Things that Pac does that I think would bother Floyd

First I'm probably still leaning towards Floyd, anybody with his defensive skills probably has to be the favorite.

But

1)Southpaw-Best southpaw Floyd's ever fought which isn't a shock since he's up there with Pernell as the best ever.

Floyd's defense is set up beautifully for conventional straight punching right handers. He pull counters the jab (which to be fair he could still probably do to Manny although maybe not as easily), he shoulder rolls the right hand, while his left hand is usually down that's ok cause he keeps his right hand glued to his chin to block conventional left hooks. He also protects the body well on both sides. So obviously there just aren't a ton of options.

But against a left hander it doesn't work quite as well.

The right hand glued to the chin doesn't work against right hooks, obviously. It doesn't really protect against straight left hands fully either. Keeping the left hand down to shoulder roll right hands is fine but it doesn't work the same against right hooks (and especially ones thrown from the odd angles that Pac does)

I'm a Pacquaio fan but Mayweather's people have let it be clearly known that they don't like him fighting left handers, its pretty simple why, he's just not set up for left handers like he is for right handers. Two fights he's had in the recent past against left handers, Corley and Judah, and he was hit more cleanly in both than he almost ever has. Granted he was kind of hyper agressive for him in the Corley fight but Pacquaio is on another level compared to those guys.

He's also got great reflexes so its not like he's totally lost fighting left handers but that's where Pacquaio's speed comes in, he would IMO be caught more in this fight than he ever has been if they're not always gigantic flush punches.

2)Angles-Floyd like I was saying earlier is perfectly set up for not only right handers but conventional punchers, Manny is anything but conventional. Floyd I don't think loves right hooks and they come at odd angles and very fast.

3)Footspeed and footwork-This kind of plays into angles as Manny is great at bouncing side to side and throwing from angles. But guys like Floyd and Hopkins eat up slow footed guys that need to be set to punch. Obviously Manny is not slow footed and he doesn't need to be set to punch. Hatton's footspeed was one of his best assets against Floyd cause he could get in on him but he languished on the inside and Floyd was just better than him there. Manny wouldn't languish on the inside, he would bounce in, bounce out, move side to side and throw from angles. Its good that he's not lunging in so much anymore but its even worse for a heavy footed guy (ala JMM) who has to shuffle forward, set and jab cause its just easy for Floyd to take on little step back, counter the first punch and slip away.

Bit odd but as I type this I realize some of the problems Calzaghe posed for Hopkins are some I'm thinking of here. Quick feet, no need to set to punch, totally unconventional punch angles, southpaw stance (which Bernard is actually more suited to deal with than Floyd), volume and speed.

And then there's power although power against Floyd without other things is almost meaningless hence why I'm not talking about it as much.

In a nutshell, this is why I've said for a while that Pacqauio is probably the toughest challenge for Floyd outside of I guess Paul Williams, tougher than Cotto (way to slow footed, too conventional and not enough power to turn the fight with one punch and he'd need it cause no way he wins a decision and he doesn't land enough to wear Floyd down) and really Mosley too.

Fuck that was long winded, too much like Bilbo, and probably inaccurate, way too much like Bilbo.

Nice post. Almost similar an idea to what I said in another thread, but not as technical as yours.

Manny is so unorthodox. How will Floyd prepare for that?

Floyd is already making excuses though. If I get paid 70 million to fight and lose, I really don't lose. Floyd knows he can't mess with the pac man. Floyd will probably wait for Manny to fight Mosely, Williams and Margarito first and then once Manny is worn down, Floyd will step up. I guess the fight will happen like in 2012 ;D

Actually pull countering the southpaw jab would definitely be harder if Manny does it from an angle with right foot outside of Floyd's. The pull counter right sets up much more clearly with a left jab.

Very good post, I agree on absolutely everything and those were my immediate thoughts following. May I also add something else that Manny does better then anybody in boxing, punch on the way out which just makes him essentially impossible to counter at times unless you are comfortable which getting hit by a punch you simply can not see. If there was one thing I think the top boxers of today just don't do as much, punch on the way out or as your opponent is moving out. Mosley and Pacquiao are really the only guys who do it very consistently. Why not throw a right hook when you are moving away and you see that you are getting nothing in retreat. The way Pacquiao moves out with the right hook reminds me of the way Pernell Whitaker would end combinations on a jab moving backwards. Anyone who thinks this will be a "decimation" is clearly drinking some strong ass kool-aid. Pacquiao simply isn't the raw one dimensional fighter he used to be, he's thrived at this weight and is clearly a better fighter then the one that let an old Barrera hang around 12 rounds with him. Could you imagine if he fought with that type of movement against Barrera the second time? Could have been ugly. He's not the same guy who Juan Manuel Marquez dropped a close decision to either. I think he's really flourished into one of the greatest ever since his ascent in weight. The Cotto fight was just icing on the cake for me. That was a good fighter in Cotto, essentially the same fighter that fought Zab Judah and Mosley, whether people want to admit it or not. Cotto fought a pretty good fight all things considered. Pacquiao will give Mayweather problems the way no one ever has. I could definitely envision Pacquiao winning exchanges because he is on his toes constantly like OumaFan said.

Unbelievable fight this could be a true Hagler-Leonard/Ali-Frazier of our generation. Very good post, people (Majesty) should take notice.

Agree, and not enough fighters these days stay on their toes (a guy like Zab really needed to be an on his toes guy), his footwork and footspeed is an underrated thing here, and I think an underrated thing in general. I said before that I liked Cotto, have never rooted against him till this fight but the only thing I would be disappointed by if Cotto won is that we wouldn't see Pacquaio-Mayweather and I just really think that even at his best Cotto didn't match up well with Floyd.

He would have had to have been able to turn the fight with one punch and I doubt he would have been able too.

And Cotto was good Saturday for a while, he even did well in the fourth. Don't exchange with Pacquaio though, not the way to go. And I think Cotto made a mistake trainer wise. But it probably wouldn't have mattered, he just wasn't blessed with some of the gifts Pacquaio was, nothing to be ashamed of.

Great insights there mate.
Let me add my thoughts here. I guess Floyd will have problems if pacman become so relentless with his attacks. Floyd can always slipped out of danger and protect himself against relatively slower fighters. But against Pacman, its a different story.

Hatton, Judah, Dela Hoya wer able to tag him in several occasions, but he will have a different experience if Pacman tags him with wild combination from all those weird angles. The pressure Manny can apply is something that all his previous opponents were not able to withstand. I like to see how that pressure will work on Floyd.

Yeah well in the short time I boxed, 2 different gyms, both of them taught kids to push off your heels. A lot of guys could benefit from being on their toes more, good one with Zab.

Cotto fought really well, I'm not sure how much difference the trainer would have made, he established the jab which I thought was the right thing to do. Maybe if he used it more in the way he did against Mosley where he used it more to neutralize Mosley's offense rather then set up his own. I'm sure you can nitpick but just as I thought before the fight, Cotto was the constant and Manny was more of the wild card. He was more like an Ace in the hole Saturday night. Pacquiao's face was damaged and his ear drum broken, obviously Cotto was able to inflict at least some punishment.

Also Mayweather would be all bad for Cotto, he would just get plainly outboxed imo.

Mayweather is going to pick Manny apart. You guys are looking at all of Manny's strenghts, but its his weaknesses that are glaring and what Mayweather will exploit. They are both great athletes, but Mayweather is far better technically, and if you are one of the very few fights good enough and quick enough Manny is wide open to be countered. At the fight I was amazed how much difficulty Manny had landing punches effectively when Cotto was moving away. I mean when Cotto was fighting intelligently he was hitting Manny way more than he was getting hit, but when he started to open up thats when Manny with his superior speed was able to change the tide. A lot of Manny's combinations simply hit Cotto's gloves. It wasn't until Cotto started getting sloppy defensively that Manny was able to counter and hurt him, and after that it was all over because Cotto can't win hurt, at least not against a guy he can't hurt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ***********

...once Manny is worn down, Floyd will step up

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Pretty much what Pac did vs ODLH, right? :rolleyes:

Floyd was outboxing Oscar for most of the fight, its just most people were too blind to see it.

Manny has the ability to look great, even better than Floyd against a lot of fighters, but when they match up, a lot of the things that are strengths against anyone else will be huge weaknesses against Mayweather.

Duran vs Leonard 1 or 2?

Manny's power has to be taken into consideration. Mayweather will hit Pacquiao but Pacquiao will hit him too.

Damn, Ouma, it actually sounds like you know what you're talking about there. Interesting post. Good point about the lefties giving Floyd problems and how his defence may be more vulnerable.


Naturally it's now a given it will be a complete shutout for Floyd.

50-50 FLOYD VS. PAC

Floyd may look good coz he's fighting a LW champion in his comeback.

a shorter hands 1st timer Welter, a shorter lightweight counter puncher Marquez vs. a longer counter puncher Welter Floyd? guess who wins?

great points. i think the footwork and angles would bother floyd the most. but great thread ouma. brave for you to put it out there knowing youll hear it from the floyd fans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

First I'm probably still leaning towards Floyd, anybody with his defensive skills probably has to be the favorite.

But

1)Southpaw-Best southpaw Floyd's ever fought which isn't a shock since he's up there with Pernell as the best ever.

Floyd's defense is set up beautifully for conventional straight punching right handers. He pull counters the jab (which to be fair he could still probably do to Manny although maybe not as easily), he shoulder rolls the right hand, while his left hand is usually down that's ok cause he keeps his right hand glued to his chin to block conventional left hooks. He also protects the body well on both sides. So obviously there just aren't a ton of options.

But against a left hander it doesn't work quite as well.

The right hand glued to the chin doesn't work against right hooks, obviously. It doesn't really protect against straight left hands fully either. Keeping the left hand down to shoulder roll right hands is fine but it doesn't work the same against right hooks (and especially ones thrown from the odd angles that Pac does)

I'm a Pacquaio fan but Mayweather's people have let it be clearly known that they don't like him fighting left handers, its pretty simple why, he's just not set up for left handers like he is for right handers. Two fights he's had in the recent past against left handers, Corley and Judah, and he was hit more cleanly in both than he almost ever has. Granted he was kind of hyper agressive for him in the Corley fight but Pacquaio is on another level compared to those guys.

He's also got great reflexes so its not like he's totally lost fighting left handers but that's where Pacquaio's speed comes in, he would IMO be caught more in this fight than he ever has been if they're not always gigantic flush punches.

2)Angles-Floyd like I was saying earlier is perfectly set up for not only right handers but conventional punchers, Manny is anything but conventional. Floyd I don't think loves right hooks and they come at odd angles and very fast.

3)Footspeed and footwork-This kind of plays into angles as Manny is great at bouncing side to side and throwing from angles. But guys like Floyd and Hopkins eat up slow footed guys that need to be set to punch. Obviously Manny is not slow footed and he doesn't need to be set to punch. Hatton's footspeed was one of his best assets against Floyd cause he could get in on him but he languished on the inside and Floyd was just better than him there. Manny wouldn't languish on the inside, he would bounce in, bounce out, move side to side and throw from angles. Its good that he's not lunging in so much anymore but its even worse for a heavy footed guy (ala JMM) who has to shuffle forward, set and jab cause its just easy for Floyd to take on little step back, counter the first punch and slip away.

Bit odd but as I type this I realize some of the problems Calzaghe posed for Hopkins are some I'm thinking of here. Quick feet, no need to set to punch, totally unconventional punch angles, southpaw stance (which Bernard is actually more suited to deal with than Floyd), volume and speed.

And then there's power although power against Floyd without other things is almost meaningless hence why I'm not talking about it as much.

In a nutshell, this is why I've said for a while that Pacqauio is probably the toughest challenge for Floyd outside of I guess Paul Williams, tougher than Cotto (way to slow footed, too conventional and not enough power to turn the fight with one punch and he'd need it cause no way he wins a decision and he doesn't land enough to wear Floyd down) and really Mosley too.

Fuck that was long winded, too much like Bilbo, and probably inaccurate, way too much like Bilbo.

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Manny will be in tough on the outside due to Floyd's reach and will have to be careful on the inside as Floyd loves breaking the rules there.

If Roach and camp can get a decent ref who will not allow Floyd to manipulate the inside with elbows and forearms, Manny's chances increase quite a bit. There is no question he will face a storm against Floyd, but Floyd will be facing one in him also. Manny is not like any other fighter Floyd has faced. He changes direction and angles on a dime and he brings non stop perpetual motion. It is a fight that could go either way in my opinion. Floyd has more skills, but never fights to his potential. He has let many fighters enjoy some success against him that should not have. He can be inactive and sometimes downright lazy in there.

Manny he will facing someone that is Marquez X 2. Now Floyd's defense is infinitely better than Marquez and he is quite a bit faster also. The only advantage Marquez had over Floyd is volume and combination punching. Manny had trouble with Marquez as Marquez can be a wolverine on the inside with vicious combination countering. He will not suffter that against floyd but will run into elbows etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Mayweather is going to pick Manny apart. You guys are looking at all of Manny's strenghts, but its his weaknesses that are glaring and what Mayweather will exploit. They are both great athletes, but Mayweather is far better technically, and if you are one of the very few fights good enough and quick enough Manny is wide open to be countered. At the fight I was amazed how much difficulty Manny had landing punches effectively when Cotto was moving away. I mean when Cotto was fighting intelligently he was hitting Manny way more than he was getting hit, but when he started to open up thats when Manny with his superior speed was able to change the tide. A lot of Manny's combinations simply hit Cotto's gloves. It wasn't until Cotto started getting sloppy defensively that Manny was able to counter and hurt him, and after that it was all over because Cotto can't win hurt, at least not against a guy he can't hurt.

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;D Of course I am, the thread's titled "Things that Pac does that I think would bother Floyd" not "Manny's such a fuckup, look at all these things he can't do right"

I am fully aware that Manny does somethings that Floyd can exploit. I am still leaning towards Floyd after all, my only point was this is the first time in like forever that I'm seriously considering picking somebody against Floyd and here's why.

Cotto was straight out running from Manny after the sixth, its almost impossible to look good and accurate against somebody like that all the time. Manny still landed enough to punish Cotto in most of those rounds outside of the tenth which he seemed to kind of take off. Anyway Floyd's probably not going to be fighting like that (his reputation as a runner is overblown) so it doesn't really matter here. You obviously don't think so either. Overall I'd say you are giving too much credit to Cotto when he was fighting smart. He fought as good a fight as he could early but after the second round I just got a sense that Manny was kind of toying with him in a way. Tested his power a little, fought flat footed more than usual and more than he probably should have but basically when he decided to kick ass he would.

I think you mentioned something in another thread about how Floyd will keep a high guard and come forward and throw rights against Manny. He definitely might do that but I wouldn't say he'd necessarily absolutely do it against Manny just cause he's done it against other southpaws. The other southpaws he's fought lately, Judah and Corley, are different than Manny and very similar to each other. Neither really wants to take the lead and come forward, and neither are impose their wills on guys type fighters, they like to sit back, move a little and counter. Plus the Corley fight was a bit of an anomaly anyway, Floyd was hyper agressive in that fight from the very start, maybe because he didn't really respect Corley, maybe he wanted to make a splash at 140, maybe it was a combination of things. Whatever it was, it wasn't normal procedure for him. And either way Floyd definitely is more comfortable, far more comfortable, fighting righties.

I just think that if you look at Manny and Floyd, Mayweather has virtually no weaknesses in boxing, while Manny still does. Usually his gifts and offensive style more than compensate for those weaknesses but we have seen great fighter with similar mentalities to Floyd give Manny a lot of problems, and they were far less adept in fighting that way than Mayweather is.

The reason I don't believe Mayweather would move away from Manny is because if the fight went to a decision judges would give it to Manny purely on aggresion. Manny is so much better when he can get you on the ropes or catch you coming in foolishly. I don't think Mayweather is dumb enough to let Manny fight his fight, thats not how Mayweather fights. I think that based on their styles it easier to take Manny's fight out of the game than it is Mayweather because he is the more multi faceted fighter which is why I think Marquez possed so many problems for Manny.