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Given lack ofd activity, cherry picking, catch weight fights, PPV, mega purses, 24-7, etc,. it seems to me the sport we all love has become more of a buisness in which only the top of the pyramid can exploit.
Haye and PBF seem to be examples.
What do you think? :confused:
It's been this way for a decade or so now, and since the advent of having televisions in homes it's been slowly heading in that direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
If you subscribe to Milton Friedman's ideology of free markets this is the inevitable result of exclusive private contracts.
OK so what do you want,fighters just to show up and fight each other with no contracts. There were waaaaaay more politics before the 70's rather then after. The only reason we hear so much about the stuff you mentioned is because we are here on a Wednesday where there are no fights, all we have to talk about is some of the business stuff you mentioned.
This is a bit ridiculous imo.
I didn't say it was bad or wrong, just inevitable.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
Was talking about just the original question. It's 75% business because they only fight on 25% of the days in a week. I guess I just don't get the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepI didn't say it was bad or wrong, just inevitable.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
not at all..
there is a business aspect to every sport, but we're are still seeing good fights and the best fighters fight the best fighters (mostly)..
if there was one governing body, or league or something to that extent, then there would be less business negotiations, but i don't see that happening any time soon..
boxing is too different from other sports as far as BUSINESS goes..
If I understand correctly, and holmcall please correct me if I'm wrong........ He is saying there is a very small pool of fighters that control a majority of what happens in boxing, a case of the rich staying rich.Quote:
Originally Posted by amatWas talking about just the original question. It's 75% business because they only fight on 25% of the days in a week. I guess I just don't get the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepI didn't say it was bad or wrong, just inevitable.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
I've often imagined in my head how a boxing league would work. And while it would have it's benefits, there's no way it would work long term.Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33
I think it's more like 100% business. When was it not?
How much influence did the mob have in the good old days? How many fixed fights have there been? How many horseshoes in gloves?
The best only fight the best when the MONEY is right.
As James Toney said - "you don't play boxing" ;)
(Ouma stop rolling your eyes.. i can't help repeating myself. Fact.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepIf I understand correctly, and holmcall please correct me if I'm wrong........ He is saying there is a very small pool of fighters that control a majority of what happens in boxing, a case of the rich staying rich.Quote:
Originally Posted by amatWas talking about just the original question. It's 75% business because they only fight on 25% of the days in a week. I guess I just don't get the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
Yep, that plus lack of activity.
I'm not disagreeing with your points, but if boxing is all business, what about other pro sports? Same?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Of course it is. Try and collect sports cards these days they can't even put actual jerseys on the guys anymore they switch teams so much.There's no loyalty to the any of these sports...ask these guys to play or fight for free and see how much they "love" the sport they play. It's all about the cash and you know what.... i don't blame them. Pbf and floyd were used as good examples but they aren't doing anything different than anyone else. Margo was down to fight anyone yes..but with loaded gloves, pac excites the masses fighting people floyd has already beaten and no one has a problem so for one guy it's the greatest thing ever and for others it's beating over the hill guys anyhow, Look at where ricky hatton stands right now, how many of his fans appreciate all the hard work and ass whoopins the guy took, not very many. Before there were people would bear his child if asked (some guys too) now say his name and ........ ! The main fan these guys should care about is themselves first, then all of us later. It's not the individual guys it's sports as a whole. For the money that is at stake for some of these guys especially given how hard times are i don't blame them. I don't like it but it's easy to sit here and say i'd do this and i'd do that, i'd fight this guy then this one. Yea right. When it's all said and done reguardless of the sport what's been made more important, winning a title or belt or whatever for a bunch of fans and owners who won't give a crap about you when you cant talk or pay your medical bills or taking care of yourself and your family as best as possible. These guys being ALLOWED to cherry pick is the problem, not that they do it. Both tasks being equal seems silly not to milk as much cash as you can out of whatever you do in life.....lord knows you're gonna need it. I bet the family of vernon when those bills come will wish he did. A year or so after this tradgedy dies down ask the vipers family how many fans are taking up the slack for his family and the special needs kids he helped. Then see how many of those collectors care who he fought or how many belts he got. Try to hand them one for payment and see what is most important in sports. Sad but true. Sorry if this is all jumbled and what not i'm writing on my wife's phone while i'm with a boring customer.
No I don't think other pro sports are the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcallI'm not disagreeing with your points, but if boxing is all business, what about other pro sports? Same?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
The best in the world would still play their chosen sport without the huge money rewards - Tiger Woods would still play golf, Federer would still play Tennis, Ronaldo would play football (soccer) etc...
Millions of people PLAY these sports everyday for the love of it.
Pro fighters NEED the incentive of big riches/money. You don't put your life on the line for the fun of it. From the best to the worst they don't do it for free, for the love of fighting, getting hurt (well apart from the odd nutter ;)).
No offense to ZelenoffQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterNo I don't think other pro sports are the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcallI'm not disagreeing with your points, but if boxing is all business, what about other pro sports? Same?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
The best in the world would still play their chosen sport without the huge money rewards - Tiger Woods would still play golf, Federer would still play Tennis, Ronaldo would play football (soccer) etc...
Millions of people PLAY these sports everyday for the love of it.
Pro fighters NEED the incentive of big riches/money. You don't put your life on the line for the fun of it. From the best to the worst they don't do it for free, for the love of fighting, getting hurt (well apart from the odd nutter ;)).
;DQuote:
Originally Posted by killersheepNo offense to ZelenoffQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterNo I don't think other pro sports are the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
The best in the world would still play their chosen sport without the huge money rewards - Tiger Woods would still play golf, Federer would still play Tennis, Ronaldo would play football (soccer) etc...
Millions of people PLAY these sports everyday for the love of it.
Pro fighters NEED the incentive of big riches/money. You don't put your life on the line for the fun of it. From the best to the worst they don't do it for free, for the love of fighting, getting hurt (well apart from the odd nutter ;)).
When did it become 25% sport? That's a big jump from zero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterNo I don't think other pro sports are the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcallI'm not disagreeing with your points, but if boxing is all business, what about other pro sports? Same?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
The best in the world would still play their chosen sport without the huge money rewards - Tiger Woods would still play golf, Federer would still play Tennis, Ronaldo would play football (soccer) etc...
Millions of people PLAY these sports everyday for the love of it.
Pro fighters NEED the incentive of big riches/money. You don't put your life on the line for the fun of it. From the best to the worst they don't do it for free, for the love of fighting, getting hurt (well apart from the odd nutter ;)).
Good stuff!
Good postings Fenster. Boxing is different from any other sport. In any other sport participants get to compete in maybe thousands of matches, games or events over the course of their careers.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterNo I don't think other pro sports are the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcallI'm not disagreeing with your points, but if boxing is all business, what about other pro sports? Same?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
The best in the world would still play their chosen sport without the huge money rewards - Tiger Woods would still play golf, Federer would still play Tennis, Ronaldo would play football (soccer) etc...
Millions of people PLAY these sports everyday for the love of it.
Pro fighters NEED the incentive of big riches/money. You don't put your life on the line for the fun of it. From the best to the worst they don't do it for free, for the love of fighting, getting hurt (well apart from the odd nutter ;)).
In boxing a fighter may only compete 30-40 times at the pro level, and only a handful of elite fighters will fight past 50 fights.
That's their ENTIRE career. How do they have time to fight in leagues like in other sports?
When a top boxer can fight maybe 3 or 4 times a year he wants those fights to be meaningful and above all well paid.
It's not like tennis or golf where they can enter dozens of events a year and lose badly in many of them with no ill effect.
Every fight matters, and so it will always be more political and a business than other sports.
Good post back.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboGood postings Fenster. Boxing is different from any other sport. In any other sport participants get to compete in maybe thousands of matches, games or events over the course of their careers.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterNo I don't think other pro sports are the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
The best in the world would still play their chosen sport without the huge money rewards - Tiger Woods would still play golf, Federer would still play Tennis, Ronaldo would play football (soccer) etc...
Millions of people PLAY these sports everyday for the love of it.
Pro fighters NEED the incentive of big riches/money. You don't put your life on the line for the fun of it. From the best to the worst they don't do it for free, for the love of fighting, getting hurt (well apart from the odd nutter ;)).
In boxing a fighter may only compete 30-40 times at the pro level, and only a handful of elite fighters will fight past 50 fights.
That's their ENTIRE career. How do they have time to fight in leagues like in other sports?
When a top boxer can fight maybe 3 or 4 times a year he wants those fights to be meaningful and above all well paid.
It's not like tennis or golf where they can enter dozens of events a year and lose badly in many of them with no ill effect.
Every fight matters, and so it will always be more political and a business than other sports.
Boxing really can't be compared with other major sports but naturally it is.
Because fighters generally only ever meet once, when a close contest happens, it's basically impossible to establish the better fighter. To get a true reflection you would need them to meet like 10 times. Give them a chance to exploit different tactics etc..
This is the reason almost every boxing match is tainted with excuses before and after - too old, too green, too small, too fat, past his prime, weight-drained, corrupt judges, dodgy ref, bad training camp, flu, wrong socks...excuses, excuses, excuses.
This exchange is giving me some great grist for an article I will soon write. Great insights here. :appl::appl:Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterGood post back.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboGood postings Fenster. Boxing is different from any other sport. In any other sport participants get to compete in maybe thousands of matches, games or events over the course of their careers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
In boxing a fighter may only compete 30-40 times at the pro level, and only a handful of elite fighters will fight past 50 fights.
That's their ENTIRE career. How do they have time to fight in leagues like in other sports?
When a top boxer can fight maybe 3 or 4 times a year he wants those fights to be meaningful and above all well paid.
It's not like tennis or golf where they can enter dozens of events a year and lose badly in many of them with no ill effect.
Every fight matters, and so it will always be more political and a business than other sports.
Boxing really can't be compared with other major sports but naturally it is.
Because fighters generally only ever meet once, when a close contest happens, it's basically impossible to establish the better fighter. To get a true reflection you would need them to meet like 10 times. Give them a chance to exploit different tactics etc..
This is the reason almost every boxing match is tainted with excuses before and after - too old, too green, too small, too fat, past his prime, weight-drained, corrupt judges, dodgy ref, bad training camp, flu, wrong socks...excuses, excuses, excuses.
Frankly dating back to the 1880s it has been this way. John L. Sullivan drue the color line, played political games to get the best price to put his title on the line. I think Joe Gans was forced to come under the lightweight limit a few pounds for the first Battling Nelson fight. And talk about cherry picking Tommy Burns knocked out a guy in one round in defense of the heavyweight title, then took the guy on the road with him around the world and defended against him twice more. Bill Squires was his name I believe. Nothing new to the sweet science.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
Well, this is what I put together borrowing heavily from some of the great posts in this thread:
The Business of Boxing
By holmcall
You don't play boxing
--James Toney
We need to police our sport and show that as an industry we won't tolerate what has been business as usual anymore… We will change this business…There will be boxing reform
--Dan Goosen..
Welcome to the boxing’s world of business. Or shall we say to the business of boxing? I’m afraid that boxing these days has become a business more than a battle between two warriors. Boxing is no longer the traditional way of determining the best boxer on the earth but a mix of both business and boxing per se.
--Rico Navarro, The Freeman) Updated July 05, 2009
Few activities, much less sports, have what is known as a sleazy underbelly. Unfortunately, boxing is one of them. From New York mobster Frankie Carbo to the IBF scandal which involved a 32-count indictment to Resto-Collins to the recent “Plastergate” affair and everything in between, boxing has reeled on the ropes and often has fallen from grace. However, though bruised and battered, it has somehow managed to survive.
Like other kinds of businesses, there have been calls for reform, and some changes have been put in place. However, reform really has little or nothing to do with the fact boxing is 95% business and maybe 5% sport.
For one thing, boxers would not engage without adequate compensation. When you put your life on the line, you don’t do it for the fun of the sport. My guess is that the star athletes in other sports might still play their chosen sport without the mega purses. Surely, TigerWoods would still compete in golf and Federer would play tennis. Millions of people play most of the sports because they love the game, but only a fraction would even think about engaging in boxing for minimal or no compensation. The risks are too high. “You don’t play boxing.” It's not like tennis or golf where players can enter dozens of events a year and lose badly in many of them with no ill effects.
Moreover, in most other athletic endeavors, participants get to compete in perhaps thousands of matches, games, and/or events over the course of their careers. These days, a boxer may only compete 30-40 times at the pro level and only a handful take part in over fifty bouts. When a top boxer can fight maybe 3 or 4 times a year, he wants those fights to be as meaningful as possible. Every fight matters because it might be the last. Football (the U.S. kind) might be similar, given the severity of injuries. One of the things I liked about "Baby" Joe Mesi was his willingness to fight, but his demise is indicative of what this article is all about; namely, that today, a boxer needs to get those decent paydays in the bank (not literally) and get out with his health intact. Joe might not have.
When a great fighter like Floyd Mayweather Jr, fights once in 2004, twice in 2006, twice in 2007, and presumably once in 2009 against carefully selected opposition that is designed to maximize monetary return, that is cherry picking at its very best. It’s also business at its very best. Mega purses, hype like HBO’S 24-7, PPV, cherry picking, and catch weight matches simply encourage (or perhaps are an inherent part of) this kind of activity. Those at the top of the pyramid are best positioned to exploit it.
Oscar De La Hoya fought once in 2002, twice in 2003, twice in 2004, zero times in 2005, once in 2006, once in 2007, and twice in 2008 in fights that optimized his ability to earn mega purses, but resulted in a 5-4 record.
David Haye has not fought since November 2008 and likely will fight only once in 2009. Manny Pacquiao, though far more active, has made catch weights his thing, albeit a successful one. Edwin “Dinamita” Valero has slowed down his level of activity considerably,, though “Juanma,”Juan Manuel Lopez, remains fairly active.
The fact that Wlad Klitschko has fought 56 times is the exception, not the rule. Heck, even Hasim Rahman engaged in four fights in 2007, and the Beast from the East, Nikolay Valuev, has been reasonably active, but just reasonably.
Fighters like Hector Camacho Senior (87 fights), James Toney (82 fights), Gerry Penalosa (63 fights), and Yori Boy Campas (107 fights) have been the exception. While there are a number of boxers in the U.K. with over 100 fights, these are simply designated opponents (i.e., designated losers) who also lose over 100 fights but are seldom stopped. As just one example, Karl “Plug” Taylor has a plug ugly 16-128-7 record and has gone 0-12-1 mark in 2009 alone. But these kinds of fighters represent an anomaly and are on the very bottom of the boxing pyramid.
The Upshot
Boxing is all about entertainment and, as such, is a deadly serious business which often entails fatalities and horrific long term injuries. Back in the day, fighters fought almost monthly to earn a living. They don’t do that any more except in the early parts of their careers. Once they are established as contenders, the frequency of activity now falls off considerably. For example, this will happen to the very active Danny Jacobs and also to Sherif Boger (12-0) who has fought eight times already in 2009. This is the pattern that has developed over the past many years and likely will continue for the foreseeable future.
As a fan, I have become inured to the fact my favorite fighters will engage sparingly and will try to get the biggest bang for their buck (maybe that should be the other way around). Only those on the mid to bottom of the pyramid will be active and many will be fodder for those who rise to become elite. And that’s because boxing is a business where money rules and where the promoters like Top Rank and Golden Boy Promotions call the shots.
As Rico Navarro points out in the afore referenced article entitled, In control of the business of boxing: “The funny thing about all this is that boxing’s alphabet collection of ruling bodies has now become secondary players in the sport. Slowly but surely, boxers are now fighting for the biggest paycheck offered by promoters instead of the world championships being paraded by the WBC, WBA, IBF and WBO…”