Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking any boxing matchup between Jones Jr and Silva is a complete farce of a fight, but it also hihglights the unconscious arrogance of the boxing world's mindset, and how they arn't yet tuned in to the new reality.
Mixed martial arts, is where the best practictioners of ALL fighting styles meet to put their strengths against each other.
We have Ju Jitsu masters like BJ Penn, Juda stars like Lyoto Machida and wrestlers like Brock Lesnar all figting in mixed martial arts against the best.
Boxing is a martial art just like any other, but its stars seem to think that they can take on an MMA star in their OWN limited battlefield of boxing.
It's ridiculous frankly.
Brock Lesnar didn't challenge Randy Couture to a wrestling contest and Machida didn't try and get the best in the UFC to fight with him in a judo fight, no they all fight with each allowed to practice their own fight style, it's the clash of styles, which martial art is the best, who is the best fighter in the world, a great and lofty challenge imo.
But boxers who talk about MMA always want to bring the MMA star into boxing when it should be the other way around.
Take your boxing into the Octagon and pit it against another's Ju Jitsu, wrestling or Muay Thia.
It annoys me that they claim to be the best athletes in the world, the best fighters in the world but they arn't willing to back that up and fight in a mixed martial arts event where they can match their own fighting art against the fighting art of anther.
Forcing Silva to box is like saying you are going to fight one on one with a rottweiler, both unarmed, certainly a dangerous fight for a man, but then in the rules stipulate the rotweiler must be muzzled or have its teeth removed.
It's not really the same thing, in fact I reckon even I could put up a good fight against a rottweiler that was muzzled, after all what is it going to do, trample me to death?
Anyway it annoys me. I know the boxing world still sees itself as the only legitimate form of professional combat sport but eventually that will change and maybe then we might even see boxers entering the MMA world and putting their own martial art against the martial arts of other great fighters there.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
MMA was great at first because it included lots of styles, however MMA is almost a style in itself these days.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Anderson Silva called Roy out, he's the one who brought this up originally and has talked repeatedly how its one of his dreams to "box" Roy Jones Jr. As far as I know they've never even talked about it being an MMA fight, how would it make sense for Anderson Silva to call out Roy Jones for an MMA fight?
"Forcing Silva to box"
:confused: There is no forcing here. Far from it.
Anderson Silva: "Maybe in the future I can make a boxing match happen, not against Fedor but against Roy Jones Jr. Actually, I'm waiting for that fight."
This is a very strange argument you're making Bilbo.
Even as it regards to your general argument, you hear more about MMA guys wanting to test their boxing skills against boxers (Silva, Nick Diaz, etc.) then you hear boxers calling MMA guys out for boxing matches.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kel
MMA was great at first because it included lots of styles, however MMA is almost a style in itself these days.
I agree with this strongly, at first it was like ok this guy is Tae Kwon Do and this guy is Judo. Now it's simply Strikes and the ground game.
Sure certain fighters do certain things better than others, but the MMA is becoming more of a HMA (Homogenized Martial Arts) sport.
I don't see why it's a farce for old man Jones to challenge as a strictly a boxing match clearly his legs are shot, furthermore I don't see why it's missing the point. He simply wants to box the guy.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Anderson probably just figures this is bigger money than he can make in MMA. Has anybody made a million plus for a single fight yet?
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
Anderson Silva called Roy out, he's the one who brought this up originally and has talked repeatedly how its one of his dreams to "box" Roy Jones Jr. As far as I know they've never even talked about it being an MMA fight, how would it make sense for Anderson Silva to call out Roy Jones for an MMA fight?
"Forcing Silva to box"
:confused: There is no forcing here. Far from it.
Anderson Silva: "Maybe in the future I can make a boxing match happen, not against Fedor but against Roy Jones Jr. Actually, I'm waiting for that fight."
This is a very strange argument you're making Bilbo.
Even as it regards to your general argument, you hear more about MMA guys wanting to test their boxing skills against boxers (Silva, Nick Diaz, etc.) then you hear boxers calling MMA guys out for boxing matches.
Ah I thought it was Roy calling Silva out.
Either way I don't like the fight at all. Jones is a boxer, Silva is a mized martial artist I don't want to see either compromise their fighting arts.
I think money must be a factor. I'm guessing that in the UFC they don't make a great deal, certainly not millions.
I'm not sure how big a fight between Silva and Anderson would be though.
I mean in my experience MMA and boxing tend to have two seperate sets of fans more than those who love both sports.
I'm not sure MMA fans would be at all interested in Silva fighting a guy outside of their own sporting interest.
Plus how popular is Roy Jones these days? Even his fight with Calzaghe was hardly a mega event, I don't see how fighting Silva could be that huge.
I don't think this fight would make millions for either fighter really. By far I'd rather watch Silva fight Rampage Jackson or Lyto Machida, maybe even St Pierre.
And Jones, well if he isn't going to retire as he should, then maybe fight someone like Pavlik, Hopkins, Dawson. Ok so he'll lose but at least the fights are worthwhile, fighting Lacy is just a sideshow, and fighting Silva would be on the same level as Tyson's exhibition against Corrie Sanders.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Roy is one of those names that MMA fans know even if they don't know shit about boxing. More so than most guy that make up the P4P list.
Maybe Silva has just always wanted to fight Roy but I have no doubt a major part of it is the money, I'm still interested in finding out if anybody's made over a million for a fight in the UFC. The money issue will almost certainly become one of Dana White's problems over time. I'm sure some of the top level MMA guys look at boxing, they hear all this about MMA replacing boxing and then they look at the salaries and think WTF?
Nick Diaz called out Allan Green about a week or so ago. And has signed some sort of boxing contract. Apparently. Not a contract with Allan Green.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
Roy is one of those names that MMA fans know even if they don't know shit about boxing. More so than most guy that make up the P4P list.
Maybe Silva has just always wanted to fight Roy but I have no doubt a major part of it is the money, I'm still interested in finding out if anybody's made over a million for a fight in the UFC. The money issue will almost certainly become one of Dana White's problems over time. I'm sure some of the top level MMA guys look at boxing, they hear all this about MMA replacing boxing and then they look at the salaries and think WTF?
Nick Diaz called out Allan Green about a week or so ago. And has signed some sort of boxing contract. Apparently. Not a contract with Allan Green.
If they have it will surely only be Lesnar or Chuck Liddell.
I ahve no doubt the best fighters are millionaires, Couture, Liddell, Jackson, Huges etc but I can't imagine guys like Chris Leben, Mac Danzig, Clay Guida etc are rolling in dough.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
The SAV SCI blog–MMA and mayhem Blog Archive Jim Lampley on MMA
This is a great interview that Jim Lampley gave his honest opinion on MMA. He makes a few good points like most people only know the UFC product and not necessarily the MMA product and things like their hand picked announcers like Joe Rogan. Yes you can criticize Lampley and Merchant, but at least they asked the hard nose questions like Mosely's involvement with Balco, Merchant straight up saying that Floyd's fighting style is boring like in the Baldomir fight, etc. When's the last time Rogan asked those sort of hard nose questions?
Quote:
No question about it. They have done a better job of organizing and promoting the product to make an impact on the marketplace over the course of the past 12, 15 years. Does it mean that UFC, or MMA, is as legitimate and important and resonant a cultural experience as boxing? Not in a million years. Not even close. Boxing is a sport with a 120-year history, and extremely deep penetration in various cultures around the globe – most particularly American culture where it has produced some of the most prominent socio-political figures to be found in all of sport, most notably, Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali. No Joe Louis, no Muhammad Ali, no Barack Obama.
I think this is a great insight on boxing's history and cultural influence. I don't see the UFC having an icon like a Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, or even ones like Chavez or Pacquiao that can inspire millions of their countrymen.
He also goes on to say that there is enough room for both in the market place and that it's here to stay. It's legitimate. But I really don't think it will have an impact in the course of the socio-political climate that boxing had. And I really don't think it will overtake boxing, if the HW division get that one superstar like an Ali or Tyson again, there will be an massive interest in boxing again from the general public. In boxing the HW division is consider it's most glamorous and the lifeline of the sport.
Boxing's decline from the general public also has to do with the HW division being utterly shit, it's not coincidence.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
Roy is one of those names that MMA fans know even if they don't know shit about boxing. More so than most guy that make up the P4P list.
Maybe Silva has just always wanted to fight Roy but I have no doubt a major part of it is the money, I'm still interested in finding out if anybody's made over a million for a fight in the UFC. The money issue will almost certainly become one of Dana White's problems over time. I'm sure some of the top level MMA guys look at boxing, they hear all this about MMA replacing boxing and then they look at the salaries and think WTF?
Nick Diaz called out Allan Green about a week or so ago. And has signed some sort of boxing contract. Apparently. Not a contract with Allan Green.
If they have it will surely only be Lesnar or Chuck Liddell.
I ahve no doubt the best fighters are millionaires, Couture, Liddell, Jackson, Huges etc but I can't imagine guys like Chris Leben, Mac Danzig, Clay Guida etc are rolling in dough.
I suspect a good bit of their money is from sponsors and owning their own gyms, that type of thing.
UFC 100 purses- Brock Lesnar ($400,000 to show) vs. Frank Mir ($45,000 to show, $45,000 to win)
- Georges St-Pierre ($200,000 to show, $200,000 to win) vs. Thiago Alves ($60,000 to show, $60,000 to win)
- Michael Bisping ($150,000 to show, $100,000 to win) vs. Dan Henderson ($100,000 to show, $150,000 to win)
http://mmafrenzy.com/10925/ufc-100-main-event-salaries-lesnar-receives-400000-mir-could-earn-90k-with-victory/
LOL. Frank Mir should just start dealing meth.
I would get in the ring with Lesnar for 45 grand though. Fuck it. I wrestled in high school. I lost once to a guy from the state's school for the blind and the deaf. True story. I don't think he was really blind though, kind of blurry maybe. They had albino cheerleaders, I was psyched out.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
Anderson Silva called Roy out, he's the one who brought this up originally and has talked repeatedly how its one of his dreams to "box" Roy Jones Jr. As far as I know they've never even talked about it being an MMA fight, how would it make sense for Anderson Silva to call out Roy Jones for an MMA fight?
"Forcing Silva to box"
:confused: There is no forcing here. Far from it.
Anderson Silva: "Maybe in the future I can make a boxing match happen, not against Fedor but against Roy Jones Jr. Actually, I'm waiting for that fight."
This is a very strange argument you're making Bilbo.
Even as it regards to your general argument, you hear more about MMA guys wanting to test their boxing skills against boxers (Silva, Nick Diaz, etc.) then you hear boxers calling MMA guys out for boxing matches.
Ah I thought it was Roy calling Silva out.
Either way I don't like the fight at all. Jones is a boxer, Silva is a mized martial artist I don't want to see either compromise their fighting arts.
I think money must be a factor. I'm guessing that in the UFC they don't make a great deal, certainly not millions.
I'm not sure how big a fight between Silva and Anderson would be though.
I mean in my experience MMA and boxing tend to have two seperate sets of fans more than those who love both sports.
I'm not sure MMA fans would be at all interested in Silva fighting a guy outside of their own sporting interest.
Plus how popular is Roy Jones these days? Even his fight with Calzaghe was hardly a mega event, I don't see how fighting Silva could be that huge.
I don't think this fight would make millions for either fighter really. By far I'd rather watch Silva fight Rampage Jackson or Lyto Machida, maybe even St Pierre.
And Jones, well if he isn't going to retire as he should, then maybe fight someone like Pavlik, Hopkins, Dawson. Ok so he'll lose but at least the fights are worthwhile, fighting Lacy is just a sideshow, and fighting Silva would be on the same level as Tyson's exhibition against Corrie Sanders.
You were on the money in your first post though: a boxer would have to have exceptional footwork to be able to go against a mma fighter just to stay out of range and not get the legs kicked out from under them, without the slipped punches turning into elbows and so on down into the grapple and submit stage.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
I think it has to be accepted that these are two different fish ! World class boxer deals with MMA in a boxing match everytime, turn the reverse and the boxer is F****d.
I can't imagine too many boxers that could take a single quality kick to the legs let alone to the head.likewise handling a grappling match, some boxers can't event clinck when they get in trouble so imagine when they get grounded.
I have been watching some UFC this year as it's been a bit quiet with some of the big matches cancelled. I appreciate these guys and what they do but I still consider boxing a much more rounded and structured sport.
Let's not have any of these crossover matchups , won't be good for either sport in the end.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jamiebhoy
I think it has to be accepted that these are two different fish ! World class boxer deals with MMA in a boxing match everytime, turn the reverse and the boxer is F****d.
I can't imagine too many boxers that could take a single quality kick to the legs let alone to the head.likewise handling a grappling match, some boxers can't event clinck when they get in trouble so imagine when they get grounded.
I have been watching some UFC this year as it's been a bit quiet with some of the big matches cancelled. I appreciate these guys and what they do but I still consider boxing a much more rounded and structured sport.
Let's not have any of these crossover matchups , won't be good for either sport in the end.
I agree skip it altogether. Otherwise you would have to make it a cross section of 30 seconds of each sport for, 4 minute rounds to make it anywhere near even .
You would have to start with boxing and even then our boys would have to come out hot and firing to have any chance of seeing out a whole round.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
The SAV SCI blog–MMA and mayhem Blog Archive Jim Lampley on MMA
This is a great interview that Jim Lampley gave his honest opinion on MMA. He makes a few good points like most people only know the UFC product and not necessarily the MMA product and things like their hand picked announcers like Joe Rogan. Yes you can criticize Lampley and Merchant, but at least they asked the hard nose questions like Mosely's involvement with Balco, Merchant straight up saying that Floyd's fighting style is boring like in the Baldomir fight, etc. When's the last time Rogan asked those sort of hard nose questions?
Quote:
No question about it. They have done a better job of organizing and promoting the product to make an impact on the marketplace over the course of the past 12, 15 years. Does it mean that UFC, or MMA, is as legitimate and important and resonant a cultural experience as boxing? Not in a million years. Not even close. Boxing is a sport with a 120-year history, and extremely deep penetration in various cultures around the globe – most particularly American culture where it has produced some of the most prominent socio-political figures to be found in all of sport, most notably, Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali. No Joe Louis, no Muhammad Ali, no Barack Obama.
I think this is a great insight on boxing's history and cultural influence. I don't see the UFC having an icon like a Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, or even ones like Chavez or Pacquiao that can inspire millions of their countrymen.
He also goes on to say that there is enough room for both in the market place and that it's here to stay. It's legitimate. But I really don't think it will have an impact in the course of the socio-political climate that boxing had. And I really don't think it will overtake boxing, if the HW division get that one superstar like an Ali or Tyson again, there will be an massive interest in boxing again from the general public. In boxing the HW division is consider it's most glamorous and the lifeline of the sport.
Boxing's decline from the general public also has to do with the HW division being utterly shit, it's not coincidence.
Well of course MMA doesn't have any legendary icons like Ali or Joe Luis, it's only been around for just over a decade.
This doesn't mean that MMA won't build into something with a rich heritage and tradition however.
Guys like Liddell, Coutoure, the Gracies, Ken Shamrock, Sakaruba etc are already iconic within the MMA community and as the sport continues to grow it will create its own legendary stars.
I also think the idea that boxing has a rich heritage that penetrates deep into so many cultures to be largely bullshit.
Come to the UK, the birthplace of pugilsm and outside of hardcore boxing fans you won't see any traditions at all.
Ours is a land of football and cricket, and to a lesser extent rugby.
But let's be clear, its soccer that unites people and gives people a sense of patriotic fervour.
Occaisonally the nation will get behind a boxer and be united in their support for him but its very rare. I guess Hatton had this, before him it was Frank Bruno and Barry McGuigan, the non boxing public didn't care much for Nigel Benn, Eubank, Calzaghe etc.
But its football (soccer) that everybody will be talking about in the pub, it's football that is the universal language if you want to talk to any male stranger in the uk, from a taxi driver, to the guy next to you in the bar, to a distant relation at an annual family gathering etc.
Boxing has a rich history and heritage to those who follow it, but outside of its fans, its impact is not nearly so great as those within it like to believe.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Whilst you make some very good points Bilbo I do feel that I need to point out that until joining the MMA, Brock Lesnar was not a competative combat athlete whilst he was in the WWE.
If we're going to use arguments regarding people being active in the WWE then we might as well say that Floyd Mayweather has a legitimate competative win over a 480lb world class wrestler! ;)
and personally my thoughts on MMA is that it's hot shit... right now, once upon a time boxing was too... before the mismatches and vague titles etc started to creep in. I will not be at all surprised when the same inevitable thing happens to UFC.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
I think right now boxing lacks a number of things and BOXING is at fault for MMA becoming big.
1. Boxing is rarely on cable tv much less on network tv when it used to have a sweetheart of a deal much like the NFL does these days.
2. Guys have gotten lazy around the sport, fewer prospects are groomed properly in the sport, just look at American heavyweights for fuck's sake...I still think Evander Holyfield or even John Ruiz are still among the best American heavyweights, it hurts me to say that. There are lazy fighters, lazy trainers, and lazy fans...it's pathetic.
3. You have to SEARCH to find a young talent these days when they used to just fall right out of the amateurs onto tv and win over the crowd and build a fanbase and now it's increasingly hard to do.
4. This isn't boxing's fault, but MMA can draw from various pools of talent: wrestling, karate, judo, ju jitsu, tkd, etc etc etc...boxing just has boxing to draw from
Eventually if we keep on this path MMA will surpass boxing, they will steal our sponsors, they will steal our air time, and they will steal our fans. Sure I respect MMA, I still think boxing is the top...I DO think a boxer would beat Brock Lesnar in an MMA bout, but I think that sport has marketed itself in such a manner where it is ready to gain ground whenever boxing slips up.
The things we do have going for us are...
1. The Amateur system, it hasn't been run right recently but it's there and ready to groom talent whenever it comes through again.
2. Boxing will ALWAYS be an Olympic sport ergo we'll always have some class athletes.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kel
MMA was great at first because it included lots of styles, however MMA is almost a style in itself these days.
Fact.
I also disagree with Bilbo's premise that boxing is a martial art - bare knuckle stuff maybe at a push but boxing is a sport - you punch anyone with a bare fist the way you would with a wrapped gloved hand chances are you're going to bust it. I've known people do it...by the same point I've seen ex-boxers end a scuffle with a couple of jabs.
Muay thai taught as a sport is different than what they teach you as self defence.
All that kicky flashy TKD shit you see is sport & not what I'd consider as a MA.
Point and semi-contact fighting is sport not MA.
Re: Boxers like Jones Jr missing the point of MMA
Jones Jr. would get smashed by Silva in the same way a home gets swallowed up by a mud slide. There is no skill involved its just unyeilding force.
Many mixed martial artists hide poor technique behind 300 pounds of brawn. Honestly, besides being hulking monsters, I'm not impressed by anything they do.
When Jet Li and Jackie Chan face off against Donnie Yen and Gordon Lui I'll buy a front row seat.
