Training device

Look, I'm new to this forum and don't want to break any rules. I have a device that throws straight 18 inch punches from 5 to 13 mph. The average jab is 9 mph so it gives plenty of reaction time practice from slow to super fast. Much better training than a slip bag IMHO.

I did not see a training section but this one came the closest. I will not post the webiste showing the device unless I get permission and I didn't see anything in the rules about posting a site when I joined.

So, trainer, please let me know if I should post the site or not. It is not for sale anyway and all I want are inputs.

Thanks...John

Hi john. welcome to the site. This device sounds great. How did you come across it?

ryan, I'm the one that invented it. It is intended to be a tool, not a sparring partner; obviously nothing can be made to replace the human body. My background is competition action pistol shooting, not to say that I don't love my little boxing gym at home. It's just that I was looking for something that I could help train my reaction times like I did in shooting. A tool that could take me from slow to faster as I learned slowly to go faster, just like shooting.

Think of it as a much better slip bag and just another reflex training device. Keep in mind too that I don't have true boxing experience like you all do. My only glove fights were with friends and I had more street fights that were NOT with friends, so what the device does may not be for people who box.

Hey John, you're in the right place. This is the training section of the board.

By the way, we had a related thread that you might be interested in. You can read it here: http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ternative.html

I think that a machine that can punch straight out is a good idea. Having a thick pad behind the punching machine would be helpful, since it's natural to throw a counter punch after slipping a punch.

Chris, I read that thread and it is nice to know people share my thoughts. It would be nice to have realistic punches come at you. I tried this in a few other forums and it was about 50/50, some liked it and others thought it was a waste. It IS a waste in thinking it can do all that a sparring partner could do. To me, they missed the point but we all have our opinions.

So I gather it is ok to post the device and it could be looked at here:

Robotic Boxing Trainer (RBT) - Home

Ignore my poor presentation, take it for what it is rather than what it's not, and let me know what you think.

It was extremely hard to find the right parts to mimic human jab speeds and yet not hurt like a human punch does.

Hi John, sorry that your post didn't show up at first. Our forum is set up so any posts by a new member that contains a website link is blocked until a moderator approves it. It's just a safeguard against spam. Again sorry for any inconvenience.

Here are my thoughts:
That's really nifty! Very dynamic, especially with the feedback. ;D I'd like to put a kiddy boxing glove at the end of it and tape it so that it's rolled into a fist.

I think it would be nice if you could get closer to it without the compressor and punching bag getting in the way. That way I can step forward after avoiding it's punch, or I can just bend a little at my waist so that my head is moved off to the side, and out of the way of the punch.

Anyways it's getting late over here (EST), and like to talk about this more tomorrow. Thanks for sharing!

Chris, thanks for the feed back and I appreciate this forum letting post what I have so it could be made better.

Real quick, I can not add gloves as it is now because of the weight it adds. I may be able to do a fake glove sometime that is filled with a light foam but that will disfigure in shape in no time at all. At least with the size fist it has now, if you can stop it slipping into you, you sure can stop a glove.

About the compressor and bag in front, that is just a traveling version I made to possibly show at some gyms. In reality, you can just attach the arms or arm to a wall, put them at any height, width or angle and have nothing else in your way.

About getting closer, I have data what your reaction time must be at the end of the 18 inch punch from slow to fast speed. When a person is let's say at 9 inches from the fist, your reaction time is about half because I had tested with radar the speeds at half way and they are just as fast as all the way. What I'm saying is, you have to be VERY fast at 18 inches let alone at 9.

Yeah that can punch really fast. Do you simply adjust the air pressure to change the speed?

Yes, simply change to pressure to change the speed. Once done, the speed is very consistent. So let's say you got it down to slip a 7 mph punch, if you turn it up about 10 psi it will be a bit faster so then you work at that speed and so on.

The amount of punches and the sequence can be changed by the program setting. It could have numerous program settings. I'm only showing one.

An error people make is they say that they and others can punch much faster than 13 mph. So can I. My jab is 10 mph without cocking it first. My right cross is 17 mph and if I measure my long hook, it would be even faster. That only matters for power of the punch, not reaction times because those punches start from way back, and for a punch to start way back means some punch was thrown already to set up the long punch or the person moved a guard hand back to throw a punch from farther back. All of that takes time. So in reality, the true test of reaction time is WHERE the punch originated from the guard position and the distance it traveled. So a 13 mph jab (which may not be humanly possible) traveling 18 inches gives a reaction time of just 800 ms. If a person can stop that punch, they should be able to stop any of the others. I just don't think anyone is that fast but maybe some day a pro boxer will let me see if they can on the RBT. I'd bet they can't. Anyway, you get the picture.

Like the idea, but how was it tested, to do what it says it does. It doesnt add up.

How was it tested? By radar. What part does not add up? The lower hit force is from the 10 oz arm rather than a 9 to 12 lb human arm going at the same speed.

Again, everything it says it does is true, but it's NOT a sparring partner. Still, it's a workout and it sure teaches keep your guard up.

I think its great John. I've checked out your website and the videos on youtube. Kudos to you for devising and putting it together. I think it could be a really useful tool, for people that just want to have fun and get fit at home, or people new to boxing.

ryanman, thanks for seeing it for what it is. It does teach that jabs come in very fast and you're much better off having your guard up already rather than making it come up after the punch started at you because that is usually too late, at least it is for me.

Also, in the vids I was cheating and I don't do that anymore. I had my hands in front of me just trying to show blocking the RBT arms but in reality I keep them farther to me and slightly to the sides to guard from a hook.

I can't slip the RBT even at 7 mph. I just can't move back or to the side that fast. All I can do is block it with my hands. It always sneaks punches through but it is a lot less than when I started.

Like you said, it is FUN and I may see how it may market in the exercise customer base. I love to hit the speed bags, double end bags and heavy bag, but my shoulders get the most tired boxing against the RBT. Part of the reason is punching from a distance and keeping my guard up all the time. MUCH different workout than just hitting.

Not criticiseing matey just asking what tests have been done. THe thing being its not reaction as such that makes the blocking or slipping of a punch effective, its the movement or action before the shot byou react to. Its the permatation of lots of things. The eye sense or message doesnt go direct to the brain its the only sense that doesnt. I would think it could give bad habits, like waiting for the action rather than avoidance. Just curious :rolleyes:, wish you well with it.

Scrap, agreed, it could give bad habits. It has to be taken within the realm of what it is doing. One has to realize that it is only throwing straight punches and it is not moving. That said, I could pick up a lot worse habits just hitting a heavy bag or double end bag that is not even punching back. I always say, anyone can look good hitting something that does not strike back, even an old man like me.;)

About waiting for action rather than avoidance, I have learned to NOT wait, guard to avoid, get in and out QUICK because action beats reaction. Still, the other person acts too and no matter what, a person has to react sometime. In the vids I was showing blocking.

What it has taught me, I am not personally fast enough to slip punches, so when I come in to punch, I try to do it fast and keep a guard that exposes the least amount when going in to punch. Now I know I could block faster with my arms and hands much faster than I could slip.

I was surprised too when I read research that a sound registers faster with the brain than sight. An unfair advantage the RBT has is that it has no elbow, torso, feet, etc, that all move in a human punch, giving more to see along with the moving punch. The RBT arms just pop out...BAAAAAM!

It think it could be great to build contact reflexes if you could have your forearm arm touching it and go off the contact reaction more than the visual one.

It looks like great fun too, Id love to have a go of one.

I was really hoping it would belt you one when you turned your back on it and went around the side to adjust the speed ;D.

Just seen the Vidio ;D, interesting. Thats not a Bad idea, I apologise, lots of things and permentations could come of it. How hard is the impact.

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Originally Posted by Andre

It think it could be great to build contact reflexes if you could have your forearm arm touching it and go off the contact reaction more than the visual one.

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Just for the heck of it, I will try that to see where it could lead. Not that you'd do that in a fight, but I just may learn something new.

It also has taught me to focus on where I'm hitting even though punches are coming at me. I leave the opening small to the dummy's head and at first I was getting too wild on my punches because I was too focused on avoiding getting hit, but no more, I stay focused where I'm punching. When it punches I try to come in real quick on that same punch side and throw a hook into the face right under the arm or come under and hook into the torso side.

Scrap, the impact is low at the slow to medium speeds, which is real jab speeds, but at top speed it says "hello" for sure, but even my bad neck can take it. If I were to market it as a fun way to exercise, I would regulate the psi to not go beyond 90 because beyond that, it is just too fast anyway.

John,
I've shown your videos to a few friends. they aren't really into boxing but love to exercise. They all said it looked great and that they would definately buy one if it came on the market. A few of them like to hit the bag and pads, purely for fitness. Sometimes i throw a few jabs at them while they do it, just to tire them even more. So they are well aware how much more tiring it is when punches are coming back at you. Which is why it would make a fun and effective fitness tool.
I mean, if its a choice between a 5 mile run or slipping jabs and countering with booming hooks, theres no contest really.

ryanman, thank you so much for showing it and then letting me know what your friends thought from an exercise point of view. That means a lot to me.

Last Friday I smashed my thumb pretty bad building something so several days had to go by before the swelling went down a bit. I sure missed boxing against the RBT and yesterday I was able to do it again and bare the thumb pain. I look forward to it that much. Like you said, it is amazing how much more of a workout it is punching AND trying not to get hit. I can only do about 4 rounds because my shoulders are screaming by then. I can see why boxers going many rounds get sloppy. Still, they show what great shape they are in to go that long.

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Originally Posted by Andre

It think it could be great to build contact reflexes if you could have your forearm arm touching it and go off the contact reaction more than the visual one.

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Andre, for what it's worth, I tried your suggestion today and found the visual is much better, at least for me. It was just too fast to even deflect the RBT arm with my arm that was touching it before it hit me.

I also tried a new style of punching today against it that made me get hit less but it is a shoulder killer. Rather than just punching fast to get in out quick, I also worked hard at bringing my punch hand back to the guard position as fast as possible once it made the hit. It is obviously great for the least percentage of time your guard is open, but it also is like a fast reload to be ready to punch again with the same arm. The only problem like I said, it really gets to my shoulders and I will have to build up those muscles involved with that quick return movement, but I could see it is worth it.

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Originally Posted by atgatt

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Originally Posted by Andre

It think it could be great to build contact reflexes if you could have your forearm arm touching it and go off the contact reaction more than the visual one.

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Andre, for what it's worth, I tried your suggestion today and found the visual is much better, at least for me. It was just too fast to even deflect the RBT arm with my arm that was touching it before it hit me.

I also tried a new style of punching today against it that made me get hit less but it is a shoulder killer. Rather than just punching fast to get in out quick, I also worked hard at bringing my punch hand back to the guard position as fast as possible once it made the hit. It is obviously great for the least percentage of time your guard is open, but it also is like a fast reload to be ready to punch again with the same arm. The only problem like I said, it really gets to my shoulders and I will have to build up those muscles involved with that quick return movement, but I could see it is worth it.

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Its a forearm feeling that is built up over a long time through a system that is slow and one armed al the way to fast and blind folded.A practiced person would enjoy having a go at it I imagine although the style that does utilize it in nose to nose fighting feels the whole opponents intention through that point, I imagine a machine having zero intention and a very stable balance would exercise them in reaction speed only as an additional benefit. It would be interesting to get a local advanced practitioner of Wing Chun in to see what they think.

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Originally Posted by Andre

It would be interesting to get a local advanced practitioner of Wing Chun in to see what they think.

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I emailed a few other boxing gyms and about 5 martial arts schools if I could bring the RBT there, and only one boxing gym took up the offer and they were surprised they couldn't slip the jabs at the slower speeds.

You gave me an idea to email martial arts schools and challenge them that they may not be good enough to slip normal jabs and the RBT can prove it. Appeal to their challenging ego.

Interesting about the blind folded close range fighting technique. Sounds very advanced.

Looking at it, how much will they retail at.

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Looking at it, how much will they retail at.

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I really don't know. The arms and shoulders that are the least expensive out of all it can be made much cheaper by buying in higher amounts. The electronics is the biggest cost, but if a company took on the project, once the various modes were programmed for the random punch sequences, that could be made into a computer chip rather than the more expensive Programmable Logic Controller and Power Supply that I'm using now.

So, if I were guessing, a company could sell them around $300 to $400, maybe even cheaper. Don't even ask what I spent coming up with what would work and the time doing it. It is much harder than it appears.

It's the hardest workout tool I have, bar none. I've hit various bags for years thinking my shoulders were in good shape, until......the RBT came along.

that's an amazing device you got there! wouldn't mind buying one for that price.

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Originally Posted by God.in.my.corner

that's an amazing device you got there! wouldn't mind buying one for that price.

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Thanks. As mentioned, there is so much more I would like to do to the RBT but the lack of funding will delay that. All I can do is continue to see if a company that sees its potential will invest in it.

As it is now, it has taught me so much. I know if I can't slip a 9 mph jab from it, my 10 mph bare fisted jab will very likely hit its mark before a person can react. Adding 1 mph to a jab really makes a difference too and I will see if I could analyze how to get my jab to 11 mph.

It would be interesting to see how a boxer's jab speed changes from wearing a boxing glove compared to not wearing one and where the jab hand is positioned before the jab to see if more speed can be attained by making a slight change in position. As far as I know, punches have never been analyzed like that and I wonder why. At least the RBT can make a person aware of what jab speeds in mph really reveal to a reaction time.

I've read a lot of this stuff, and have been giving you the benefit of the doubt, and can actually see a use for this machine. But I gotta tell you something. I am starting to see you wander into threads talking about things you have no idea about with this sport while promoting your contraption. So you are starting to lose me fast.

And for the record...I was one of the first people "The Truth Is" on another site who told you how ridiculous it was that you were advertising how this machine was better then a sparring partner (yes, I know, you said you were joking...but it covered 1/2 of your promotional page at the time). Atleast you had to good sense to remove that claim, for it was truly laughable. So sorry if this seems a bit bitter, but stick to what you know. Building an interesting machine with a potential use for limited help with a boxer in one or 2 areas.

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Originally Posted by Youngblood

I've read a lot of this stuff, and have been giving you the benefit of the doubt, and can actually see a use for this machine. But I gotta tell you something. I am starting to see you wander into threads talking about things you have no idea about with this sport while promoting your contraption. So you are starting to lose me fast.

And for the record...I was one of the first people "The Truth Is" on another site who told you how ridiculous it was that you were advertising how this machine was better then a sparring partner (yes, I know, you said you were joking...but it covered 1/2 of your promotional page at the time). Atleast you had to good sense to remove that claim, for it was truly laughable. So sorry if this seems a bit bitter, but stick to what you know. Building an interesting machine with a potential use for limited help with a boxer in one or 2 areas.

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Truth? You claim to be saying the truth?! What I had was a COMPARISON to a sparring partner. You and others assumed that I was saying it was better. The joking part was saying how the RBT didn't get sweaty, etc. Why don't you say the truth how I asked which one of those claims were not true in the comparison. Not one person did that. They just kept mouthing off but couldn't produce and here it goes again. I don't care if I lose people like you fast. Take Reading 101 again and see what a person is saying rather than assuming. I took out the comparison realizing that people read what they want instead of what is there. I should have left it so I do lose people like you fast.

As far as promoting my "contraption", I'll continue to do so. If you don't like it, then don't have interest. Sorry if you are the only expert out there knowing anything about the sport and no one else can make anything that just might be better than a slip bag.

Hey "truthseeker", which one of my comparisons to a sparring partner was not true? Come on. Let the truth be known to all. If you can't make that claim, how are you the one out for truth and justice?

Go to Boxingscene.com and copy and past here a comparison that was brought up that was wrong. Can you?

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Truth? You claim to be saying the truth?! What I had was a COMPARISON to a sparring partner. You and others assumed that I was saying it was better. The joking part was saying how the RBT didn't get sweaty, etc. Why don't you say the truth how I asked which one of those claims were not true in the comparison. Not one person did that. They just kept mouthing off but couldn't produce and here it goes again. I don't care if I lose people like you fast. Take Reading 101 again and see what a person is saying rather than assuming. I took out the comparison realizing that people read what they want instead of what is there. I should have left it so I do lose people like you fast.

As far as promoting my "contraption", I'll continue to do so. If you don't like it, then don't have interest. Sorry if you are the only expert out there knowing anything about the sport and no one else can make anything that just might be better than a slip bag.

Hey "truthseeker", which one of my comparisons to a sparring partner was not true? Come on. Let the truth be known to all. If you can't make that claim, how are you the one out for truth and justice?

Go to Boxingscene.com and copy and past here a comparison that was brought up that was wrong. Can you?

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Listen you jackass. I was one of the only ones willing to help you, and offer constructive crritcism there. And only on the marketing. To help you.

But now that you are showing your true colors, I will be a little more honest and less compassionate to your oblivion. That goofy thing you made serves little purpose. It will cost more then anyone in their right mind would put out to buy, let alone a company with bottomline dollar sense understanding the market and limited funds often available to boxing gyms. It just does not hold very much value. I think if anything, it could be a problem for boxers to use, engraining a one-dimensional approach to blocking and slipping and not allowing for all the variation something as simple as a jab has.

So go ahead and keep telling people how sweet it is cuz your radar gun don't lie, and 9 miles per hr, oh WAIT, 11 miles per hr is the shit and just over rides everything else. :vd:

And you can post whatever defensive reply you want, I really don't care, I won't be responding as I've read about as much of your 'knowledge' and inability to reason as I can stand.

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Originally Posted by Youngblood

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Truth? You claim to be saying the truth?! What I had was a COMPARISON to a sparring partner. You and others assumed that I was saying it was better. The joking part was saying how the RBT didn't get sweaty, etc. Why don't you say the truth how I asked which one of those claims were not true in the comparison. Not one person did that. They just kept mouthing off but couldn't produce and here it goes again. I don't care if I lose people like you fast. Take Reading 101 again and see what a person is saying rather than assuming. I took out the comparison realizing that people read what they want instead of what is there. I should have left it so I do lose people like you fast.

As far as promoting my "contraption", I'll continue to do so. If you don't like it, then don't have interest. Sorry if you are the only expert out there knowing anything about the sport and no one else can make anything that just might be better than a slip bag.

Hey "truthseeker", which one of my comparisons to a sparring partner was not true? Come on. Let the truth be known to all. If you can't make that claim, how are you the one out for truth and justice?

Go to Boxingscene.com and copy and past here a comparison that was brought up that was wrong. Can you?

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Listen you jackass. I was one of the only ones willing to help you, and offer constructive crritcism there. And only on the marketing. To help you.

But now that you are showing your true colors, I will be a little more honest and less compassionate to your oblivion. That goofy thing you made serves little purpose. It will cost more then anyone in their right mind would put out to buy, let alone a company with bottomline dollar sense understanding the market and limited funds often available to boxing gyms. It just does not hold very much value. I think if anything, it could be a problem for boxers to use, engraining a one-dimensional approach to blocking and slipping and not allowing for all the variation something as simple as a jab has.

So go ahead and keep telling people how sweet it is cuz your radar gun don't lie, and 9 miles per hr, oh WAIT, 11 miles per hr is the shit and just over rides everything else. :vd:

And you can post whatever defensive reply you want, I really don't care, I won't be responding as I've read about as much of your 'knowledge' and inability to reason as I can stand.

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Just as I thought, you can't bring up anything in the comparison I had that was not true. You slam me for it but can't back it up. I come up with a tool that really upsets some people for some reason. Since it is NOT a sparring partner, how dare I. Well, I do dare and if you don't like it, fine, but please be honest what was shared in that other forum rather than slander me. If name calling makes you feel big, go ahead. It pleased another in that forum to voice how'd he like to beat me up. Imagine that, I weigh 130 lbs, 56 years old, I have a rebuilt shoulder and that "brave boxer" who has been in the ring physically threatens me. Of course if I looked like Mike Tyson his voice would have changed. You prove that what makes a man a man has nothing to do with a ring. Let people decide who is showing their "true colors".

It's the fact you don't listen to anyone without a counter arguement about how this thing is better then, and are becoming one giant infomercial. And this isn't an infomercial section dude. And you really don't know a damn thing about boxing. Sorry if that offends you. But it is fairly obvious to a lot of us. I thought your machine might have merit, but still you jump into threads talking about how feel isn't so much of anything, speed is. You're pulling that outta thin air.

And if you're only goal here is to sell and promote your machine, we have a spam section for that. It's just a few doors down.

Nice job playing the victim card too, you poor poor thing. :eek:

I think you are being a bit harsh Youngblood.
Most of what the guy has said has been reasonable. Perhaps on other sites he has made overly bold claims, i don't know, but he hasn't here.
He seems to know what his device is and what it isnt. As i have said i think it looks like a good exercise tool, fun and engaging. He has said that thats primarialy what it is for. If he did make these claims on other sites about its usefulness but isnt here, doesnt that show he might have just accepted some criticisms?
Also, why criticise the guy for talking on other threads? If he doesn't know much about boxing i say he should be encouraged to learn more, not criticised. He hasn't claimed to be a boxing expert.
All in all, as i said, i think you have been a tad harsh.

It's because he is totally discounting what we know for fact, and adding his assumption his system of speed is more of value. Based on what? Not a damn thing! Plus he took a bit of a nasty turn first, so fuk him. I really don't care. He's just here to sell his thing, nothin more. When it doesn't work on one website, he moves to another.

I think I am probably one of the more tolerant people around for new people, here and on other sites, and truly do try to help, and in fact tried to help him on another site, but then he throws that in my face (and makes excuses about it being a joke....yea right, all his marketing approach was about how it was better then a real sparring partner...I should have print screened it for a laugh it was so retarded). So I could give 2 shits. I think the thing is useless for boxing as will be over-priced and one-dimensonal, and will fly like a lead balloon in the boxing market.

Sometimes I get tired of wearing kitt gloves to people with blinders and ear muffs. And he has both. So yea, fuk him. Harsh? Yup. You gonna buy one of these things? I sure wouldn't. the novelty and usefulness will wear off in about aweek.

So yea, that was harsh. But he reminds me of these guys who put up a sparring video, and when you offer advice, always come back with..."But you don't understand. No, you're wrong!" Cuz they got it all figured out and are listening to no one but themselves talk, or watching the sweet thing they perceive they are doing.

Or maybe I'm just grumpy today. hahahahaha

My 2 pennys worth for what it is. It will be hard to market as regards insurance premiums, in its present form. I know about these things ;D, and the red tape having qiute a few Pattents. SEcondly as Youn gblood says, what benifit does it give, as a fun thing at the fare okay. But when Boxing its about interpretaing the movement before the punch, you dont wait you move, there are better ways to overcome the problem that dont cost a lot.

I agree there are easier cheaper ways to gain quick at the draw reactions.

Besides the one unspoken major thing that Youngblood hasnt mentioned is the unseen punch (the set up punch and the finisher) and the art required behind the moves in boxing to be able to deliver one. At the other end of the scale; reacting correctly to the opponents gravity ,balance and body movements when one is coming at you, to lessen the impact and to get you into the safest position to continue the fight; A machine cant help with that stuff and it must be determined whether it may eventually breed a habit that may work against that too.

Im not knocking it out of contentiont here, Im just saying every invention gets slapped in between the scales of justice, you have to take the knocks as well as the slaps on the back and adjust and learn from each.