Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
I would say that right now Manny has more bartering power than Floyd Mayweather and if this fight does take place he needs to stick to insisting it takes place at 140 lbs.
At 147 I think Manny gives up too much size and nullifies his chances but if the fight is made at 140 lbs, completely fair imo as Floyd can easily make that, then we are in for one hell of a fight.
A win for Floyd would mean more for his legacy if he beat Manny at 140 as well I think so I really hope the 140 lbs weight limit is where the fight occurs.
Also presuming Floyd beats Marquez then if this happens around Christmas it really would be the biggest fight in most of our lifetimes imo.
The winner (even if its Floyd) has a stake at being one of the top 3 fighters ever and maybe even challenging for number 1.
If Manny wins he would have run through 10 weight classes and beaten literally everyone great who was available to fight in his generation.
If Floyd wins he would also have beaten all the greats of his generation up to light welter, and I really don't hold it against him too much if he skips on Williams and Mosely as Floyd is a small guy too who fought well above his weight limits.
If Floyd retired undefeated with wins over Corales, Castillo, De La Hoya, Hatton, Marquez and Pacqauio that's a serious legacy right there and if Manny rose from minimun weight to going 8-1-1 against Marquez, Barrera, Morales, De La Hoya, Hatton and Mayweather, for me that would be the best resume of all time.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
Doesn't really matter though I think we can all stop with the legacy talk, both are great fighters who will be ranked accordingly but all this talk about where they stand on the ATG list is premature. No reason to start weighing Robinson's credentials against either of these guys, rerally.
As for bartering power, again it doesn't really matter to be honest, at least not to me. I'm just interested in seeing how Mayweather tries to neautralize Pacquiao's offense and moreso, what gameplan Roach has for Mayweather. I thought the Roach plan for De La Hoya against Mayweather wasn't to great. The whole turn De La Hoya into a bully thing didn't work out so great as Oscar had spent his whole career beating guys in the center of the ring, Oscar was out of his element fighting the way he did imo.
The last two fights the gameplans have been amazing and like Steward said, Pacquiao is the perfect pupil because you see how much he improves each fight and you see how willing to listen to instruction he is. He's really dialed in right now and it makes for a great fight. Style wise I don't even know who to compare to Pacquiao and don't know if there is someone you really can compare him to. It makes me wonder about a third Marquez fight, how that would go. I really do think Marquez won that last one as did most but that has all but been washed away now, I wonder just how much better this Pacquiao is then the one who fought Marquez then.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
Why would it have to be at 140? Hes had one fight at 147 and 140 and both very successful. So if he wants to prove hes the best then he should fight floyd at 147 where hes comfortable because its obvious that 147 didnt hurt pacman either. I think just coz one dominant performance at 140 it shouldnt mean that he should try and make the fight at that weight.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
snakey
Why would it have to be at 140? Hes had one fight at 147 and 140 and both very successful. So if he wants to prove hes the best then he should fight floyd at 147 where hes comfortable because its obvious that 147 didnt hurt pacman either. I think just coz one dominant performance at 140 it shouldnt mean that he should try and make the fight at that weight.
I just think Floyd being naturally the bigger man will gain more from it being at 147 than Manny will.
Drag Floyd down to 140 lbs and its a much closer fight imo, Floyd is having to give up something to meet Manny whereas at 147 Floyd gives up nothing and will have a few lbs natural weight advantage over Manny.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
Floyd's fights against Hatton and Dela Hoya sold more than Pacmans fights and providing Floyd wins well against Marquez he definately has the bargaining power over Pacman.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
50/50 split would be fair so after JMM they should make this fight for the fans.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
piye
Floyd's fights against Hatton and Dela Hoya sold more than Pacmans fights and providing Floyd wins well against Marquez he definately has the bargaining power over Pacman.
I'm not sure, it was Oscar who generated most of the sales in their fight and I guess more Americans would buy PPV to see Floyd vs Hatton over Manny vs Hatton because Floyd is American and I believe it only did 1.5 million buys less than half that of his fight with Oscar.
Manny has now destroyed Mayweathers' last two opponents. Floyd won a split decision over Oscar and Hatton took him 10 rounds, Manny has knocked both of them out and in completely dazzling style.
It will be interesting to see how the Mayweather Marquez PPV does and if that eclipses the Manny Hatton one.
I think Manny's commercial appeal has just gone up 100 percent though with that destruction of Hatton.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
I'm not sure about bartering power, but I agree that Manny should at least have enough power to keep the fight 143 or under.. He's a warrior though, and unfortunately he may end up taking the fight at 147 if Mayweather sticks to his guns even reasonably stubbornly... And unfortunately that would be a big disadvantage for Pac.. Floyd has the type of body that can get down to 147 for weigh in, but he'll come in much bigger than that, without losing any speed or being drained in any way... Where as Pac just won't put on that much weight, and will be dominated just in size alone...
In a way, generally the basics of negotiation say that the person who is most prepared to walk away has the most bartering power..... And Floyd will say that he can take any fight out there and unless he has it all his own way, he'll happily go and fight someone else who is a lesser threat, and will feel perfectly fine about it... Pac being the true warrior that he is will want to take on the biggest challenge he can, and may end up fighting Mayweathers fight before the Anthems have even been sung... I hope that doesn't happen, as I think both these fighters have paid their dues, and the paramaters of the fight should at the very least be split straight down the middle so it's even when they step in the ring, and natural fighting ability is the main thing that plays into the result.....
Hopefully Bob Arum wants to do right by his main man, and will actually be prepared to walk away if Pac is going to get completely stiffed.. EVEN if it is meaning fight fans all over the world are going to miss out on one of the match ups of the decade.... That's where Floyd's has the upper hand.. He can walk away from that type of matchup...
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dizaster
I'm not sure about bartering power, but I agree that Manny should at least have enough power to keep the fight 143 or under.. He's a warrior though, and unfortunately he may end up taking the fight at 147 if Mayweather sticks to his guns even reasonably stubbornly... And unfortunately that would be a big disadvantage for Pac.. Floyd has the type of body that can get down to 147 for weigh in, but he'll come in much bigger than that, without losing any speed or being drained in any way... Where as Pac just won't put on that much weight, and will be dominated just in size alone...
In a way, generally the basics of negotiation say that the person who is most prepared to walk away has the most bartering power..... And Floyd will say that he can take any fight out there and unless he has it all his own way, he'll happily go and fight someone else who is a lesser threat, and will feel perfectly fine about it... Pac being the true warrior that he is will want to take on the biggest challenge he can, and may end up fighting Mayweathers fight before the Anthems have even been sung... I hope that doesn't happen, as I think both these fighters have paid their dues, and the paramaters of the fight should at the very least be split straight down the middle so it's even when they step in the ring, and natural fighting ability is the main thing that plays into the result.....
Hopefully Bob Arum wants to do right by his main man, and will actually be prepared to walk away if Pac is going to get completely stiffed.. EVEN if it is meaning fight fans all over the world are going to miss out on one of the match ups of the decade.... That's where Floyd's has the upper hand.. He can walk away from that type of matchup...
See I'm not sure that is the case. Manny even with Floyd coming out of retirement is now unquestionably p4p number 1 and Floyd won't get that title back until Manny loses.
We all know Floyd never wanted to fight the real threats at welterweight, and maybe for good reason, so if he doesn't fight Manny where will he go?
He's not going to touch Paul Williams, and Cotto has already been knocked out so any lustre or props that Floyd would get from taking that fight have been diminished.
That really only leaves Sugar Shane as his option for a super fight, a guy who although exceptionally talented has never been a big ppv attraction, for some reason his fights just don't really sell.
Floyd could make double the money fighting Manny at least, and its a fight the public would demand.
He cannot afford to be seen to dodge Manny imo wheres Manny has plenty of other options. Cotto, a Marquez rematch, unifying the light welter division, maybe even Mosely himself. Significantly victory in any of these fights would ensure that Manny was clearly p4p number 1 and Floyd unless he took a huge risk and was willing to move up and fight Paul Williams probably at 154 would not be able to do anything in the eyes of the public and media that was as impressive as what Manny is doing.
I really think Manny holds the bartering power here and if I was him I'd insist on the fight happening at 140.
If they don't agree try and drag Cotto down to 140 or just win another junior welter world title and wait until Floyd has no option but to fight him
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
snakey
Why would it have to be at 140? Hes had one fight at 147 and 140 and both very successful. So if he wants to prove hes the best then he should fight floyd at 147 where hes comfortable because its obvious that 147 didnt hurt pacman either. I think just coz one dominant performance at 140 it shouldnt mean that he should try and make the fight at that weight.
I just think Floyd being naturally the bigger man will gain more from it being at 147 than Manny will.
Drag Floyd down to 140 lbs and its a much closer fight imo, Floyd is having to give up something to meet Manny whereas at 147 Floyd gives up nothing and will have a few lbs natural weight advantage over Manny.
Floyd might be taller, but he sure doesn't look bigger than PAcquiao has of late. I don't think it matters where the fight is at except that Floyd might have a hard time going back down to 140 because he has put on muscle since then, and he isn't as young as he once was. IMO they should fight at 143ish, They would come into the ring at about the same size because Floyd never puts on more than 5 pounds, and even if he did it wouldn't be more than 7 so they would be like 2 pounds apart in weight.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
It would be great if the fight would happen at 140.
I was thinking yesterday that Floyd needs Manny more than Manny needs Floyd.
Mayweather was NEVER a decent PPV draw by himself. It was always the names of his opponents that created the hype and generated sales.
It's kind of like "anything you can do I can do better." Floyd gives an overly-cautious fight versus Oscar that goes 12, Manny stops Oscar in 8. Floyd stops Hatton in 10, Pacquiao stops him in 2.
So here Floyd was thinking he is one of the goat, but he may not even be the greatest of his generation.
Pac is a bonafide solo ppv draw right now. He comes to fight, he comes to give action. Pac has character and charisma, even general fans of the sport see there is something special about him.
I think Pac should get 60/40 and make mayweather come down to 140. If this is at 147 I think Pac might get beat up. 140 makes a more interesting fight, floyd can make 140, and pac should have the edge in demands.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cortez The Killer
It would be great if the fight would happen at 140.
I was thinking yesterday that Floyd needs Manny more than Manny needs Floyd.
Mayweather was NEVER a decent PPV draw by himself. It was always the names of his opponents that created the hype and generated sales.
It's kind of like "anything you can do I can do better." Floyd gives an overly-cautious fight versus Oscar that goes 12, Manny stops Oscar in 8. Floyd stops Hatton in 10, Pacquiao stops him in 2.
So here Floyd was thinking he is one of the goat, but he may not even be the greatest of his generation.
Pac is a bonafide solo ppv draw right now. He comes to fight, he comes to give action. Pac has character and charisma, even general fans of the sport see there is something special about him.
I think Pac should get 60/40 and make mayweather come down to 140. If this is at 147 I think Pac might get beat up. 140 makes a more interesting fight, floyd can make 140, and pac should have the edge in demands.
You can take Floyd's name out of every sentence you just wrote and replace it with Manny's and your statements are still the same. Fact remains, Manny also has yet to headline a blockbuster PPV without a big name in the opposite corner just like Floyd. I doubt either of these guys could sell a million PPVs by fighting a Javier Castillejo like DLH did. Floyd fans only want to see him fight Manny, and Manny fans only want to see him fight Floyd. Neither needs the other any less. They both need each other. 50-50 seems right.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
match
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cortez The Killer
It would be great if the fight would happen at 140.
I was thinking yesterday that Floyd needs Manny more than Manny needs Floyd.
Mayweather was NEVER a decent PPV draw by himself. It was always the names of his opponents that created the hype and generated sales.
It's kind of like "anything you can do I can do better." Floyd gives an overly-cautious fight versus Oscar that goes 12, Manny stops Oscar in 8. Floyd stops Hatton in 10, Pacquiao stops him in 2.
So here Floyd was thinking he is one of the goat, but he may not even be the greatest of his generation.
Pac is a bonafide solo ppv draw right now. He comes to fight, he comes to give action. Pac has character and charisma, even general fans of the sport see there is something special about him.
I think Pac should get 60/40 and make mayweather come down to 140. If this is at 147 I think Pac might get beat up. 140 makes a more interesting fight, floyd can make 140, and pac should have the edge in demands.
You can take Floyd's name out of every sentence you just wrote and replace it with Manny's and your statements are still the same. Fact remains, Manny also has yet to headline a blockbuster PPV without a big name in the opposite corner just like Floyd. I doubt either of these guys could sell a million PPVs by fighting a Javier Castillejo like DLH did. Floyd fans only want to see him fight Manny, and Manny fans only want to see him fight Floyd. Neither needs the other any less. They both need each other. 50-50 seems right.
Nah I don't think that's the case. Against Marquez Manny generated over almost 500,000 buys which is an all time record for any fight below welterweight. He got 1.25 million buys against Oscar in a fight that prior to the first bell was supposed to be an Oscar walkover.
With his demolition of Oscar and now a 2 round destruction of Hatton Pacquio's marketability has gone through the roof.
Prior to his fight with De La Hoya Floyd had never generated over 400,000 buys, his fights with Gatti, Judah and Baldomir avering only around 350,000 each.
It is yet to be seen how popular Floyd is without a big name star to dance with. It will be interesting to see how Pacquaio Hatton does compared with Floyd Marquez.
But without Manny where does Floyd go? Only Paul Williams and Shane Mosely are viable opponents, Floyd will never fight Williams and Mosely is a very limited PPV draw.
Manny meanwhile can take his pick from a third Marquez fight, Cotto, unification fights at light welter, Edwin Valero etc.
Floyd will know he cannot be considered the best fighter of his generation now without beating Manny Pacqiaou.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
match
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cortez The Killer
It would be great if the fight would happen at 140.
I was thinking yesterday that Floyd needs Manny more than Manny needs Floyd.
Mayweather was NEVER a decent PPV draw by himself. It was always the names of his opponents that created the hype and generated sales.
It's kind of like "anything you can do I can do better." Floyd gives an overly-cautious fight versus Oscar that goes 12, Manny stops Oscar in 8. Floyd stops Hatton in 10, Pacquiao stops him in 2.
So here Floyd was thinking he is one of the goat, but he may not even be the greatest of his generation.
Pac is a bonafide solo ppv draw right now. He comes to fight, he comes to give action. Pac has character and charisma, even general fans of the sport see there is something special about him.
I think Pac should get 60/40 and make mayweather come down to 140. If this is at 147 I think Pac might get beat up. 140 makes a more interesting fight, floyd can make 140, and pac should have the edge in demands.
You can take Floyd's name out of every sentence you just wrote and replace it with Manny's and your statements are still the same. Fact remains, Manny also has yet to headline a blockbuster PPV without a big name in the opposite corner just like Floyd. I doubt either of these guys could sell a million PPVs by fighting a Javier Castillejo like DLH did. Floyd fans only want to see him fight Manny, and Manny fans only want to see him fight Floyd. Neither needs the other any less. They both need each other. 50-50 seems right.
Nah I don't think that's the case. Against Marquez Manny generated over almost 500,000 buys which is an all time record for any fight below welterweight. He got 1.25 million buys against Oscar in a fight that prior to the first bell was supposed to be an Oscar walkover.
With his demolition of Oscar and now a 2 round destruction of Hatton Pacquio's marketability has gone through the roof.
Prior to his fight with De La Hoya Floyd had never generated over 400,000 buys, his fights with Gatti, Judah and Baldomir avering only around 350,000 each.
It is yet to be seen how popular Floyd is without a big name star to dance with. It will be interesting to see how Pacquaio Hatton does compared with Floyd Marquez.
But without Manny where does Floyd go? Only Paul Williams and Shane Mosely are viable opponents, Floyd will never fight Williams and Mosely is a very limited PPV draw.
Manny meanwhile can take his pick from a third Marquez fight, Cotto, unification fights at light welter, Edwin Valero etc.
Floyd will know he cannot be considered the best fighter of his generation now without beating Manny Pacqiaou.
You didn't dispute anything I just said. Do you honestly think Manny fans would be satisfied with him fighting Valero and never meeting Floyd? Also, Floyd-Hatton ppvs will be bigger than Floyd-Marquez, just as Manny-Hatton will be bigger than Manny-Marquez because Hatton has a bigger following than Marquez. Again, both fighters show that in order to leap past that 1 million ppv mark, they need another big name. Sure, both could make good money fighting Cotto and Mosley, but would make TWICE as much fighting each other. And most importantly, no matter who you have as number 1, both are clearly the 2 best fighters in the world, so even entertaining the idea of putting off the fight is robbing fans, bottom line.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
I buy a PPV fight because of the potential for a fight a real battle, I think most people are the same.
I have no Interest in paying in seeing a Mayweather/Marquez fight. (boring)
Fights I'd pay for in order:
Pac/Mayweather
Pac/Mosley
Pac/Cotto
Pac/JMM
Mayweather/Mosley
Fights I'd wait to watch on Youtube:
Mayweather/JMM
Mayweather/Cotto
Mayweather/Hatton-2
Mayweather/DelaHoya-2
Mayweather/Williams
Mosley/Cotto
IMO Mayweather lost his bid at having leverage for a 50/50 split when he signed up to face JMM. The major problem they have is timing. Pac's next oponents will either be Mosley or Cotto. I beleive Mosley did the smart thing money wise and that was to leave his date open. Now he is in the best position.
Mayweather will have to wait and see if he can realign the timing to face Pac or Mosley early 2010. What he actually has done is assure himself of having an excuse not to face Pacquiao, while cracking the door for a rematch with De La Hoya or Hatton. While it's not the matchup most fans would like to see, it will still draw a crowd. Mayweather might get a better paycheck with Cotto or Williams.
Pacquiao doesn't need Mayweather as much as Mayweather needs Pac. Pac can simply face Mosley or Cotto to get big paydays. While a bout with Mayweather has hugh potential, Pacquiao doesn't have IRS bills to pay. It's easy for Pac to walk away from the table. Mayweather might have to go down to a 60/40 split especially if his bout with JMM is down to 300k PPV. IMO.... Now seeing what Pac did with the Hatton bargaining. I can see Pac really cutting into the next pie.
Re: Floyd vs Manny who has the bartering power?
You just nailed it. Floyd is having problems with the IRS and needs money. He can have three JMM caliber fights and be fine, or he could fight Manny and be fine, either way he's gonna get paid. He already took a lower cut to Oscar due to the fact that Oscar was the bigger draw. If anyone honestly thinks he's taking less money than Manny when he can say his two biggest PPVs are bigger than any fight Manny ever had they're crazy. Regardless of what Manny is worth, Manny knows that beating Floyd means a world more than beating Cotto or Mosley.
