Printable View
I'm just curious why Berto gets so much heat for holding when I've seen Mayweather, Roy Jones, and especially Hopkins do it all the time in their fights. Even more recently Mosley against Mayorga and Margarito held quite a bit, especially against Antonio Margarito, why does Berto get so much more flack for it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
it was actually a very clever and accomplished performance from andre above anything else.
At this level you cant expect berto to dominate guys in every area and if anything came out of this fight its that berto is quite capable of adapting to differing styles!
I think he's getting slack because people were expecting him to come out and take care of Urango pretty easily if not by KO without the holding. Thats my only guess.
because berto was the bigger and faster guy. what's the holding for.
Many people including myself were predicting a 50/50 contest with urangos power perhaps getting the better of bertos speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadeb_21
If you took away andres last 2-3 fights you would indeed believe that he would blow urango away. But the opinion of andre now is that he is a powerful, fast fighter but is still technically naive and will get found out at the highest level!
partly how much he did it, partly how he ended the fight by rushing in to hold Angulo in a loving manner, but its mostly cause it seemed so incredibly pointless, Urango is not a good fighter and Berto could have opened up on him (without taking silly risks) but instead he did just enough to get by. Urango is not Margarito, not Calzaghe, etc.
I'm trying to think of a fight where Floyd held that much and I can't do it. Maybe I'm just forgetting something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
no offence ouma but even you have to agree result comes before performance!
If berto was from anywhere else in the world and fighting his 20th(whatever it is) fight he`d be up against another bum from across the road.
In the US however you toss your guys in the deep end and hope the swim rather than sink which is why you produce the most champs.
Sure but you have to be at least moderately entertaining if you want to become a star, people might say Floyd's boring but look at some of his fights with relatively lesser guys at his earlier weights, he was pretty exciting.
And Urango was a step down, there to be taken for Berto.
And Berto has twenty five fights, and he's been spotlighted since around his tenth fight or so, he's not a baby. If anything a majority of fighters of his stature are usually farther along than him.
Anyway I'm not a fan of Berto but he's not a puss (not that really any fighters are), he had an exciting fight last time out where he maybe fought too much, maybe he just overcompensated this time.
Hopkins gets heat for holding. It is one of the reasons I gave Calzaghe the win in their fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Holding is a tactic that makes sense to employ if the boxer is on shaky legs and at risk of being knocked down. However, it is very boring if used strategically like Hopkins uses it.
How are rounds scored again? What are the criteria?
Mosley/Margarito fight is a dumb comparison IMO, Margarito was the bigger man, and Mosley didn't hold for most of the fight, and with that said, Mosley banged out a TKO, Berto never even put a dent on Urango, say what you will but Berto's power is seriously overrated, his shots look big, but rarely hurt a REAL opponent seriously
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I try to judge each fight on the individual circumstances taking place.
Berto was wasting a chance to clobber Urango into submission. In my eyes that was a blatant case of someone not going for the jugular. I think Berto should of beaten Urango like Cotto beat Gomez.
I thought Berto did alright, in my eyes he got a shutout, and people aren't giving Urango's chin the credit it deserves, the guys never been dropped to the best of my knowledge, and I think Berto was just trying to avoid the kind of war he had with Collazo because Urango's power could hurt him. I think he's comin along at a nice rate, and I thought his performance was decent & not the borefest some are claimin
I think it wasn't so much the holding but the fact that the holding was implemented into his game strategy.
To me right now Berto is a Hatton level fighter judging how hes done against the comp that he has faced at the moment but still learning. Give him time he may not be the next Leonard or Jones but he while be elite and i think fight the top of his division just needs to work on some stuff needs a new trainer.
He held to spoil, he never tried to punch out of a clinch or set up a shot from one. It was dire.
Margarito and MOsley weighed the same amount, Margarito was only taller that night, and certainly not stronger. I think Mosley was smart in doing it, I just don't see why Berto should be criticized except by the fact that like somebody said that he could have done anything against Urango he wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
How come Berto hurt Collazo while MOsley didn't? How come he stopped David Estrada when Mosley didn't? He's foughten guys with great chins of late.
Urango did the same thing round after round, from round 1 to 12. He did not change his game plan at all, not even sure he could. Berto should have been able to have danced circles around Urango but was content to throw a couple of punches and hold. Urango was all too happy to oblige for most of the fight. Maybe if he would have made a better effort to look like he was trying to break away from the clinches and do work the ref would have been forced to deduct points from Berto. Yeah, there are other fighters who hold but when you are saying things like Berto does such as the sky is the limit, and bring on anyone, that is a poor way of showing you are ready and getting anyone to pay to see you fight.
There is no way I would ever pay to see this guy fight. There has been talk on here that he might face Clottey if he loses to Cotto, and I think Cotto wins. However, I highly doubt his management want any part of a strong welterweight like Clottey even after a loss. I think Clottey would walk right through Berto and beat him down.
Its one thing that had frustrated me the most as Berto has gone on....and its not a matter of him stepping up & fighting a muscle bound ranked guy with bombs in Urango...he did it against Estrada and he pulled it against the naturally smaller light hitter in Stevie Forbes.He literally efforts to get in and clinch...not as a strategy for setting up offense,or to recoup from being stung,it almost seems like he is doing it to think and/or to catch a breath.
I honestly do not think he knows his 'identity' as a fighter.Is a fast puncher and can flury in combo and move off...and at other times he loads up with one or two big shots and then just falls in holding.Said it during the rbr and may sound odd but His stiff legs do his quick hands a disservice.He was leaning forward so heavy in the Estrada fight,legs rigid then and now.
I agree with most of that, but he was actually moving really well, I am not sure how well he can transition that movement into offense, but I think thats partly because he keeps his stance too wide, sort of like Pacquiao, it makes it hard to move away then come forward all of the sudden unless you are very coordinated and skilled like Hopkins or Mayweather and you can leap in, and deny all conventional wisdom. He needs to shorten his stance for a few reasons, it seems too wide for him to have proper balance, he can't move as effectively, and he doesn't sink into his punches anyways.
These guys are going to do whatever they can get away with and still win. B-hop, hatton, mayweather most of these guys have thier own little things they do that breaks the rules. But while people are bitching about it they should be aware that they do and be prepared, once these guys are in there, it should be no crying no excuses. They try and catch the major stuff the rest is up to you. People can talk about why you lost but all that the record books, bank accts, and promoters care about is that you lost.
I think Berto needs a new trainer. Not because there's anything wrong with the one he's got, but he doesn't listen in between rounds.
He needs a trainer that keeps him focused and away from his dad at the fight. Berto kept looking back and talking to his dad more than he listened to his corner. It was ridiculous. I would have told dad to take over or stop giving instructions. He needs a trainer that will do that....
I have no problem with it. But he wasn't clinching properly. It was his biggest flaw of the night. A good elite would take advantage it.