Article: Russia and China warn US that an Israeli attack on Iran means world war...

Russia-China Warn US That Israeli Attack On Iran Means “World War” Dprogram.net

Russia-China Warn US That Israeli Attack On Iran Means “World War”

I'm not sure how reliable these sources are, but that is some scary shit, especially given that Is. cannot allow a nuclear armed Iran to exist.

It's not included in the title, but it seems like the key here is if Israel attacks Iran with nuclear weapons. I wonder about the response from the Russians and Chinese should Israel attempt to destroy Iran the old fashioned way...

WTF? I thought we were cool wth Russia now. Oh well we are f#cked if 1 billion Chinese and 500 million Russians get guns blazing. Fukk it I'm going to sit on my roof and wait. Giving Israel that homeland back was stupid; sorry no offense meant. That has caused more bs over the years.

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Originally Posted by LEGION

WTF? I thought we were cool wth Russia now. Oh well we are f#cked if 1 billion Chinese and 500 million Russians get guns blazing. Fukk it I'm going to sit on my roof and wait. Giving Israel that homeland back was stupid; sorry no offense meant. That has caused more bs over the years.

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It wouldn't just be the U.S. fighting them, something like that would spiral out of control rapidly. Canada, Australia, Britain, France, Germany (fuck, pretty much all of Western/Central Europe) would all join the U.S. Which ever way India sided would result in a huge shift in the balance of power etc.

I can't stand Israel as a nation, the whole situation has been a mess for almost 100 years now, but they're not going anywhere and they absolutely cannot allow a nuclear armed Iran to exist. The nutjob leader of Iran, who's name I'm too goddamn lazy to figure out how to spell, has swore to eradicate Israel.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by LEGION

WTF? I thought we were cool wth Russia now. Oh well we are f#cked if 1 billion Chinese and 500 million Russians get guns blazing. Fukk it I'm going to sit on my roof and wait. Giving Israel that homeland back was stupid; sorry no offense meant. That has caused more bs over the years.

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It wouldn't just be the U.S. fighting them, something like that would spiral out of control rapidly. Canada, Australia, Britain, France, Germany (fuck, pretty much all of Western/Central Europe) would all join the U.S. Which ever way India sided would result in a huge shift in the balance of power etc.

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I understan; I just worded it wrong; I meant we are all fukked; the whole planet. Wonder which way Japan goes? You know N. Korea is just waiting with baited breath. Israel is a small island in the middle of shark infested waters.

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Originally Posted by LEGION

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by LEGION

WTF? I thought we were cool wth Russia now. Oh well we are f#cked if 1 billion Chinese and 500 million Russians get guns blazing. Fukk it I'm going to sit on my roof and wait. Giving Israel that homeland back was stupid; sorry no offense meant. That has caused more bs over the years.

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It wouldn't just be the U.S. fighting them, something like that would spiral out of control rapidly. Canada, Australia, Britain, France, Germany (fuck, pretty much all of Western/Central Europe) would all join the U.S. Which ever way India sided would result in a huge shift in the balance of power etc.

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I understan; I just worded it wrong; I meant we are all fukked; the whole planet. Wonder which way Japan goes? You know N. Korea is just waiting with baited breath. Israel is a small island in the middle of shark infested waters.

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Japan is an American ally, I can't image then going any other way.

Like I said in my post, I cannot stand Israel, but I would be able to understand their reasons for attacking Iran.

Well if the Sisters of Sorcha Faal say it is true, it surely must be. a haha

But yea, that whole situation is a clusterfuk of skeery stuff. And so is Russia teaming up with China for an anything pissed off against the USA for. Because that means us too. We've been thru the good years with the USA, so if the bad times come, we get those largely too.

I think if I was to learn a language outside of french for practicality in our own country, or anywhere for that matter, I think I would make it mandarin. I think we'll all be speaking it eventually.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by LEGION

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Originally Posted by CFH

It wouldn't just be the U.S. fighting them, something like that would spiral out of control rapidly. Canada, Australia, Britain, France, Germany (fuck, pretty much all of Western/Central Europe) would all join the U.S. Which ever way India sided would result in a huge shift in the balance of power etc.

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I understan; I just worded it wrong; I meant we are all fukked; the whole planet. Wonder which way Japan goes? You know N. Korea is just waiting with baited breath. Israel is a small island in the middle of shark infested waters.

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Japan is an American ally, I can't image then going any other way.

Like I said in my post, I cannot stand Israel, but I would be able to understand their reasons for attacking Iran.

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Yeah as soon as I posted it I thought how dumb of me. I was too anxious to get back to the Dana Whitey Trash thread;D Thy couldn't do anything because we have bases there DUH:dunce: :vd: :bag: Oh well fukk you Mr. Smarty Man.

China dont need to lift a finger...just hold our national debt over our heads and wave its finger....The irony that they dont 'warn' Israel but us :cwm13:

As I study more or less into that field, the subject entirely interests me:
International politics will always be about how long you can show your teeth and how hard you can potentially bite. The middle East is a time bomb waiting to explode and this little tiny and desert place gets more destructive power than what can meet the eyes, seriously. The fact is: Israel should never have been created, before the zionists kicked in, the jewish peoples living there were getting along fairly well with the Muslim and there was no such things as the Martyr brigades or way too radical Hasidims.
NOw the mess has been created, the problem got worst: ISrael is defying the fronteers of 1967 and are occupying illegally many country, inclusing Palestine, the Golan's heights, Cijordania and are not giving a flying "F" about what the international community is saying. SInce 1967, more than 200 resolutions have been voted against Israel but the US used their veto every single time.. contributing to worsen the problem, naturally.
NOw that Russia and China's economy are soaring and that western Europe and AMerica are on the slow motion, there is a shifting in balance, at least, by a few kilos, let's see how it goes but let's all hope that nobody will go to the clash because with such size, it'll get ugly. One good thing though: Russia and USA did sign an agreement to reduce considerably their nuclear weapons stuck, if Israel would do the same, I think that the chances to see Iran giving up on their program would be a bit better, the idea why they want such weapons is beacause their neighbors ennemy have some and they feel threatened (though the ayatollah over there and Amadinejad is a dumbfuck dangerous psychopath, I can see why they feel a bit threatened by Israel on that issue).

For a number of years after the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia had to focus on recuperation and restoration. Now that they are more or less back on their feet, they'd love to be able to go push for shove with the U.S., but would not dare to challenge them directly, a Middle East confrontation gives them the excuse they want/need to really start exerting some influence and be a superpower again. This is especially true with a guy like Putin in charge. For a while I liked Putin, he was a strong leader they needed, but he's become a dangerous person who can't be trusted.

I agree with the consensus on that Iranian dude though. He really is an asshole of the highest order.

I think its time to build an undergroud shelter.

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Originally Posted by ICB

I think its time to build an undergroud shelter.

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You should start today.

Me; I'm going to lay on my roof and masturbate as soon as I hear the bombs coming my way. What the hell:woot22:

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Originally Posted by Nameless

As I study more or less into that field, the subject entirely interests me:
International politics will always be about how long you can show your teeth and how hard you can potentially bite. The middle East is a time bomb waiting to explode and this little tiny and desert place gets more destructive power than what can meet the eyes, seriously. The fact is: Israel should never have been created, before the zionists kicked in, the jewish peoples living there were getting along fairly well with the Muslim and there was no such things as the Martyr brigades or way too radical Hasidims.
NOw the mess has been created, the problem got worst: ISrael is defying the fronteers of 1967 and are occupying illegally many country, inclusing Palestine, the Golan's heights, Cijordania and are not giving a flying "F" about what the international community is saying. SInce 1967, more than 200 resolutions have been voted against Israel but the US used their veto every single time.. contributing to worsen the problem, naturally.
NOw that Russia and China's economy are soaring and that western Europe and AMerica are on the slow motion, there is a shifting in balance, at least, by a few kilos, let's see how it goes but let's all hope that nobody will go to the clash because with such size, it'll get ugly. One good thing though: Russia and USA did sign an agreement to reduce considerably their nuclear weapons stuck, if Israel would do the same, I think that the chances to see Iran giving up on their program would be a bit better, the idea why they want such weapons is beacause their neighbors ennemy have some and they feel threatened (though the ayatollah over there and Amadinejad is a dumbfuck dangerous psychopath, I can see why they feel a bit threatened by Israel on that issue).

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While I agree with that, the entity of Palestine was an arbitrary western creation as well. I know this seems random, but that's something I feel is also overlooked in the whole Israel - Palestine discussion.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Nameless

As I study more or less into that field, the subject entirely interests me:
International politics will always be about how long you can show your teeth and how hard you can potentially bite. The middle East is a time bomb waiting to explode and this little tiny and desert place gets more destructive power than what can meet the eyes, seriously. The fact is: Israel should never have been created, before the zionists kicked in, the jewish peoples living there were getting along fairly well with the Muslim and there was no such things as the Martyr brigades or way too radical Hasidims.
NOw the mess has been created, the problem got worst: ISrael is defying the fronteers of 1967 and are occupying illegally many country, inclusing Palestine, the Golan's heights, Cijordania and are not giving a flying "F" about what the international community is saying. SInce 1967, more than 200 resolutions have been voted against Israel but the US used their veto every single time.. contributing to worsen the problem, naturally.
NOw that Russia and China's economy are soaring and that western Europe and AMerica are on the slow motion, there is a shifting in balance, at least, by a few kilos, let's see how it goes but let's all hope that nobody will go to the clash because with such size, it'll get ugly. One good thing though: Russia and USA did sign an agreement to reduce considerably their nuclear weapons stuck, if Israel would do the same, I think that the chances to see Iran giving up on their program would be a bit better, the idea why they want such weapons is beacause their neighbors ennemy have some and they feel threatened (though the ayatollah over there and Amadinejad is a dumbfuck dangerous psychopath, I can see why they feel a bit threatened by Israel on that issue).

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While I agree with that, the entity of Palestine was an arbitrary western creation as well. I know this seems random, but that's something I feel is also overlooked in the whole Israel - Palestine discussion.

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That's true enough, but what is also seldom mentioned is that when the west (the UN actually) was trying to stickhandle this whole mess after the war, the Arab leaders took a hard line and didn't exactly play ball, and the UN called their bluff and acted unilaterally and the palestinian people got the short end of the stick.

We should have stayed and ruled these countries we carved out over there (France, England, European Powers, US). If we had been real imperialists I think it would be better in the mIddle east and for sure in Africa. It is too late now though.

I like Israel. The other countries can't be trusted anyway and Israel doesn't fuck around. Truman gave the Jews Israel for financing us during the world wars I think??

I cannot stand Israel and the behaviour it has been allowed to get away wiith since its dubious inception. And even now they continue to get away with all kinds of shit. America and the UK should be ashamed of themselves for the continued support and turning of a blind eye to war crimes and attrocities commited in the name of state building and border expansion.

Israel is an anomaly and that is why there is so much tension in the Middle East. Israel shouldn't even be there. :rolleyes:

It's all nonesense. Israel won't attack Iran with nukes and if they do conventionally attack them it'll only guarantee the Iranians build a bomb.

The whole thing is just sensationalised by an Israel-supporting western media. Iran aren't currently building a nuke and all the material they have to build one is under 24/7 inspector/camera surveillance by the IAEA, something that is never mentioned in the western media. If they did decide tobuild one it'd be big news and we'd have at least a year's notice*, and neither Russia or China would give a monkeys if we did bomb them.

*and even then they'd have an untested weapon with no missile to stick it on and fire it more than a couple of hundred miles. Building a decent long range missile is something they won't be able to do as long as they're under sanctions, so chill.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

It's all nonesense. Israel won't attack Iran with nukes and if they do conventionally attack them it'll only guarantee the Iranians build a bomb.

The whole thing is just sensationalised by an Israel-supporting western media. Iran aren't currently building a nuke and all the material they have to build one is under 24/7 inspector/camera surveillance by the IAEA, something that is never mentioned in the western media. If they did decide tobuild one it'd be big news and we'd have at least a year's notice*, and neither Russia or China would give a monkeys if we did bomb them.

*and even then they'd have an untested weapon with no missile to stick it on and fire it more than a couple of hundred miles. Building a decent long range missile is something they won't be able to do as long as they're under sanctions, so chill.

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So you must have a more reliable source then?

both at the same time might be tricky but individually the air and sea war would be over inside six months. After that it is just a matter of how much we were willing to sacrifice in regards to a ground fight. But as Kirk said..all bark no bite.

Damn this is quite scary and also in a way exciting news.

According to the Bible, this age will end after the formation of the One World Order and then the inevitable turning on Israel by every nation of the world.

In Revelation it talks of the Euphrates river being damned up and an army of 200 Million marching on Israel.

for almost one hundred years biblical scholars have been saying this will be the Chinese.

Also it then says when the armies surround Israel a massive explosion occurs, that those surrounding the city have their eyeballs melt in their sockets, that one third of mankind is killed and that the leaders of men hide in caves.

This nucluear war has been predicted even for the past 2000 years.

If you think I'm being far fetched as usual, consider also that the exact date of the refounding of Israel, in 1948 was predicted by scholars as early as the 1800's.

EVERYTHING in the Bible is coming true exactly as it says it would.

It's some scary shit to be sure, but also exciting that those of us alive now could be alive to witness the end of the ages.

We're hurtling towards the last days now.

Here's a few prophecies for anyone who cares probably just me and Bruce but still :p

10 Prophecies Fulfilled in 1948

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

It's all nonesense. Israel won't attack Iran with nukes and if they do conventionally attack them it'll only guarantee the Iranians build a bomb.

The whole thing is just sensationalised by an Israel-supporting western media. Iran aren't currently building a nuke and all the material they have to build one is under 24/7 inspector/camera surveillance by the IAEA, something that is never mentioned in the western media. If they did decide tobuild one it'd be big news and we'd have at least a year's notice*, and neither Russia or China would give a monkeys if we did bomb them.

*and even then they'd have an untested weapon with no missile to stick it on and fire it more than a couple of hundred miles. Building a decent long range missile is something they won't be able to do as long as they're under sanctions, so chill.

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Neither of these articles are from major media outlets to the best of my knowledge. That's what I found so surprising about the articles, that the statements from Russia/China had been wholly ignored by major western media sources (again, to the best of my knowledge).

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Nameless

As I study more or less into that field, the subject entirely interests me:
International politics will always be about how long you can show your teeth and how hard you can potentially bite. The middle East is a time bomb waiting to explode and this little tiny and desert place gets more destructive power than what can meet the eyes, seriously. The fact is: Israel should never have been created, before the zionists kicked in, the jewish peoples living there were getting along fairly well with the Muslim and there was no such things as the Martyr brigades or way too radical Hasidims.
NOw the mess has been created, the problem got worst: ISrael is defying the fronteers of 1967 and are occupying illegally many country, inclusing Palestine, the Golan's heights, Cijordania and are not giving a flying "F" about what the international community is saying. SInce 1967, more than 200 resolutions have been voted against Israel but the US used their veto every single time.. contributing to worsen the problem, naturally.
NOw that Russia and China's economy are soaring and that western Europe and AMerica are on the slow motion, there is a shifting in balance, at least, by a few kilos, let's see how it goes but let's all hope that nobody will go to the clash because with such size, it'll get ugly. One good thing though: Russia and USA did sign an agreement to reduce considerably their nuclear weapons stuck, if Israel would do the same, I think that the chances to see Iran giving up on their program would be a bit better, the idea why they want such weapons is beacause their neighbors ennemy have some and they feel threatened (though the ayatollah over there and Amadinejad is a dumbfuck dangerous psychopath, I can see why they feel a bit threatened by Israel on that issue).

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While I agree with that, the entity of Palestine was an arbitrary western creation as well. I know this seems random, but that's something I feel is also overlooked in the whole Israel - Palestine discussion.

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That's true enough, but what is also seldom mentioned is that when the west (the UN actually) was trying to stickhandle this whole mess after the war, the Arab leaders took a hard line and didn't exactly play ball, and the UN called their bluff and acted unilaterally and the palestinian people got the short end of the stick.

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The modern knot of this struggle is the structure of the UN: The security concil and the unlimited veto they can blindly use. i wrote an article that will get published about it in a few months, halas it's in french otherwise I would upload it for the interested ones, I just need to make a few touches up and it's done. If one couldn't use the veto more than X times on some regions or some cases, Israel wouldn't be on the winning end as they would face sanctions. Unfortunately, the consil can wage as many vetos as they want and then, countries of that consil can protect their own interests and we have the mess we face now, especially because it gives all the flux of arguments to fill the mulsim radical groups: "- you see, the international community aren't helping us and aren't willing to do so, the only solution we have is Allah and to show them what we're made of'". Change the veto situation and on the other end, you also choke down the muslim radicals as their revendications are obsolete if Palestine recover their lost boundaries and have a legitimate state.

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Originally Posted by Nameless

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by CFH

While I agree with that, the entity of Palestine was an arbitrary western creation as well. I know this seems random, but that's something I feel is also overlooked in the whole Israel - Palestine discussion.

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That's true enough, but what is also seldom mentioned is that when the west (the UN actually) was trying to stickhandle this whole mess after the war, the Arab leaders took a hard line and didn't exactly play ball, and the UN called their bluff and acted unilaterally and the palestinian people got the short end of the stick.

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The modern knot of this struggle is the structure of the UN: The security concil and the unlimited veto they can blindly use. i wrote an article that will get published about it in a few months, halas it's in french otherwise I would upload it for the interested ones, I just need to make a few touches up and it's done. If one couldn't use the veto more than X times on some regions or some cases, Israel wouldn't be on the winning end as they would face sanctions. Unfortunately, the consil can wage as many vetos as they want and then, countries of that consil can protect their own interests and we have the mess we face now, especially because it gives all the flux of arguments to fill the mulsim radical groups: "- you see, the international community aren't helping us and aren't willing to do so, the only solution we have is Allah and to show them what we're made of'". Change the veto situation and on the other end, you also choke down the muslim radicals as their revendications are obsolete if Palestine recover their lost boundaries and have a legitimate state.

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Well, point taken, I wasn't so much referring to what is happening now is to what happened back then when Israel was formed. But yeah, the UN now sure has it's flaws and limitations. The veto system certainly hi-lites those flaws, but I'm nott convinced veto system is the problem in and of itself, but it is misused by those who have veto power as a way to further their politics. The real problem is a total lack of consensus on the politics.

Anyways, I'm interested in your article, give us a link when it gets published, even if it is in French I have friends that can deal with that.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Damn this is quite scary and also in a way exciting news.

According to the Bible, this age will end after the formation of the One World Order and then the inevitable turning on Israel by every nation of the world.

In Revelation it talks of the Euphrates river being damned up and an army of 200 Million marching on Israel.

for almost one hundred years biblical scholars have been saying this will be the Chinese.

Also it then says when the armies surround Israel a massive explosion occurs, that those surrounding the city have their eyeballs melt in their sockets, that one third of mankind is killed and that the leaders of men hide in caves.

This nucluear war has been predicted even for the past 2000 years.

If you think I'm being far fetched as usual, consider also that the exact date of the refounding of Israel, in 1948 was predicted by scholars as early as the 1800's.

EVERYTHING in the Bible is coming true exactly as it says it would.

It's some scary shit to be sure, but also exciting that those of us alive now could be alive to witness the end of the ages.

We're hurtling towards the last days now.

---

I've always wanted to see Israel finally reap its come-uppance. If it takes the end of the world to do it then thats fair enough. But I'm not too sure about all that Bible jazz.

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

both at the same time might be tricky but individually the air and sea war would be over inside six months. After that it is just a matter of how much we were willing to sacrifice in regards to a ground fight. But as Kirk said..all bark no bite.

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Iran is five times bigger than Iraq geographically with three times as many people. Unlike Iraq where sixteen million Kurds and Shiites were basically on our side against an insurgency derived from five million Iraqi Sunnis, Iran would have an insurgency derived from a population ten times as big, a population still pissed off that we were there a generation ago. In Iraq we fought the insurgency for a while, gave up, put them on the payroll and declared victory. But it took every spare soldier the west could scrape to gether just to hang on there for a few years. We wouldn't get that luxury in Iran. Going in on the ground is not an option unless we had a twenty times bigger army and trillions to fund it, so it's ruled out on both those counts. And what would you get if you did invade? A pissed-off population who'd eventually kick us out then be even more radical than they are now, and zero chance of us gaining anything. We've already got a war like that going on in Afghanistan. All we could do is bomb them and bombing them would 100% guarantee they'd get round to building a nuke, so using the military is pointless.

Russia and China don't want any part of us....sure we're stretched thin and all, but we still have superior fire power and it's just a FACT that people like Freedom and Liberty more than what Russia and China offer people.

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

It's all nonesense. Israel won't attack Iran with nukes and if they do conventionally attack them it'll only guarantee the Iranians build a bomb.

The whole thing is just sensationalised by an Israel-supporting western media. Iran aren't currently building a nuke and all the material they have to build one is under 24/7 inspector/camera surveillance by the IAEA, something that is never mentioned in the western media. If they did decide tobuild one it'd be big news and we'd have at least a year's notice*, and neither Russia or China would give a monkeys if we did bomb them.

*and even then they'd have an untested weapon with no missile to stick it on and fire it more than a couple of hundred miles. Building a decent long range missile is something they won't be able to do as long as they're under sanctions, so chill.

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So you must have a more reliable source then?

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If you read the final few paragraphs on page A48 of the New York Times they eventually get round to saying "but yesterday the IAEA head urged caution over the claims made yesterday by [US neocon loonies in America or some Israeli nutjob politician who the main article is all about] and pointed out that the IAEA have all Iran's nuclear activities under constant monitoring and don't think Iran are even trying to build a bomb." But the qualifiers from people who actually know what they're talking about never make it in the versions you get from hysterical journalists and cable news nuts, because it takes the scary away and doesn't get them ratings or headlines.

Here's the IAEA head :

SZ: In your report it says that Iran is gaining an ever greater mastery of uranium enrichment. Can the USA and Israel accept the fact that Iran is on the threshold of becoming a virtual nuclear power?
ELBARADEI: The question is, what can they do? What are the alternatives to direct negotiations? As long as we are monitoring their facilities, they cannot develop nuclear weapons. And they still do not have the ingredients to make a bomb overnight.


Transcript of Interview with IAEA Director General Mohamed ElBaradei




Here's an article from the Guardian, this is one of the less hysterical ones you get about Iran :


The UN's nuclear watchdog reported today that Iran had managed to enrich a metric tonne of low enriched uranium (LEU), which UN officials say is technically enough to build a nuclear weapon.


So you can turn that into a scary "Iran have enough uranium for a nuke! story easy and I'm sure if you check Fox News website on that date you'll find one. But this is 2% enriched uranium, good for fuel for a nuclear plant (like the Iranians are going to use it for) but nowhere near good enough for a bomb (99+%).


Later in the article :


"Do they have enough LEU to produce a 'significant quantity' of HEU [enough for a bomb]? Yes, if you count the U235 atoms then they do have a significant quantity of HEU," a senior official close to the IAEA said. "But it is theoretical and they would need to use their full capacity to do so. They are not there yet. If they were to build another clandestine facility, then that would be different."
The official added that: "The nuclear material has been under containment and surveillance at all times."


So the truth is they have enough low enriched stuff to power their nuclear power plant which comes online soon. They put an agreement on the table a while ago that would allow them to run nuclear power plants and have their entire nuke programme to be constantly monitored (as it is now) if America dropped sanctions on Iran, normalised relations etc. But it wasn't even acknowledged by the Americans.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Russia and China don't want any part of us....sure we're stretched thin and all, but we still have superior fire power and it's just a FACT that people like Freedom and Liberty more than what Russia and China offer people.

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People in the Middle East tend to get the other end of the superior firepower rather than the freedom and liberty thing though.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

It's all nonesense. Israel won't attack Iran with nukes and if they do conventionally attack them it'll only guarantee the Iranians build a bomb.

The whole thing is just sensationalised by an Israel-supporting western media. Iran aren't currently building a nuke and all the material they have to build one is under 24/7 inspector/camera surveillance by the IAEA, something that is never mentioned in the western media. If they did decide tobuild one it'd be big news and we'd have at least a year's notice*, and neither Russia or China would give a monkeys if we did bomb them.

*and even then they'd have an untested weapon with no missile to stick it on and fire it more than a couple of hundred miles. Building a decent long range missile is something they won't be able to do as long as they're under sanctions, so chill.

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Neither of these articles are from major media outlets to the best of my knowledge. That's what I found so surprising about the articles, that the statements from Russia/China had been wholly ignored by major western media sources (again, to the best of my knowledge).

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Russia (and i'm sure China) have a bunch of loony tune outlets that are full of stories like this all the time.

Pravda.Ru: Russian news and analysis

Today they've got reports about blonde women ruling the world (at all times!), Israel having to buy more US weapons (actually given them on welfare) because of the super duper weapons Russia just sold Iran, and a UFO over Area 51. :)

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

It's all nonesense. Israel won't attack Iran with nukes and if they do conventionally attack them it'll only guarantee the Iranians build a bomb.

The whole thing is just sensationalised by an Israel-supporting western media. Iran aren't currently building a nuke and all the material they have to build one is under 24/7 inspector/camera surveillance by the IAEA, something that is never mentioned in the western media. If they did decide tobuild one it'd be big news and we'd have at least a year's notice*, and neither Russia or China would give a monkeys if we did bomb them.

*and even then they'd have an untested weapon with no missile to stick it on and fire it more than a couple of hundred miles. Building a decent long range missile is something they won't be able to do as long as they're under sanctions, so chill.

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So you must have a more reliable source then?

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If you read the final few paragraphs on page A48 of the New York Times they eventually get round to saying "but yesterday the IAEA head urged caution over the claims made yesterday by [US neocon loonies in America or some Israeli nutjob politician who the main article is all about] and pointed out that the IAEA have all Iran's nuclear activities under constant monitoring and don't think Iran are even trying to build a bomb."
...

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ok my original remark was in reference to

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

...
Iran aren't currently building a nuke and all the material they have to build one is under 24/7 inspector/camera surveillance by the IAEA, something that is never mentioned in the western media.
...

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and i was intending to question whether you actually had access to verifiable facts that weren't being reported in the west.

The bolded remark in your last reply to me seems to support your original claim to a certain extent. The IAEA head doesn't actually come out and conclusively state that Iran isn't building a bomb as you seemed to do, but he comes reasonably close, so ok fine.

Let's put aside for the moment what Iran is actually telling people about what their intentions are. I am just a little skeptical that the IAEA can be so confident that there is nothing underhanded that is escaping their attention. Personally I believe

1. that if Iran had the ability to build a nuke, they would.
2. that if Iran had a way to do an end run around the IAEA monitoring they would do that too.
3. Israel has every reason to be nervous about this, regardless of whether or not I think they have a "right to exist".
3. there is no way way the IAEA can be absolutely certain they have everything under control. Ergo the remark: we "don't think Iran are even trying to build a bomb." This is not quite consistent with their claim that they have everything under surveillance.

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Nameless

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Originally Posted by CGM

That's true enough, but what is also seldom mentioned is that when the west (the UN actually) was trying to stickhandle this whole mess after the war, the Arab leaders took a hard line and didn't exactly play ball, and the UN called their bluff and acted unilaterally and the palestinian people got the short end of the stick.

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The modern knot of this struggle is the structure of the UN: The security concil and the unlimited veto they can blindly use. i wrote an article that will get published about it in a few months, halas it's in french otherwise I would upload it for the interested ones, I just need to make a few touches up and it's done. If one couldn't use the veto more than X times on some regions or some cases, Israel wouldn't be on the winning end as they would face sanctions. Unfortunately, the consil can wage as many vetos as they want and then, countries of that consil can protect their own interests and we have the mess we face now, especially because it gives all the flux of arguments to fill the mulsim radical groups: "- you see, the international community aren't helping us and aren't willing to do so, the only solution we have is Allah and to show them what we're made of'". Change the veto situation and on the other end, you also choke down the muslim radicals as their revendications are obsolete if Palestine recover their lost boundaries and have a legitimate state.

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Well, point taken, I wasn't so much referring to what is happening now is to what happened back then when Israel was formed. But yeah, the UN now sure has it's flaws and limitations. The veto system certainly hi-lites those flaws, but I'm nott convinced veto system is the problem in and of itself, but it is misused by those who have veto power as a way to further their politics. The real problem is a total lack of consensus on the politics.

Anyways, I'm interested in your article, give us a link when it gets published, even if it is in French I have friends that can deal with that.

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I have to send it tomorrow or in 2 days, I can send it to you in the meantime for a lecture if you want, it's more or less 15 full pages. Thus said, I really think after my researches that the veto system is a major problem, I explain why in a nutshell:

the 5 persons who are the only one to benefit it are the 5 kings winner of the second world war: France, China, Russia, UK, US, at the time, these countries were given that (by themselves, of course) as they were the "guardians" of the planet, the 5 most able nations. TOday things have chanced and many other countries are contributing even more to the UN than some of them (i.e Japan and Germany for example). On all the vetos waved, 90% have been used.. by Russia and the US. Basically, if you possess a veto, you can't be sentenced by anything at all by the UN, you're totally covered.
Not only that but any resolution voted by the general assembly depends about if you decide or not to use your veto, so basically, the article 97 that says that every nations are equal in the UN is pure bullshit as 5 countries can say no to whatever they want and nobody can't do nothing about it. To this day, more than 135 resolutions have been voted against israel because of their incredible and non-sense actions, war crimes and such... 135 times the international community said that it was too much and had to be sanctionned but the US did drown the whole thing, just making the problem bigger and bigger.
Everytime a resolution is voted or vetoed, not only the whole system is paralyzed but it costs hundred of thousand of dollars, sometimes millions thrown down the drain (hostel for everybody, paying security, deplacement, lawyers, translaters etc). If 75% of the world vote in favor of something, how can you justify that a random dude, because he won 70 years ago has the sole right to say no depending of his humor? especially when he's not "watching" as much as he's supposed to over the rest of the world? if you ask me, this is non-sense, the veto should be abolished or controlled, like you can't use it more than once a year or not more than once or twice when it concerns denounciations of a specific country.

OK bud, then hold off for now on sending the whole package. I'll take a little time to digest these few paragraphs and let you know if I have appetite for more.
:beerchug:

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by CGM

So you must have a more reliable source then?

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If you read the final few paragraphs on page A48 of the New York Times they eventually get round to saying "but yesterday the IAEA head urged caution over the claims made yesterday by [US neocon loonies in America or some Israeli nutjob politician who the main article is all about] and pointed out that the IAEA have all Iran's nuclear activities under constant monitoring and don't think Iran are even trying to build a bomb."
...

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ok my original remark was in reference to

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Iran aren't currently building a nuke and all the material they have to build one is under 24/7 inspector/camera surveillance by the IAEA, something that is never mentioned in the western media.
...

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and i was intending to question whether you actually had access to verifiable facts that weren't being reported in the west.

The bolded remark in your last reply to me seems to support your original claim to a certain extent. The IAEA head doesn't actually come out and conclusively state that Iran isn't building a bomb as you seemed to do, but he comes reasonably close, so ok fine.

Let's put aside for the moment what Iran is actually telling people about what their intentions are. I am just a little skeptical that the IAEA can be so confident that there is nothing underhanded that is escaping their attention. Personally I believe

1. that if Iran had the ability to build a nuke, they would.
2. that if Iran had a way to do an end run around the IAEA monitoring they would do that too.
3. Israel has every reason to be nervous about this, regardless of whether or not I think they have a "right to exist".
3. there is no way way the IAEA can be absolutely certain they have everything under control. Ergo the remark: we "don't think Iran are even trying to build a bomb." This is not quite consistent with their claim that they have everything under surveillance.

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The IAEA head has said they're not building a bomb and he doesn't think they're even planning to.

The UN nuclear watchdog chief Mohamed ElBaradei has once again highlighted the lack of evidence to prove Iran is after a nuclear bomb.

Speaking at a session of the World Economic Forum on the Middle East, ElBaradei reiterated the International Atomic Energy Agency has no evidence that Iran is seeking to develop an atomic bomb.

"We haven't seen indications or any concrete evidence that Iran is building a nuclear weapon and I've been saying that consistently for the last five years," ElBaradei asserted.

He said that the issue of Iran's nuclear standoff with the West is a problem of trust.

The IAEA boss referred to a December 3 joint assessment by 16 US spy agencies, which conceded that Tehran is not running a nuclear weapons program, and said that the US intelligence report agreed with his agency's assessment on Iran's nuclear program.

ElBaradei: Iran not after bomb

Now that's the first thing google found but I'm sure if you go to the IAEA website it's there somewhere or if you google the quote eventually some known media outlet somewhere will have reported it.

Iran have the ability to build a bomb but aren't. If they did they'd have an untested weapon with no delivery capability and no way of getting one while under sanctions. They have enough material for one bomb and it's under constant watch. The IAEA have a bunch of inspectors and cameras in Iran monitoring their entire operation constantly.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by CGM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

If you read the final few paragraphs on page A48 of the New York Times they eventually get round to saying "but yesterday the IAEA head urged caution over the claims made yesterday by [US neocon loonies in America or some Israeli nutjob politician who the main article is all about] and pointed out that the IAEA have all Iran's nuclear activities under constant monitoring and don't think Iran are even trying to build a bomb."
...

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ok my original remark was in reference to

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

...
Iran aren't currently building a nuke and all the material they have to build one is under 24/7 inspector/camera surveillance by the IAEA, something that is never mentioned in the western media.
...

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and i was intending to question whether you actually had access to verifiable facts that weren't being reported in the west.

The bolded remark in your last reply to me seems to support your original claim to a certain extent. The IAEA head doesn't actually come out and conclusively state that Iran isn't building a bomb as you seemed to do, but he comes reasonably close, so ok fine.

Let's put aside for the moment what Iran is actually telling people about what their intentions are. I am just a little skeptical that the IAEA can be so confident that there is nothing underhanded that is escaping their attention. Personally I believe

1. that if Iran had the ability to build a nuke, they would.
2. that if Iran had a way to do an end run around the IAEA monitoring they would do that too.
3. Israel has every reason to be nervous about this, regardless of whether or not I think they have a "right to exist".
3. there is no way way the IAEA can be absolutely certain they have everything under control. Ergo the remark: we "don't think Iran are even trying to build a bomb." This is not quite consistent with their claim that they have everything under surveillance.

---

The IAEA head has said they're not building a bomb and he doesn't think they're even planning to.

The UN nuclear watchdog chief Mohamed ElBaradei has once again highlighted the lack of evidence to prove Iran is after a nuclear bomb.

Speaking at a session of the World Economic Forum on the Middle East, ElBaradei reiterated the International Atomic Energy Agency has no evidence that Iran is seeking to develop an atomic bomb.

"We haven't seen indications or any concrete evidence that Iran is building a nuclear weapon and I've been saying that consistently for the last five years," ElBaradei asserted.

He said that the issue of Iran's nuclear standoff with the West is a problem of trust.

The IAEA boss referred to a December 3 joint assessment by 16 US spy agencies, which conceded that Tehran is not running a nuclear weapons program, and said that the US intelligence report agreed with his agency's assessment on Iran's nuclear program.

ElBaradei: Iran not after bomb

Now that's the first thing google found but I'm sure if you go to the IAEA website it's there somewhere or if you google the quote eventually some known media outlet somewhere will have reported it.

Iran have the ability to build a bomb but aren't. If they did they'd have an untested weapon with no delivery capability and no way of getting one while under sanctions. They have enough material for one bomb and it's under constant watch. The IAEA have a bunch of inspectors and cameras in Iran monitoring their entire operation constantly.

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You say that IAEA says they aren't doing it, but then you quote the IAEA as saying not that they aren't doing it, just that they haven't seen indications or concrete evidence. There's a bit of a difference. As for the Mossad, well who knows what they've found out, I'n sure they wouldn't tell "us".'

Anyways "no evidence" means either they aren't doing it or they are doing a good job at covering their tracks. Sure there are issues of trust involved. I wouldn't trust a guy like Ahmadinejad any further than I could throw him. You are free to trust him if you want.

I do believe the IAEA though. So if they say they haven't found any concrete evidence, than so be it. We agree on that much. It means they haven't found any concrete evidence. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's impossible for them to be secretly doing anything productive without uranium and the IAEA have the uranium under constant surveillance. Without the uranium, there's no way to make a bomb. It's also really difficult to do anything regarding nuclear production secretly when you've got weapons inspectors and satellites watching everything. Nuclear facilities are big things, you can't just build one without people noticing. And if they ever decided to use that uranium to build a bomb they'd have to kick the inspectors out like North Korea did, giving us six months' notice at the minimum, assuming they don't hit technical problems. And that's six months to build an untested bomb with no delivery system. The whole thing is just sensationalism.

OK well if you are saying that it's a provable fact that the IAEA has accounted for the worlds supply of Uranium, then I will have to concede this point to you. I'll even concede if it can be proven that there can't possible be any uranium in Iran that the IAEA doesn't know about. Of course, these things can't be proven.

Anyways, we don't disagree on the facts, we seem to disagree on the interpretation. Do we think it is possible that Iran might attempt to deceive and be successful at it? As has been mentioned, trust plays a role. You know where I stand on that.

As for claims of a possible world war, I see it as sabre rattling by the Russkis, but I don't think we need be overly concerned about the Russkis or the Chinese.

time to move on.

And we know all the Iranian nuclear scientists. They all went to school in the west to learn the nuke stuff and they're all vetted by our security services before they even are accepted on a course. The inspectors know them all and monitor what they're doing all the time too. We know what their nuke-qualified people are doing all the time. Any serious attempt to build something covertly we'd know about. At best they probably have the outline of a crash-building programme ready to go.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

And we know all the Iranian nuclear scientists. They all went to school in the west to learn the nuke stuff and they're all vetted by our security services before they even are accepted on a course. The inspectors know them all and monitor what they're doing all the time too. We know what their nuke-qualified people are doing all the time. Any serious attempt to build something covertly we'd know about. At best they probably have the outline of a crash-building programme ready to go.

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Because we are certain that we know all of the nuke specialists that are on the Iranian payroll?

Anyways, by "we" I assume you mean western governments by virtue of their association with the IAEA.

OK, you've made your point, I don't quite share your confidence in our ability to keep on knowing all the salient facts. But your logic based on these premises is solid.When it comes to consensus, that's as far as I can go.

:)