How is Donaire ahead of Williams, Haye, Dawson etc?

Ok I know you guys will tell me what a super slick operator he is, but what has he actually done? :confused:

He knocked out Darchinyan in a big upset, and since then Darchinyan (NOT Donaire) has gone to do great things picking up titles in two weight classes and scoring big wins over Mijares (another hugely overinflated fighter) and Arce.

Donaire has the win over Darchinyan on his record and nothing else.

He has beaten ONE world champion, thats it. And I'm not talking about reigning champs here either, I mean only ONE opponent had EVER held a world title.

How the fuck does that put him above Paul Williams 3 time world champ in two weight classes plus a dominating win over one of the modern greats in Winky Wright?

How does that put him above David Haye, the unified cruiserweight world champ, or Chad Dawson the undefeated light heavyweight king with wins over two weight and reigning cruiserweight champ Adamek, plus wins over former undisputed champs (I think) Antonio Tarver (twice) and Glen Johnson?

How about Mikkell Kessler, three time world champ, wins over reigning champ Anthony Mundine, defending champ Marcus Beyer etc.

Has there EVER been a fighter who defeated ONE world champ who wasn't even in the top 10 p4p at the time and has never even fought let alone beat another world champ (not reigning but world champ at anytime in their career) and yet still gets a top place?

It's so undeserving, Juan Manuel Lopez has done just as much.

If people want to tell me he's super skillful and slick and I know nothing, ok maybe he is, but what has he actually done?

I was the only hater of Christian Mijares on here when everybody was claiming he was an all time great in the making and nobody could see how overated he was, well I called it then and I'm calling it now.

Donaire has done nothing to deserve top 10 status let alone top 7.

In a year after he gets sparked by Fernano Montiel or somebody similar he will be another forgotten man.

Williams, Guzman, Kessler, Pavlik, Abraham, Haye, Dawson all have a case for inclusion above him.

another great post from our underrated veteran.

I'm not sure Lopez has done as much and he may be my favorite fighter.

Not sure about Haye either. Unified sounds great but has he beaten that much better fighters than Donaire? Not sure and I don't think he's as good a fighter.

Dawson, yes, and probably Williams too.

- Knocking out the feared multi-division, multi-titled Vic Darchinyan to a chicken dance inside 5 rounds is the main reason I think...

- Then knocking out 3 top contenders (with 2 undefeated) in Maldonado, Mthalane and Raul "Cobra" Martinez...

- He is highly avoided that's why he's having difficulties making fights...

- His last 5 fights were all stoppages ...

- Has not lost a fight in 8 years and on a 19 fights winning streak...

That's impressive to me aside from him being considered as the total package, an excellent combination of boxing skills, speed, power and solid chin... He boxes very good, very smart and ends fights with a KO...
.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I'm not sure Lopez has done as much and he may be my favorite fighter.

Not sure about Haye either. Unified sounds great but has he beaten that much better fighters than Donaire? Not sure and I don't think he's as good a fighter.

Dawson, yes, and probably Williams too.

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Who has Donaire beaten though aside from Vic?

He's never fought a single other opponent who has ever won a world title so his opposition Darchinyan aside is clearly inferior to everybody else probably in the top 20 p4p as everybody else has at least fought and beat former champs as well as one or two current champs.

And Darchinyan has done most of the great things in his career after the Donaire loss, so Donaire didn't defeat a Mijares, Arce two division world champ.

Juan Manuel Lopez destroyed Ponce De Leon and battered Penalosa which is probably already on a par with Donaire, and I wouldn't put Lopez in the top 15 yet.

He's a very good fighter, but he should not be ranked above Williams, Dawson, Cotto, or Caballero IMO.

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

- Knocking out the feared multi-division, multi-titled Vic Darchinyan to a chicken dance inside 5 rounds is the main reason I think...

- Then knocking out 3 top contenders (with 2 undefeated) in Maldonado, Mthalane and Raul "Cobra" Martinez...

- He is highly avoided that's why he's having difficulties making fights...

- His last 5 fights were all stoppages ...

- Has not lost a fight in 8 years and on a 19 fights winning streak...

That's impressive to me aside from him being considered as the total package, an excellent combination of boxing skills, speed, power and solid chin... He boxes very good, very smart and ends fights with a KO...
.

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This is exactly my point Xadu, Darchinyan WASN'T a multi weight world champ when he fough Donaire. His most impressive wins against Mijares and Arce came after that loss, so why is Donaire getting credit for them.

The fact is, and its undisputable imo if Mijares or Arce would have spanked Darchinyan then Donaire would not be in the top 10 let alone 7th as he would only have beaten a decent but not special belt holder in Vic Darchinyan.

His own acomplishments arn't what have got him into the p4p he's just rode in on the back of Darchinyans coat tails.

It's always interesting to me too that in the little divisions beating an undefeated (usually a part timer with barely 10 fights) is seen as a great thing, whereas in the higher divisions where we actually know who these contenders are a win over an undefeated can mean virtually nothing as we just dismiss them.

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Originally Posted by CFH

He's a very good fighter, but he should not be ranked above Williams, Dawson, Cotto, or Caballero IMO.

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Glad you agree Josh. I have wanted to rep you for ages but I have to spread to everyone else first and frankly I don't want to rep anybody else.

I wish Saddo would put the old 24 or maybe even a 48 hour system in place rather than having to spread it.

It just means I have to spread rep about 8 meaningless times to give some to you.

There are no rep clubs any more so why the spread rule? Just bring back the delayed timer and set at 48 hours before rerepping Saddo, you know it makes sense bossman :)

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by CFH

He's a very good fighter, but he should not be ranked above Williams, Dawson, Cotto, or Caballero IMO.

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Glad you agree Josh. I have wanted to rep you for ages but I have to spread to everyone else first and frankly I don't want to rep anybody else.

I wish Saddo would put the old 24 or maybe even a 48 hour system in place rather than having to spread it.

It just means I have to spread rep about 8 meaningless times to give some to you.

There are no rep clubs any more so why the spread rule? Just bring back the delayed timer and set at 48 hours before rerepping Saddo, you know it makes sense bossman :)

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We agree on that as well. I do not like having to rep a bunch of people for no other reason that to rep the person I want to.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I'm not sure Lopez has done as much and he may be my favorite fighter.

Not sure about Haye either. Unified sounds great but has he beaten that much better fighters than Donaire? Not sure and I don't think he's as good a fighter.

Dawson, yes, and probably Williams too.

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Who has Donaire beaten though aside from Vic?

He's never fought a single other opponent who has ever won a world title so his opposition Darchinyan aside is clearly inferior to everybody else probably in the top 20 p4p as everybody else has at least fought and beat former champs as well as one or two current champs.

And Darchinyan has done most of the great things in his career after the Donaire loss, so Donaire didn't defeat a Mijares, Arce two division world champ.

Juan Manuel Lopez destroyed Ponce De Leon and battered Penalosa which is probably already on a par with Donaire, and I wouldn't put Lopez in the top 15 yet.

You didn't mention Dawson and Williams so I'm presuming you agree they should be above him?

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Beating Ponce and Penalosa isn't equivalent to beating Vic though. And outside of those two JML has nothing on his resume, Donaire's is better.

Well I did mention Dawson and Williams ;D I would probably rank Dawson and Williams above, maybe, but its not by much. Donaire has the best win of anybody being discussed here IMO. Dawson and Williams maybe have a better overall body of work. At least Dawson.

Of course P4P is not just about accomplishments, its subjective too but generally I think all four guys have top ten P4P talent.

A bit off the point but I have to disagree with CFH on Caballero. Not the other guys though.

Good post Xadu. I was gonna say similar thing. Donaire happens to be one of the most avoided boxer in the world. If you followed his career you will know that Mijares, Montiel, and top Japanese boxers avoided him.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

- Knocking out the feared multi-division, multi-titled Vic Darchinyan to a chicken dance inside 5 rounds is the main reason I think...

- Then knocking out 3 top contenders (with 2 undefeated) in Maldonado, Mthalane and Raul "Cobra" Martinez...

- He is highly avoided that's why he's having difficulties making fights...

- His last 5 fights were all stoppages ...

- Has not lost a fight in 8 years and on a 19 fights winning streak...

That's impressive to me aside from him being considered as the total package, an excellent combination of boxing skills, speed, power and solid chin... He boxes very good, very smart and ends fights with a KO...
.

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This is exactly my point Xadu, Darchinyan WASN'T a multi weight world champ when he fough Donaire. His most impressive wins against Mijares and Arce came after that loss, so why is Donaire getting credit for them.

The fact is, and its undisputable imo if Mijares or Arce would have spanked Darchinyan then Donaire would not be in the top 10 let alone 7th as he would only have beaten a decent but not special belt holder in Vic Darchinyan.

His own acomplishments arn't what have got him into the p4p he's just rode in on the back of Darchinyans coat tails.

It's always interesting to me too that in the little divisions beating an undefeated (usually a part timer with barely 10 fights) is seen as a great thing, whereas in the higher divisions where we actually know who these contenders are a win over an undefeated can mean virtually nothing as we just dismiss them.

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Good point I have had this conversation in other forms with a certain other small fighter (Vasquez) that is still ranked way to high in the p4p rankings.

Doesn't a fighters accomplishments after two guys fought influence the winner's resume?

Doesn't the Glen Johnson win look bigger for Hopkins now than five years ago? Zab Judah was at one time a real big win for Tsyzu, is it now?

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Originally Posted by CFH

He's a very good fighter, but he should not be ranked above Williams, Dawson, Cotto, or Caballero IMO.

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Agreed!

I don't think Donaire should be in the top 10 P4P but he's definitely a talented fighter. IMO he hasn't done enough in his career to get such a prestigious ranking. He beat one name, a good name though, but it's not enough to get that high. He has the talent to have that ranking but you need to prove it to actually have it.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I'm not sure Lopez has done as much and he may be my favorite fighter.

Not sure about Haye either. Unified sounds great but has he beaten that much better fighters than Donaire? Not sure and I don't think he's as good a fighter.

Dawson, yes, and probably Williams too.

---

Who has Donaire beaten though aside from Vic?

He's never fought a single other opponent who has ever won a world title so his opposition Darchinyan aside is clearly inferior to everybody else probably in the top 20 p4p as everybody else has at least fought and beat former champs as well as one or two current champs.

And Darchinyan has done most of the great things in his career after the Donaire loss, so Donaire didn't defeat a Mijares, Arce two division world champ.

Juan Manuel Lopez destroyed Ponce De Leon and battered Penalosa which is probably already on a par with Donaire, and I wouldn't put Lopez in the top 15 yet.

You didn't mention Dawson and Williams so I'm presuming you agree they should be above him?

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Beating Ponce and Penalosa isn't equivalent to beating Vic though. And outside of those two JML has nothing on his resume, Donaire's is better.

Well I did mention Dawson and Williams ;D I would probably rank Dawson and Williams above, maybe, but its not by much. Donaire has the best win of anybody being discussed here IMO. Dawson and Williams maybe have a better overall body of work. At least Dawson.

Of course P4P is not just about accomplishments, its subjective too but generally I think all four guys have top ten P4P talent.

A bit off the point but I have to disagree with CFH on Caballero. Not the other guys though.

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I wasn't sure whether or not to include him, but he's a unified champion in a very good division. He's dominated and knocked out another undefeated belt holder (in his opponents hometown) and holds wins over Parra, Sithchat-whatever, and De Leon. IMO that's close to what Donaire has accomplished.

Yes its close. I would take Donaire. Again partly because subjective stuff plays some part in my P4P, I just think Donaire's a better fighter. Considering they both have good resumes but not great ones I would rank Donaire higher.

Does anybody solely do P4P on resume? I know its the main part but still.

Not to say I even do P4P.

I'm sure somebody will bring up Winky with Paul. I'm not sure how great that win is under the circumstances. Tarver's a bit iffy too. They're good, not great IMO.

Williams, Guzman, Kessler, Pavlik, Abraham, Haye, Dawson all have a case for inclusion above him.

Only Williams is above him IMO , a case for Dawson could be made

I would say Dawson has the best case.

Adamek, Johnson, Tarver X2

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I'm not sure Lopez has done as much and he may be my favorite fighter.

Not sure about Haye either. Unified sounds great but has he beaten that much better fighters than Donaire? Not sure and I don't think he's as good a fighter.

Dawson, yes, and probably Williams too.

---

Who has Donaire beaten though aside from Vic?

He's never fought a single other opponent who has ever won a world title so his opposition Darchinyan aside is clearly inferior to everybody else probably in the top 20 p4p as everybody else has at least fought and beat former champs as well as one or two current champs.

And Darchinyan has done most of the great things in his career after the Donaire loss, so Donaire didn't defeat a Mijares, Arce two division world champ.

Juan Manuel Lopez destroyed Ponce De Leon and battered Penalosa which is probably already on a par with Donaire, and I wouldn't put Lopez in the top 15 yet.

You didn't mention Dawson and Williams so I'm presuming you agree they should be above him?

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Beating Ponce and Penalosa isn't equivalent to beating Vic though. And outside of those two JML has nothing on his resume, Donaire's is better.

Well I did mention Dawson and Williams ;D I would probably rank Dawson and Williams above, maybe, but its not by much. Donaire has the best win of anybody being discussed here IMO. Dawson and Williams maybe have a better overall body of work. At least Dawson.

Of course P4P is not just about accomplishments, its subjective too but generally I think all four guys have top ten P4P talent.

A bit off the point but I have to disagree with CFH on Caballero. Not the other guys though.

---

How is Donaire's much better? Who (vic aside) has Donaire beaten that was better than Ponce De Leon and Penalosa?

Remember Darchinyan became a two weight world champ and defeated Mijares and Arce AFTER the Donaire fight, so you can't give Donaire the credit of beating a superflyweight multi divisional conquerorer because he hasn't beaten one at all.

What about his the rest of his opposition? He's beaten nobody of note whatsoever. Since fighting Vic he's beaten Maldonado who Vic ko'd in 8 and Montiel in 3. He's fought some unknown South African who nobody had heard of in Mthlane and then fought again a complete unknown in Rual Martinez.

Yes Martinez was unbeaten but so what, Dimitri Sartisan was unbeaten when Kessler fought him last time out as was Koji Sato who Felix Sturm beat last time, why not put Sturm in the top 10 p4p for acomplishing such a great feat?

His resume has a single name on it, and the acomplishments of that opponent were made largely after that fight.

Putting Donaire at 7th is more erroneous than putting Mijares in there last year.

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Originally Posted by gest12645

Williams, Guzman, Kessler, Pavlik, Abraham, Haye, Dawson all have a case for inclusion above him.

Only Williams is above him IMO , a case for Dawson could be made

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Skill-wise? Absolutely. But Guzman doesn't really have the resume to warrant inclusion. I that reflects the extremely subjective and murky nature of P4P lists in that the criteria are not at all clear.

I don't agree with Abraham either, but again these lists are so subjective.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Who has Donaire beaten though aside from Vic?

He's never fought a single other opponent who has ever won a world title so his opposition Darchinyan aside is clearly inferior to everybody else probably in the top 20 p4p as everybody else has at least fought and beat former champs as well as one or two current champs.

And Darchinyan has done most of the great things in his career after the Donaire loss, so Donaire didn't defeat a Mijares, Arce two division world champ.

Juan Manuel Lopez destroyed Ponce De Leon and battered Penalosa which is probably already on a par with Donaire, and I wouldn't put Lopez in the top 15 yet.

You didn't mention Dawson and Williams so I'm presuming you agree they should be above him?

---

Beating Ponce and Penalosa isn't equivalent to beating Vic though. And outside of those two JML has nothing on his resume, Donaire's is better.

Well I did mention Dawson and Williams ;D I would probably rank Dawson and Williams above, maybe, but its not by much. Donaire has the best win of anybody being discussed here IMO. Dawson and Williams maybe have a better overall body of work. At least Dawson.

Of course P4P is not just about accomplishments, its subjective too but generally I think all four guys have top ten P4P talent.

A bit off the point but I have to disagree with CFH on Caballero. Not the other guys though.

---

How is Donaire's much better? Who (vic aside) has Donaire beaten that was better than Ponce De Leon and Penalosa?

Remember Darchinyan became a two weight world champ and defeated Mijares and Arce AFTER the Donaire fight, so you can't give Donaire the credit of beating a superflyweight multi divisional conquerorer because he hasn't beaten one at all.

What about his the rest of his opposition? He's beaten nobody of note whatsoever. Since fighting Vic he's beaten Maldonado who Vic ko'd in 8 and Montiel in 3. He's fought some unknown South African who nobody had heard of in Mthlane and then fought again a complete unknown in Rual Martinez.

Yes Martinez was unbeaten but so what, Dimitri Sartisan was unbeaten when Kessler fought him last time out as was Koji Sato who Felix Sturm beat last time, why not put Sturm in the top 10 p4p for acomplishing such a great feat?

His resume has a single name on it, and the acomplishments of that opponent were made largely after that fight.

Putting Donaire at 7th is more erroneous than putting Mijares in there last year.

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You're not listening to me ;D I said I think a Darchinyan win is better than wins over Ponce and Penalosa. And aside from those three guys Donaire's wins are better than JML's. Believe me if I could make a case for him I would, he's a future monster IMO.

I've already said that I think you can't just ignore Darchinyan's accomplishments after Donaire when rating how good that win was. Has he improved since? Looks like it, but its hard to measure and I don't think you can make some claim that he's a totally different fighter, improved probably but not a totally different guy. Vic's wins since just validate the importance of the win for Donaire even more.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

- Knocking out the feared multi-division, multi-titled Vic Darchinyan to a chicken dance inside 5 rounds is the main reason I think...

- Then knocking out 3 top contenders (with 2 undefeated) in Maldonado, Mthalane and Raul "Cobra" Martinez...

- He is highly avoided that's why he's having difficulties making fights...

- His last 5 fights were all stoppages ...

- Has not lost a fight in 8 years and on a 19 fights winning streak...

That's impressive to me aside from him being considered as the total package, an excellent combination of boxing skills, speed, power and solid chin... He boxes very good, very smart and ends fights with a KO...
.

---

This is exactly my point Xadu, Darchinyan WASN'T a multi weight world champ when he fough Donaire. His most impressive wins against Mijares and Arce came after that loss, so why is Donaire getting credit for them.

The fact is, and its undisputable imo if Mijares or Arce would have spanked Darchinyan then Donaire would not be in the top 10 let alone 7th as he would only have beaten a decent but not special belt holder in Vic Darchinyan.

His own acomplishments arn't what have got him into the p4p he's just rode in on the back of Darchinyans coat tails.

It's always interesting to me too that in the little divisions beating an undefeated (usually a part timer with barely 10 fights) is seen as a great thing, whereas in the higher divisions where we actually know who these contenders are a win over an undefeated can mean virtually nothing as we just dismiss them.

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I clearly understood your point My Master, My Lord...;) And my point is Nonito's win over Darchinyan is so HUGE that the only things to get around that are; Darchinyan avenging his KO loss to Donaire or Donaire losing to another boxer... It doesn't happen yet so if you highly ranked Darchinyan, Donaire will always be higher than him unless those things I've mentioned above does happens...

To demonstrate how HUGE that win is, I'm confident if Donaire will fight Mijares, Arce, Kirilov and you can add Montiel and Darchinyan himself, Donaire will be the favorite to win in each of this match-ups... That's how people at The Ring highly regard Donaire... Only that Donaire was avoided and he didn't got the chance to fight these boxers...
.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Beating Ponce and Penalosa isn't equivalent to beating Vic though. And outside of those two JML has nothing on his resume, Donaire's is better.

Well I did mention Dawson and Williams ;D I would probably rank Dawson and Williams above, maybe, but its not by much. Donaire has the best win of anybody being discussed here IMO. Dawson and Williams maybe have a better overall body of work. At least Dawson.

Of course P4P is not just about accomplishments, its subjective too but generally I think all four guys have top ten P4P talent.

A bit off the point but I have to disagree with CFH on Caballero. Not the other guys though.

---

How is Donaire's much better? Who (vic aside) has Donaire beaten that was better than Ponce De Leon and Penalosa?

Remember Darchinyan became a two weight world champ and defeated Mijares and Arce AFTER the Donaire fight, so you can't give Donaire the credit of beating a superflyweight multi divisional conquerorer because he hasn't beaten one at all.

What about his the rest of his opposition? He's beaten nobody of note whatsoever. Since fighting Vic he's beaten Maldonado who Vic ko'd in 8 and Montiel in 3. He's fought some unknown South African who nobody had heard of in Mthlane and then fought again a complete unknown in Rual Martinez.

Yes Martinez was unbeaten but so what, Dimitri Sartisan was unbeaten when Kessler fought him last time out as was Koji Sato who Felix Sturm beat last time, why not put Sturm in the top 10 p4p for acomplishing such a great feat?

His resume has a single name on it, and the acomplishments of that opponent were made largely after that fight.

Putting Donaire at 7th is more erroneous than putting Mijares in there last year.

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You're not listening to me ;D I said I think a Darchinyan win is better than wins over Ponce and Penalosa. And aside from those three guys Donaire's wins are better than JML's. Believe me if I could make a case for him I would, he's a future monster IMO.

I've already said that I think you can't just ignore Darchinyan's accomplishments after Donaire when rating how good that win was. Has he improved since? Looks like it, but its hard to measure and I don't think you can make some claim that he's a totally different fighter, improved probably but not a totally different guy. Vic's wins since just validate the importance of the win for Donaire even more.

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Look at Donaires record on boxrec his three fights prior to the Darchinan fight were 5-9, 35-27-1 and 5-6-1, his resume Darchinyan aside is totally mediocre.

Of his opponents since Darchinyan, only one had ever fought for a world title and he got knocked out.

Apart from Vic he's fought nobody let alone beaten anybody.

Chad Dawson has beaten Thomas Adamek, two time and reigning cruiserweight champ, Tarver Twice, former undisputed light heavyyweight champ, former p4p star, Johnson, another former undisputed champ and former p4p star.

Williams has won 3 world titles in two weight classes and holds a win over former top 3 p4p star Winky Wright.

Juan Guzman holds world titles at two different weights and has beaten four former or current champions.

Donaire's resume is totally mediocre aside from the Vic win, and Vic's best achievments were after the Donaire loss.

It just grates me :-\

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

- Knocking out the feared multi-division, multi-titled Vic Darchinyan to a chicken dance inside 5 rounds is the main reason I think...

- Then knocking out 3 top contenders (with 2 undefeated) in Maldonado, Mthalane and Raul "Cobra" Martinez...

- He is highly avoided that's why he's having difficulties making fights...

- His last 5 fights were all stoppages ...

- Has not lost a fight in 8 years and on a 19 fights winning streak...

That's impressive to me aside from him being considered as the total package, an excellent combination of boxing skills, speed, power and solid chin... He boxes very good, very smart and ends fights with a KO...
.

---

This is exactly my point Xadu, Darchinyan WASN'T a multi weight world champ when he fough Donaire. His most impressive wins against Mijares and Arce came after that loss, so why is Donaire getting credit for them.

The fact is, and its undisputable imo if Mijares or Arce would have spanked Darchinyan then Donaire would not be in the top 10 let alone 7th as he would only have beaten a decent but not special belt holder in Vic Darchinyan.

His own acomplishments arn't what have got him into the p4p he's just rode in on the back of Darchinyans coat tails.

It's always interesting to me too that in the little divisions beating an undefeated (usually a part timer with barely 10 fights) is seen as a great thing, whereas in the higher divisions where we actually know who these contenders are a win over an undefeated can mean virtually nothing as we just dismiss them.

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I clearly understood your point My Master, My Lord...;) And my point is Nonito's win over Darchinyan is so HUGE that the only things to get around that are; Darchinyan avenging his KO loss to Donaire or Donaire losing to another boxer... It doesn't happen yet so if you highly ranked Darchinyan, Donaire will always be higher than him unless those things I've mentioned above does happens...

To demonstrate how HUGE that win is, I'm confident if Donaire will fight Mijares, Arce, Kirilov and you can add Montiel and Darchinyan himself, Donaire will be the favorite to win in each of this match-ups... That's how people at The Ring highly regard Donaire... Only that Donaire was avoided and he didn't got the chance to fight these boxers...
.

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Yep but imo they have all been vastly overratted to start with

Mijares was NEVER p4p. I shouted and moaned about it and told everyone he was overratted but people like ICB went on to say he would rule the flyweight scene for years to come, he was brilliant etc. He wasn't and never was. He beat Arce who is basically the flyweight Arturo Gatti and that's it.

Kirilov isn't anywhere near p4p, neither is Arce. Montiel has done more than Donaire imo and I wouldnt have him p4p either.

I think P. Williams, Chad Dawson, Berto all derseve mention in the top 10 p4p, but so does Donaire, its not all about competition, he is a super great fighter, why weren't people questioning why crap like Margarito, Cabellero, or Mijares or even Vic are up there. Darchaniyan is a joke as is Caballero and Mijares yet they were all placed near the top.

Last but not least you have to actually look at how good the guy is, competition isn't everything like I said, sometimes a better fighter doesn't have better competition.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

This is exactly my point Xadu, Darchinyan WASN'T a multi weight world champ when he fough Donaire. His most impressive wins against Mijares and Arce came after that loss, so why is Donaire getting credit for them.

The fact is, and its undisputable imo if Mijares or Arce would have spanked Darchinyan then Donaire would not be in the top 10 let alone 7th as he would only have beaten a decent but not special belt holder in Vic Darchinyan.

His own acomplishments arn't what have got him into the p4p he's just rode in on the back of Darchinyans coat tails.

It's always interesting to me too that in the little divisions beating an undefeated (usually a part timer with barely 10 fights) is seen as a great thing, whereas in the higher divisions where we actually know who these contenders are a win over an undefeated can mean virtually nothing as we just dismiss them.

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I clearly understood your point My Master, My Lord...;) And my point is Nonito's win over Darchinyan is so HUGE that the only things to get around that are; Darchinyan avenging his KO loss to Donaire or Donaire losing to another boxer... It doesn't happen yet so if you highly ranked Darchinyan, Donaire will always be higher than him unless those things I've mentioned above does happens...

To demonstrate how HUGE that win is, I'm confident if Donaire will fight Mijares, Arce, Kirilov and you can add Montiel and Darchinyan himself, Donaire will be the favorite to win in each of this match-ups... That's how people at The Ring highly regard Donaire... Only that Donaire was avoided and he didn't got the chance to fight these boxers...
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Yep but imo they have all been vastly overratted to start with

Mijares was NEVER p4p. I shouted and moaned about it and told everyone he was overratted but people like ICB went on to say he would rule the flyweight scene for years to come, he was brilliant etc. He wasn't and never was. He beat Arce who is basically the flyweight Arturo Gatti and that's it.

Kirilov isn't anywhere near p4p, neither is Arce. Montiel has done more than Donaire imo and I wouldnt have him p4p either.

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That's it... If you accept that Donaire will be the favorite over Darchinyan (rematch), Mijares, Arce, Kirilov and even Montiel then I think you also believe that Donaire will defeat these guys just like what Darchinyan did...

I know there's a big difference being considered a favorite than what's the actual fight outcome coz sometimes upsets do happened but having Donaire as the favorite to defeat these guys means a very big thing...
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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

This is exactly my point Xadu, Darchinyan WASN'T a multi weight world champ when he fough Donaire. His most impressive wins against Mijares and Arce came after that loss, so why is Donaire getting credit for them.

The fact is, and its undisputable imo if Mijares or Arce would have spanked Darchinyan then Donaire would not be in the top 10 let alone 7th as he would only have beaten a decent but not special belt holder in Vic Darchinyan.

His own acomplishments arn't what have got him into the p4p he's just rode in on the back of Darchinyans coat tails.

It's always interesting to me too that in the little divisions beating an undefeated (usually a part timer with barely 10 fights) is seen as a great thing, whereas in the higher divisions where we actually know who these contenders are a win over an undefeated can mean virtually nothing as we just dismiss them.

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I clearly understood your point My Master, My Lord...;) And my point is Nonito's win over Darchinyan is so HUGE that the only things to get around that are; Darchinyan avenging his KO loss to Donaire or Donaire losing to another boxer... It doesn't happen yet so if you highly ranked Darchinyan, Donaire will always be higher than him unless those things I've mentioned above does happens...

To demonstrate how HUGE that win is, I'm confident if Donaire will fight Mijares, Arce, Kirilov and you can add Montiel and Darchinyan himself, Donaire will be the favorite to win in each of this match-ups... That's how people at The Ring highly regard Donaire... Only that Donaire was avoided and he didn't got the chance to fight these boxers...
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Yep but imo they have all been vastly overratted to start with

Mijares was NEVER p4p. I shouted and moaned about it and told everyone he was overratted but people like ICB went on to say he would rule the flyweight scene for years to come, he was brilliant etc. He wasn't and never was. He beat Arce who is basically the flyweight Arturo Gatti and that's it.

Kirilov isn't anywhere near p4p, neither is Arce. Montiel has done more than Donaire imo and I wouldnt have him p4p either.

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I still think Christian Mijares is a very good fighter, people sometimes get it wrong you have been wrong in the past aswell. I just think Vic Darchinyan's messy unorthodox boxing.

Spoiled Christian Mijares good technical boxing skills. And now he is ruined fighter IMO.

As for your thread i don't think David Haye is anywhere close to the top 10, who has he beaten ? Jean Marc Mormeck is a good fighter. But he isn't nothing special by any means.

And Enzo Maccarinelli is a mediocre fighter with a big punch at best, there his two best wins hardly anything really worth mentioning.

I agree with Paul Williams he's beat Carlos Quintana, Verno Phillips, Winky Wright. Who are all very good names and he's beaten those fighters at 3 different weightclasses, which is even more impressive.

Juan Manuel Lopez deserves a mention he dominated Gerry Penelosa, who had never been stopped in 62 fights. And had never been beaten convincingly.

And despite people calling Daniel Ponce De Leon one dimensional, rubbish, ETC. He was still a very high rated fighter who had never been stopped. I mean Juan Manuel Lopez stopped him in just over 2 minutes for crying out loud.

Chad Dawson also has an impressive resume Tomasz Adamek, Glen Johnson, Antonio Tarver x2, Eric Harding.

I think Paul Williams, Chad Dawson, Juan Manuel Lopez, could all possibly make the top 10. I have no idea why not even one of them is in the top 10 P4P.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

How is Donaire's much better? Who (vic aside) has Donaire beaten that was better than Ponce De Leon and Penalosa?

Remember Darchinyan became a two weight world champ and defeated Mijares and Arce AFTER the Donaire fight, so you can't give Donaire the credit of beating a superflyweight multi divisional conquerorer because he hasn't beaten one at all.

What about his the rest of his opposition? He's beaten nobody of note whatsoever. Since fighting Vic he's beaten Maldonado who Vic ko'd in 8 and Montiel in 3. He's fought some unknown South African who nobody had heard of in Mthlane and then fought again a complete unknown in Rual Martinez.

Yes Martinez was unbeaten but so what, Dimitri Sartisan was unbeaten when Kessler fought him last time out as was Koji Sato who Felix Sturm beat last time, why not put Sturm in the top 10 p4p for acomplishing such a great feat?

His resume has a single name on it, and the acomplishments of that opponent were made largely after that fight.

Putting Donaire at 7th is more erroneous than putting Mijares in there last year.

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You're not listening to me ;D I said I think a Darchinyan win is better than wins over Ponce and Penalosa. And aside from those three guys Donaire's wins are better than JML's. Believe me if I could make a case for him I would, he's a future monster IMO.

I've already said that I think you can't just ignore Darchinyan's accomplishments after Donaire when rating how good that win was. Has he improved since? Looks like it, but its hard to measure and I don't think you can make some claim that he's a totally different fighter, improved probably but not a totally different guy. Vic's wins since just validate the importance of the win for Donaire even more.

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Look at Donaires record on boxrec his three fights prior to the Darchinan fight were 5-9, 35-27-1 and 5-6-1, his resume Darchinyan aside is totally mediocre.

Of his opponents since Darchinyan, only one had ever fought for a world title and he got knocked out.

Apart from Vic he's fought nobody let alone beaten anybody.

Chad Dawson has beaten Thomas Adamek, two time and reigning cruiserweight champ, Tarver Twice, former undisputed light heavyyweight champ, former p4p star, Johnson, another former undisputed champ and former p4p star.

Williams has won 3 world titles in two weight classes and holds a win over former top 3 p4p star Winky Wright.

Juan Guzman holds world titles at two different weights and has beaten four former or current champions.

Donaire's resume is totally mediocre aside from the Vic win, and Vic's best achievments were after the Donaire loss.

It just grates me :-\

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Its still better than JML's though IMO. JML really has nobody besides Ponce and Penalosa. And I never really rated Ponce, I picked Juanma over him even though I wasn't so sure how good he was.

I agree on Dawson although people can overrate the Tarver wins IMO, same with Paul with Winky, they can be former this and that but there are circumstances there, namely age and in Winky's case age and ridiculous inactivity.

I used to have Guzman P4P but he has to work his way back up now. Actually that's a bit off as I haven't made a P4P list in forever but I considered him to be around that level.

I don't get too much into being unified or multiple weight class championships, its just the wins. I know me saying that has you jumping for the keyboard as you will just say Donaire doesn't have the resume anyway. Maybe so but its above a few guys you mentioned and not that far behind Williams. Dawson is the clear leader here.

Of course Adamek was weight drained, Tarver was old as balls and he lost to Johnson ;D I kid (well kind of), his is the best.

And you can in no way convince me that Darchinyan's wins since don't help cement Donaire's status. If I replaced the name Darchinyan with Hopkins and Donaire with Roy Jones surely you would agree right? Otherwise Jones just a beat a young middleweight titlist who had to go to war with Segundo Mercado to win that title.

Anyway this is a good thread, a lot of the main board has bored me to tears lately.

Master Bilbo has a very valid question here for some (like Dawson, Williams) but not all of the boxers he cited that "should" be above Donaire...

I think Donaire deserves his #7 spot... The thing is, we only have 10 slots available for the Top Ten P4P List (why there's no tie to accomodate more boxers ;) )... These boxers in the top 5 to 15 do have very close accomplishments and resume and ranking them does take very tedious process... Then you can add up subjectivity and you get a total headache...

Off-topic: Is there anyone here questioning why Israel Vazquez still having his #5 P4P slot even with more than 1 year of inactivity?? :confused:
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I would be surprised if either Vazquez or Marquez look like top five P4P guys from here on out. They're both getting a bit up there (especially in "ring years" if you will as far as how much punishment they've taken) and I think they're best days are past. But we'll see. As far as the inactivity, I don't know, I guess you have to be consistent about that, one year doesn't sound like too much for a guy who was an established P4P guy. Its starting to push it though.

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

Master Bilbo has a very valid question here for some (like Dawson, Williams) but not all of the boxers he cited that "should" be above Donaire...

I think Donaire deserves his #7 spot... The thing is, we only have 10 slots available for the Top Ten P4P List (why there's no tie to accomodate more boxers ;) )... These boxers in the top 5 to 15 do have very close accomplishments and resume and ranking them does take very tedious process... Then you can add up subjectivity and you get a total headache...

Off-topic: Is there anyone here questioning why Israel Vazquez still having his #5 P4P slot even with more than 1 year of inactivity?? :confused:
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I think we just ran off some lurker/potential new member types.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

Master Bilbo has a very valid question here for some (like Dawson, Williams) but not all of the boxers he cited that "should" be above Donaire...

I think Donaire deserves his #7 spot... The thing is, we only have 10 slots available for the Top Ten P4P List (why there's no tie to accomodate more boxers ;) )... These boxers in the top 5 to 15 do have very close accomplishments and resume and ranking them does take very tedious process... Then you can add up subjectivity and you get a total headache...

Off-topic: Is there anyone here questioning why Israel Vazquez still having his #5 P4P slot even with more than 1 year of inactivity?? :confused:
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I think we just ran off some lurker/potential new member types.

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Ha ha ;D That's how I addressed my friend Mr. Bilbo, I mean Master Bilbo ever since... He doesn't comment about it tho... He likes it very much I guess... My Master, My Lord... ;D great sounding...
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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

Master Bilbo has a very valid question here for some (like Dawson, Williams) but not all of the boxers he cited that "should" be above Donaire...

I think Donaire deserves his #7 spot... The thing is, we only have 10 slots available for the Top Ten P4P List (why there's no tie to accomodate more boxers ;) )... These boxers in the top 5 to 15 do have very close accomplishments and resume and ranking them does take very tedious process... Then you can add up subjectivity and you get a total headache...

Off-topic: Is there anyone here questioning why Israel Vazquez still having his #5 P4P slot even with more than 1 year of inactivity?? :confused:
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I think we just ran off some lurker/potential new member types.

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haha I pissed myself when I read that :D

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by XaduBoxer

Master Bilbo has a very valid question here for some (like Dawson, Williams) but not all of the boxers he cited that "should" be above Donaire...

I think Donaire deserves his #7 spot... The thing is, we only have 10 slots available for the Top Ten P4P List (why there's no tie to accomodate more boxers ;) )... These boxers in the top 5 to 15 do have very close accomplishments and resume and ranking them does take very tedious process... Then you can add up subjectivity and you get a total headache...

Off-topic: Is there anyone here questioning why Israel Vazquez still having his #5 P4P slot even with more than 1 year of inactivity?? :confused:
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I think we just ran off some lurker/potential new member types.

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Ha ha ;D That's how I addressed my friend Mr. Bilbo, I mean Master Bilbo ever since... He doesn't comment about it tho... He likes it very much I guess... My Master, My Lord... ;D great sounding...
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oh, ok, that explains it.

I'm sure Bilbo does like it very much.

im one of the only guys on saddos that is naive enough to believe those below 5`5 are better fighters just because they can throw more punches and produce the better fights.

Vitali Klitschko shits all over the likes of calderon, vasquez, donaire yet you never see him in the rankings because they are complete byest for the littler guys and have been for the last 10 years now.

Donaire is 5'6". Some believe he's actually 5'8". Lol! He's opponents looks like dwarf everytime he's fighting.

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

im one of the only guys on saddos that is naive enough to believe those below 5`5 are better fighters just because they can throw more punches and produce the better fights.

Vitali Klitschko shits all over the likes of calderon, vasquez, donaire yet you never see him in the rankings because they are complete byest for the littler guys and have been for the last 10 years now.

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I don't mean to argue semantics but that might make them more exciting fighters, not better ones. Excitement should play no role in selecting a P4P list in my mind.

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Originally Posted by Quinito

Donaire is 5'6". Some believe he's actually 5'8". Lol! He's opponents looks like dwarf everytime he's fighting.

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How is that relevant to this discussion?

Even though he lost Id rate Vic higher just as Id rate Mosley over Cotto even though Cotto beat him. Its about recent form. If not Torrencampo would still be above Pac

CHF. I was just replying on a portion of hattonhammer's post. My blackberry wont make 'qoute and reply'.