Big Papi tained like the rest
Report: Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz tested positive for PEDs in 2003 - ESPN
As a Yankees fan I hate the Red Sox, but always liked David Ortiz. I thought the Mitchell report was garbage and indirectly depicted the yankees as Roid hub but of course being in kahoots with the Sox none of them was mentioned.
David Ortiz has fallen off signifigantly the past few years abd is washed up at this point in his career. The man cant field and now he cant hit couple that with no protection from Manny Ramirez. Ortiz has been exposed as a juicer too finally..
Dry eyes my asss, how about dry medicine bottle
Hey Lyle hope your proud that your 2 superstar clutch players in the WS were roided chemically enhanced disgraces:rolleyes:
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Report: Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz tested positive for PEDs in 2003 - ESPN
As a Yankees fan I hate the Red Sox, but always liked David Ortiz. I thought the Mitchell report was garbage and indirectly depicted the yankees as Roid hub but of course being in kahoots with the Sox none of them was mentioned.
David Ortiz has fallen off signifigantly the past few years abd is washed up at this point in his career. The man cant field and now he cant hit couple that with no protection from Manny Ramirez. Ortiz has been exposed as a juicer too finally..
Hey Lyle hope your proud that your 2 superstar clutch players in the WS were roided chemically enhanced disgraces:rolleyes:
please.. better than half of the team.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RP33
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Report: Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz tested positive for PEDs in 2003 - ESPN
As a Yankees fan I hate the Red Sox, but always liked David Ortiz. I thought the Mitchell report was garbage and indirectly depicted the yankees as Roid hub but of course being in kahoots with the Sox none of them was mentioned.
David Ortiz has fallen off signifigantly the past few years abd is washed up at this point in his career. The man cant field and now he cant hit couple that with no protection from Manny Ramirez. Ortiz has been exposed as a juicer too finally..
Hey Lyle hope your proud that your 2 superstar clutch players in the WS were roided chemically enhanced disgraces:rolleyes:
please.. better than half of the team.
really going to go there.. Who is the half of team?
Sheffield, Petite, Clemens Giambi? Big deal:rolleyes: Red Sox have a tainted championship and your cities 2 biggest heroes were fake
Mitchell is/was director of the Red Sox and you think he was going to implicate Ortiz and Manny? of course not!
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RP33
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Report: Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz tested positive for PEDs in 2003 - ESPN
As a Yankees fan I hate the Red Sox, but always liked David Ortiz. I thought the Mitchell report was garbage and indirectly depicted the yankees as Roid hub but of course being in kahoots with the Sox none of them was mentioned.
David Ortiz has fallen off signifigantly the past few years abd is washed up at this point in his career. The man cant field and now he cant hit couple that with no protection from Manny Ramirez. Ortiz has been exposed as a juicer too finally..
Hey Lyle hope your proud that your 2 superstar clutch players in the WS were roided chemically enhanced disgraces:rolleyes:
please.. better than half of the team.
really going to go there.. Who is the half of team?
Sheffield, Petite, Clemens Giambi? Big deal:rolleyes: Red Sox have a tainted championship and your cities 2 biggest heroes were fake
Mitchell is/was director of the Red Sox and you think he was going to implicate Ortiz and Manny? of course not!
all of what you mentioned, plus canseco, knoblauch, glenallen hill, jason grimsley..
that's 8 players that were known steroid or HGH users.. so yeah, really going to go there ;D..
i'm not defending papi or ramirez, they still cheated, but for a yankees fan to say in any way that the Sox's world series championships were tainted then i have to at least have a chuckle.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RP33
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RP33
please.. better than half of the team.
really going to go there.. Who is the half of team?
Sheffield, Petite, Clemens Giambi? Big deal:rolleyes: Red Sox have a tainted championship and your cities 2 biggest heroes were fake
Mitchell is/was director of the Red Sox and you think he was going to implicate Ortiz and Manny? of course not!
all of what you mentioned, plus
canseco, knoblauch, glenallen hill, jason grimsley..
that's 8 players that were known steroid or HGH users.. so yeah, really going to go there ;D..
i'm not defending papi or ramirez, they still cheated, but for a yankees fan to say in any way that the Sox's world series championships were tainted then i have to at least have a chuckle.
Those guys arent impact players.. Knoblauch tanked it in NY and didnt do much as well as Canseco and Hill were platoon players.
The problem I have with the Red Sox and the majority of their fans, they try so hard not to be the yankees and act all high and mighty but in reality they are no better. I mean when The mitchell report came out it was all about the Yankee players who were juiced and the Sox fans were like, not our guys. though you can see Ramirez like Bonds and Sosa was substantially beefier than he was years ago and you could see Papi though always stout was alot smaller the past 2 years and breaking down more then during his juiced run with the sox. The guy cant hit worth a lick, the powers gone and he is striking out more and is way overmatched. You know who else will be on that list soon is Garciaparra. He all of a sudden was the wlalking Disabled list one day and is still in his early 30's and has been terribly overmatched for the past 5 years now.
You just dont stop being dynamic one day especially in your late 20's unless you were helped along the way.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RP33
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
really going to go there.. Who is the half of team?
Sheffield, Petite, Clemens Giambi? Big deal:rolleyes: Red Sox have a tainted championship and your cities 2 biggest heroes were fake
Mitchell is/was director of the Red Sox and you think he was going to implicate Ortiz and Manny? of course not!
all of what you mentioned, plus
canseco, knoblauch, glenallen hill, jason grimsley..
that's 8 players that were known steroid or HGH users.. so yeah, really going to go there ;D..
i'm not defending papi or ramirez, they still cheated, but for a yankees fan to say in any way that the Sox's world series championships were tainted then i have to at least have a chuckle.
Those guys arent impact players.. Knoblauch tanked it in NY and didnt do much as well as Canseco and Hill were platoon players.
The problem I have with the Red Sox and the majority of their fans, they try so hard not to be the yankees and act all high and mighty but in reality they are no better. I mean when The mitchell report came out it was all about the Yankee players who were juiced and the Sox fans were like, not our guys. though you can see Ramirez like Bonds and Sosa was substantially beefier than he was years ago and you could see Papi though always stout was alot smaller the past 2 years and breaking down more then during his juiced run with the sox. The guy cant hit worth a lick, the powers gone and he is striking out more and is way overmatched. You know who else will be on that list soon is Garciaparra. He all of a sudden was the wlalking Disabled list one day and is still in his early 30's and has been terribly overmatched for the past 5 years now.
You just dont stop being dynamic one day especially in your late 20's unless you were helped along the way.
as i said, i don't really care about the image the sox try to portray.. two of our best players were on roids, understood.. There were PLENTY of role players those two years when we won that had a lot to do with winning the championships they won, who as of right now have not been linked to any HGH/steroid use. NOTABLY their pitching: Schilling, Beckett, Papelbon, etc..
But to downplay the yankees steroid use is'nt going to work.. and PLATOON players?!?! give me a break..
I forgot to add David Justice (HGH) to that list also..
in the 2000 season: David Justice: 20 HR's.. Glenallen Hill: 16 HR's.. Canseco missed more than half of the season that year..
Knoblauch had 17 HR's in 1998 and 18 HR's in 1999..
for Pitching: petite was 19-9 and started 32 games..
clemens was 13-8 over 32 starts..
grimsley pitched in 62 games..
these are SIGNIFICANT contributions!! they were no derek jeter but to say they were just platoon players isn't even fair to THEM..
we obviously don't know who else was on steroids or HGH but the yankees won the last bulk of their championships in the heat of the roid era, and now they haven't won in several years, and the Sox have.. Let's put it this way, even if manny and papi were on roids, as far as we know, the team as a whole was clean.. until that is proven wrong then you have to foundation to argue on.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RP33
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RP33
all of what you mentioned, plus canseco, knoblauch, glenallen hill, jason grimsley..
that's 8 players that were known steroid or HGH users.. so yeah, really going to go there ;D..
i'm not defending papi or ramirez, they still cheated, but for a yankees fan to say in any way that the Sox's world series championships were tainted then i have to at least have a chuckle.
Those guys arent impact players.. Knoblauch tanked it in NY and didnt do much as well as Canseco and Hill were platoon players.
The problem I have with the Red Sox and the majority of their fans, they try so hard not to be the yankees and act all high and mighty but in reality they are no better. I mean when The mitchell report came out it was all about the Yankee players who were juiced and the Sox fans were like, not our guys. though you can see Ramirez like Bonds and Sosa was substantially beefier than he was years ago and you could see Papi though always stout was alot smaller the past 2 years and breaking down more then during his juiced run with the sox. The guy cant hit worth a lick, the powers gone and he is striking out more and is way overmatched. You know who else will be on that list soon is Garciaparra. He all of a sudden was the wlalking Disabled list one day and is still in his early 30's and has been terribly overmatched for the past 5 years now.
You just dont stop being dynamic one day especially in your late 20's unless you were helped along the way.
as i said, i don't really care about the image the sox try to portray.. two of our best players were on roids, understood.. There were PLENTY of role players those two years when we won that had a lot to do with winning the championships they won, who as of right now have not been linked to any HGH/steroid use. NOTABLY their pitching: Schilling, Beckett, Papelbon, etc..
But to downplay the yankees steroid use is'nt going to work.. and PLATOON players?!?! give me a break..
I forgot to add David Justice (HGH) to that list also..
in the 2000 season: David Justice: 20 HR's.. Glenallen Hill: 16 HR's.. Canseco missed more than half of the season that year..
Knoblauch had 17 HR's in 1998 and 18 HR's in 1999..
for Pitching: petite was 19-9 and started 32 games..
clemens was 13-8 over 32 starts..
grimsley pitched in 62 games..
these are SIGNIFICANT contributions!! they were no derek jeter but to say they were just platoon players isn't even fair to THEM..
we obviously don't know who else was on steroids or HGH but the yankees won the last bulk of their championships in the heat of the roid era, and now they haven't won in several years, and the Sox have.. Let's put it this way, even if manny and papi were on roids, as far as we know, the team as a whole was clean.. until that is proven wrong then you have to foundation to argue on.
I am not trying to cover over the transgressions of the yankees, my point is Grimsley, Canseco, Justice, Knoblauch were not the face of the franchise. When I walk into a Dunkin Donuts I didn't see Jason Grimsley I saw David Ortiz.
The Red Sox are and were no better thats my point, you cant go around pointing fingers at us anymore when your most notable players were chemically enhanced.
I could care less about it all anyway, I wanted to see homeruns and strikeouts like the rest of us. I got what I wanted, the game is the best in the world it will always be whether its the dead ball era, the steroid era, I loved 80's ball just as much as the 90's and 2000. I can understand why these guys did it and I hold no grudge.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RP33
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Those guys arent impact players.. Knoblauch tanked it in NY and didnt do much as well as Canseco and Hill were platoon players.
The problem I have with the Red Sox and the majority of their fans, they try so hard not to be the yankees and act all high and mighty but in reality they are no better. I mean when The mitchell report came out it was all about the Yankee players who were juiced and the Sox fans were like, not our guys. though you can see Ramirez like Bonds and Sosa was substantially beefier than he was years ago and you could see Papi though always stout was alot smaller the past 2 years and breaking down more then during his juiced run with the sox. The guy cant hit worth a lick, the powers gone and he is striking out more and is way overmatched. You know who else will be on that list soon is Garciaparra. He all of a sudden was the wlalking Disabled list one day and is still in his early 30's and has been terribly overmatched for the past 5 years now.
You just dont stop being dynamic one day especially in your late 20's unless you were helped along the way.
as i said, i don't really care about the image the sox try to portray.. two of our best players were on roids, understood.. There were PLENTY of role players those two years when we won that had a lot to do with winning the championships they won, who as of right now have not been linked to any HGH/steroid use. NOTABLY their pitching: Schilling, Beckett, Papelbon, etc..
But to downplay the yankees steroid use is'nt going to work.. and PLATOON players?!?! give me a break..
I forgot to add David Justice (HGH) to that list also..
in the 2000 season: David Justice: 20 HR's.. Glenallen Hill: 16 HR's.. Canseco missed more than half of the season that year..
Knoblauch had 17 HR's in 1998 and 18 HR's in 1999..
for Pitching: petite was 19-9 and started 32 games..
clemens was 13-8 over 32 starts..
grimsley pitched in 62 games..
these are SIGNIFICANT contributions!! they were no derek jeter but to say they were just platoon players isn't even fair to THEM..
we obviously don't know who else was on steroids or HGH but the yankees won the last bulk of their championships in the heat of the roid era, and now they haven't won in several years, and the Sox have.. Let's put it this way, even if manny and papi were on roids, as far as we know, the team as a whole was clean.. until that is proven wrong then you have to foundation to argue on.
I am not trying to cover over the transgressions of the yankees, my point is Grimsley, Canseco, Justice, Knoblauch were not the face of the franchise. When I walk into a Dunkin Donuts I didn't see Jason Grimsley I saw David Ortiz.
The Red Sox are and were no better thats my point, you cant go around pointing fingers at us anymore when your most notable players were chemically enhanced.
I could care less about it all anyway, I wanted to see homeruns and strikeouts like the rest of us. I got what I wanted, the game is the best in the world it will always be whether its the dead ball era, the steroid era, I loved 80's ball just as much as the 90's and 2000. I can understand why these guys did it and I hold no grudge.
yeah, i gotcha.. i never pointed fingers, i could really care less.. i mean, they weren't testing back then, so whether they juiced and got away with it then great.. good for them.. I still hate the Yankees organization and i still think cheaters when i think back to the late 90's but hey, it's in the record books. I'm not a "fanatic" like some idiotic Red Sox fans are.. i actually played baseball most of my life and enjoy the sport, and as much as the steroid thing has tainted the sport to an extent, i'm not calling into radio stations sobbing..
i'm proud of the championships that we won, and for all of the fans who thought the sox were purists, they can fuck off, that's fine.. but in my eyes it doesn't take ANYTHING away from their accomplishments after what the yankees did, after what mcgwire did, after what sosa did, bonds etc..
still proud, still hate the yankees. :)
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
I didn't play baseball much after the age of 8 or 9 and only watch a handful of games a year (playoffs and maybe 1 live Astros game). So I am in no way a purist but I want entertainment. I want every player juiced to the gills. I want to see 150 MPH fastballs and 1000 yd homeruns. I've never really cared about the steroid use or the stats. Sure Bonds etc was juicing but you can bet that more often than not so was the opposite pitcher.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
I am a huge Red Sox fan, worst, I've been a huge Ortiz and Ramirez fan (stopped to like Manny with his shit attitude and continued to like Big Papi). Honestly, I have difficulties to believe that Boston's big dog can be juiced, not that it is impossible neither improbable, just... I liked the guy and he looked genuine. I would love to know more though before sentencing him, know what he allegedly took and stuff but one thing for sure, this report looks reliable in may way, not that no mistakes are possible but te report is plausible and credible, I just hope from the bottom of my heart that the Ortiz case is a mistake but I am making no believe and I know that it could unfortunately be real... and real sad.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Hey Lyle hope your proud that your 2 superstar clutch players in the WS were roided chemically enhanced disgraces:rolleyes:
I was wondering when this was going to find it's way onto the site.
Yeah, you're SOOOO right JT, it's a damn shame that the clean players on the 2004 Yankees didn't get a shot to win the World Series, guys like: Gary Sheffield, Jason Giambi, Alex Rodriguez, Kevin Brown. It's not like the Sox were playing other clean teams, I think like Peter Gammons said, every Champion since 1989 probably had at least 1 juicer on their team.
This is just the era we live in...sure I'm disappointed in the results, but hell I wouldn't be shocked if any of the following current and former players used illegal substances: Ricky Henderson (he played with Big Mac and Jose and he was the FIRST power lead off hitter), Cal Ripkin (he's good buddies with Brady "I'll hit 50 HR's one year and never more than 20 any other year" Anderson), Mariano Rivera, Pedro Martinez, Albert Pujols, Evan Longoria, Albert Belle, Frank Thomas, Matt Williams, etc....I mean everything says guys are guilty these days, if they are injury prone like Griffey Jr., if they never get injured like Cal, if they are great as they get older like Nolan Ryan, if they start hitting better for seemingly no reason like Papi did then of course there will be questions and sometimes the answers aren't going to be all that great.
All Papi can do right now is just focus on winning and do it clean from now on.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
If Mitchell had the list he would have implicated A-Rod too. Or maybe he had the list and couldn't implicate anybody because it wasn't really a test. Either way, he's a serious guy, he negotiated peace agreements in Northern Ireland of all things, I seriously doubt he's gonna sully his legacy just by ignoring Red Sox names on a positive test list.
Anyway I've gotten cynical about the whole thing, the year they came back from 3-1 to beat the Yankees and win the World Series they just had a better team of cheaters than the Yankees did.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
Well if you're looking for somebody to blame, blame BUD SELIG, he turned a blind eye to this because he wanted the fans to come back to baseball after the strike. He could have ended it any time he wanted to....also the MLBPA shares blame because they dragged their feet to get testing in the MLB.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VanChilds
I didn't play baseball much after the age of 8 or 9 and only watch a handful of games a year (playoffs and maybe 1 live Astros game). So I am in no way a purist but I want entertainment. I want every player juiced to the gills. I want to see 150 MPH fastballs and 1000 yd homeruns. I've never really cared about the steroid use or the stats. Sure Bonds etc was juicing but you can bet that more often than not so was the opposite pitcher.
I'm more or less with you on this one. I'm not too concerned about the roids. I wanna be entertained.
One thing I do object to is the lame ass stories and pathetic lying these guys resort to when they do get nabbed. Especially when they try to take down other players with them. Dude, you got nabbed, take your lumps like a man. Take superstar Alex Rodriguez "Oh we didn't really know what we were doing, it was just me and my cousin." :rolleyes: He'll always be tainted now. Not that I care, but he did in fact try to argue that he was clean when he wasn't. So he ain't any better than any of the druggies.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VanChilds
I didn't play baseball much after the age of 8 or 9 and only watch a handful of games a year (playoffs and maybe 1 live Astros game). So I am in no way a purist but I want entertainment. I want every player juiced to the gills. I want to see 150 MPH fastballs and 1000 yd homeruns. I've never really cared about the steroid use or the stats. Sure Bonds etc was juicing but you can bet that more often than not so was the opposite pitcher.
this would be ideal, everyone juicing and a super-baseball game takes form, haha..
of course there is the whole entertainment thing, but players have worked too hard to get to this point, and then be overshadowed by guys who are on the juice.. One player may not get a contract by a team because they would rather sign David ortiz.. well that would suck if i were that player and didn't juice, and this guy had all his best years when he was on it.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
There are a couple of factors people must consider when they start scapegoating the players in these situations.
#1 MONEY, let's not be dumb here money is a big issue and if you're fighting to make a MLB team from a AAA team then we're talking a difference at MINIMUM is around $270,000. Play a couple years in the bigs and you're set for life.
#2 Education, aside from boxing, baseball is a sport where the majority of top teir athletes never even went to college and perhaps aren't equipped to make the best of choices. And hell when the team doctor or even your own strength coach gives you vitamins or "supplements" these guys probably didn't ask too many questions about them.
I think eventually people will come to grips with people cheating in baseball, it's not the first or the last time it will happen. We've gone through, the all-white/all-black eras, the greenie era (those were amphetimines), the steroid era, and any number of gambling issues....the game is still the same, and if a guy like Gaylord Perry can make it into the Hall of Fame then hell there is a chance for Bonds, McGwire, and maybe even Jose Canseco......ok well maybe not Jose
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
There are a couple of factors people must consider when they start scapegoating the players in these situations.
#1 MONEY, let's not be dumb here money is a big issue and if you're fighting to make a MLB team from a AAA team then we're talking a difference at MINIMUM is around $270,000. Play a couple years in the bigs and you're set for life.
#2 Education, aside from boxing, baseball is a sport where the majority of top teir athletes never even went to college and perhaps aren't equipped to make the best of choices. And hell when the team doctor or even your own strength coach gives you vitamins or "supplements" these guys probably didn't ask too many questions about them.
I think eventually people will come to grips with people cheating in baseball, it's not the first or the last time it will happen. We've gone through, the all-white/all-black eras, the greenie era (those were amphetimines), the steroid era, and any number of gambling issues....the game is still the same, and if a guy like Gaylord Perry can make it into the Hall of Fame then hell there is a chance for Bonds, McGwire, and maybe even Jose Canseco......ok well maybe not Jose
Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that you accept the story that these guys actually might not know that they were taking performance enhancing drugs? Sounds like you are just making someone else, ie the trainer, the scapegoat.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
I'm saying that not many baseball players are going to get into MENSA.....and especially considering language barriers and youth and everything, I wouldn't doubt that a lot of guys took steroids and either didn't know it or were just too trusting of some people around them...like for instance Gary Sheffield who claimed to UNKNOWINGLY use steroids given to him by Barry Bonds' trainer. I wasn't trying to scapegoat the trainer, just the education these guys have....it ain't the greatest
The money is the big influence though, some poor guy that defected from Cuba has a chance to make at least $300,000 a year in the MLB and live in America, shit, I would load up on roids so damn fast my own head would spin!
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
fair enough, I can't argue that, just disagree. Guys like Sheffield aren't that stupid. Nor are the trainers. Feed players illegal drugs without their knowledge? I doubt it. Personally, I just think the players would happily lie through their teeth and let someone else take the fall in order to protect their precious images and their multimillion dollar contracts.
Re: Big Papi tained like the rest
They could either do that or see results and just decide not to ask questions so as to maintain their innocence
