Most Improved Fighters

Since they first broke on the...title scene. Obviously prospects improve into contenders but what guys have really either added or rounded out there skill sets significantly since first bursting onto the title scene.

The obvious two who jump to mind are the two fighting each other in December, Manny Pacquiao and Miguel Cotto.

With Pacquiao it's plain as day to see, it would be rough to say he's 1 dimensional even when he beat Barrera but just watched his fight in San Francisco versus Agapito Sanchez and it's amazing how one dimensional he was. The left was basically it for Pacquiao and stayed that way, his defense wasn't anything special and while the speed and power combination was there,his balance wasn't. Just remarkable how much he has improved under Freddy Roach. People who say Roach is overrated and just stumbled upon Pacquiao are just in plain denial. Look at the work he has done on Pac's in/out movement, balance, punch arsenal/selection, composure he has really become a different fighter.

Cotto is much the same, perhaps not as dramatically improved but he did add a whole new skillset. He now has a jab that is among boxing's best, he has learned how to win rounds, do more then just mindlessly go forward,ect. Look at his approach in the Ricardo Torres fight,which was mindless just walk the guy down, fire punches, wear him down. He won a firefight in that one. Fast forward to the Carlos Quintana fight and that was the beginning of the turnaround that saw him outbox Shane Mosley down the stretch of their fight.

Another one, Timothy Bradley. I got to give him credit, same thing go back to the pre-Witter days,I was never impressed all that much with Bradley. I thought he was lethargic sometimes even now he is one of the better high energy, high output fighters in boxing. He's done a good job shortening his punches and his speed has definitely increased, and by a good measure too.

Thoughts?

I know alot of people, me included don't care for him but John Ruiz has improved since his ko to David Tua the only people to really convincingly beat the guy were Tua, Jones and hulked up Toney.

Hasegawa has made quite a notable improvement over the last year, by using better form on his punches.

I think the fighters who do best in this particular scenario are the ones who are forced to rely more on their boxing abilities rather than their athletic abilities though age or just moving up a few weight classes. (or both)

Bernard Hopkins & James Toney are two that spring to mind ???

Excuse me, while I haven't been up on my boxing like before so here are some that come to mind.

Toshiaki Nishioka - Talk about grabbing the bull from the horns. This dude is the real deal IMO. Would love to see him fight Rafa Marquez.

Edgar Sosa - He loses early in his carrer to "Archie" Solis, "Chango" Vargas and "Nino" Romero. Then beats Viloria and is currently working on his 11th defense of his title and fights 4 times a year. However I think like DPDL he's overworking himself. I think 3 fights a year is fine.

Anselmo Moreno - What a calm and collected fighter he is. You don't see him panic and you see him so laid back. At times maybe too relaxed but nonetheless he get's the job done. His style somewhat reminds me of Sweet Pea but minus the flashyness.

Steven Luevano - I still can't believe this is the same little scrawny kid I used to see weekly on Solo Boxeo de Miller. Not only has he vastly improved but he's def. one of the better counter punchers out there.

Definately agree with Jimboogie, Hopkins really stepped up in class. I know alot of people have been talking down the Jones rematch and I'll admit it won't be the greatest benchmark but to see how effective Hopkins counters this time around alone is peaking my interest.

tomasz ademek went to being exciting fighter to being one of the best
deandre latimore even though had a bad last fight i still think he carries some momentum
andre berto always had the talent showing he's tuff he can give and take last fight fought smart

Gotta agree with Adamek. He had the floor wiped with him by Dawson and then stepped up to Cruiser, beat an average champ in O'Neill Bell and then came into the limelight after an epic with Cunningham and destroying an unbeated Jonathan Banks. Massive improvement.

I gotta say Mundine has improved massively. He was pretty much a noone after losing to Siaca and Kessler. Come back stong and won his last 14 including impressive wins against Soliman twice and an unbeaten Geale.

Pacquiaos the obvious answer. To go from a complete standard local fighter with a couple of losses to the greatest fighter on the planet is unique and very special.

By the end of his career lewis had gone from a fighter with quite a few flaws in his technique to the finished article.

Calzaghe was unique in that every time he stepped into the ring he was able to up his game that extra 10-15% when required.

Wladimir Klitschko...went from heir apparent to having people calling for him to retire after 2 KO losses to now being the most dominant figure in the heavyweight division. It's rare that anyone wins a round vs him these days.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Wladimir Klitschko...went from heir apparent to having people calling for him to retire after 2 KO losses to now being the most dominant figure in the heavyweight division. It's rare that anyone wins a round vs him these days.

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words "dominant" and "heavyweight" combined is hardly a major accomplishment nowadays is it?

Pacquiaos fought more names in the last 2 years than Wlad has in his entire career!

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Originally Posted by jahmez

Definately agree with Jimboogie, Hopkins really stepped up in class. I know alot of people have been talking down the Jones rematch and I'll admit it won't be the greatest benchmark but to see how effective Hopkins counters this time around alone is peaking my interest.

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Hopkins was better at 28 than he is now. He was just in with the greatest boxer of his time who made it hard to counter. James Toney was probably the best counter puncher in the sport when he fought Jones, but he couldn't get anything off either!

As for most improved especially in the last 12 months although I hate to say it Amir Khan!

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

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Originally Posted by jahmez

Definately agree with Jimboogie, Hopkins really stepped up in class. I know alot of people have been talking down the Jones rematch and I'll admit it won't be the greatest benchmark but to see how effective Hopkins counters this time around alone is peaking my interest.

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Hopkins was better at 28 than he is now. He was just in with the greatest boxer of his time who made it hard to counter. James Toney was probably the best counter puncher in the sport when he fought Jones, but he couldn't get anything off either!

As for most improved especially in the last 12 months although I hate to say it Amir Khan!

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Disagree, Hopkins was would you believe it a puncher at that time, like Calzaghe I feel he reached his peak in his mid-30s. I would've loved to see a rematch in 2001/02. Toney may or may not have been the best counterpuncher in boxing, but he was certainly starting his career as the best fast-food customer in the sport.

I'd say Pacquiao, Hopkins, Cotto, Hasegawa & Adamek are the most obvious current ones for substantial improvement from their first title-winning days.

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

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Originally Posted by jahmez

Definately agree with Jimboogie, Hopkins really stepped up in class. I know alot of people have been talking down the Jones rematch and I'll admit it won't be the greatest benchmark but to see how effective Hopkins counters this time around alone is peaking my interest.

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Hopkins was better at 28 than he is now. He was just in with the greatest boxer of his time who made it hard to counter. James Toney was probably the best counter puncher in the sport when he fought Jones, but he couldn't get anything off either!

As for most improved especially in the last 12 months although I hate to say it Amir Khan!

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He was clearly not at his peak though. Compared to now, meh he's 45, he's smarter but has declined physically, granted not as much as you would think for a 45 year old.

Most recently I would have to say Amir Khan, I don't think he would have stood a chance against Koltenik in his old style.

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Originally Posted by amat

Since they first broke on the...title scene. Obviously prospects improve into contenders but what guys have really either added or rounded out there skill sets significantly since first bursting onto the title scene.

The obvious two who jump to mind are the two fighting each other in December, Manny Pacquiao and Miguel Cotto.

With Pacquiao it's plain as day to see, it would be rough to say he's 1 dimensional even when he beat Barrera but just watched his fight in San Francisco versus Agapito Sanchez and it's amazing how one dimensional he was. The left was basically it for Pacquiao and stayed that way, his defense wasn't anything special and while the speed and power combination was there,his balance wasn't. Just remarkable how much he has improved under Freddy Roach. People who say Roach is overrated and just stumbled upon Pacquiao are just in plain denial. Look at the work he has done on Pac's in/out movement, balance, punch arsenal/selection, composure he has really become a different fighter.

Cotto is much the same, perhaps not as dramatically improved but he did add a whole new skillset. He now has a jab that is among boxing's best, he has learned how to win rounds, do more then just mindlessly go forward,ect. Look at his approach in the Ricardo Torres fight,which was mindless just walk the guy down, fire punches, wear him down. He won a firefight in that one. Fast forward to the Carlos Quintana fight and that was the beginning of the turnaround that saw him outbox Shane Mosley down the stretch of their fight.

Another one, Timothy Bradley. I got to give him credit, same thing go back to the pre-Witter days,I was never impressed all that much with Bradley. I thought he was lethargic sometimes even now he is one of the better high energy, high output fighters in boxing. He's done a good job shortening his punches and his speed has definitely increased, and by a good measure too.

Thoughts?

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I always thought Cotto had the skills he is currently showing more of. I mean, he had an extensive amateur career and is probably the most decorated Puerto Rican amateur in history. That's a lot of boxing. It's just that there were times during his youth and inexperience as a pro that Cotto made questionable decisions, perhaps egged on by his hometown crowd (such as his decision to abandon all defense and slug it out with Chop Chop in Puerto Rico), or his lack of regard for his opponents' punching power (such as against Ricardo Torres). At this point, I always felt he was believing the hype about himself and wanted to KO everyone while forgetting that "slow and steady wins the race." Since then, he has been more deliberate and methodical and if he approaches Manny this way, I don't see how he can lose.

Totally agree on Bradley Amat.Taking strides against recent top level comp,headbutt or no headbutt.Another to me,though eartly is Joseph Agbeko vs Darchinyan...that shocked the shite outta me,his controlled boxing and gameplan.

vic darchiniyan, gotta throw manny pac in there i guess.

the obvious one is Pacquiao, anyone who doesn't admit it is blind

but well Cotto, Katsidis to a certain point, and Darchinyan deserve a mention

Anyone think... just maybe Paul Williams? He went from pitty pat paul to putting some snap on the end of his punches for a change.

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

words "dominant" and "heavyweight" combined is hardly a major accomplishment nowadays is it?

Pacquiaos fought more names in the last 2 years than Wlad has in his entire career!

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#1 That depends on who you ask....ask Audley Harrison how difficult it is to be dominant in the heavyweight division.

#2 That's because Pacquiao has the freedom to move up in weight and chase challenges, Wlad can ONLY fight at heavyweight.

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Originally Posted by Rican

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Originally Posted by amat

Since they first broke on the...title scene. Obviously prospects improve into contenders but what guys have really either added or rounded out there skill sets significantly since first bursting onto the title scene.

The obvious two who jump to mind are the two fighting each other in December, Manny Pacquiao and Miguel Cotto.

With Pacquiao it's plain as day to see, it would be rough to say he's 1 dimensional even when he beat Barrera but just watched his fight in San Francisco versus Agapito Sanchez and it's amazing how one dimensional he was. The left was basically it for Pacquiao and stayed that way, his defense wasn't anything special and while the speed and power combination was there,his balance wasn't. Just remarkable how much he has improved under Freddy Roach. People who say Roach is overrated and just stumbled upon Pacquiao are just in plain denial. Look at the work he has done on Pac's in/out movement, balance, punch arsenal/selection, composure he has really become a different fighter.

Cotto is much the same, perhaps not as dramatically improved but he did add a whole new skillset. He now has a jab that is among boxing's best, he has learned how to win rounds, do more then just mindlessly go forward,ect. Look at his approach in the Ricardo Torres fight,which was mindless just walk the guy down, fire punches, wear him down. He won a firefight in that one. Fast forward to the Carlos Quintana fight and that was the beginning of the turnaround that saw him outbox Shane Mosley down the stretch of their fight.

Another one, Timothy Bradley. I got to give him credit, same thing go back to the pre-Witter days,I was never impressed all that much with Bradley. I thought he was lethargic sometimes even now he is one of the better high energy, high output fighters in boxing. He's done a good job shortening his punches and his speed has definitely increased, and by a good measure too.

Thoughts?

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I always thought Cotto had the skills he is currently showing more of. I mean, he had an extensive amateur career and is probably the most decorated Puerto Rican amateur in history. That's a lot of boxing. It's just that there were times during his youth and inexperience as a pro that Cotto made questionable decisions, perhaps egged on by his hometown crowd (such as his decision to abandon all defense and slug it out with Chop Chop in Puerto Rico), or his lack of regard for his opponents' punching power (such as against Ricardo Torres). At this point, I always felt he was believing the hype about himself and wanted to KO everyone while forgetting that "slow and steady wins the race." Since then, he has been more deliberate and methodical and if he approaches Manny this way, I don't see how he can lose.

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I almost feel glad that a Cotto fan just said that. I can't agree enough!!!

I feel it's all down to the testicular fortitude and the whiskers of the guy infront of him... If Cotto truely belives he can blast his way out of trouble, then he just keeps on banging away.

'Tis the same reason why he's putting little Pacqauio to sleep :)

Not being a dick or anything but most of the ones being mentioned are the obvious I thought we were going for the OTHER fighters.

Humberto Soto is one guy who just seems to always be getting better to me. I think he will shock some people when he gets up to Lightweight

As for Cotto... if only I could revive some of threads for you guys to read some of the things that we're said about him...

- Robot
- 1 dimensional
- Glass chin
- Wont go far
- He'll be KO'd in less then 20 fights

I can go on and on....

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

As for Cotto... if only I could revive some of threads for you guys to read some of the things that we're said about him...

- Robot
- 1 dimensional
- Glass chin
- Wont go far
- He'll be KO'd in less then 20 fights

I can go on and on....

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well up to certain point you can say Katsidis has improved since his fight with Casamayor

There are a lot of guys where it's too early to tell if they have improved Mick. Amir Kahn, Tavoris Cloud, Andy Lee, Breidis Prescott, ...there is a lot of RAW talent out there that needs to be polished up. And there are a lot of guys who have just recently lost and haven't had the chance to get a second shot to improve.

Wlad, Pac, Cotto...those guys had serious questions posed to them about how they could do at the top and all 3 have answered back with good if not great results.

Guys that need to show improvement right now: Chad Dawson, John Duddy, Alfredo Angulo, etc.

IMO Duddy could be a serious contender at middleweight vs the right guys...bar Williams he would do ok vs the current guys at the top of the division if he can block a few punches.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

IMO Duddy could be a serious contender at middleweight vs the right guys...bar Williams he would do ok vs the current guys at the top of the division if he can block a few punches.

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Gotta disagree. Duddys got heart no doubt but I don't think he beats the top guys. I'm not sure he can beat Karmazin, Sylvester or Canclaux. I can see him in blood bath vs. David Lopez and a war vs. Miguel Espino fights where he's got the upper hand and can win.

It wasn't that long ago that Karmazin got KO'd by Alex Bunema, Sylvester got demolished by Asikanin and schooled by Sturm. I haven't seen Canclaux so I can't say how he'd do vs him.

Duddy has heart and he can put his punches together pretty good. I figured Duddy's best chances were at 154, but 160 isn't that deep right now.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

It wasn't that long ago that Karmazin got KO'd by Alex Bunema, Sylvester got demolished by Asikanin and schooled by Sturm. I haven't seen Canclaux so I can't say how he'd do vs him.

Duddy has heart and he can put his punches together pretty good. I figured Duddy's best chances were at 154, but 160 isn't that deep right now.

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Williams, Sturm, Pavlik, even Mora all beat Duddy, he's just not too good, his defense sucks, and he's slower than he thinks he is (keeps his hands too low), he fights a dumb fight 9 times out of 10

Well if you bothered to read my original post about this I said "bar Williams"...but Pavlik hasn't fought in a while AND he is rumored to have various issues aside from just the broken hand. Sturm is a little middleweight and Sergio Mora is a bastard and other than that I won't speak of him.

I just say Duddy has a good chance, it's not a deep division.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Well if you bothered to read my original post about this I said "bar Williams"...but Pavlik hasn't fought in a while AND he is rumored to have various issues aside from just the broken hand. Sturm is a little middleweight and Sergio Mora is a bastard and other than that I won't speak of him.

I just say Duddy has a good chance, it's not a deep division.

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Mora might be a bastard, but his only loss came to the late great Vernon Forrest whom he beat to become an actual legit world champion, not to some washed up journeyman :-\

Mora also has a draw with Elvin Ayala and two very close fights with Peter Manfredo Jr. so let's not act like he's invincible.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Mora also has a draw with Elvin Ayala and two very close fights with Peter Manfredo Jr. so let's not act like he's invincible.

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Exactly and his win against Forrest was damn close and Forrest was nowhere near the fighter that beat Mosley when he fought Mora. To me he was never the same after the Mayorga fights!

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by Lyle

It wasn't that long ago that Karmazin got KO'd by Alex Bunema, Sylvester got demolished by Asikanin and schooled by Sturm. I haven't seen Canclaux so I can't say how he'd do vs him.

Duddy has heart and he can put his punches together pretty good. I figured Duddy's best chances were at 154, but 160 isn't that deep right now.

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Williams, Sturm, Pavlik, even Mora all beat Duddy, he's just not too good, his defense sucks, and he's slower than he thinks he is (keeps his hands too low), he fights a dumb fight 9 times out of 10

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I forgot to list Mora but yeah I agree with you on all counts...
Duddy get's beat.