I'm rootin for Hatton but I don't know if he should be ranked P4P best for beating a smaller man than him. Oscar fight aside.
I kinda think he should though.
What do you think?
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I'm rootin for Hatton but I don't know if he should be ranked P4P best for beating a smaller man than him. Oscar fight aside.
I kinda think he should though.
What do you think?
No. If Hatton beats Pac, then JMM is #1 p4p by default. JMM will be campaigning at 140 division pretty soon. And Hatton will gonna have to beat him too in order to get the #1 p4p status.
He moves up 2 or 3 places in the P4P list.
Depending on how he beats Pac he *might* crack the top 5. No way does he deserve to be #1.
No and No....Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinito
Hatton beats Pacquiao and it just proves he is undefeated at 140... so you can crown him king at 140. Hatton will have bragging rights that he beat the #1 P4P ranked fighter, but that's it!
Marquez should have to earn the P4P #1. It not be a given.... IMO, Marquez would still has to beat Pacquaio or Hatton to take over the P4P slot.
I really doubt he will become number 1 but he could get close to it if he blows Manny away by KO, definitely top 5.
If he beats Manny on decision I would put him up to number 6. He'd have to beat him convicingly to get in a top 5 spot imo. #5 is Mosley and he blew Margarito away to get there.
If he beats Pac and Marquez he gets #1 though, people can say what they want about size but there isnt much in it and if you win against #1 and #2 you deserve it for sure.
Just as interesting is where would Manny go if he loses? Can he still be #1?
you mean the same way that Pacquiao was basically handed the P4P #1 spot just for beating David Diaz since Mayweather had retired :-\, IMO Marquez has enough credentials to argue to be #1 right now, a Pacquiao loss would only solidify that claimQuote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyNo and No....Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinito
Hatton beats Pacquiao and it just proves he is undefeated at 140... so you can crown him king at 140. Hatton will have bragging rights that he beat the #1 P4P ranked fighter, but that's it!
Marquez should have to earn the P4P #1. It not be a given.... IMO, Marquez would still has to beat Pacquaio or Hatton to take over the P4P slot.
I agree with most of you guys, I think that would put Ricky up a few notches, but no way should he become the #1 p4p for beating Manny.
If Pac loses, I think the P4P crown goes to JMM. I know he lost to Manny, but I think with the nature of the loss (an EXTREMELY close, controversial decision as opposed to a lopsided decision or a KO) would still allow JMM to step up into the #1 spot, because I think JMM is just inches away from the spot right now. I mean he moves up in weight and gets KO wins over two top 3 LWs. The guy is just a machine.
my thoughts exactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Nah.I'm rooting for Hatton to leave Pacquioa in tatters but thats a huge task and an uphill battle all of the way.
JMM has more than earned everything he has,stands firm at #2 p4p and has maintained a top ten ranking over the last 12 + years,in respected divisions.If Hatton pulls it off vs. Manny.....someone has to take the spot,but I dont think it should/will be Hatton.He'll jump up some ticks and undeniably be top dog at 140 but JMM with his nip & tuck controversial battles with Manny.....not to mention his mass skillset assumes #1 slot p4p.This is why p4p ranking are really murky.
Pacquiao was #2 when Mayweather retired. Therefore he became a #1 by default. And then he cemented that position with his victory against JMM, and then he cemented it again with another win against David Diaz, and then he put a big exclamation mark by beating DLH. And that all happened in the same year. 3-0 with 2 world titles in 2 different divs.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesyou mean the same way that Pacquiao was basically handed the P4P #1 spot just for beating David Diaz since Mayweather had retired :-\, IMO Marquez has enough credentials to argue to be #1 right now, a Pacquiao loss would only solidify that claimQuote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyNo and No....Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinito
Hatton beats Pacquiao and it just proves he is undefeated at 140... so you can crown him king at 140. Hatton will have bragging rights that he beat the #1 P4P ranked fighter, but that's it!
Marquez should have to earn the P4P #1. It not be a given.... IMO, Marquez would still has to beat Pacquaio or Hatton to take over the P4P slot.
Pac-JMM was a really close fight and it could have gone the other way. It's really hard to avoid controversy in a razor thin bout. But I trust the judges decisions coz everyone of them viewed/judged the fight in 3 different angles and came up with Pac victory.
Now about Diaz and DLH. Call any of them paper champ, overhyped, weight drained or whatever. The fact is Pac didn't just beat them... HE BEAT THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF THEM.
JMM will be number 1 if Pac loses. Now where will Floyd be placed in the p4p if he beats Corey impressively?
It wasn't because Pacquiao beat David Diaz that he was p4p #1, he had already beaten Marquez thus was above him, then as soon as Mayweather retired Pacman became p4p king.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesyou mean the same way that Pacquiao was basically handed the P4P #1 spot just for beating David Diaz since Mayweather had retired :-\, IMO Marquez has enough credentials to argue to be #1 right now, a Pacquiao loss would only solidify that claimQuote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyNo and No....Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinito
Hatton beats Pacquiao and it just proves he is undefeated at 140... so you can crown him king at 140. Hatton will have bragging rights that he beat the #1 P4P ranked fighter, but that's it!
Marquez should have to earn the P4P #1. It not be a given.... IMO, Marquez would still has to beat Pacquaio or Hatton to take over the P4P slot.
Manny was put as #1 as soon as Mayweather retired, and even at that point people were arguing that Calzaghe should be given the position, JMM's last 2 wins have been bigger than Pacquiao's last to wins, and how can anyone seriously argue that Manny should still be #1 if he loses to Hatton?:confused::-\Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethIt wasn't because Pacquiao beat David Diaz that he was p4p #1, he had already beaten Marquez thus was above him, then as soon as Mayweather retired Pacman became p4p king.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesyou mean the same way that Pacquiao was basically handed the P4P #1 spot just for beating David Diaz since Mayweather had retired :-\, IMO Marquez has enough credentials to argue to be #1 right now, a Pacquiao loss would only solidify that claimQuote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
That's not what we are arguing, and how are JMM last two wins bigger? Joel Casamayor was almost KO'ed by Katsidis and barely beat that bum before he gave JMM one hell of a fight before getting stopped, Once again Juan Diaz lost to Nate Campbell, and he was giving Marquez all he could handle for most of their fight and hurt Juan despite having almost no power. No way are those wins bigger than the annihilation of both David Diaz and Oscar Dela Hoya. Say what you want about Dela Hoya but Casamayor was never as good p4p as Oscar and just as washed up if not moreso, Casamayor hasn't looked very good in years, while Pacquiao was the first person to make Oscar look bad.
If Pacquiao loses he definitely loses the throne to JMM who is right behind him. I am just saying right now he undoubtebly deserves it. Also IMO Hopkins-Calzaghe was more in favor of hopkins than Pacman-JMM II was in favor of JMM, and more outsiders saw it that way as well.
Hatton seems to think that beating Pacquiao will make him the number 1 P4P in the world.
In most peoples eyes that's not how it works and proof of it has happened in the past :
Tarver didn't become number 1 beating Jones
Forrest didn't become number 1 beating Mosley
Taylor didn't become number 1 beating Hopkins
But it got me thinking, Marquez propelled himself to the second spot after his close loss to Pacquiao with his two recent fights where he stopped a past his prime but still good Casamayor ( the only man to ever stop him) and a young big skilled pressure fighter in Juan Diaz who he also stopped and again a guy who had never been stopped previously.
Now If Hatton was to beat Pacquiao that would mean he has a win over a guy that Marquez couldn't beat twice, I do admit Marquez could of argueable won them both but it doesn't change the actual result.
So would a win over a top fighter and champion at 140 in Malignaggi and a win over one of the best fighters in this generation and the current number 1 fighter in the sport possibly push Hatton above Marquez on the P4P list ?
As far as skills are concerned i think Marquez is a league above Hatton but P4P lists are based on a fighters resume.
Let me know what you guys think.
I'd love Hatton to become the best P4P fighter in the world but beating both Pac and Marquez in great fashion would be the only way he gets anywhere near IMO
Beating Pacman does not even get Hatton in the top 3 for me.
It would'nt matter who Hatton beats,there will always be people putting conditions in front of him!
Beating Pacquiao would get Hatton close to the top, but not #1 imo. But I can see the argument for it...
Far too much thought is put into creating no matter what happens a mythical title holder.
To a point it is ridiculous enough to rate for arguments sake, a thousand men who consider themselves Junior Welterweights.
To rate every single active professional fighter from the 4' 10" 105lber to the 7' 1" 350lber in one pound for pound division is .......
Fun, providing you do not put too much emphasis and indeed conditions on what is just an opinion.
If Hatton were to beat both Pacquiao and Mosley with Mayweather Jr out of the picture, I'd say he'd probably take over the #1 slot. If Mayweather is back into the consideration it throws the thing out of wack!
If he beat both Pacquiao & Mosley it would be difficult not to rate Hatton 1st!Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
So it's official. Noone that has posted here has claimed that Hatton should be # 1 p4p should he stop Pacquiao. My.... that IS refreshing. Carry on, gentlemen.
;D
David Diaz was beaten (although given the gift of the decision) by an old and shot Erik Morales, and De La Hoya was shot and weight drained, Diaz only lost to Campbell who had just beaten Funeka, and Casamayor had just KO'd Katsidis who is still considered a top 10 player at 135, so yea, still sounds like JMM's last two wins are bigger than Pac's sorry budQuote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Oscar had foughten a close fight with Mayweather, and beat Steve Forbes handily. His performance against Forbes showed he was still on a higher level than old Casamayor or overrated juan Diaz are capable of, and PAcquiao kicked the shit out of them, while Juan Manuel Marquez did beat them, but both fights were really competitive throughout almost the whole thing.
Its not just who you beat, but how you beat them, and who is supposed to win, JMM was suppose to beat Juan Diaz and Casamayor, Pacquiao wasn't suppose to beat Oscar De La Hoya, but he destroyed him.
:yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
If Hatton beats Pac he becomes #2.
1. JMM
2. Hatton
3.Pac
If Pac beats Hatton then Pac becomes #1.
1. Pac
2. JMM
Of course this is just MY opinion. I currently have JMM as #1
Also you keep on hating on David Diaz, but didn't he beat that Santa Cruz who by all accounts got robbed against Casamayor?
It's not just Hatton that's been saying it. I saw his Dad and DLH saying the same bloody thing in interviews. Well, DLH controls the world these days so perhaps he will be P4P no. 1. :-\
As much as I like Hatton I would put him at number 5 if he wins. A follow up win over Marquez would take him to the top IMO. Two huge names in a row, you wouldn't be able to argue with that.
But beating Pac alone, who has been smoke and mirrors above 130, is not enough as far as I'm concerned.
Smoke and mirrors, honestly can a guy get no credit for destroying David Diaz and Oscar? Sure other people have beaten them before, but nobody came even close to doing to them what Pacquiao did. It was Oscar who was getting beat down in his last 3 fights but a guy who had a beat the crap out of Mayorga(way more impressively than Mosley), was competitive against Mayweather(except in the scoring sense if you have eyes), and won nearly every round against Forbes, and landed a lot considering how skilled defensively Forbes is, and its understandable he wasn't able to take the granite Forbes out who doesn't seem to get hurt(ala James Toney). Sure Oscar might have no quite been Oscar, but he didn't have the same type of terrible performances Casamayor against Cruz, or even the scare he had against Katsidis, he didn't lose to a journeyman like Nate Campbell either.
I can cerainly see the argument for putting him at number 1.
He'll have beaten 3 top ten fighters in the last 4 years (tszyu #2/3, Castillo was at number 10 when the fight was made, maybe slipped down a few places when the fight took place and Pac is number 1)
The problem with saying he'd be outside the top 3 is the fact that you'd be hard pushed to put 3 fighters ahead of him. Pac would lose stock with a loss, JMM has lost and drawn with Pac, Hopkins has recently lost altho he looked exceptional beating Pavlik and Tarver, Mosely deserves props for his win against Margarito, but has lost to Cotto who lost to Margarito....argh! Vasquez has been inactive, so has Rafael Marquez.
At the minute i think a lot have him anywhere between 7-11 but that's with including 2 inactive fighters in Rafa Marquez and Israel Vasquez.
When i compiled my p4p ratings i ommited Marquez and Vasquez due to inactivity so in turn Hatton moved up a few places. A win over pacman would most likely move him up another 2/3 places.
I'd probably side with Mick who has him at #2 behind Marquez but again i wouldn't argue with anybody having Hatton at #1. Techincally he is probably a level below the guys around him but the fact is he has wins over Tszyu, Castillo, Malignaggi, Urango, Collazo and if he were to win he'd have one over Pacman.
what difference does it make? if all goes as planned and Mayweather does come out of retirement, he'll be #1 again by the end of the year ;D lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ono
I was actually thinking that when i was typing it. I was also thinking i think pac will win anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleswhat difference does it make? if all goes as planned and Mayweather does come out of retirement, he'll be #1 again by the end of the year ;D lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ono
I haven't done a top ten in ages, I'm not totally sure Hatton would be in it right now if I did one but either way if he was he'd be bottom third so a Pac win would move him top five probably but definitely not number 1.
I agree, I see both sides of the argument, most guys in the top 10 have recent losses so it's difficult (if Hatton wins) to keep him out of the top 3 as there aren't that many stand outs. However beating Pac doesn't put him above Pac as he is a much larger guy, beating Pac in December wouldn't have put Oscar in the top 5 so it shouldn't for Ricky.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
Neither does it put his achievements above Marquez's, maybe the aging Casa and Juan Diaz weren't truly elite fighters, but they were both top 3 (with Campbell) at lightweight straight after moving up, it would be similar in acheivement if Hatton went up and KO'ed Berto and Clottey, something not even his diehard looney fans would expect.
Casamayor was at the top of the division because he ko'ed an overrated Katsidis, and Juan Diaz is pretty good, but he lost to Campbell and gave Marquez a hell of a fight, he's pretty good, but he shouldn't be giving Marquez that type of fight.
Hatton jumping to # 2 p4p for beating an undersized Pacquaio? Say it ain't so, Mick.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
:(
Think I would put him about #4/5 if he beats Pac
But if he wins he has to go above Pac - so does that mean Pac drops to number 6 ?? No way will Pac drop that for.
It's a tough one - and where does PBF go when he announces his return (has that happened yet ? thought it was supposed to be yesterday he announced it but not seen owt on news)
Tomorrow morning I will give it some more thought ;)
didn't a shot Morales beat Diaz and got robbed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Hatton was beaten by an "undersized" Mayweather, and should be given full credit if he beats Pacquiao, Trinidad was given credit for beating the undersized Mayorga, same will go for Berto if he beats Urango, and basically same crap happened when Khan beat Barrera, but yea i rank Hatton #5 if he beats Pacquiao, push Manny down to #3, JMM to #1, and B-Hop to #2Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanHatton jumping to # 2 p4p for beating an undersized Pacquaio? Say it ain't so, Mick.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
:(