Dan Rafael blog: Serious talks underway for Pavlik-Williams and other tid bits

• I was told this week that serious talks have been rekindled for a fall fight between middleweight champ Kelly Pavlik and Paul Williams, with HBO making a very strong offer. The question is, will the two camps, who don't exactly get along well, be able to agree on the split? We shall see, but my fingers are crossed because it's a great fight -- certainly a lot bigger than anything else either guy can legitimately make.

David Haye runs his mouth, then just runs - ESPN

He also rips into David Haye for how he and his team have behaved.

If the fight happens, I like Williams by a solid decision. I don't see a plodding one-two puncher like Pavlik giving Williams much trouble. That said, while Williams has shown a sturdy beard in the past, Pavlik will definitely be the biggest puncher he's faced. I think his chin will remain true, but it should be a very good fight if it happens.

This is going to be a very good fight. I think Pavlik has a real good shot at beating Williams as long as he is mentally and physically prepared to walk through a hail storm of punches. I don't think Williams has the punching power to ko Pavlik and that will be the deciding factor with Pavlik winning by late round ko.

Great fight; needs to happen badly.

Pavlik one of my faves, won't lie, but he's in deep water with this kid. This fight will get ugly at times; I don't know who to pick.

Both throw alot of punches; Williams a better all around boxer but not sure at 160 he'll have the power to trouble Pavlik, which in th deep rounds could haunt him. If he does ko Kelly he really is a phenom; to have the genetics to do what he's doing.

I'm not sayin Pavlik is some MW messiah but he's no bum, like him or not. He's one dimensional; predictable, but he comes to fight and he's still, imo, one of the top 3 finishers in the sport; he hurts you you're in trouble. Pavlik should try to go for the body on Paul; but he'll have trouble catching Paul. I just don't know on this one. i'll take Pavlik just cause he's unbeaten at MW and he's the man to beat there. PW pulls this off he earned it.

i think Paul takes this now. he wont stop Pavlik but he will win a decision.

Regarding Williams punching power...after his loss to Quintana, for whatever reason, Williams started punching with much greater authority. I don't know if he just started sitting down on his punches better or if fighting at the higher weights gives him a little extra oomph, but there is a very telling difference. But whatever the case, while he still does not have one punch power, he really put a beating on both Winky and Phillips. I mean, those guys really got beat up by Paul. I don't see a KO for Williams but I think Pavlik will have to be prepared to take a beating if he wants to get close enough to Williams to eventaully put him away. I can't see Pavlik winning a decision. Williams is simply too busy to lose on the cards. He's going to have to walk through the propeller and try to wear Williams down and put him away in the late rounds. Williams' stamina and chin are so good though I just don't see it happening.

Kelly will be too strong for Williams and especially at middleweight. People think about Williams' output but Kelly himself like I've said in the past throw's upward of 100 punches a round as well. Williams is no defensive wizard like Hopkins meaning his punching is his defense. I think Kelly can take it and he will dish it. Kelly by KO.

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Originally Posted by The Fightfan

Kelly will be too strong for Williams and especially at middleweight. People think about Williams' output but Kelly himself like I've said in the past throw's upward of 100 punches a round as well. Williams is no defensive wizard like Hopkins meaning his punching is his defense. I think Kelly can take it and he will dish it. Kelly by KO.

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To beat Williams you have to be able to time your punches well. Margarito started to get into a better rythem timing his punches late in their fight, but by then it was too late. Qunitana was able to beat him, but he is a slick counter-puncher which is the style best suited to give Williams trouble. While Pavlik is generally a busy fighter, I think Williams own volume and quickness will neutralize Pavlik's output and he'll have to try and time his punch over Williams, do a bit of counterpunching. But I have never really seen Pavlik fight that way, so unless he can catch Williams and KO him and I just don't see him winning. Pavlik is a good finisher, though, so if he can get Williams hurt he can do it. But I have never seen Williams seriously hurt. Then again, Pavlik will be the best pucher he has faced, so we'll see. I think Williams wins by a fairly wide UD. It will be exciting and Pavlik will have his moments, but Williams output and stamina will be too much for Kelly to win a decision.

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

Regarding Williams punching power...after his loss to Quintana, for whatever reason, Williams started punching with much greater authority. I don't know if he just started sitting down on his punches better or if fighting at the higher weights gives him a little extra oomph, but there is a very telling difference. But whatever the case, while he still does not have one punch power, he really put a beating on both Winky and Phillips. I mean, those guys really got beat up by Paul. I don't see a KO for Williams but I think Pavlik will have to be prepared to take a beating if he wants to get close enough to Williams to eventaully put him away. I can't see Pavlik winning a decision. Williams is simply too busy to lose on the cards. He's going to have to walk through the propeller and try to wear Williams down and put him away in the late rounds. Williams' stamina and chin are so good though I just don't see it happening.

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That's the question; will the added weight show a better punch on Williams. He's shown he can punch anyways and I'm betting he will have some power up there. Which like you said will make it tough on Kelly. If the power is there I can see him ko'ing Pavlik; PW is a finisher as well. I can see it going the other way as well; Pavlik has great killer instincts and can finish quickly.

Like I said he's going to have to work hard to catch up to PW{I don't see PW wanting to trade inside or on the ropes, so he'll stay on his back foot}and Kelly needs to find a way to slow him down, i.e. body shots early but easier said than done from Pavlik who isn't fast on his feet and could end up getting tagged alot trying to play catch up to PW. PW will be similar to JT in the second Pavlik fight; though with endless stamina and throwing more. Pavlik has to get to the body imo or he will lose a decision at best. Should be interesting t see if PW does have that crazy stamina agaist a guy who is a big MW and will keep him busy all night.

Great fight; I am pumped hoping this one goes off. If Pavlik loses and depending in what fashion this could set up a nice little rivalry; or Kelly will go to AA;D

This would be a good one!

I think Williams' workrate and angles will bother Pavlik but he will feel it everytime he gets hit. I gotta go with my boy Kelly on this one.

Really dont see any other direction for Pavlik.Hes not going to 168 and otherwise would spend his time with mandatorys and Sergio Mora.I'd say this one def comes off.

Last year I saw convinced Pavlik would be too much.Too big,too straight.But Williams volume and hand speed with using his height could really give Pavlik problems.Williams really needs to stay smart,not come in with those wide punches and not hang his reachable chin out there.If he falls in and gives up his height,he could pay for it in a bad way.Pavlik may have one single gear but can crack right down the middle,time Williams in between flurries.

I'm a huge Willams fan and I despise Pavlik, but I think the Ghost takes this one. Williams is going to get hit, he always does, and Pavlik for all his shortcomings has a ton of power. Should be a great fight though, with both men's styles and workrates I could see it being FOTY material.

Pavlik by stoppage in a fight he is behind on the cards.

Sorry, but honestly, I don't know why they are even negotiating fights for Pavlik right now, when they are still legally tied to Mora.

Sergio is not going away on this one. He wants this fight bad, and Sergio is one of those guys where his pride means more to him than money. I mean he offered Forrest a "winner take all" fight for a rubber match, because he hated the way he lost, and restoring his pride meant more to him than the money, so he was willing to put his money where his mouth was. Forrest wasn't.

He will not go away quietly on this.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

Really dont see any other direction for Pavlik.Hes not going to 168 and otherwise would spend his time with mandatorys and Sergio Mora.I'd say this one def comes off.

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That's my feeling as well. Sturm is the only even marginally interesting fight for him at 160 (and I stress "marginally"). There is not anyone interesting at 154 who could move up (there has been talk of Martinez but that does nothing for me). He could move up to 168, but the super-tournament takes away all of the lucrative options there for the foreseeable future. Williams is really the only interesting fight for him right now. It has to come off.

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

If the fight happens, I like Williams by a solid decision. I don't see a plodding one-two puncher like Pavlik giving Williams much trouble. That said, while Williams has shown a sturdy beard in the past, Pavlik will definitely be the biggest puncher he's faced. I think his chin will remain true, but it should be a very good fight if it happens.

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i agree, i think Williams could pull off the W, but although his chin is good, he was wobbled a bit by Quintana in the first fight, IMO Pavlik does have the power to hurt him

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Originally Posted by Diane

Sorry, but honestly, I don't know why they are even negotiating fights for Pavlik right now, when they are still legally tied to Mora.

Sergio is not going away on this one. He wants this fight bad, and Sergio is one of those guys where his pride means more to him than money. I mean he offered Forrest a "winner take all" fight for a rubber match, because he hated the way he lost, and restoring his pride meant more to him than the money, so he was willing to put his money where his mouth was. Forrest wasn't.

He will not go away quietly on this.

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They will find away to get out of that fight. It's not even 100% clear from what I've read that it's legally binding. It's an awful fight anyway and might fail to eclipse even 100,000 buys as a pay per view.

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Originally Posted by Diane

Sorry, but honestly, I don't know why they are even negotiating fights for Pavlik right now, when they are still legally tied to Mora.

Sergio is not going away on this one. He wants this fight bad, and Sergio is one of those guys where his pride means more to him than money. I mean he offered Forrest a "winner take all" fight for a rubber match, because he hated the way he lost, and restoring his pride meant more to him than the money, so he was willing to put his money where his mouth was. Forrest wasn't.

He will not go away quietly on this.

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The viewers might though :peeker:........jk ;D. If they do have a agreed contract it will have to be sorted out.I can see Mora giving Pavlik fits but think it would boil down to fire power and durability,favoring Pavlik.

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Originally Posted by Diane

Sorry, but honestly, I don't know why they are even negotiating fights for Pavlik right now, when they are still legally tied to Mora.

Sergio is not going away on this one. He wants this fight bad, and Sergio is one of those guys where his pride means more to him than money. I mean he offered Forrest a "winner take all" fight for a rubber match, because he hated the way he lost, and restoring his pride meant more to him than the money, so he was willing to put his money where his mouth was. Forrest wasn't.

He will not go away quietly on this.

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Well that's probably because Forrest doesn't want to even risk not getting paid, which I can't blame him for. Mora can afford to lose to Forrest again, Forrest can't. The guy would be considered one of the best of the decade if he hadn't lost to 2 quite frankly b or c level fighters. That's no disrespect to them, but Forrest should've been getting himself into contention with the likes of Oscar. But I agree Pavlik should honour the contract even though I would much rather see Williams beat him, the fact is you don't sign a contract then not fulfill it.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by Diane

Sorry, but honestly, I don't know why they are even negotiating fights for Pavlik right now, when they are still legally tied to Mora.

Sergio is not going away on this one. He wants this fight bad, and Sergio is one of those guys where his pride means more to him than money. I mean he offered Forrest a "winner take all" fight for a rubber match, because he hated the way he lost, and restoring his pride meant more to him than the money, so he was willing to put his money where his mouth was. Forrest wasn't.

He will not go away quietly on this.

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Well that's probably because Forrest doesn't want to even risk not getting paid, which I can't blame him for. Mora can afford to lose to Forrest again, Forrest can't. The guy would be considered one of the best of the decade if he hadn't lost to 2 quite frankly b or c level fighters. That's no disrespect to them, but Forrest should've been getting himself into contention with the likes of Oscar. But I agree Pavlik should honour the contract even though I would much rather see Williams beat him, the fact is you don't sign a contract then not fulfill it.

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Depends on the language of the contract. Mora's team claims it says one thing, Pavlik's team another. That is such a dreadful fight, I really hope Mora's team loses. I have nothing against Mora and can't blame him for pushing for the chance, but that is just a terrible fight. Pavlik-Williams is FAR more compelling and better for boxing.

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

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Originally Posted by Diane

Sorry, but honestly, I don't know why they are even negotiating fights for Pavlik right now, when they are still legally tied to Mora.

Sergio is not going away on this one. He wants this fight bad, and Sergio is one of those guys where his pride means more to him than money. I mean he offered Forrest a "winner take all" fight for a rubber match, because he hated the way he lost, and restoring his pride meant more to him than the money, so he was willing to put his money where his mouth was. Forrest wasn't.

He will not go away quietly on this.

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They will find away to get out of that fight. It's not even 100% clear from what I've read that it's legally binding. It's an awful fight anyway and might fail to eclipse even 100,000 buys as a pay per view.

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Well I know Sergio, so I guess you can say that I get some inside information. ;)

Plus he came out last week on FNF stating that he wasn't going away, and that lawyers are involved.

Also, right around the time of the Cotto/Clottey fight, Arum proclaimed that he will have an "issue" straightened out in order to make a fight for Pavlik, probably within a week. Well it's been over a month, and that "issue" is still there. ;D

I know a lot of people don't like the fight, but Sergio has wanted to fight Pavlik since they were at the Olympic Trials together, and I would love to see him get his chance. I think his style would give Pavlik fits actually.

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Originally Posted by Diane

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

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Originally Posted by Diane

Sorry, but honestly, I don't know why they are even negotiating fights for Pavlik right now, when they are still legally tied to Mora.

Sergio is not going away on this one. He wants this fight bad, and Sergio is one of those guys where his pride means more to him than money. I mean he offered Forrest a "winner take all" fight for a rubber match, because he hated the way he lost, and restoring his pride meant more to him than the money, so he was willing to put his money where his mouth was. Forrest wasn't.

He will not go away quietly on this.

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They will find away to get out of that fight. It's not even 100% clear from what I've read that it's legally binding. It's an awful fight anyway and might fail to eclipse even 100,000 buys as a pay per view.

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Well I know Sergio, so I guess you can say that I get some inside information. ;)

Plus he came out last week on FNF stating that he wasn't going away, and that lawyers are involved.

Also, right around the time of the Cotto/Clottey fight, Arum proclaimed that he will have an "issue" straightened out in order to make a fight for Pavlik, probably within a week. Well it's been over a month, and that "issue" is still there. ;D

I know a lot of people don't like the fight, but Sergio has wanted to fight Pavlik since they were at the Olympic Trials together, and I would love to see him get his chance. I think his style would give Pavlik fits actually.

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I agree that Mora could give Pavlik some problems with his slick style, and like I said I have no problem with Mora. My problem with the fight is that it's to be done as a PPV and the contrast of styles do not figure to make for an exciting fight even if it might wind up being close. I think Arum will find a way to get out of it. Maybe some step aside money for Sergio with the promise that he gets the next shot, something like that.

Too bad this Mora fight didn't happen a couple of years ago like it was supposed to before Mora was making too many demands; if I remember correctly.

I like Mora; but tbh I keep forgetting about this contract because it's just not a fight I am keen on enough to keep remembering about. Though I think Sergio could fair well in the fight; not win but do better than expected by some. His problem is he will take punches just to lick blood off his gloves; not wise against Pavlik,

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

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Originally Posted by Diane

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

They will find away to get out of that fight. It's not even 100% clear from what I've read that it's legally binding. It's an awful fight anyway and might fail to eclipse even 100,000 buys as a pay per view.

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Well I know Sergio, so I guess you can say that I get some inside information. ;)

Plus he came out last week on FNF stating that he wasn't going away, and that lawyers are involved.

Also, right around the time of the Cotto/Clottey fight, Arum proclaimed that he will have an "issue" straightened out in order to make a fight for Pavlik, probably within a week. Well it's been over a month, and that "issue" is still there. ;D

I know a lot of people don't like the fight, but Sergio has wanted to fight Pavlik since they were at the Olympic Trials together, and I would love to see him get his chance. I think his style would give Pavlik fits actually.

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I agree that Mora could give Pavlik some problems with his slick style, and like I said I have no problem with Mora. My problem with the fight is that it's to be done as a PPV and the contrast of styles do not figure to make for an exciting fight even if it might wind up being close. I think Arum will find a way to get out of it. Maybe some step aside money for Sergio with the promise that he gets the next shot, something like that.

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Well I agree that it should not be a PPV fight, but that was Arum's doing, not Sergio's, and I'm sure he could care less if it was, as long as it happens.

And it would have be some BIG step aside money that Arum would have to put up, and I'm not sure he's willing to do that.

Well, Diane, I know Sergio is a friend of yours so you want him to get his chance, but I don't think I'm alone in saying this fight does nothing at all for me. I wouldn't pay $10 to see it on PPV, and I don't see it being very entertaining. Sergio has a chance, but he'll have to turn it into a stinker to pull it off and I have no interest in watching that.

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Originally Posted by LEGION

Too bad this Mora fight didn't happen a couple of years ago like it was supposed to before Mora was making too many demands; if I remember correctly.

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He had a deal to fight Taylor but refused to do it because it would be in Taylor's backyard.

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Originally Posted by Diane

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

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Originally Posted by Diane

Well I know Sergio, so I guess you can say that I get some inside information. ;)

Plus he came out last week on FNF stating that he wasn't going away, and that lawyers are involved.

Also, right around the time of the Cotto/Clottey fight, Arum proclaimed that he will have an "issue" straightened out in order to make a fight for Pavlik, probably within a week. Well it's been over a month, and that "issue" is still there. ;D

I know a lot of people don't like the fight, but Sergio has wanted to fight Pavlik since they were at the Olympic Trials together, and I would love to see him get his chance. I think his style would give Pavlik fits actually.

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I agree that Mora could give Pavlik some problems with his slick style, and like I said I have no problem with Mora. My problem with the fight is that it's to be done as a PPV and the contrast of styles do not figure to make for an exciting fight even if it might wind up being close. I think Arum will find a way to get out of it. Maybe some step aside money for Sergio with the promise that he gets the next shot, something like that.

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Well I agree that it should not be a PPV fight, but that was Arum's doing, not Sergio's, and I'm sure he could care less if it was, as long as it happens.

And it would have be some BIG step aside money that Arum would have to put up, and I'm not sure he's willing to do that.

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Supposedly, neither HBO nor Showtime were interested in buying the fight. So it basically got put on PPV by virtue of lack of interest.

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

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Originally Posted by LEGION

Too bad this Mora fight didn't happen a couple of years ago like it was supposed to before Mora was making too many demands; if I remember correctly.

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He had a deal to fight Taylor but refused to do it because it would be in Taylor's backyard.

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You're right of course; a big major bad on my part.:bag:

I would pay any PPV price to see Pavlik KO Mora.

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Originally Posted by RP33

I would pay any PPV price to see Pavlik KO Mora.

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That's the thing though...I think what's more likely is that Mora makes it a stinker with Pavlik chasing him around the ring and Mora trying to pot-shot like he did in the first fight with Forrest. I don't know if he would do enough to win but I see it going to the cards in a dull affair. Not a fight I have any interest in whatsoever. Hoefully, we get the Williams fight instead.

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

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Originally Posted by LEGION

Too bad this Mora fight didn't happen a couple of years ago like it was supposed to before Mora was making too many demands; if I remember correctly.

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He had a deal to fight Taylor but refused to do it because it would be in Taylor's backyard.

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That was one of the smartest things he ever did IMO. The only way he was winning that fight was by ko, which was pretty much impossible. People slagged him off (and still do) for that decision, but it led him directly to a LMW championship and legitimacy. If he had fought Taylor and lost (as he almost certainly would have) he would have immediately because completely irrelevant (even more so) and marginal; that fight would have effectively ended his career.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

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Originally Posted by LEGION

Too bad this Mora fight didn't happen a couple of years ago like it was supposed to before Mora was making too many demands; if I remember correctly.

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He had a deal to fight Taylor but refused to do it because it would be in Taylor's backyard.

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That was one of the smartest things he ever did IMO. The only way he was winning that fight was by ko, which was pretty much impossible. People slagged him off (and still do) for that decision, but it led him directly to a LMW championship and legitimacy. If he had fought Taylor and lost (as he almost certainly would have) he would have immediately because completely irrelevant (even more so) and marginal; that fight would have effectively ended his career.

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It's easy to say he was smart in hindsight, but at the time he left a shot at the undisputed middleweight title and a $1 million payday on the table with no assurances that a similar offer would ever present itself. Then he had that dreadful draw that by all rights should have ended any hopes he had of getting an important fight. He got lucky with the Forrest fight as far as I'm concerned (maybe not with his performance but definitely that it was offered).

Big Props to Rafael for calling out David Haye!!!


Here are my picks for the mentioned fights:

Williams-Pavlik....The Punisher, by KO! Pavlik has personal issues and Williams' style is awkward and his output is above average, Pavlik is going to get shook early, try to force his way back in the fight and then get put down for good with a HUGE left cross. Pavlik is done at 160 and will move up to 168....just my opinion though

Ward-Kessler...Kessler by SD, down on points knocks Ward down late and finishes strong

Abraham-Taylor...Taylor by SD (if the fight is in the US) Abraham by UD if the fight is in Germany

Dirrell-Froch....Dirrell by KO

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

He had a deal to fight Taylor but refused to do it because it would be in Taylor's backyard.

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That was one of the smartest things he ever did IMO. The only way he was winning that fight was by ko, which was pretty much impossible. People slagged him off (and still do) for that decision, but it led him directly to a LMW championship and legitimacy. If he had fought Taylor and lost (as he almost certainly would have) he would have immediately because completely irrelevant (even more so) and marginal; that fight would have effectively ended his career.

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It's easy to say he was smart in hindsight, but at the time he left a shot at the undisputed middleweight title and a $1 million payday on the table with no assurances that a similar offer would ever present itself. Then he had that dreadful draw that by all rights should have ended any hopes he had of getting an important fight. He got lucky with the Forrest fight as far as I'm concerned (maybe not with his performance but definitely that it was offered).

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It's not just smart in hindsight, it was smart at the time. Mora knew he had no way of winning that fight, he wasn't going to stop Taylor and he wasn't going to beat him convincingly enough that he could win a points decision in his backyard. He loses that fight and his career is effectively over or at least severely retarded. Was turning down 1 million dollars a gamble? Absolutely, but it was one that paid off and Mora made the right decision.

As for him getting lucky with the Forrest fight, perhaps. However, the Contender people have long shown a willingness to sell out their charges by throwing them in against champs and very good fighters looking for an easy victory. I'm sure Mora knew that.

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Originally Posted by CFH

I'm a huge Willams fan and I despise Pavlik, but I think the Ghost takes this one. Williams is going to get hit, he always does, and Pavlik for all his shortcomings has a ton of power. Should be a great fight though, with both men's styles and workrates I could see it being FOTY material.

Pavlik by stoppage in a fight he is behind on the cards.

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Why do you despise Pavlik or do you mean you just despise his style?

Williams on the cards. With his workrate, Williams is like a smaller, less-finetuned Calzaghe. The questions are: can Kelly time Pwill's flurries and can Pwill handle a KP right hand?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Big Props to Rafael for calling out David Haye!!!


Here are my picks for the mentioned fights:

Williams-Pavlik....The Punisher, by KO! Pavlik has personal issues and Williams' style is awkward and his output is above average, Pavlik is going to get shook early, try to force his way back in the fight and then get put down for good with a HUGE left cross. Pavlik is done at 160 and will move up to 168....just my opinion though

Ward-Kessler...Kessler by SD, down on points knocks Ward down late and finishes strong

Abraham-Taylor...Taylor by SD (if the fight is in the US) Abraham by UD if the fight is in Germany

Dirrell-Froch....Dirrell by KO

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Ward by SD - fight is in Oakland.
Abraham v. Taylor - tough fight to pick. AA by knockout or Taylor by decision.
Dirrell by KO? Really? Explain.

Rafael does not seem to think getting around Mora will be an issue. From his chat today:

James (Ashville, NC)




Sergio Mora has been saying Pavlik legally has to face him and he won't step aside. Could this be a problem making Pavlik-Williams?
Dan Rafael (1:41 PM)





They'll work that out I am sure. I feel bad for Mora because he does have a contract but I am pretty sure it will be resolved.

Chat: Chat with Dan Rafael - SportsNation - ESPN

He also said the fight was far from a done deal because they are far apart on what the split should be. I am a Williams fan and think he wis the better fighter, but from a financial perspective Pavlik is the champ and is the bigger draw. If he wants a big fight, he has to relize that at this point he'll have to get the short end of the stick.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

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Originally Posted by CFH

That was one of the smartest things he ever did IMO. The only way he was winning that fight was by ko, which was pretty much impossible. People slagged him off (and still do) for that decision, but it led him directly to a LMW championship and legitimacy. If he had fought Taylor and lost (as he almost certainly would have) he would have immediately because completely irrelevant (even more so) and marginal; that fight would have effectively ended his career.

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It's easy to say he was smart in hindsight, but at the time he left a shot at the undisputed middleweight title and a $1 million payday on the table with no assurances that a similar offer would ever present itself. Then he had that dreadful draw that by all rights should have ended any hopes he had of getting an important fight. He got lucky with the Forrest fight as far as I'm concerned (maybe not with his performance but definitely that it was offered).

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It's not just smart in hindsight, it was smart at the time. Mora knew he had no way of winning that fight, he wasn't going to stop Taylor and he wasn't going to beat him convincingly enough that he could win a points decision in his backyard. He loses that fight and his career is effectively over or at least severely retarded. Was turning down 1 million dollars a gamble? Absolutely, but it was one that paid off and Mora made the right decision.

As for him getting lucky with the Forrest fight, perhaps. However, the Contender people have long shown a willingness to sell out their charges by throwing them in against champs and very good fighters looking for an easy victory. I'm sure Mora knew that.

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It was dumb because Sergio was riding at the heighth of his popularity from the Contender and you have to strike while the iron is hot. He had no way of knowing if he would keep winning and remain popular enough to get another lucrative opportunity for a legit title. In fact, he had that draw against a nobody that I thought was a gift and should have been a loss, and that could have easily been the end of him. I think he got lucky with the Forrest fight, and although he won don't forget his payday was about half what he would have made against Taylor. Manfredo's loss to Calzaghe did not end his career, I doubt losing to Taylor would have hurt Mora too badly since no one thought he'd win anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by CFH

I'm a huge Willams fan and I despise Pavlik, but I think the Ghost takes this one. Williams is going to get hit, he always does, and Pavlik for all his shortcomings has a ton of power. Should be a great fight though, with both men's styles and workrates I could see it being FOTY material.

Pavlik by stoppage in a fight he is behind on the cards.

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Why do you despise Pavlik or do you mean you just despise his style?

Williams on the cards. With his workrate, Williams is like a smaller, less-finetuned Calzaghe. The questions are: can Kelly time Pwill's flurries and can Pwill handle a KP right hand?

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Pavlik has an awesome style and I really should be a fan of his, and I was a fan of his until recently. However, I loathe Jack Loew, that fat fuck runs his mouth like he's the one doing the fighting, talking shit about other fighters etc. and generally acting like a douche. I also dislike Pavlik because of his bullshit "everyman persona", that's as bit as phony as Hatton's (if not more so).

I really should like him, but I just don't.

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by ClubberLang

It's easy to say he was smart in hindsight, but at the time he left a shot at the undisputed middleweight title and a $1 million payday on the table with no assurances that a similar offer would ever present itself. Then he had that dreadful draw that by all rights should have ended any hopes he had of getting an important fight. He got lucky with the Forrest fight as far as I'm concerned (maybe not with his performance but definitely that it was offered).

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It's not just smart in hindsight, it was smart at the time. Mora knew he had no way of winning that fight, he wasn't going to stop Taylor and he wasn't going to beat him convincingly enough that he could win a points decision in his backyard. He loses that fight and his career is effectively over or at least severely retarded. Was turning down 1 million dollars a gamble? Absolutely, but it was one that paid off and Mora made the right decision.

As for him getting lucky with the Forrest fight, perhaps. However, the Contender people have long shown a willingness to sell out their charges by throwing them in against champs and very good fighters looking for an easy victory. I'm sure Mora knew that.

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It was dumb because Sergio was riding at the heighth of his popularity from the Contender and you have to strike while the iron is hot. He had no way of knowing if he would keep winning and remain popular enough to get another lucrative opportunity for a legit title. In fact, he had that draw against a nobody that I thought was a gift and should have been a loss, and that could have easily been the end of him. I think he got lucky with the Forrest fight, and although he won don't forget his payday was about half what he would have made against Taylor. Manfredo's loss to Calzaghe did not end his career, I doubt losing to Taylor would have hurt Mora too badly since no one thought he'd win anyway.

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I disagree for the reasons I stated in my last reply, but you have a valid position as well. I also think he got a gift in that fight. No sense going round and round in circles with this though.

Manfredo's loss to Calzaghe didn't end his career, but it did set him back a ways. I actually think if he hadn't been kind of screwed over by Freddie Roach he could've held a title at 154/160. He showed serious improvement after working with Roach but seemed to almost instantly regress afterwards.

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Originally Posted by RP33

I would pay any PPV price to see Pavlik KO Mora.

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That would be the exact way the fight will end and thats worth the price