How Does a Fighter Lose His Chin?

an interesting question on this boxing blog.Any ideas?
not just for this particular fight, but in general, what makes a fighter lose his punch resistance?

The Random Boxing Blog

I watched Pacquaio vs. Hatton again. What a dramatic fight that was.

The funny thing is: people in the post-fight analysis kept referring to how Hatton can no longer absorb a punch. Whilst it's true that in the Tsyzu fight, Hatton did walk through some bombs, the idea that a fighter's jaw can suddenly desert him is a strange one. Normally a fighter's chin is something referred to us a natural born gift; something you can't train or "put muscles on".

So how is it that it can suddenly become more china-like? Or put another way: could Ricky Hatton in 2005 really take a better shot than Ricky Hatton in 2009?

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Originally Posted by Vintage

an interesting question on this boxing blog.Any ideas?
not just for this particular fight, but in general, what makes a fighter lose his punch resistance?

The Random Boxing Blog

I watched Pacquaio vs. Hatton again. What a dramatic fight that was.

The funny thing is: people in the post-fight analysis kept referring to how Hatton can no longer absorb a punch. Whilst it's true that in the Tsyzu fight, Hatton did walk through some bombs, the idea that a fighter's jaw can suddenly desert him is a strange one. Normally a fighter's chin is something referred to us a natural born gift; something you can't train or "put muscles on".

So how is it that it can suddenly become more china-like? Or put another way: could Ricky Hatton in 2005 really take a better shot than Ricky Hatton in 2009?

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There was nothing dramatic about that fight. It was like watching Berbick-Tyson, but at 140 pounds.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by Vintage

an interesting question on this boxing blog.Any ideas?
not just for this particular fight, but in general, what makes a fighter lose his punch resistance?

The Random Boxing Blog

I watched Pacquaio vs. Hatton again. What a dramatic fight that was.

The funny thing is: people in the post-fight analysis kept referring to how Hatton can no longer absorb a punch. Whilst it's true that in the Tsyzu fight, Hatton did walk through some bombs, the idea that a fighter's jaw can suddenly desert him is a strange one. Normally a fighter's chin is something referred to us a natural born gift; something you can't train or "put muscles on".

So how is it that it can suddenly become more china-like? Or put another way: could Ricky Hatton in 2005 really take a better shot than Ricky Hatton in 2009?

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There was nothing dramatic about that fight. It was like watching Berbick-Tyson, but at 140 pounds.

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It was a dramatic fight.

this is a good question, one that i cant answer tho, sorry!

Personnaly i think the more you get hit the weaker your chin becomes imagine the amount of times Hatton got hit throughout his career it has to take some toll on his chin his brawler style just made it become more vonrable. Thats what i think.:)

But the punch that hit Hatton could have KO'd anyone at 140 and probably 147!

I don't think getting hit repeatedly in the face is particularly healthy. The accumulation of that year in year out and Hattons notorious liberties with conditioning and his and love of pies and ale has eventually lead to a state where the ability to take shots has been diminished somewhat.

Gatti is another one that could take a fair shot and on a repeated basis, but towards the end he was getting bowled over by the likes of Baldomir and Gomez who were not big punchers at all.

The body gets old and the there gets a point where the chin fails more than it used to.

There must be something in it, as we hear it said about boxers quite often.

Also, ray mercer comes to mind. He once had a granite chin. But with him, his knockout losses might had more to do with being too old and lacking any ambition

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Originally Posted by Vintage

There must be something in it, as we hear it said about boxers quite often.

Also, ray mercer comes to mind. He once had a granite chin. But with him, his knockout losses might had more to do with being too old and lacking any ambition

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yeah remember holyfield dropping him to one knee, he took sum good shots from lennox earlier in his career

Im of the thought that once you have been out cold unless you are of very stern stuff ;or you rebuild up your beard again with some very hard sparring and serious testing in slow stages:You could have a problem.

Other wise for many the original spark out can pave the way to you going out to it a touch easier the next time around and so on and so forth. Our cells have a memory as does the shut down process and also the fight or flight process . If it helped us to survive a bad situation once, its not unheard of in some situations (Not always fighting) to automatically and subconsciously head for the shut down mode the next time around.

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Originally Posted by Andre

Im of the thought that once you have been out cold unless you are of very stern stuff ;or you rebuild up your beard again with some very hard sparring and serious testing in slow stages:You could have a problem.

Other wise for many the original spark out can pave the way to you going out to it a touch easier the next time around and so on and so forth. Our cells have a memory as does the shut down process and also the fight or flight process . If it helped us to survive a bad situation once, its not unheard of in some situations (Not always fighting) to automatically and subconsciously head for the shut down mode the next time around.

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It's an interesting point. Of course everything slows down as we age but I do wonder how much mental toughness comes in to play.

It is often a situation of condition, as any drain on weight will essentially leave a body weaker then when it is running optimally. We tend to look at the chin, and not the other many determining factors, conditioning, age, and as Andre has suggested reoccurance and it's effects, as Missy suggests, mental toughness. etc.

While fighters often either do, or don't have a chin, this being established usually early in their career, there are still many things they can do physically to increase it's durability. So therefore also, when a fighters 'loses their chin' again, many variable can also come into play.

Barring any weight drain issues for individual fights that create dangers by lowering the water that slows down the rapid acceleration from a punch which sneds your brain crashing against the inside of a skull.... Some fighters can get concussed from punches that don't cause knock downs or leave them on rubber legs and never know it.

Everytime you get a concussion, you become more susceptible to getting the next one. It takes less and less to suffer a concussion after each successive concussion. With sufficient rest and time off, you can heal up and feel better. It still doesnt take any of the milage off that you have put on your brain. Its the reason many athletes (like nfl Qb's) wind up with post concussion syndrome. PCS makes it feel like you have a concussion all the time. Most noted is usually the balance problems/dizzyness/light headed feeling, constant fatigue and headaches. Eventually with enough rest, this goes away also but its truly a dangerous sign that your brain has reached its limit of abuse.

So even the punches that don't do a fighter in right away, eventually will.

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Originally Posted by J_Undisputed

Barring any weight drain issues for individual fights that create dangers by lowering the water that slows down the rapid acceleration from a punch which sneds your brain crashing against the inside of a skull.... Some fighters can get concussed from punches that don't cause knock downs or leave them on rubber legs and never know it.

Everytime you get a concussion, you become more susceptible to getting the next one. It takes less and less to suffer a concussion after each successive concussion. With sufficient rest and time off, you can heal up and feel better. It still doesnt take any of the milage off that you have put on your brain. Its the reason many athletes (like nfl Qb's) wind up with post concussion syndrome. PCS makes it feel like you have a concussion all the time. Most noted is usually the balance problems/dizzyness/light headed feeling, constant fatigue and headaches. Eventually with enough rest, this goes away also but its truly a dangerous sign that your brain has reached its limit of abuse.

So even the punches that don't do a fighter in right away, eventually will.

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This pretty much says it all. Also as others have mentioned, draining weight makes it difficult, particularly as it becomes harder to make the weight because of a lack of conditioning (e.g. Hatton). Also the mental factor of being KO'd once, especially when you believe yourself to have an indestructible chin, can lead to weaknesses in that area in the future. Here's hoping Margarito has to deal with that. But the above post is the best on here at explaining how a chin goes.

Hatton didn't lose his chin; he's got like 3 now.

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Originally Posted by Andre

Im of the thought that once you have been out cold unless you are of very stern stuff ;or you rebuild up your beard again with some very hard sparring and serious testing in slow stages:You could have a problem.

Other wise for many the original spark out can pave the way to you going out to it a touch easier the next time around and so on and so forth. Our cells have a memory as does the shut down process and also the fight or flight process . If it helped us to survive a bad situation once, its not unheard of in some situations (Not always fighting) to automatically and subconsciously head for the shut down mode the next time around.

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That's interesting stuff and I think it's basically like that, like a primal 'play dead' shut down feature. I think seeing the punch coming has a LOT to do with how that works out too.

Good question Vintage

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Originally Posted by Vintage

There must be something in it, as we hear it said about boxers quite often.

Also, ray mercer comes to mind. He once had a granite chin. But with him, his knockout losses might had more to do with being too old and lacking any ambition

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Well, we've heard it said about Hatton enough times,that's for sure. The evidence is not conclusive though. Maybe it sounds better than being "totally outboxed and outpunched" And yeah, that punch would have KO'd a few people.

But I suppose that conditioning might have something to do with it. Perhaps we can learn something from the story of Eric Lindros who suffered repeatedly from concussions throughout his hockey career. Just bad luck? Did he become physically more vulnerable to KO as time went on? I'm not sure that was ever proven as a reason. Anyone who saw that hit from Kirk Stevens would know you didn't have to be prone to concussions to be KO's from that one.

If you get punched in the head thousands of times over the course of a career's fighting and sparring then it's inevitably going to have a cumulative effect. Add on the physical drain of making the same weight over a period of years when you're getting naturally bigger, bad living habits away from the ring etc. and it's understandable that your general physical condition will deteriorate from what it once was. If you've had a few good batterings and a couple of sparkings over a bunch of tough fights then you're not going to be what you once were.

I think with Hatton particularly, the effect of getting KO'd by Mayweather affected him badly mentally. He went into that fight talking about how his chin could take all Tszyu had to give, so Mayweather would have nothing. He also made a point of him not being a proper welterweight (funny how things change :rolleyes:) when compared to Collazo. I think then getting KTFO by a guy who he thought he could walk through (not that he learned from that ;D) had an effect that he was getting buzzed off the slightest punch as a mental thing. I remember even Paulie managed to hit him with a punch that looked like it hurt him. So I wouldn't be surprised if there is a mental aspect to it.

Last time I looked on the Hatton site it looked like four chins ;D

I do think J. Undisputed post sums it all up TBH.

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Vintage

There must be something in it, as we hear it said about boxers quite often.

Also, ray mercer comes to mind. He once had a granite chin. But with him, his knockout losses might had more to do with being too old and lacking any ambition

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Well, we've heard it said about Hatton enough times,that's for sure. The evidence is not conclusive though. Maybe it sounds better than being "totally outboxed and outpunched" And yeah, that punch would have KO'd a few people.

But I suppose that conditioning might have something to do with it. Perhaps we can learn something from the story of Eric Lindros who suffered repeatedly from concussions throughout his hockey career. Just bad luck? Did he become physically more vulnerable to KO as time went on? I'm not sure that was ever proven as a reason. Anyone who saw that hit from Kirk Stevens would know you didn't have to be prone to concussions to be KO's from that one.

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I swear Ricky Hatton is like the 140 pound version of Mike Tyson in that he has the most fans with all sort of excuses on this and that. This might sound really crazy, but maybe just maybe, the other guy (Pacman) was better than him? I know it's a shocking statement isn't it?

simple, relying on your chin too much, this is what happened with Morales, he chose to rely on his chin instead of his boxing skills most the time, and well his resistance was worn down, same can be said about Margarito, Hatton, and McCullough

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Vintage

There must be something in it, as we hear it said about boxers quite often.

Also, ray mercer comes to mind. He once had a granite chin. But with him, his knockout losses might had more to do with being too old and lacking any ambition

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Well, we've heard it said about Hatton enough times,that's for sure. The evidence is not conclusive though. Maybe it sounds better than being "totally outboxed and outpunched" And yeah, that punch would have KO'd a few people.

But I suppose that conditioning might have something to do with it. Perhaps we can learn something from the story of Eric Lindros who suffered repeatedly from concussions throughout his hockey career. Just bad luck? Did he become physically more vulnerable to KO as time went on? I'm not sure that was ever proven as a reason. Anyone who saw that hit from Kirk Stevens would know you didn't have to be prone to concussions to be KO's from that one.

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I swear Ricky Hatton is like the 140 pound version of Mike Tyson in that he has the most fans with all sort of excuses on this and that. This might sound really crazy, but maybe just maybe, the other guy (Pacman) was better than him? I know it's a shocking statement isn't it?

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I wish you guys would just see that Hatton is a more skilled and well rounded fighter than Pac man. He can beat all types of fighters. Pacquiao is garbage. He can only beat white people and old men. His ethnic KO percentage sucks and he's small. Also I heard his weener is really really small and Hatton's is huge.

So if you guys want to back the guy with the small wang, go ahead. But I am sticking wiht my guns. Hatton ATG.

Oh yeah and in response to the thread..

I think a lot of this has to do with "rolling with the punches." Mosley, Campbell, and BHop do it surprisingly well for their age. The punches seem to "slide" off of them. This can be increasingly difficult with age as your split second reaction gets worse and worse. A flying fist can do much more damage to a stationary target!

I really like the stuff about the concussions. Look at troy Aikman after someone "broke the seal" on concussions for him it was back to back to back. He seems to have his whits about him while commentating.

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Originally Posted by Andre

Im of the thought that once you have been out cold unless you are of very stern stuff ;or you rebuild up your beard again with some very hard sparring and serious testing in slow stages:You could have a problem.

Other wise for many the original spark out can pave the way to you going out to it a touch easier the next time around and so on and so forth. Our cells have a memory as does the shut down process and also the fight or flight process . If it helped us to survive a bad situation once, its not unheard of in some situations (Not always fighting) to automatically and subconsciously head for the shut down mode the next time around.

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Pretty much how I was always described it...After a severe trauma the body installs a self safety so to speak.....

Some guys can take abuse all their lives and never have that one big moment where they are damaged enough to have the body do this....some always have it...

In the end your body knows what is best for you and when its time to shut off it does

I think once you have been truely knocked out the memory (and fear) is always there. Deep in the subconscious, you know that you are vulnurable, and I think the mindset of the fighter changes. This coupled with getting older, I think some of that edge is lost. And I do agree the body installs a "safety switch" that prevents future damage.

If a person has never been knocked out, it's a strange response for the body. The body dosent know what to do. After several times, it may become routine.

i dont no the exact science behind the whole punch resistance thing, but i think its just wear and tear over the years of getting tagged, there is no way hatton could keep taking the bombs he did like he did in tyszu fight, i actually think the tyszu fight was his most damaging fight, but back then he was fresh not many miles on the clock,i think that the tyszu fight took alot out of ricky, it must of done, he was getting tagged harder in that fight than in the mayweather,collazo or pacman fights,but he couldnt take there shots, imagine ricky of today trying to walk thru the shots that he did against tyszu back in 05, :tombstone: hatton

One way is by being concussed as in Maskiev. Another is through constantly dehydrating and messing with your diet as in Ricky. In my opinion, once it happens, it will repeat itself more often. Leon Spinks got iced by Gerrie Coetzee and then suffreed 7 or 8 more icings during the rest of his craeer. When Cobb's time came, he was bounced up and down the canvas like a yo yo by big Dee Collier, but in actuality, he had been decked the fight before by Eddie Gregg. It happens.

Think mentality plays a big factor as well.Its easy to go down,much harder to get up...a guy might become used to being hurt/dropped...almost except it more easily once it happens.Have always thought relying on "a great chin" can get a guy into heaps of trouble,and in some cases its not a compliment.

It's the punch you don't see coming that rocks you the most. I'd wager that fighters that are skilled in seeing the punches coming tend to take punches better than most.

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Originally Posted by mattboxingfan

Personnaly i think the more you get hit the weaker your chin becomes imagine the amount of times Hatton got hit throughout his career it has to take some toll on his chin his brawler style just made it become more vonrable. Thats what i think.:)

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I think it is 50 percent psychological and 50 mental as one boxing joker might say (Tex Cobb comes to mind both as a quote maker and an example of a fighter who suddenly caves in to a nobody after taking bombs from Shavers, Holmes and Norton).

Psychologically the fighter probably just has no heart in taking so much punishment any more. Mentally, as in the brain's ability to absorb the punishment of bouncing around inside the skull, just isn't there any more either. Like any other part of the body, the more damage there is to it, the less chance of resistance to further pain there is.

There isn't an exact answer but there are a lot of variables that people don't tend to talk about.

I'll start with Hatton. It's a misconception that he used to have a great chin. He's been hurt several times in his career. Even a fair few times beforew he came close to crossing the Atlantic. Eamonn Magee, Vince Phillips, Ben Tackie and even Gilbert Quiros almost ten years ago hurt him pretty badly. Then there was Luis Collazo, Mayweather, Juan Lazcano and then Manny. The problem is, he looked the most hurt against Mayweather, Collazo and Manny so it's easy to say his punch resistance has gone. Like i said earlier it's not necessarily the case. Those 3 fighters throw combinations at great speed and Hatton has never had an asnwer for it. I've said it a few times before, but he got away with when he was younger because he was supposed to be facing guys that don't quite have what it takes to follow up when he gets hurt. Quiros, Lazcano, Phillips, Tackie and to an extent Tsyzu don't throw and land with the speed, regularity and accuracy to take advantage of Hatton when they have had him in trouble. Tszyu landed a few very good single shots but nothing like what Mayweather, Collazo and Manny did.

Sometimes the match-making isn't as hell bent on making the fighter look good as it is when he's an up and coming prospect. I'm pretty sure if you'd have put Hatton in against the speed and accuracy Mayweather, Pac and Collazo had, he would have had the same trouble.