Rocky Marciano: a schiester?

I remember watching a documentary on the Chuvalo/Ali fight, where Chuvalo talked about Marciano being brought in as a "mentor figure" for Chuvalo, and Rocky exploiting him and taking a bunch of money from him.

And just recently I borrowed Bret Hart's book from a friend to read on a roadtrip. There is a story about Bret's father, Stu, flying Marciano in as a "special guest referee" for one of his wrestling events and Rocky intentionally screwing him over. From the book...

"I'd learn years later that Marciano was a horrible cheapskate; when he'd left town he intentionally misled Stu into writing him two cheques, each for the whole fee. Even knowing how badly my dad needed the money, he cashed them both. Despite my dads attempts to get him to send the money back, he never did. About a year later, Marciano died in a plane crash. My mom didn't shed any tears."

Its kind of disappointing hearing one of the sports all-time greats and supposedly most classy champs of all time acting like this outside of the ring.

Rocky was very money conscious maybe to the point of being miserly

Who cares? Everyone looks after their own interests...you could say the same about any number of promoters or fighters.

I think this goes well beyond simply being a bit miserly & looking after his own interests. If those either of those 2 stories are true, (ie I'd like to see some proof) then I lose any respect for Marciano, that is just being a bastard & a thief. If Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacquiao was discovered to have done this, we'd be up in arms. Just because promoters like Don King & Bob Arum are thieving bastards doesn't make it ok for Marciano.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

I think this goes well beyond simply being a bit miserly & looking after his own interests. If those either of those 2 stories are true, (ie I'd like to see some proof) then I lose any respect for Marciano, that is just being a bastard & a thief. If Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacquiao was discovered to have done this, we'd be up in arms. Just because promoters like Don King & Bob Arum are thieving bastards doesn't make it ok for Marciano.

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I agree, this goes above and beyond just being money conscious, this is stealing.

There is no proof besides word of mouth, but watch "The Last Round: Chuvalo vs Ali", or check out the Bret Hart book. Hard to prove, as these instances happened well over 40 years ago, but I doubt these guys (Especially Chuvalo) would incriminate such a beloved guy like Marciano if it wasn't true.

To me its just kinda disappointing. All us sports fans build these guys up in our minds, and in most cases the real people are huge disappointments.

Sheister is an offensive word used for Jewish lawyers, Im pretty sure Rocky was neither.

It's also spelled shyster. And it would be well advised not to talk about this in Brockton, MA.

:fighting0043gi5::fighting0043gi5::fighting0043gi5 :

Rocky Marciano was and is the greatest Heavyweight Champion ever.

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Originally Posted by holmcall

It's also spelled shyster. And it would be well advised not to talk about this in Brockton, MA.

:fighting0043gi5::fighting0043gi5::fighting0043gi5 :

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lol im from MA and Id have to agree, badmouthing Rocky around here is almost certain death lol

:smilie_whisper: Watch him closer next time you see an old fight he punched allot with the thin side of his gloves where there was no padding.

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Originally Posted by Andre

:smilie_whisper: Watch him closer next time you see an old fight he punched allot with the thin side of his gloves where there was no padding.

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Yeah. I noticed that too, Andre. Rocky'd turn his fists upside down and club his opponents with the side of his gloves.

Anyways if Rocky had any demons, they'd definitely be made out of cash. It was always on his mind, and he was crazy about it. He'd hide it, rarely accept checks (preferring cash), and it could make him a mean sonuvabitch to deal with at times.

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Originally Posted by Slowmotion426

Rocky Marciano was and is the greatest Heavyweight Champion ever.

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You mean overrated:confused:

Marciano was extremely fortunate to fight in the era he did, I cant fault him for it because he beat whomever they put in front of him but none the less extremely weak.. He had defenses against guys with horrible records.

Beat an old faded Louis, who would have cleaned him up in his prime.

Holyfield

Tyson

Ali

Holmes

Lewis

Frazier

Foreman

Norton

Michael Spinks

Ike Ibeabuchi

David Tua

Both the Klitschkos

Would have destroyed him and I mean destroy

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by Slowmotion426

Rocky Marciano was and is the greatest Heavyweight Champion ever.

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You mean overrated:confused:

Marciano was extremely fortunate to fight in the era he did, I cant fault him for it because he beat whomever they put in front of him but none the less extremely weak.. He had defenses against guys with horrible records.

Beat an old faded Louis, who would have cleaned him up in his prime.

Holyfield

Tyson

Ali

Holmes

Lewis

Frazier

Foreman

Norton

Both the Klitschkos

Would have destroyed him and I mean destroy

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Jersey Joe almost beat him and he was an old old man. The jersey Joe that fought Louis would have beaten Marciano he was very very fortunate. What gets me is that people call mike Tyson overrated and say he came up in a weak division yet they say Marciano is the greatest heavyweight champ?

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Originally Posted by Majesty

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by Slowmotion426

Rocky Marciano was and is the greatest Heavyweight Champion ever.

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You mean overrated:confused:

Marciano was extremely fortunate to fight in the era he did, I cant fault him for it because he beat whomever they put in front of him but none the less extremely weak.. He had defenses against guys with horrible records.

Beat an old faded Louis, who would have cleaned him up in his prime.

Holyfield

Tyson

Ali

Holmes

Lewis

Frazier

Foreman

Norton

Both the Klitschkos

Would have destroyed him and I mean destroy

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Jersey Joe almost beat him and he was an old old man. The jersey Joe that fought Louis would have beaten Marciano he was very very fortunate. What gets me is that people call mike Tyson overrated and say he came up in a weak division yet they say Marciano is the greatest heavyweight champ?

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EErrragh!! :banghead::banghead:

Rocky came from a poor background and it is a well known fact that he was prudent with his money. He died on a private plane ride saving him buying a ticket which cost him his life. Some of his money has not been found that he stashed. That was his nature, cannot hate him for being that way.

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by Majesty

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

You mean overrated:confused:

Marciano was extremely fortunate to fight in the era he did, I cant fault him for it because he beat whomever they put in front of him but none the less extremely weak.. He had defenses against guys with horrible records.

Beat an old faded Louis, who would have cleaned him up in his prime.

Holyfield

Tyson

Ali

Holmes

Lewis

Frazier

Foreman

Norton

Jones jr

Both the Klitschkos

Would have destroyed him and I mean destroy

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Jersey Joe almost beat him and he was an old old man. The jersey Joe that fought Louis would have beaten Marciano he was very very fortunate. What gets me is that people call mike Tyson overrated and say he came up in a weak division yet they say Marciano is the greatest heavyweight champ?

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EErrragh!! :banghead::banghead:

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Cmon, Marciano couldnt box a lick.. Again he beat everyone in front of him, but there was nothing except an old Walcott, Louis and Moore

Would someone care to defend Marciano based on my list?

I mean really, people worship him but in essence how good was he and how would he matchup against a more skilled talent pool... I understand he had insane cardio and iron will, but he was slow and unrefined and would get crushed by most top 5 heavies dating back to the 70's.

I can even see a guy like Haye disposing of him.. How do you suppose he would fair against Dwight Muhhamed Qawi?

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Originally Posted by Master

Rocky came from a poor background and it is a well known fact that he was prudent with his money. He died on a private plane ride saving him buying a ticket which cost him his life. Some of his money has not been found that he stashed. That was his nature, cannot hate him for being that way.

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Well, except if he did what's alleged here, that goes well beyond being prudent with his money. Bernard Hopkins is prudent with his money, however, if he did some shit that's basically theft, people would call him on it not let some nostalgic image cloud it. Ignoring Marciano's questionable legacy (it is interesting that some who claim him as the greatest HW are more than happy to claim the likes of PBF & ODLH cherry-picked), behaving like this isn't acceptable whoever you are, whether you're a world-class boxer or someone who sits on the couch all day doing fuck all. It's still being a greedy, manipulative dickhead

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by Majesty

Jersey Joe almost beat him and he was an old old man. The jersey Joe that fought Louis would have beaten Marciano he was very very fortunate. What gets me is that people call mike Tyson overrated and say he came up in a weak division yet they say Marciano is the greatest heavyweight champ?

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EErrragh!! :banghead::banghead:

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Cmon, Marciano couldnt box a lick.. Again he beat everyone in front of him, but there was nothing except an old Walcott, Louis and Moore

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LaStarza, Savold, Vingo, Layne, etc :banghead::banghead: aargh. Today, he would be fighting as a light heavy or cruiser and that's where the copmarisons should be made based on relativity, IMO. Otherwise, we engage in generational prejudice. He beat all 49 who were put in front oof him. Surley, that does not warrant the degree of hostility of some of the posts.

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by holmcall

EErrragh!! :banghead::banghead:

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Cmon, Marciano couldnt box a lick.. Again he beat everyone in front of him, but there was nothing except an old Walcott, Louis and Moore

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LaStarza, Savold, Vingo, Layne, etc :banghead::banghead: aargh. Today, he would be fighting as a light heavy or cruiser and that's where the copmarisons should be made based on relativity, IMO. Otherwise, we engage in generational prejudice. He beat all 49 who were put in front oof him. Surley, that does not warrant the degree of hostility of some of the posts.

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LaStarza beat him & was robbed because one of the most ridiculous rulings in the history of the sport, although I give him credit for the 2nd win though. Savold was about as shot as a fighter could be at that point. Vingo was little more than a young prospect who had been pro only 18 months or something when he faced Marciano & was overmatched. Layne was a credible win, however, in truth none of these guys were elite fighters. It's like claiming Tyson as the greatest & then using Pinklon Thomas & Carl Williams as evidence of his solid opposition

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Originally Posted by Slowmotion426

Rocky Marciano was and is the greatest Heavyweight Champion ever.

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He was lucky to have missed Liston by a few years, he would have been Knocked out inside 2 rounds by the bear!

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by holmcall

EErrragh!! :banghead::banghead:

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Cmon, Marciano couldnt box a lick.. Again he beat everyone in front of him, but there was nothing except an old Walcott, Louis and Moore

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LaStarza, Savold, Vingo, Layne, etc :banghead::banghead: aargh. Today, he would be fighting as a light heavy or cruiser and that's where the copmarisons should be made based on relativity, IMO. Otherwise, we engage in generational prejudice. He beat all 49 who were put in front oof him. Surley, that does not warrant the degree of hostility of some of the posts.

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No hostility, Marciano was overrated and a product of a weak era..

I named 8 heavyweight Champs past and present, excluding Liston who would have dismembered him that were better and would have moudered him;D

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

Cmon, Marciano couldnt box a lick.. Again he beat everyone in front of him, but there was nothing except an old Walcott, Louis and Moore

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LaStarza, Savold, Vingo, Layne, etc :banghead::banghead: aargh. Today, he would be fighting as a light heavy or cruiser and that's where the copmarisons should be made based on relativity, IMO. Otherwise, we engage in generational prejudice. He beat all 49 who were put in front oof him. Surley, that does not warrant the degree of hostility of some of the posts.

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No hostility, Marciano was overrated and a product of a weak era..

I named 8 heavyweight Champs past and present, excluding Liston who would have dismembered him that were better and would have moudered him;D

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:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

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Originally Posted by Slowmotion426

Rocky Marciano was and is the greatest Heavyweight Champion ever.

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He was lucky to have missed Liston by a few years, he would have been Knocked out inside 2 rounds by the bear!

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Rocky must have been very tempted to get 50 wins but his age and poor back was the reason he did not try one more. The closest he came was when Johansson KO ed Patterson, but even then he knew he was too old. Leave the great legacy and man alone.

The fact is Rocky Marciano fought everyone, he needed to fight and avoided no one. You can't blame Rocky Marciano for the era not being like the 70's, he beat every man infront of him and thats all counts to me. Plus to the people saying Rocky Marciano isn't skilled.

Well doesn't that mean he done brilliantly well, then for not being skilled ? 49-0 and being one of the top 10 Heavyweights of all time for not being skilled ? just makes Rocky Marciano look that much better.

I'm not going by 2nd hand accounts about Marciano's character being sleazy like that. One thing for sure is that the man had tremendous heart and beat everyone that he faced. And for a guy supposedly having no skills that's one hell of an achievement to go undefeated in your career.

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Originally Posted by Master

Rocky came from a poor background and it is a well known fact that he was prudent with his money. He died on a private plane ride saving him buying a ticket which cost him his life. Some of his money has not been found that he stashed. That was his nature, cannot hate him for being that way.

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Yeah but once again this isn't being a grinch, this is stealing/cheating.

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Originally Posted by Slowmotion426

Rocky Marciano was and is the greatest Heavyweight Champion ever.

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I doubt it. Just because he retired undefeated doesn't mean he was the greatest. Calzaghe retired unbeaten but there are many other lightheavy's who probably would have beaten him. Moore and Bob Foster come to mind.

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

Cmon, Marciano couldnt box a lick.. Again he beat everyone in front of him, but there was nothing except an old Walcott, Louis and Moore

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LaStarza, Savold, Vingo, Layne, etc :banghead::banghead: aargh. Today, he would be fighting as a light heavy or cruiser and that's where the copmarisons should be made based on relativity, IMO. Otherwise, we engage in generational prejudice. He beat all 49 who were put in front oof him. Surley, that does not warrant the degree of hostility of some of the posts.

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No hostility, Marciano was overrated and a product of a weak era..

I named 8 heavyweight Champs past and present, excluding Liston who would have dismembered him that were better and would have moudered him;D

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If you don't retract, I will forward your posts to Brockton, MA and then :foruml10gc5: :fighting0043gi5: :foruml10gc5: :fighting0043gi5: ;D

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by holmcall

LaStarza, Savold, Vingo, Layne, etc :banghead::banghead: aargh. Today, he would be fighting as a light heavy or cruiser and that's where the copmarisons should be made based on relativity, IMO. Otherwise, we engage in generational prejudice. He beat all 49 who were put in front oof him. Surley, that does not warrant the degree of hostility of some of the posts.

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No hostility, Marciano was overrated and a product of a weak era..

I named 8 heavyweight Champs past and present, excluding Liston who would have dismembered him that were better and would have moudered him;D

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If you don't retract, I will forward your posts to Brockton, MA and then :foruml10gc5: :fighting0043gi5: :foruml10gc5: :fighting0043gi5: ;D

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Not really interested in that crap dude.. The facts are the facts. Out of that list name me one guy that Marciano could have beaten..

Even a 40 year old version of Foreman would have caved his face in

Like Lucifer the great said, his undefeated streak dosent impress me, because the opposition was extremely weak, if a champion defended against a guy with 40 losses you guys would be calling for his head.

Rocky isint even the best fighter to come out of Brockton.. Marvin Hagler has that distinction

Read the posts above about generational prejudice and relativity. Of course a cruiser or light heavy could not beat a guy who out weighed him by 40 pounds of was 6'5''.

And btw, DUDE, I could care less what "crap" your are concerned with. I don't do hate; I do boxing.

:pissing:

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by holmcall

EErrragh!! :banghead::banghead:

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Cmon, Marciano couldnt box a lick.. Again he beat everyone in front of him, but there was nothing except an old Walcott, Louis and Moore

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LaStarza, Savold, Vingo, Layne, etc :banghead::banghead: aargh. Today, he would be fighting as a light heavy or cruiser and that's where the copmarisons should be made based on relativity, IMO. Otherwise, we engage in generational prejudice. He beat all 49 who were put in front oof him. Surley, that does not warrant the degree of hostility of some of the posts.

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Plus ten!!! if he was a full sized heavy weight it would have been a completely different story. He should be compared to light heavies and cruisers as you said.

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Originally Posted by Stander

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Originally Posted by holmcall

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

Cmon, Marciano couldnt box a lick.. Again he beat everyone in front of him, but there was nothing except an old Walcott, Louis and Moore

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LaStarza, Savold, Vingo, Layne, etc :banghead::banghead: aargh. Today, he would be fighting as a light heavy or cruiser and that's where the copmarisons should be made based on relativity, IMO. Otherwise, we engage in generational prejudice. He beat all 49 who were put in front oof him. Surley, that does not warrant the degree of hostility of some of the posts.

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Plus ten!!! if he was a full sized heavy weight it would have been a completely different story. He should be compared to light heavies and cruisers as you said.

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Why people throw the word GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT OF ALL TIME around.. He wasnt, Ali, Louis, Holmes, Lewis, Tyson etc were all better

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by Stander

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Originally Posted by holmcall

LaStarza, Savold, Vingo, Layne, etc :banghead::banghead: aargh. Today, he would be fighting as a light heavy or cruiser and that's where the copmarisons should be made based on relativity, IMO. Otherwise, we engage in generational prejudice. He beat all 49 who were put in front oof him. Surley, that does not warrant the degree of hostility of some of the posts.

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Plus ten!!! if he was a full sized heavy weight it would have been a completely different story. He should be compared to light heavies and cruisers as you said.

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Why people throw the word GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT OF ALL TIME around.. He wasnt, Ali, Louis, Holmes, Lewis, Tyson etc were all better

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well with Louis Marciano knocked him out. So even if they fought earlier Louis was out boxed by Billy conn and down against Jimmy Braddock. I think marciano had a punchers chance with him. I don't know if Louis belongs in that list. if the larry holmes of 1982 fought the Tyson of 1988 Holmes would be the victor. I'm not really sure who the greatest heavyweight of all time was. I think it is era relevant. Marciano was the greatest of his day no doubt. There is no bigger fan of the Cus d'amato school of boxing than me. However, Tyson was good when the guy was standing right in front of him and scared of him. Joe Frazier, that was a warrior. A prime George foreman with a 45 year old foremans heart was another guy that would be extremely hard to beat.

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Originally Posted by Stander

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by Stander

Plus ten!!! if he was a full sized heavy weight it would have been a completely different story. He should be compared to light heavies and cruisers as you said.

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Why people throw the word GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT OF ALL TIME around.. He wasnt, Ali, Louis, Holmes, Lewis, Tyson etc were all better

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well with Louis Marciano knocked him out. So even if they fought earlier Louis was out boxed by Billy conn and down against Jimmy Braddock. I think marciano had a punchers chance with him. I don't know if Louis belongs in that list. if the larry holmes of 1982 fought the Tyson of 1988 Holmes would be the victor. I'm not really sure who the greatest heavyweight of all time was. I think it is era relevant. Marciano was the greatest of his day no doubt. There is no bigger fan of the Cus d'amato school of boxing than me. However, Tyson was good when the guy was standing right in front of him and scared of him. Joe Frazier, that was a warrior. A prime George foreman with a 45 year old foremans heart was another guy that would be extremely hard to beat.

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I have started a new thread on this. See above

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

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Originally Posted by Slowmotion426

Rocky Marciano was and is the greatest Heavyweight Champion ever.

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He was lucky to have missed Liston by a few years, he would have been Knocked out inside 2 rounds by the bear!

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Woulda, coulda, shoulda...all you Marciano haters are missing the fact that he retired undefeated as Heavyweight champion.

Now where is your undefeated Heavyweight, woulda, shoulda, coulda?

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Originally Posted by Slowmotion426

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

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Originally Posted by Slowmotion426

Rocky Marciano was and is the greatest Heavyweight Champion ever.

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He was lucky to have missed Liston by a few years, he would have been Knocked out inside 2 rounds by the bear!

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Woulda, coulda, shoulda...all you Marciano haters are missing the fact that he retired undefeated as Heavyweight champion.

Now where is your undefeated Heavyweight, woulda, shoulda, coulda?

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Nevermind, there is no cure for nuthuggeritis:rolleyes:

I never understood the whole "he retired undefeated, so therefore he's the greatest" thing. Going 49-0, even if it wasn't against great compedition, is impressive as hell.

But does that mean Sven Ottke is one of the best of all time? If Valuev would have retired after beating McCline, with a comparable record of 46-0 and 14 years of boxing under his belt, would he be considered even in the top 20 of all time?

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

I never understood the whole "he retired undefeated, so therefore he's the greatest" thing. Going 49-0, even if it wasn't against great compedition, is impressive as hell.

But does that mean Sven Ottke is one of the best of all time? If Valuev would have retired after beating McCline, with a comparable record of 46-0 and 14 years of boxing under his belt, would he be considered even in the top 20 of all time?

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Agreed.

If you have :action: German blood then Spen Okkte is the best in the world.

If you have an Italian background :gossip: "ehhh A Marciano" was the best heavweight....fuk youse!

if you are Welsh :sheep: some bloke from down there is undefeated too :-) .



They are all top champions who went a real long way in the sport whatever the circumstances are, respect for all of them.
Its usually only other peoples national pride or love of another boxer getting in the way of history; pulling strips off these fighters or building them up even further than they deserve, its two sides of the same coin.