I think Froch should go with Bute first..give us another dramatic fight, up his bargaining power (£$£$£) then look at Kelly and Bernard.;)
http://www.livefight.com/news/kelly-...-fight_880.htm
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I think Froch should go with Bute first..give us another dramatic fight, up his bargaining power (£$£$£) then look at Kelly and Bernard.;)
http://www.livefight.com/news/kelly-...-fight_880.htm
I think he should fight Bernard first.
Just so i can see him get exposed and give Bhop his 3rd division title. ;)
Bute would dismantle Froch without problems, especially because he can sustain any major blows and has no stamina problems, peoples will put forward the fight with Andrade but once again, I would argue that he won every rounds except one on every judges cards and he floored Andrade, he just did a bit too much bravado in the last 10 seconds, thing he won't ever repeat again. Bute has green and Andrade II to pass first, then I think he'll go with the Ward-Miranda winner as optional fight and to give him more exposure to the US and then only perhaps Froch, Hopkins or the Vicking Kessler. At least, that's how I see things.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashup
Hopkins and Bute beat him , Pavlik fight is 50/50 . lets just hope Froch has nothing but big name fights.
This link appears to be broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashup
dude you're forgetting the undeniability of the froch factorQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
Froch: Something or somebody that will not be denied
I think he'll go with Pavlik first, and he probably should. B-Hop would destroy him.. Pavlik he at least has a chance with. ;D (A very slim one)
All three will beat Froch, though I think Pavlik is the closest fight in terms of who I think will win, assuming Hopkins hasn't finally started slipping in a major way.
I think they all should beat him but I wont say Carl couldn't win..except against B-hop who would badly expose him.
He has a punchers chance cos he's one of those guys.But they are all better boxers than Carl
Bute wants Froch ion the worst way, I covered the fight and talked w Bute he seemed to be drooling at the thought of being IBF and WBC SMW champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashup
Good for Froch and his pull out win but he was losing handily until JT tuckered out, Bute will not tire, Hopkins can box 100 rounds and with Frochs sloppy defense he would tag Carl all night long.
Froch is a player for about 4 or 5 fights then he fades away unless there is a drastic improvement
Pavlik hasn't looked that great above 160 in his two outings there so that's a fight I'd favor froch in slightly. Bute and bhop beat froch in convincing fashion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessBute would dismantle Froch without problems, especially because he can sustain any major blows and has no stamina problems, peoples will put forward the fight with Andrade but once again, I would argue that he won every rounds except one on every judges cards and he floored Andrade, he just did a bit too much bravado in the last 10 seconds, thing he won't ever repeat again. Bute has green and Andrade II to pass first, then I think he'll go with the Ward-Miranda winner as optional fight and to give him more exposure to the US and then only perhaps Froch, Hopkins or the Vicking Kessler. At least, that's how I see things.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashup
He didn't 'floor' andrade, he pushed him down on the canvas. As for winning every round, i would say maybe but not by much. Bute was hurt a number of times during the fight but of course marlen b wright helped bute out constantly and allowed him to hold constantly. But would be ko'd in 3 if he fought andrade again.
I disagree there,Quote:
Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamerQuote:
Originally Posted by NamelessBute would dismantle Froch without problems, especially because he can sustain any major blows and has no stamina problems, peoples will put forward the fight with Andrade but once again, I would argue that he won every rounds except one on every judges cards and he floored Andrade, he just did a bit too much bravado in the last 10 seconds, thing he won't ever repeat again. Bute has green and Andrade II to pass first, then I think he'll go with the Ward-Miranda winner as optional fight and to give him more exposure to the US and then only perhaps Froch, Hopkins or the Vicking Kessler. At least, that's how I see things.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashup
He didn't 'floor' andrade, he pushed him down on the canvas. As for winning every round, i would say maybe but not by much. Bute was hurt a number of times during the fight but of course marlen b wright helped bute out constantly and allowed him to hold constantly. But would be ko'd in 3 if he fought andrade again.
He didn't push him, look at the tape again, if you would say "Andrade did slip" I would say that it can be discussed though after reviewing the fight several times I am convinced he did knock him down. The rounds weren't even close, even on ESPN they did state that Andrade was getting schooled till the last 10 seconds, the closeness was just not there, Andrade had all difficulties to touch him. As for the revenge, I bet you 100 euros that Bute school him and doesn't get knocked out at all, Bute did everything well except for the last 10 seconds, he won't repeat that mistake again.
Last 10 seconds?? So he was doing good when he was collapsing onto the ropes with about 30 seconds left?? Only a Bute fanboy could think that was not a push, it was the least legitimate KD I can remember. Yes, no doubt Bute schooled him for probably 9 or 10 of the previous 11 rounds, but the simple fact is Wright gave the fight to Bute. Regardless of opinion on what happened at the end, it was some of the most corrupt refereeing I have ever seen. Also making money bets is always laughable, why not bet 1 million euros as there is as much chance of that being paidQuote:
Originally Posted by NamelessI disagree there,Quote:
Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamerQuote:
Originally Posted by Nameless
He didn't 'floor' andrade, he pushed him down on the canvas. As for winning every round, i would say maybe but not by much. Bute was hurt a number of times during the fight but of course marlen b wright helped bute out constantly and allowed him to hold constantly. But would be ko'd in 3 if he fought andrade again.
He didn't push him, look at the tape again, if you would say "Andrade did slip" I would say that it can be discussed though after reviewing the fight several times I am convinced he did knock him down. The rounds weren't even close, even on ESPN they did state that Andrade was getting schooled till the last 10 seconds, the closeness was just not there, Andrade had all difficulties to touch him. As for the revenge, I bet you 100 euros that Bute school him and doesn't get knocked out at all, Bute did everything well except for the last 10 seconds, he won't repeat that mistake again.
I am impartial, I like Bute, sure, but I have always been impartial for these situations as it goes from the credibility of boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinLast 10 seconds?? So he was doing good when he was collapsing onto the ropes with about 30 seconds left?? Only a Bute fanboy could think that was not a push, it was the least legitimate KD I can remember. Yes, no doubt Bute schooled him for probably 9 or 10 of the previous 11 rounds, but the simple fact is Wright gave the fight to Bute. Regardless of opinion on what happened at the end, it was some of the most corrupt refereeing I have ever seen. Also making money bets is always laughable, why not bet 1 million euros as there is as much chance of that being paidQuote:
Originally Posted by NamelessI disagree there,Quote:
Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer
He didn't push him, look at the tape again, if you would say "Andrade did slip" I would say that it can be discussed though after reviewing the fight several times I am convinced he did knock him down. The rounds weren't even close, even on ESPN they did state that Andrade was getting schooled till the last 10 seconds, the closeness was just not there, Andrade had all difficulties to touch him. As for the revenge, I bet you 100 euros that Bute school him and doesn't get knocked out at all, Bute did everything well except for the last 10 seconds, he won't repeat that mistake again.
First of all, it is not 30 seconds before the end but between 13 and 12 seconds, the time for the referee to give a count (telling, absolutely according to the rules) to Andrade to go back to his corner and to resume the fight.
Second, If you look at the match carefully, it's Andrade who was furiously jumping in Bute "Hatton" style to bully him, Bute had no choice to clinch because Andrade was virtually on him and it costs less energy to just clinch in these moments than to push plainly.
Third, I say 100 euros because I could afford such bet, I would never bet something I can't afford or that would put me in problems, no matter how, call me a conservatism prick but I would never put my life on the edge. In the same vein, as you don't know me at all, can I ask you how can you question my integrity and my "real will" to honore the bet to the end? If I would bet one million, I could understand as it is a bit crazy or unrealistic, 10 000 I could understand perhaps as well as it sounds the money that most don't have, but 100...
Also, Let's see what some of the greatest experts/professionals/important insiders have to say on the matter, by the book, the referee was right according to most specialists, this controversy, actually, has been steered up mainly by golden boy promotions (the same one that almost bailed before the fight because they wanted Interbox to force Bute to box with their gloves even though in the contract it was stipulated that the champion decides which gloves to use):
Russ Anber on the matter: http://watch.tsn.ca/in-this-corner/clip106538clip106538
Muhammad, president of the IBF on the matter: RDS - Bute : aucune irrégularité selon l'IBF (he's a prick but on that one he,s kinda right)
The very respected George Kimball about the false controversy of a robing in Montreal: Lucian Bute defeats Librado Andrade, but questions remain - ESPN
An article where Guy Jutras, judge over 81 fights state that Marlon B Wright didn’t do any wrongdoing and refereed the bout by the book: National Post Story
You're about as impartial on this as Danny G is about Cotto.Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessI am impartial, I like Bute, sure, but I have always been impartial for these situations as it goes from the credibility of boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinLast 10 seconds?? So he was doing good when he was collapsing onto the ropes with about 30 seconds left?? Only a Bute fanboy could think that was not a push, it was the least legitimate KD I can remember. Yes, no doubt Bute schooled him for probably 9 or 10 of the previous 11 rounds, but the simple fact is Wright gave the fight to Bute. Regardless of opinion on what happened at the end, it was some of the most corrupt refereeing I have ever seen. Also making money bets is always laughable, why not bet 1 million euros as there is as much chance of that being paidQuote:
Originally Posted by Nameless
First of all, it is not 30 seconds before the end but between 13 and 12 seconds, the time for the referee to give a count (telling, absolutely according to the rules) to Andrade to go back to his corner and to resume the fight.
Second, If you look at the match carefully, it's Andrade who was furiously jumping in Bute "Hatton" style to bully him, Bute had no choice to clinch because Andrade was virtually on him and it costs less energy to just clinch in these moments than to push plainly.
Third, I say 100 euros because I could afford such bet, I would never bet something I can't afford or that would put me in problems, no matter how, call me a conservatism prick but I would never put my life on the edge. In the same vein, as you don't know me at all, can I ask you how can you question my integrity and my "real will" to honore the bet to the end? If I would bet one million, I could understand as it is a bit crazy or unrealistic, 10 000 I could understand perhaps as well as it sounds the money that most don't have, but 100...
Also, Let's see what some of the greatest experts/professionals/important insiders have to say on the matter, by the book, the referee was right according to most specialists, this controversy, actually, has been steered up mainly by golden boy promotions (the same one that almost bailed before the fight because they wanted Interbox to force Bute to box with their gloves even though in the contract it was stipulated that the champion decides which gloves to use):
Russ Anber on the matter: http://watch.tsn.ca/in-this-corner/clip106538clip106538
Cannot see the clip, but using the premier Canadian boxing analyst is like someone referencing Steve Bunce to show Calzaghe beat Hopkins or that Jennings could beat Cotto. These guys almost always back the local boy.
Muhammad, president of the IBF on the matter: RDS - Bute : aucune irr�gularit� selon l'IBF (he's a prick but on that one he,s kinda right)
The President of the IBF, well of course he's going to back Wright, he's the one who allowed him to yet again referee a Bute fight (how many is that btw?). If he goes against Wright, he looks bad for selecting him.
The very respected George Kimball about the false controversy of a robing in Montreal: Lucian Bute defeats Librado Andrade, but questions remain - ESPN
George Kimball certainly does not say there is a false controversy, he says it is real, but that he thought Bute got up in time, that is fair enough. However, he acknowledges how bad Wright's performance was. Incidentally, his report is full of inaccuracies such as the fact Bute was floored with a left, it was a right.
An article where Guy Jutras, judge over 81 fights state that Marlon B Wright didn’t do any wrongdoing and refereed the bout by the book: National Post Story
Another link that doesn't work. Well, Jutras has never refereed a world championship fight, and his judging has been off a number of times for me, such as in the Pacquiao-Marquez fight. However, as a Canadian judge & former ref, do you really think that he would not have some relationship with Wright & come out & defend him. It's just like how refs & judges in this country defended Dave Parris after the Hatton-Tszyu & Khan-MAB fights.
Okay since you questioned the 30 second thing, here's 2 separate angles on video showing Bute out on his feet with 30 seconds remaining, the first particularly shows that he would have hit the canvas without the ropes with about 15-18 seconds left.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGM6WAfosj0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPPM5GVe3yc
The second also gives a rundown on how Wright favoured Bute, the ridiculous KD, and how his count differed dramatically for both men. All there needs to be is consistency. Now I'm perfectly willing to accept the argument that Bute made it up in time, even though I personally don't think he did, I can see how someone could argue that. What I can't understand is how anyone can defend Wright's performance, he let Bute hold Andrade's leg for the love of god.
On your first point, why is Wright looking at Andrade when he should be administering the count? His focus should be on the guy who's been taking a beating instead, because he has to be checking his eyes making sure he's ok. Andrade is on the other side of the ring, he's not loitering just behind Wright in a position where he could be on him in a second should he get up. As the video shows above Bute is out on his feet for the last 30 seconds & its referees not stepping in at these times that can lead to guys dying in the ring. His priority is the safety of the fighter not trying to help his mate retain his belt.
On your second point, yes both men were playing a little dirty, but Andrade is not going to outbox Bute, he just doesn't have the talent, he has to get on the inside, and Bute knew how to play there, but the difference was Wright let him do it, such as when he let him lift Andrade's leg off the ground. Do not try & paint it as just Andrade who was willing to bully. It obviously didn't cost that much energy to push as he was happy to do it to get a KD.
Your third point about the money. Hey, I'll take that bet with you, and if Andrade wins you send me the money yeah? If Bute wins, well like you say, you don't know me, so you can just trust in my good nature ;D
As for you list of the 'greatest experts' well I've put my thoughts above in red, although it was not Golden Boy stirring this up, it was public opinion. Find the threads about that fight on here or any boxing thread & you will see from the moment it happened how 99% of posters felt about Marlon B. Wrong. Now I don't want to hold anything against Bute, he's a great fighter, and I think he could even beat Kessler, and he'd take the piss with Froch. Moreover he showed some greats skills & heart throughout that fight & looked fantastic against Zuniga. I wouldn't be amazed if he beats Andrade in their rematch, he is something special. However, for you to defend everything he did shows you are not impartial as you say, if you were you would acknowledge how bad what went on that night was for the credibility of boxing.
1) Russ Anber is one of the finest and most impartial analyst in Canada, as for example, when Margarito (who used to be his favorite boxer) got caught with loaded gloves, he didn't get into no bullshits using arguments like "it could have been hand cream and stuff) he just said: "he's guilty, it's unfortunate, I can't defend him. You can't discredit him on the sole fact that he's canadian otherwise everytime, let's say an american defends or agree with an american boxer, it would be easy to pull the card of "well he's american and americans defend their boys therefore we can't take acount of it".
2) I never said there was no controversy, I said that Bute won fair and square according to the rules, which doesn't change what kimball said and what I stated, get the fact straight, I just said Bute won fairly the fight, the end was dramatic but nowhere there has been "cheating".
3) Marlon just followed the rules according to most specialists, sure he did let Bute grab but once again, he never come close to grab as much as Lennox Lewis used to do, Ruiz or Hatton, so where is the problem there? should he be solely blamed for something countless referee did let happen but in much worst and "exaggerate" way with the likes of Hatton, Lewis et cie?
4) On Guy Jutras, the guy is an international judge, do you think he minds to say that the guy lost? Absolutely not. Also, Bute is not canadian by the way, he trains in Montreal but he's Romanian (just like Andrade trains in Montreal too, by the way and is hugely popular over here too, almost as much as Bute). I don't know why the link doesn't work but here' another link, in french but with babel fish you should be able to get a correct translation: jminforme.ca - Guy Jutras explique les circonstances du 12e round Bute-Andrade | Par Marc Tougas, LA PRESSE CANADIENNE - Jminforme.ca
5) As for Russ Anber, it seems like in the last 24 hours Tsn did wash up their video section as most have been voided, stupid coincidence. However , here's a link that quotes him as saying, in the text, that no matter what we could say about the referee (which, once again, didn't allow more grabbing than most of Lewis matches, Ruiz or Hatton), Bute would have had time to stand up and make th count Lucian Bute defeats Librado Andrade, but questions remain - ESPN
6) I'Ve seen these videos COUNTLESS times, sure Bute has difficulties in the 30 last seconds but what the rules does say is: "as long as the boxer is able to defend himself and act consciously, the fight's on". Bute has no more juice, sure, but he was conscious and was moving logically to avoid the shots and as far as I know the rules, to do such thing to survive is legal and accepted, what is not is if ou get in a corner (for example) get bombed without any defense/resistence REPEATEDELY and getting in danger for health. This was obviously not to that point as he could moved till he get cornered and went down... to went up on time.
7) It takes one second to make sure that the other fighter goes to the corner as stipulated to the rules, the way you describe falsily it it's like if the referee would have looked at Andrade for 30 seconds ignoring that he was on the floor.
8) Do you really think that everytime there is a fight and that a referee doesn't act "correctly" the president of the alphabetic organisation looks bad? If he would pick a brand new out of the school referee for an important match, sure, when he picks a guy that has around 20 years of service? I don't think so, in fact, no, he can't be responsible for the mistakes somebody normally competent makes, it's like if you say that a whole police service (for example) would be responsible if an agent with 20 years of service burst his bubbles once and beat for no reasons somebody or to blame a school if one of his teachers decide to go to his work one morning totally wasted.
9) If you want to take the bet, sure, I accept, there is no proofs that YOU will pay as I don't know you but it is absolutely not a proof to contest my good will or or my honesty solely based on what YOU would do. I could even foster this argument further in saying that no matter with who you bet (even a close friend) you can't be 100% certain that he'll pay and even there there wouldn't much you could do. Also, such bet is kinda done publicly, on one hand, I do not want to lose my credibility infront of the whole community here and as you questioned my integrity, if I would win and that you wouldn't want to honor your bet, you can be sure that I would gladly use the "integrity and credibility" every time you would argue with somebody where you're defending a "controversial" point to show how we cannot give much credibility to your saying because you,re just not up to your words. 100 bucks which aren't lost but that should have been gained, that's not that much to nag at somebody for his inconsistency when he called somebody elses on that:)
10) I do not see where my impartiality is scorched, Bute made the count, the referee did let him grab because it was legit and not exagerated, I find our reason to question my integrity on that shallow actually, I agree with you it was a dramatic end and that it would have been a lot better if it wouldn'thave happened for everybody but controversy and dramatic doesn't mean that the victory wasn't legit and legal.
After struggling with raybacky or whoever his first time here then basicly waiting around for Taylor pass out to barely take that fight he'll I'd even take my chances with the guy. I know you all love the guy and I'm not saying he's crap but all these claims of greatness we just haven't seen it based on just what I've seen of the guy and I admit it ain't much but I'd even pick Allen green to ko this guy
Thats a bit harsh, you cant win with some people, so he waited for Taylor to pass out? Do you not think the punishment Froch was dishing out from round seven onwards had something to do with Taylor basically falling apart in the last round, Froch i dont like but give the guy some credit went into Taylors backyard and knocked him out, Froch would KO Green aswell imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mar
All this talk of Bute v. Froch, but how about Froch v. Green? Green over Froch?
Froch vs. Green Discussed After Bute Fight Tumbles - Boxing News
Bute - Spina? Ugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
That would really suck. I've heard the Green overpricing thing and thought (and it is still a possibility) that it was the reason but seriously, SPina, that is ludicrous and less than appealing. I hope that smoke will clear out and that we'll have the possibility to see Bute-Green or something more interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHBute - Spina? Ugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I think you underestimate him a bit but I do not contest peoples thinking Green's better, I contest those who got into the hype of the enf of the fight with Andrade when there is only a dramatic end and no real cheat, OI only hope that the Green=Bute fight will happen so we can have a clear view over it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mar
Points above. We're never going to agree so might as well leave it there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nameless