Printable View
First off I believe Pac-man should face Cotto at 147, like he did Oscar. However the rumours seem to be pointing at a 145 pound mark. Cotto in his last fight came in at 146, his lowest ever (rest dead on 147 or 146.5). Should removing this single pound take away the Pac-mans win or just be a footnote. Obviously it will depend on Cotto's performance but what do you think now?
Any fighter should get credit for beating another fighter 5+ pounds heavier than him at fight night.
Chagaev must have recived major props then for beating ValuevQuote:
Originally Posted by ASIAN SENSATION
Of course he should!
Cotto weighed in at 146 lb EVEN against Clottey. Here watch the video of the weigh in here. He weighed 146.0 lbs
So you think if he has to lose a single freaking pound it means he's drained and done and is just a shell? :vd:
This is really so simply to understand.....Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEChagaev must have recived major props then for beating ValuevQuote:
Originally Posted by ASIAN SENSATION
If two fighters are of equal ability but one is bigger than because all other factors are even the bigger guy will win.
However if one fighter is vastly better than the other fighter but the other fighter is bigger then the smaller but better fighter will still likely win because he better everywhere else.
It's a simple equation.
Manny beating Cotto is a much much much bigger deal than Chagaev beating Valuev because Valuev is inferior in every single regard to Cotto other than size.
Manny would be beating a bigger and also elite fighter.
Chagaev beat a bigger but mediocre fighter.
How is that hard to understand?
Agree with Bilbo. Manny should get full credit for beating Cotto at 145.
i grasped the catchweight idea from the very first time bilbo explained it.
wrong board this should be at the pac thread or is the pac thread made for spam only? no really?
Everything to do with Pac should be on that other forum theyve had to make on here to keep the idiots away from discusiing boxing with real boxing fans
No, he should not recieve full credit. Now if he was to fight Cotto at 147 with none of these phoney strings attached I would give him full credit for the win. Manny is looking for big money fights whilst trying to avoid risk by bringing WW's down from their optimum fighting weights. There are no more big money fights at 140 for him so he is trying on this tactic.
I refuse to give him much credit for that kind of carry on.
Miles you are simply wrong mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Had Oscar beaten Hopkins you wouldn't have credited him with that win?
As he lost, does that mean he's fucking useless as Hopkins must surely have been weight drained at 158 lbs and Oscar still got knocked out?
What about Hopkins win over Tarver? Tarver had just dropped down from heavyweight, Hopkins just beat a shell?
What about Pavlik losing to Hopkins? That fight was at a catchweight of 170 lbs. Pavlik was dominated by a weight drained Hopkins who gave up double the amount of weight than the two pounds Cotto might have to.
What about Joe Calzaghe's win over Hopkins? That was fought at 173 lbs so again Hopkins was weight drained. Why didn't they fight at the full 175 limit, does Calzaghe get no credit for that win?
I honestly think you guys are just letting your hate overtake your common sense.
I'm not clouded by hate in the slightest. I just happen to like the divisions we have and don't see the purpose nor point in having fighters not fighting at the given weights. If a 140 fighter is unable to get up to 147 then why should another fighter come down to a catchweight just to give the other guy more of a shot at pulling out the win. It's a lame move and I fail to see any merit in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo's MomMiles you are simply wrong mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Had Oscar beaten Hopkins you wouldn't have credited him with that win?
As he lost, does that mean he's fucking useless as Hopkins must surely have been weight drained at 158 lbs and Oscar still got knocked out?
What about Hopkins win over Tarver? Tarver had just dropped down from heavyweight, Hopkins just beat a shell?
What about Pavlik losing to Hopkins? That fight was at a catchweight of 170 lbs. Pavlik was dominated by a weight drained Hopkins who gave up double the amount of weight than the two pounds Cotto might have to.
What about Joe Calzaghe's win over Hopkins? That was fought at 173 lbs so again Hopkins was weight drained. Why didn't they fight at the full 175 limit, does Calzaghe get no credit for that win?
I honestly think you guys are just letting your hate overtake your common sense.
Anyway, this thread is talking about Pac against Cotto, so in this situation I see NO reason why Manny couldn't find Cotto at 147 pounds. Why even bother having negotiations trying to buy Manny a more favourable weight deal? If he can't deal with the weight then piss off and fight a 140 fighter.
It's a simple logic.
Neither of the two will fight in their natural weightclass. So who ever wins will earn credit. Same thing with JMM-PBF.
if Manny and Roach have so much faith in his abilities why not make the jump to 147? you wanna claim you're the best, you fight the best, at their best
You are completely missing the point. The weight classes and belts exist for fighters to fight and get recognition as being the best in that weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesI'm not clouded by hate in the slightest. I just happen to like the divisions we have and don't see the purpose nor point in having fighters not fighting at the given weights. If a 140 fighter is unable to get up to 147 then why should another fighter come down to a catchweight just to give the other guy more of a shot at pulling out the win. It's a lame move and I fail to see any merit in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo's MomMiles you are simply wrong mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Had Oscar beaten Hopkins you wouldn't have credited him with that win?
As he lost, does that mean he's fucking useless as Hopkins must surely have been weight drained at 158 lbs and Oscar still got knocked out?
What about Hopkins win over Tarver? Tarver had just dropped down from heavyweight, Hopkins just beat a shell?
What about Pavlik losing to Hopkins? That fight was at a catchweight of 170 lbs. Pavlik was dominated by a weight drained Hopkins who gave up double the amount of weight than the two pounds Cotto might have to.
What about Joe Calzaghe's win over Hopkins? That was fought at 173 lbs so again Hopkins was weight drained. Why didn't they fight at the full 175 limit, does Calzaghe get no credit for that win?
I honestly think you guys are just letting your hate overtake your common sense.
Anyway, this thread is talking about Pac against Cotto, so in this situation I see NO reason why Manny couldn't find Cotto at 147 pounds. Why even bother having negotiations trying to buy Manny a more favourable weight deal? If he can't deal with the weight then piss off and fight a 140 fighter.
It's a simple logic.
When you reach the level of elite p4p fighter you transcend the weight classes and belts and move onto being an elite fighter.
Then the challenge is to fight other elite fighters who also have proved themselves the best in their weight class.
The whole world then wants to see these elite fighters fight each other, they become megafights.
You are just putting obstacles in the way of great fights how can you not see that?
If Cotto was still fighting at 140 you'd have no problem, you'd just be psyched because you were going to see a great fight.
But because he's moved to 147 you willingly submit yourself to some strange rules bondage and can no longer enjoy any fight between them unless it takes place at 147 lbs exactly and meets all the terms and requirements as laid down by the WBO Boxing Organisation. :confused:
Why does it matter about a weight class or a belt? Is the WBO strap really that important to you?
Manny is the 140 lb champ and Cotto is the 147 lb champ. It's not about Manny moving up to become the 147 lb champ he doesn't care about the WBO belt or the weight class, he want to beat Cotto.
So they fight at a catchweight agreeable to both fighters. If heaven forbid, there's no WBO belt on the line I think we can cope with that.
Think of all the great fights in history? How many do you look back on and can think ah yes this was for the WBC and IBF belts, and this took place in the junior lightweight division?
When we are talking about elite fighters who fight in many weight classes and win many belts it's not the belts and weight classes that are important, it's the fights.
Cotto is one of the 10 best fighters PFP in the world. Anytime you beat a Top 10 PFP fighter, you deserve credit for it.
Cotto will likely weigh 160+ on fight night. Pacquiao will likely weigh in the high 140s. Anytime you can beat a Top 10 PFP fighter who outweighs you by 10 pounds on fight night, you deserve a lot of credit for it.
If Pacquiao beats Cotto, he deserves a lot of credit for it. I don't see how anyone could suggest otherwise.
He should get a lot of credit, but not as much as he would if the fight took place at 147. Beating Cotto at 145 is a monumental accomplishment for a fighter who started where Pac did, but it will be a defeat over a fighter who is not at his best. If it does take place at 145, people will be arguing the merits of the victory for the next 20 years.
One of my main issues (Killer brought this up, I think) is the fact that there is going to be a title on the line; titles should not be able to change hands at catchweights. If it's for the title, it's got to be at 147, otherwise the catchweight is fine (though, like I said above, people will use it as a means by which to debate the merit of the win).
I'd like to see them fight at 147, Pac would still win handily IMO.
Bilbo, you're missing the point I think. If this fight was made at 147, I guarantee more people would think Pacquiao would win. The fact is, he is THAT good, he could compete at 147 and win. To become great, you have to be willing to take great risk. The fact that I read that the WBO are already planning to sanction this fight as a Welterweight title fight is what makes this more annoying, because its not a Welterweight fight, its a fucking catchweight fight.
I am one of the few people on here who honestly believes that at 147, Manny would totally outbox Shane Mosley for 12 rounds. He is a superb fighter. So as the #1 fighter in the world, looking to put a further stamp on his legacy, why not fight at 147. He has absolutely nothing to lose!
I have to say this is a great argument. Pacman does have nothing to lose. Even if he loses at 147 it would be because he jumped out of his comfort zone, but if he were to win it would be really huge. But I still think Shane is just too big and skilled for Pacman at 147. He has a good chance against Cotto at 147, but not Shane imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfn
I agree about the titles not being on the line, but really who cares. Most people wouldn't even be able to name the belt they are fighting for without going to boxrec to check. (It's the WBO)Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
And it's kind of funny logic to be put out or offended by the possibility of Manny Pacquaio winning a WBO strap by beating Miguel Cotto in a megafight when the WBC routinely has two world champs per division and when Juan Urango and Herman Ngoudjo can fight for a world title because Paullie Malignaggi and Ricky Hatton didn't want to pay their ridiculous fee demands.
What I'm saying is that the world boxing organisations are corrupt as fuck and if a former flyweight after moving up 8 divisions in his career fights and beats that division's great champion I don't mind if they give him the belt even though the fighters weighed three lbs below the maximum weight limit.
People have built Shane up again I think. But Margarito is a target that doesn't move his head. Manny gets in and out so fast and Shane isn't getting any younger. Inactivity will be his downfall sooner or later.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI have to say this is a great argument. Pacman does have nothing to lose. Even if he loses at 147 it would be because he jumped out of his comfort zone, but if he were to win it would be really huge. But I still think Shane is just too big and skilled for Pacman at 147. He has a good chance against Cotto at 147, but not Shane imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfn
I agree winning at 147 lbs would be insane and he could possibly do it, but it's a huge risk and if he decides a catchweight is a better bet I don't blame him.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfn
All fighters seek to negotiate the best fight arrangements for themselves. Floyd forced Diego Corales back to superfeatherweight to agree to fight him, Julio Ceaser Chavez negotiated a catchweight against Pernell Whittaker as did Meldric Taylor against Terry Norris.
Oscar made Hopkins come down to 158, the Pavlik fight was made at a catchweight of 170, the Calzaghe fight at 173.
Some of the greatest fights in history were catchweight.
All the Gatti Ward fights catchweights, Ray Leonard fought Tommy Hearns at catchweight, Duran fought at catchweight.
It's entirely normal and reasonable and has been used throughout boxing history to bring great champions from different weight classes together and allow the fight to be made.
Armchair fans will moan right now (as they do about everything) but once the fight is in the books nobody will look back and care that it was fought at 145 lbs.
Yes.Kellerman hit that nail on the head last month."Belts these days are pretty useless and are steeping stones to big name fights".....something along those lines.
As long as a fighter is fighting at his proven best weight and not depleted or out of range for the sake of a name affair,thats all we should ask for.Way to much bartering these days...less talk...more fight.I think Manny can carry 145 and can beat Cotto.
Good manQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
Where is the risk? He has nothing to lose. Nobody is going to think any less of him if he lost. He's not the champion. He's not the Welterweight. He's #1 fighter in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo's MomI agree winning at 147 lbs would be insane and he could possibly do it, but it's a huge risk and if he decides a catchweight is a better bet I don't blame him.Quote:
Originally Posted by bzkfn
All fighters seek to negotiate the best fight arrangements for themselves. Floyd forced Diego Corales back to superfeatherweight to agree to fight him, Julio Ceaser Chavez negotiated a catchweight against Pernell Whittaker as did Meldric Taylor against Terry Norris.
Oscar made Hopkins come down to 158, the Pavlik fight was made at a catchweight of 170, the Calzaghe fight at 173.
Some of the greatest fights in history were catchweight.
All the Gatti Ward fights catchweights, Ray Leonard fought Tommy Hearns at catchweight, Duran fought at catchweight.
It's entirely normal and reasonable and has been used throughout boxing history to bring great champions from different weight classes together and allow the fight to be made.
Armchair fans will moan right now (as they do about everything) but once the fight is in the books nobody will look back and care that it was fought at 145 lbs.
PAC and any other fighter should get credit for beating whoever at whatever. Much as I hate catchweights if a mutha you know what agree's to the terms then it shouldn't matter if they fight in jello (my wife's idea) you get your ass beat you get it beat no excuses and your pocketbook and ranking should suffer accordingly......PAC fans may get out of hand but let's not let hating them affect PAC's accomplishments in any way then those cacks win twice.
IMO, Pac should get credit if he beats Cotto at 145. Two pounds is two pounds... and Cotto should be comfortable at that weight. That being said, I'm more worried about Cotto's cut than about anything else. Doctors have said November is too soon for the cut to heal properly, but knowing Cotto, he'll say the hell with it and go on with the fight in November as planned. I just hope he doesn't get any permanent damage to his eye.
Should cotto get credit for beating pac at 145.
I said "yes" to the original question..... I'll say "yes" to this one as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer
Ah, but would you have given Cotto credit for beating PAC at 147?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanI said "yes" to the original question..... I'll say "yes" to this one as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer
Mom is banned also ??? Wow.Just want to clear this up...I think Pac can come in at 145 and beat Cotto at 147.Belts not required.Do not think Cotto should reduce past that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo's MomGood manQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
I think it's bullsh#t; wanna' fight Cotto go to his territory. With that said if Cotto and his team agree to it then hell yeah he should get credit. Cotto is playing a dangerous game though giving even a couple of pounds to this tsunami in human form.
should pacman get credit for beating cotto at 145. hell fukking yes, remember cotto was a very effective 140 lbs er. yeah now hes a 147 fighter whats 2 pound short of that, its fukk all really, ive been a boxer and i no 2 pound is not that much, come on
It's just two pounds! I can understand if your having to make a 10 pound weight change, but come on its two meesly pounds, When i wake up in the morning I lose two pounds from taking a dump, so yes he should get credit!
Ofcourse PAC should get credit!!! My oh My just over a year ago PAC was just a superfeatherweight:cool:
Um ya... i think that would be a resounding yes.
It's hard to please everybody.
Pacquiao ducked many, Campbell can't name any
Campbell accusing PAC of ducking black fighters.
IMHO it's only Mosely that PAC's handlers have a fear of fighting.
Seriously who thinks Campbell poses a greater threat than Cotto:o
Campbell is a nice guy no doubt but he is way over his head to say that he is the best 140 pounder out there.
I'm fed up of hearing it. Fight Cotto at 147, then no one can say shit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Spicy article was that;D
I would rather they just do it at 147 as those who don't want to give Pacquaio any credit for anything will seize on this.
That and some will just genuinely think its not as meaningful at 145. Which is fine although I don't totally agree.
But SweetPea nailed it IMO. Of course its a huge accomplishment. And there's context too, circumstances, Cotto isn't a huge welter, he's really a tweener, too big for 140, not a huge welter. If Margarito or Williams, for example, were forced to make 145 I think it would be a bigger deal as they are really 154 pounders fighting at welterweights. Or at least were fighting there in PWill's case.
Yeah he should get credit. They are two measly pounds as another poster put it, but if that's the case then remove the catchweight all together.
I'm against the catchweight, but don't think it will affect Cotto's performance if it's 145.
Should Pac win he deserves all credit. I still say he loses by KO though.