO Hagler clearly beats Monzon who great smaller guys as well, but not as great Duran or Leonard or Hearns.

IMO Bernard is the best middleweight ever that I've seen and I think he beats either Monzon or Hagler because he is too crafty while still having all of Hagler's mean streak.

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Bernard got beat by Roy Jones at Middleweight.

I've read a few of your posts and have come to the conclusion that you don't know what the fuck your talking about. Am I right? I'm not wrong.:D

Roy never stayed at middleweight thus couldn't be considered one really. He only fought like 4-5 fights considered to actually be at middleweight, and he broke his hand, but offensively he didn't look super great against Hopkins, both of them were green at the time.

Do you know what the fuck you are talking about Welsh? Hopkins beat everybody at the middleweight division for 20 title defenses, had two close fights with Jermain Taylor, then went up and beat Tarver, Wright, arguably Calzaghe, and now Pavlik. Nobody has ever looked good against Hopkins. Only Roy Jones Jr has beaten him decisively, and only Roy was really able to land effectively on him, but even then Roy wasn't able to get off combinations or pot shot very effectively.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Roy never stayed at middleweight thus couldn't be considered one really. He only fought like 4-5 fights considered to actually be at middleweight, and he broke his hand, but offensively he didn't look super great against Hopkins, both of them were green at the time.
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True point about Roy not looking super great against Hopkins but then again who did? I've never seen anyone look good against Hopkins and considering Roy had the broken hand I think he showed his greatness against another great.

Shame we didn't realise at the time that two all time greats were fighting each other. I think it was on the undercard of a Riddick Bowe fight. Could you imagine Roy or Bernard being an undercard to anyone now?

Can anybody using people's work please give credit to the author. Also, please just post a few lines from the original work and then a link to the host website. This protects us from any legal issues, that we have been threatened with in the past

Cheers


Original author/link

Marvin "Marvelous" Hagler

I honestly wonder if you take RJJ out of the picture who would be the best guy at or around the middleweight division over the years
Calzaghe? Hopkins? Hagler? Monzon? Leonard? prime James Toney? Michael Nunn(had he stayed away from drugs)? Gerald McClellan had he not been so badly damaged before he reached his potential.

Especially the first four were all great at/around MW, it would be interesting to see them all go at it.

I wish we could of saw best versions fight one another I not sure Hopkins could beat a Jones but would of liked to see it when they werent so green but there weight never aloud it to happen so o well i guess i while never see it but people you just mention i think Hagler and Monzon could hang with Hopkins and the version of Jones that fought at MW hell i think even Leonard could of ruled as well but the only version i saw at the weight was kinda past what he once was and that eye enjury not so sure how much that really effected him i wonder if he could land if he have the power to knock Jones out but i not so sure how much power Leonard had at the weight because he only fought Hagler which no way Leonard could knock that guy out no one seem to just a thought on what i think go down as for Monzon think Leonard could run and pot shot not so sure how a Hopkins vs Leonard fight would look like it might be ugly but who really knows i think it would just be a clinch feast most likly not sure though.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

I wish we could of saw best versions fight one another I not sure Hopkins could beat a Jones but would of liked to see it when they werent so green but there weight never aloud it to happen so o well i guess i while never see it but people you just mention i think Hagler and Monzon could hang with Hopkins and the version of Jones that fought at MW hell i think even Leonard could of ruled as well but the only version i saw at the weight was kinda past what he once was and that eye enjury not so sure how much that really effected him i wonder if he could land if he have the power to knock Jones out but i not so sure how much power Leonard had at the weight because he only fought Hagler which no way Leonard could knock that guy out no one seem to just a thought on what i think go down as for Monzon think Leonard could run and pot shot not so sure how a Hopkins vs Leonard fight would look like it might be ugly but who really knows i think it would just be a clinch feast most likly not sure though.

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I don't think Leonard could beat jones at MW. Even though he was a young fighter he fought and covincingly beat a 28 year old Hopkins. Leonard used his speed to win at the higher weights but Jones is far faster IMO at MW than Leonard and no question he punched a damn site harder.

Well i think Leonard had the chin to with stand Jones punching but also he had the power to land the question i had is if he landed often enough would he have the power to knock Jones out that was my question was how good do you think Leonards power was at the weight of mw.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Well i think Leonard had the chin to with stand Jones punching but also he had the power to land the question i had is if he landed often enough would he have the power to knock Jones out that was my question was how good do you think Leonards power was at the weight of mw.

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I think Jones' chin at MW would stand up to Leonards power no problem. Jones' power and speed though would give leonard hell IMO.

Not really disagreeing with you, but I want to play Devil's advocate here. Ray Leonard had been retired before he fought Hagler and had last fought above the welterweight limit. Did he really deserve a shot at Hagler above the guy who had been the no. 1 contender? Of course the fight should have been made because they were both legends, but Ray Leonard wasn't really a legit no. 1.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

IMO Hagler clearly beats Monzon who great smaller guys as well, but not as great Duran or Leonard or Hearns.

IMO Bernard is the best middleweight ever that I've seen and I think he beats either Monzon or Hagler because he is too crafty while still having all of Hagler's mean streak.

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Imagine how good Monzon would have been had he trained! He only trained 1 month before a fight and only did roadwork and went half pace in sparring, he drank heavily, chain smoked and f***ed anything with a skirt on. He fought with a bullet lodged in his shoulder for the last 5 years of his career courtesy of his enraged wife at the time. Benvenuti was no bum and Monzon destroyed him twice, he beat the legend Emile Griffith and long time Welterweight king Jose Napoles. 14 title defenses and unbeaten in his last 13 years as a pro, i don't see Hagler beating him clearly.
Someone has to make a movie on Monzon's life, the guy was incredible in the ring, but outside the ring he was out of control.

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Well i think Leonard had the chin to with stand Jones punching but also he had the power to land the question i had is if he landed often enough would he have the power to knock Jones out that was my question was how good do you think Leonards power was at the weight of mw.

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I think Jones' chin at MW would stand up to Leonards power no problem. Jones' power and speed though would give leonard hell IMO.

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Im a huge SRL fan and I agree he would give him hell especially at MW. SRL at his best IMO was at welter.

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

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Originally Posted by Taeth

IMO Hagler clearly beats Monzon who great smaller guys as well, but not as great Duran or Leonard or Hearns.

IMO Bernard is the best middleweight ever that I've seen and I think he beats either Monzon or Hagler because he is too crafty while still having all of Hagler's mean streak.

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Imagine how good Monzon would have been had he trained! He only trained 1 month before a fight and only did roadwork and went half pace in sparring, he drank heavily, chain smoked and f***ed anything with a skirt on. He fought with a bullet lodged in his shoulder for the last 5 years of his career courtesy of his enraged wife at the time. Benvenuti was no bum and Monzon destroyed him twice, he beat the legend Emile Griffith and long time Welterweight king Jose Napoles. 14 title defenses and unbeaten in his last 13 years as a pro, i don't see Hagler beating him clearly.
Someone has to make a movie on Monzon's life, the guy was incredible in the ring, but outside the ring he was out of control.

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So he beat the great Griffith? He wasn't so great at MW. Rubin Carter KO'd him in round 1 and he wasn't as great as some people and Hollywood make out.

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Well i think Leonard had the chin to with stand Jones punching but also he had the power to land the question i had is if he landed often enough would he have the power to knock Jones out that was my question was how good do you think Leonards power was at the weight of mw.

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I think Jones' chin at MW would stand up to Leonards power no problem. Jones' power and speed though would give leonard hell IMO.

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Im a huge SRL fan and I agree he would give him hell especially at MW. SRL at his best IMO was at welter.

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I totally agree with you on that. In fact barring SRR I think that SRL is the greatest welterweight of all time and I know some people will try to give me hell for that comment!

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

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Originally Posted by Taeth

IMO Hagler clearly beats Monzon who great smaller guys as well, but not as great Duran or Leonard or Hearns.

IMO Bernard is the best middleweight ever that I've seen and I think he beats either Monzon or Hagler because he is too crafty while still having all of Hagler's mean streak.

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Imagine how good Monzon would have been had he trained! He only trained 1 month before a fight and only did roadwork and went half pace in sparring, he drank heavily, chain smoked and f***ed anything with a skirt on. He fought with a bullet lodged in his shoulder for the last 5 years of his career courtesy of his enraged wife at the time. Benvenuti was no bum and Monzon destroyed him twice, he beat the legend Emile Griffith and long time Welterweight king Jose Napoles. 14 title defenses and unbeaten in his last 13 years as a pro, i don't see Hagler beating him clearly.
Someone has to make a movie on Monzon's life, the guy was incredible in the ring, but outside the ring he was out of control.

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So he beat the great Griffith? He wasn't so great at MW. Rubin Carter KO'd him in round 1 and he wasn't as great as some people and Hollywood make out.

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

I think Jones' chin at MW would stand up to Leonards power no problem. Jones' power and speed though would give leonard hell IMO.

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Im a huge SRL fan and I agree he would give him hell especially at MW. SRL at his best IMO was at welter.

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I totally agree with you on that. In fact barring SRR I think that SRL is the greatest welterweight of all time and I know some people will try to give me hell for that comment!

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I havent really seen any fights on SRR at welter so I myself am not so sure either. But i do think that Leonard definatly fought the better opposition at welter though.

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Imagine how good Monzon would have been had he trained! He only trained 1 month before a fight and only did roadwork and went half pace in sparring, he drank heavily, chain smoked and f***ed anything with a skirt on. He fought with a bullet lodged in his shoulder for the last 5 years of his career courtesy of his enraged wife at the time. Benvenuti was no bum and Monzon destroyed him twice, he beat the legend Emile Griffith and long time Welterweight king Jose Napoles. 14 title defenses and unbeaten in his last 13 years as a pro, i don't see Hagler beating him clearly.
Someone has to make a movie on Monzon's life, the guy was incredible in the ring, but outside the ring he was out of control.

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So he beat the great Griffith? He wasn't so great at MW. Rubin Carter KO'd him in round 1 and he wasn't as great as some people and Hollywood make out.

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

Im a huge SRL fan and I agree he would give him hell especially at MW. SRL at his best IMO was at welter.

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I totally agree with you on that. In fact barring SRR I think that SRL is the greatest welterweight of all time and I know some people will try to give me hell for that comment!

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I havent really seen any fights on SRR at welter so I myself am not so sure either. But i do think that Leonard definatly fought the better opposition at welter though.

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Sorry mate he is second to Robinson to me!

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Its interesting because we've seen two versions of Hopkins. 1 version was ferocious like Hagler, with better defense, but less power. Then the second version was an old slickster who knew how to do anything to win a fight, but more importantly nobody ever really nullified Hagler's offensive arsenal, while I don't think I've seen anybody including RJJ, Pavlik, Trinidad, De La Hoya, and Calzaghe be effective offensively against Hopkins.

Anyways sorry for bringing him up, Its just I would have loved to have seen them battle out the middleweights supremecy.

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No need to appologise mate. Your so right about the evident clash of styles.

SRR was at his best at Welter, so was SRL.

Hagler probably was the greatest middleweight.

Dare I introduce Floyd Mayweather Jr into the best welterweight? I have to. I think he would beat SRL but Im not sure about SRR. What do you guys think?