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Even though ufc is tough competition for boxing as far as ppv numbers and popularity goes, I think it puts pressure on boxing promoters to make more interesting match ups that people want to see instead of fighters with padded records fighting tomatoe cans just to maintain a respectable record. What do you guys/gals think?
I tend to agree that boxers are more interested in keeping their records padded out and maintaining the 0 . MMA guys don't put the same emphasis on it and there are a lot of good grudge match type scenarios which are good to promote.
The problem wih boxing is the alphabet soup where promotors can't and won't agree to fight each others fighters and the different organisations have people ranked differently with too much riding on a loss.
Sadly the current scene of catch weights semms to be prvoing the way forward for giving the publice some of the exciting fightes they need, but at what expense, it will only be a matter of time before someone is badly hurt doing this.
More needs to be done to get boxing back to the mainstream and start showing it on terestrial television again, even at lower level to generate interest.
With the news that the UFC have completed a TV deal in the UK the pressure will be on the promotors to get their act together.
No one wants to lose their 0 record though, second place is first loser!
Valid points and well articulated. You're right promoters do need to get their act together. Boxing is dying but not dead yet. There could be more done to bring it back into the mainstream like airing fights for free on tv and showing fight footage on sports networks instead of press conferences. I remember greg leon from boxingtalk bitching about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebhoy
Another point worth mentioning which was covered very recently here is that it's difficult to get agreement on the rights to fights in terms of releasing DVD's etc, I presume the same would be said for showing older fights on TV.
As I see it from a personal view, what's the loss in releasing say a box set of fights from each major promotor each year, even if it doesn't pull in a lot of $$ something is better than nothing.
Yet another contentious area where managers and fighters probably price themselves out of making these deal viable.
I think boxing should go back to the early to mid 20th century in terms of gloves, like the flyweights and such should use 4oz gloves.
ahhh, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by superboxer
I don't think you go far enough. Perhaps instead of gloves fighters should wear solid steel knuckledusters. Meanwhile gumshields should be outlawed from the sport. The loser gets fed to the lions at the end if the crowd sees fitQuote:
Originally Posted by superboxer
Maybe not the knuckledusters, they would fall instantly, we want more durable fights with excitement and blood. You want to make it better? I would go VinceMacmahon style: I say 15 rounds matches with 4 oz gloves with abrasive leather to scratch easily the skin, aluminium foil underneath, no possibilities to stop the fight because of a bad cut, use of vaseline or adrenalin would be forbidden, no gumshields allowed and each fighters would come to the ring with nothing less than fireworks and special effects. Oh, also, there would be 2 voluntary head butts allowed per fighter per fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinI don't think you go far enough. Perhaps instead of gloves fighters should wear solid steel knuckledusters. Meanwhile gumshields should be outlawed from the sport. The loser gets fed to the lions at the end if the crowd sees fitQuote:
Originally Posted by superboxer
Lighter gloves do not cause deaths or injuries. They changed it from 6oz for below featherweight to 8oz in 1991 as a knee-jerk response to a head injury and coma 'Akeem Anifowoshe' got. I remember seeing Cho Hi vs Daichi Sakoda(2008), they were landing full force at some times and neither went down. Cho Hi died from the fight. Changing the gloves to 8oz didn't save anyone. You could even say if the gloves were smaller, one of them might have been knocked out earlier and Cho Hi would not have taken all the punishment that killed him.
You could also say that that is only speculation, but so is the theory that smaller gloves are dangerous. It's all speculation. So instead of basing the glove size on complete guesswork about which one is safe or not, base it on entertainment. Smaller gloves = faster, harder punching = more entertaining.
I also watched video of "Masaki Sawanaga" dying in the ring. Again they were using 8oz gloves. Again it didn't save him.
You lost any credibility you might ever have had on this forum with those two sentences right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by superboxer
Why? Explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinYou lost any credibility you might ever have had on this forum with those two sentences right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by superboxer
You're basing the glove size on entertainment. Have you ever been in a ring? Being hit by a 14oz glove is vastly less painful than being hit by a 10oz glove worn by the same fighter. Yes, people still die with 8oz, but a hell of a lot more fighters were dying in the ring in the early part of the 20th century. But obviously you want to return to that for 'entertainment' :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by superboxerWhy? Explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinYou lost any credibility you might ever have had on this forum with those two sentences right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by superboxer
Nothing you said there is new to me. Yes I have been in the ring, I have sparred using the tiring, burdening 16oz sparring gloves and fought using much better 10oz gloves. The 10oz gloves were a lot easier to fight with, but 6oz would be much better and 4oz better still. Did I receive more damage from an individual shot from a 10oz than a 16oz? Of course. It's boxing, and damage is an integral part of the game. Otherwise why not wear those helmets American football players use?Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinYou're basing the glove size on entertainment. Have you ever been in a ring? Being hit by a 14oz glove is vastly less painful than being hit by a 10oz glove worn by the same fighter. Yes, people still die with 8oz, but a hell of a lot more fighters were dying in the ring in the early part of the 20th century. But obviously you want to return to that for 'entertainment' :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by superboxerWhy? Explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Pain itself does not cause head injury and death, repeat damage to the brain does. I already made the point about some of the deaths and how hypothetically if the fights had been finished earlier with more powerful punches the deaths might not have occurred, but due to the reduced impact, the fighters received a lot more blows and the overall punishment was greater than if that had happened.
Which fighter has received more punishment? The fighter knocked out with a punch that is 10 on the power scale, or a fighter TKO'd with 20 shots over the course of his demise that rate 5.
10 x 1 = 10
5 x 20 = 100
Yes you could come up with your own speculation but it's pretty pointless. There was no solid reason to change the glove size so much, and it reduced entertainment.
As for a lot more people dying, that could be due to a lot of factors. Better refereeing / quicker stoppages, less rounds, better doctor presence etc. Correlation does not automatically mean causation. They used to have blank canvases rather than advertisements on them. I guess all the deaths in boxing have been due to that then, since the deaths are lower now than they were when the canvases. The fighters had different hairstyles, maybe that caused it...Quote:
Yes, people still die with 8oz, but a hell of a lot more fighters were dying in the ring in the early part of the 20th century. But obviously you want to return to that for 'entertainment' :rolleyes:
Dude you're off your tree. We are building fighters bodies, stronger, faster, more explosive every day. If you can't see how it would be a bad idea to all of a sudden throw on 4 oz gloves and have at it, then there is really no point in speaking with you on the issue.
Boxing isn't MMA, with a combination of various techniques and less rounds and time spent. We try to hurt the other opponent, largely by causing them brain damage by consistantly attacking their head. And succeeding fairly well without the help of less protection.
I can see how it would be a bad idea and I look at it from how it would be a good idea too and compare the advantages and disadvantages. The safety issue is more hypothetical than anything, but I think we can all agree that a more sensible(i.e. lighter) glove for the lower weights would stop the slowing and watering down of punches and add more entertainment and excitement to the fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngblood
Not well enough in the lower weights in my opinion. The lower weights are handicapped by the glove size and it is evident in the fights. There are exceptions, like Roman Gonzalez(who would be more of a monster without the handicap) but for the most part the fights are lacking in damage, impact and entertainment. I remember Ruben Olivares remarked in one of his fights(I cannot remember which one) that if they had been using 6oz instead of 8oz he would have lost, and sure enough I watched the fight and after only a round or two it was like they were both punching underwater with their slow weighed down punches. Jimmy Wilde complained about 8oz gloves as opposed to the usual 4oz too when he was in America.Quote:
Boxing isn't MMA, with a combination of various techniques and less rounds and time spent. We try to hurt the other opponent, largely by causing them brain damage by consistantly attacking their head. And succeeding fairly well without the help of less protection.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hqlATnKsfE
But whatever, it will never happen anyway.
hmm interesting thread.
I have a hard time taking MMA seriously. Sure it is real, and it requires strength and skill, but it doesn't really seem like sport to me. It's closer to streetfighting than it is to boxing, But I guess that's one reason why people like it.
All the tough guy posturing and chest beating and howling at the moon shit in UFC is a sad joke really, doesn't do a thing for me. That aspect of it is a step towards WWF.
Anyways, here's to hoping boxing sees a better future. I don't think the alphabet soup thing is a prime concern, rather it is a lack of really big names, and also the shoddy decisions.
If you want to look at primary examples of where lighter gloves might benefit boxing, I suggest you atleast look at this thread. Somewhere in it is a link to the show, the complete story, with fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by superboxerI can see how it would be a bad idea and I look at it from how it would be a good idea too and compare the advantages and disadvantages. The safety issue is more hypothetical than anything, but I think we can all agree that a more sensible(i.e. lighter) glove for the lower weights would stop the slowing and watering down of punches and add more entertainment and excitement to the fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngblood
Not well enough in the lower weights in my opinion. The lower weights are handicapped by the glove size and it is evident in the fights. There are exceptions, like Roman Gonzalez(who would be more of a monster without the handicap) but for the most part the fights are lacking in damage, impact and entertainment. I remember Ruben Olivares remarked in one of his fights(I cannot remember which one) that if they had been using 6oz instead of 8oz he would have lost, and sure enough I watched the fight and after only a round or two it was like they were both punching underwater with their slow weighed down punches. Jimmy Wilde complained about 8oz gloves as opposed to the usual 4oz too when he was in America.Quote:
Boxing isn't MMA, with a combination of various techniques and less rounds and time spent. We try to hurt the other opponent, largely by causing them brain damage by consistantly attacking their head. And succeeding fairly well without the help of less protection.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hqlATnKsfE
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ast-night.html
I understand what you are saying, in regards to making it more attractive for the fan, and you are probably right, but also, I think people would line up around the block to see folks murdered on live tv just for shit n giggles. It is our part of our ugly human nature. It's why we have rules and regulations for such things. To protect us from ourselves.
You could create bigger names by making fights people want to see happen. i guess i'm not really looking at the big picture though, it would take a lot for fighters and promoters to agree to terms with on another. I think the people behind the politics of boxing need to change the way the look at things and become a little more humbled. They could make a lot more money working with eachother by gaining public interest through tantilizing match making. i know this is easier said than done but at times the politics of boxing drive me crazy, there are so many obstacles in the way of making a mega fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
That was interesting, apparently Trinidad did the same thing a few times but never proven. However Resto also used hardened plaster in his gloves. I'm watching the Resto vs Collins fight now(the video quality is bad :eek:), is there any more fights you can mention where that happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by YoungbloodIf you want to look at primary examples of where lighter gloves might benefit boxing, I suggest you atleast look at this thread. Somewhere in it is a link to the show, the complete story, with fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by superboxerI can see how it would be a bad idea and I look at it from how it would be a good idea too and compare the advantages and disadvantages. The safety issue is more hypothetical than anything, but I think we can all agree that a more sensible(i.e. lighter) glove for the lower weights would stop the slowing and watering down of punches and add more entertainment and excitement to the fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngblood
Not well enough in the lower weights in my opinion. The lower weights are handicapped by the glove size and it is evident in the fights. There are exceptions, like Roman Gonzalez(who would be more of a monster without the handicap) but for the most part the fights are lacking in damage, impact and entertainment. I remember Ruben Olivares remarked in one of his fights(I cannot remember which one) that if they had been using 6oz instead of 8oz he would have lost, and sure enough I watched the fight and after only a round or two it was like they were both punching underwater with their slow weighed down punches. Jimmy Wilde complained about 8oz gloves as opposed to the usual 4oz too when he was in America.Quote:
Boxing isn't MMA, with a combination of various techniques and less rounds and time spent. We try to hurt the other opponent, largely by causing them brain damage by consistantly attacking their head. And succeeding fairly well without the help of less protection.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hqlATnKsfE
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ast-night.html
I understand what you are saying, in regards to making it more attractive for the fan, and you are probably right, but also, I think people would line up around the block to see folks murdered on live tv just for shit n giggles. It is our part of our ugly human nature. It's why we have rules and regulations for such things. To protect us from ourselves.
If MMA fighters are so great, then why don't they come over to boxing and make millions ? If you put a Klitschko in a cage he would still be VERY competitive, even against the best MMA fighters. But if you put Fedor in a boxing ring he would get outclassed by an ordinary fighter e.g Danny Williams or Audley Harrison. That's the difference with MMA. Boxing takes SKILLS. The local bouncer at your nightclub could probably make it as a MMA fighters. This is no disrespect to MMA but to me.
MMA is going to go the same way as Kick-Boxing did. Remember that ? 10 years ago Kick-Boxing was meant to be the next big thing. Now you don't even hear of it. MMA fighters have no chin, their bodies are a joke, they only have two week training camps, the fights rarely go the distance and they never seem to remain unbeaten. Boxers have to run up and down hills, spar, watch their weight and condition their body to take pain.
Fighters have DIED in a boxing ring or been seriously brain damaged. Listen to all you MMA fans come and talk to me when you can show me a Gerald McClellan or a Michael Watson of MMA. I'm sick and tired of these MMA fans running around here boasting about how hard and tough their sport is !!*But...but...but...if a boxer fought an MMA fighter in a street fight..the MMA fighter would win* ..that’s usually the argument made by supporters of MMA. Well it depends on the quality of the participants. Ok then, best Vs best. Peak Tyson Vs Peak Fedor in a street fight ? Who would win ? For me Tyson all day. Also if the MMA did beat the boxer in a street fight. It only would be because he stopped the boxer guy from fighting by taking him down. It's a bit like me saying I'm a faster runner than a star athlete, then why the gun goes off, get a baseball bat and break his legs.
Im not really up on glove sizes and what not but i do know that there was a bit of a stink when it was decided that the 140 division (i think ???) should use bigger gloves. Gloves that were though to be to big for that division.... (Im sorry for not being able to verify this, but i definitely read it somewhere fairly recently)
At the end of the day, there will be loads more ''knee-jerk'' decisions relating to boxers safety and ultimately the glove size will always go up, never down. Which is a real shame.
IMO the gloves ARE too big in some of the smaller/ tiny divisions.
Interesting thoughts;
Im just wondering out aloud here:
Do the Ufc dudes claim that their smaller gloves do more damage faster so the fights are over quicker when done through a knockout and therefore less damaging than boxing?
They havent lost anyone in the octagon as yet have they?
You would think getting bashed with your head already on the floor would do much more overall damage.
As boxing fans, we shouldn't really be using things like this as a boast.Quote:
Originally Posted by denilson200
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanman89Quote:
Originally Posted by denilson200
As boxing fans, we shouldn't really be using things like this as a boast.
Totally agree mate, these examples should not be used as bragging rights. That then makes boxing fans sound like they are brain dead and the more blood thirsty of the groups.
As for street fights etc, yes some boxers would hold their own because they have been involved in that in the past and are generally street wise and brawlers.
However the argument is lost on a street fight when it's suggested that the MMA fighter wimps out by taking the fight down to the ground. Isn't the whole point in a street fight to win and by any means, otherwise it's a boxing match which then makes it unfair.
As for MMA fighters being out of shape, well that again doesn't hold water.Some are out of shape looking whilst others are exceptional as far as physique goes.There have been some top boxers who don't posses the ideal beach body but you still wouldn't want to cross them !
lol the ol' street fight boxer mma arguement. yea, which ever one is more willing to bite the others nose off whilst sticking him with a broken jagged bottle is prob. gonna win. Then 50 boots to the face while he's out for safe measure.
So Bernard Hopkins thenQuote:
Originally Posted by Youngblood
naw. Bernard got it going on, but this machine...Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinSo Bernard Hopkins thenQuote:
Originally Posted by Youngblood
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyzwwwiBhxE
maybe more damage to the actual jaw,skull etc but not so much to the brain as it's not being rattled the same way it would in boxing ?? Not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
That's jokes, shame it's all obviously fake. That bitch is a behemoth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngbloodnaw. Bernard got it going on, but this machine...Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinSo Bernard Hopkins thenQuote:
Originally Posted by Youngblood
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyzwwwiBhxE