How is it possible to win a 147 title belt below the welterweight limit?

Well first of all this is not an anti-pac thread. I feel Pac would of done the same at 147. I just don't see how he could have won the 147 title at 145.. Usually when a boxer comes 1 or 2 pounds under the limit the titles are not on the line. Which leads me to my question.. What are the rules, can you fight for the 147 title at 140 ? First of all catchweights suck but to be able to win titles at heavier weights without fighting at them is B/S... This opens up all possibilities...

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Well first of all this is not an anti-pac thread. I feel Pac would of done the same at 147. I just don't see how he could have won the 147 title at 145.. Usually when a boxer comes 1 or 2 pounds under the limit the titles are not on the line. Which leads me to my question.. What are the rules, can you fight for the 147 title at 140 ? First of all catchweights suck but to be able to win titles at heavier weights without fighting at them is B/S... This opens up all possibilities...

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Still wondering this myself

no way cotto would of come in at anything less than 147 if this was at welterweight limit? They said this was a 145 catchweight, both made the weight then it was described as a welterweight title fight.

Cotto got told this is a fight in the 147pound division yet you must not go any higher than 145??????

Bilbo actually covered this very well before the fight.

There are negotiations between the two parties involved to set up
the fight. Here they will negotiate purse split, ring size, venue, and
weight requirements.

Once that is all settled then the sanctioning body gets involved.
It is up to the sanctioning body to determine if
A. The want to create some new belt to collect more sanctioning fees.
B. If the title defense fulfills the requirements so they can collect more
sanctioning fees.
C. If they want to make available an interim version of a vacant belt
so they can collect more sanctioning fees.

For A, The WBC decided they should get a cut of the pie by creating
the "Diamond Belt"

For B, The WBO determined that even though it was a catchweight fight it fell within the Welterweight limit and since Cotto had fought his mandatory in Josh Clottey earlier in the year he was fulfilling all the requirements.

For C, All of the big four already have their titles populated so the couldn't make an interim version.


While I am strongly against catchweight fights (I see no point in them with as many weight classes as there are today), they were following their rule structure, which of course is in place to make more sanctioning fees.

You don't have to weigh in at the exact weight for the fight to be a title fight. Anybody under 147 can fight for that title

It was a bullshit arrangment....that's how.

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Originally Posted by miles

It was a bullshit arrangment....that's how.

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I just feel titles should not be won at catchweights, especially the ones under the limit... A champion should not be forced to fight under his limit for his belt!.. idk :-\ i don't like the rule

You could both be 108 lbs and still fight for the WW title , HW title for that matter .
Dont forget Ray Leonard fought Donny LaLonde at a catch weight , for both the WBC LHW and WBC SM titles , so he could beat Tommy Hearns to 5 tiltes at 5 weights.
Its bullshit , but its the way it is .

& at what weight shall he defend this so called title? It's BS.

Anything from over 140lbs to 147lbs is Welterweight but how the challenger can dictate to the World Champion is beyond me i know its money and stuff but if you want his 147lbs title let they Champion weigh what he wants as long as he makes 147lbs. But it don't matter anymore the fight is done and Pacquiao won.

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Well first of all this is not an anti-pac thread. I feel Pac would of done the same at 147. I just don't see how he could have won the 147 title at 145.. Usually when a boxer comes 1 or 2 pounds under the limit the titles are not on the line. Which leads me to my question.. What are the rules, can you fight for the 147 title at 140 ? First of all catchweights suck but to be able to win titles at heavier weights without fighting at them is B/S... This opens up all possibilities...

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Still wondering this myself

no way cotto would of come in at anything less than 147 if this was at welterweight limit? They said this was a 145 catchweight, both made the weight then it was described as a welterweight title fight.

Cotto got told this is a fight in the 147pound division yet you must not go any higher than 145??????

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What weight is 145 to you then? Under what division does it come under? Welterweight innit? As far as I know anyway. Saying that if you are challenging a for a 147 title the champ should be able to come in at the limit of 147 if they wish.

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Well first of all this is not an anti-pac thread. I feel Pac would of done the same at 147. I just don't see how he could have won the 147 title at 145.. Usually when a boxer comes 1 or 2 pounds under the limit the titles are not on the line. Which leads me to my question.. What are the rules, can you fight for the 147 title at 140 ? First of all catchweights suck but to be able to win titles at heavier weights without fighting at them is B/S... This opens up all possibilities...

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It's not called 147 belt. It's called a welterweight title. Welterweight is anywhere from 141-147. The fight was negotiated at 145, so it's a welterweight fight. If you go over 147, it's called over weight!!! Got it kid????

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Well first of all this is not an anti-pac thread. I feel Pac would of done the same at 147. I just don't see how he could have won the 147 title at 145.. Usually when a boxer comes 1 or 2 pounds under the limit the titles are not on the line. Which leads me to my question.. What are the rules, can you fight for the 147 title at 140 ? First of all catchweights suck but to be able to win titles at heavier weights without fighting at them is B/S... This opens up all possibilities...

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Still wondering this myself

no way cotto would of come in at anything less than 147 if this was at welterweight limit? They said this was a 145 catchweight, both made the weight then it was described as a welterweight title fight.

Cotto got told this is a fight in the 147pound division yet you must not go any higher than 145??????

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It's because the Money man is the smaller guy. Cotto could have said NO & Fight somebody as big as him. Or he could've challenge Pac at 140 for Pac's title. We knew he can't make 140. We knew Pac can easily make 135. Only 2 lbs below welter limit were what Pac requested. JMM negotiated for 144 lbs with Floyd. This is no issue. Cotto said it's no issue. Only Cotto's Cry baby fans & Floyd fans crying about this.

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Originally Posted by Pacdbest2

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Well first of all this is not an anti-pac thread. I feel Pac would of done the same at 147. I just don't see how he could have won the 147 title at 145.. Usually when a boxer comes 1 or 2 pounds under the limit the titles are not on the line. Which leads me to my question.. What are the rules, can you fight for the 147 title at 140 ? First of all catchweights suck but to be able to win titles at heavier weights without fighting at them is B/S... This opens up all possibilities...

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It's not called 147 belt. It's called a welterweight title. Welterweight is anywhere from 141-147. The fight was negotiated at 145, so it's a welterweight fight. If you go over 147, it's called over weight!!! Got it kid????

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lol stfu you pac nut hugger... 147 is the maximum WELTER WEIGHT LIMIT not the LIGHT welter or SUPER lightweight.. if that is the case let's eliminate LIGHT and SUPER and just have a 10 pound divison class.... got it kid?

*edit replaced minimum typo*

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

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Originally Posted by Pacdbest2

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Well first of all this is not an anti-pac thread. I feel Pac would of done the same at 147. I just don't see how he could have won the 147 title at 145.. Usually when a boxer comes 1 or 2 pounds under the limit the titles are not on the line. Which leads me to my question.. What are the rules, can you fight for the 147 title at 140 ? First of all catchweights suck but to be able to win titles at heavier weights without fighting at them is B/S... This opens up all possibilities...

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It's not called 147 belt. It's called a welterweight title. Welterweight is anywhere from 141-147. The fight was negotiated at 145, so it's a welterweight fight. If you go over 147, it's called over weight!!! Got it kid????

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lol stfu you pac nut hugger... 147 is the minimum WELTER WEIGHT LIMIT not the LIGHT welter or SUPER lightweight.. if that is the case let's eliminate LIGHT and SUPER and just have a 10 pound divison class.... got it kid?

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[did you mean Maximum?] ;D

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Well first of all this is not an anti-pac thread. I feel Pac would of done the same at 147. I just don't see how he could have won the 147 title at 145.. Usually when a boxer comes 1 or 2 pounds under the limit the titles are not on the line. Which leads me to my question.. What are the rules, can you fight for the 147 title at 140 ? First of all catchweights suck but to be able to win titles at heavier weights without fighting at them is B/S... This opens up all possibilities...

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Cotto won that belt against Michael Jennings @ 146

Cotto - 146 Jennings - 146.5
WBO Welterweight title

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

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Originally Posted by Pacdbest2

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Well first of all this is not an anti-pac thread. I feel Pac would of done the same at 147. I just don't see how he could have won the 147 title at 145.. Usually when a boxer comes 1 or 2 pounds under the limit the titles are not on the line. Which leads me to my question.. What are the rules, can you fight for the 147 title at 140 ? First of all catchweights suck but to be able to win titles at heavier weights without fighting at them is B/S... This opens up all possibilities...

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It's not called 147 belt. It's called a welterweight title. Welterweight is anywhere from 141-147. The fight was negotiated at 145, so it's a welterweight fight. If you go over 147, it's called over weight!!! Got it kid????

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lol stfu you pac nut hugger... 147 is the minimum WELTER WEIGHT LIMIT not the LIGHT welter or SUPER lightweight.. if that is the case let's eliminate LIGHT and SUPER and just have a 10 pound divison class.... got it kid?

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147 is the maximum at welter Stupid!!!

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Originally Posted by BIG H

You don't have to weigh in at the exact weight for the fight to be a title fight. Anybody under 147 can fight for that title

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Sure, but in this case Miguel wasn't allowed to weigh anything over 145, so it really wasn't a WW fight. Of course he agreed to all the terms and the belt means nothing in such a big fight, but it's still a bit hokey how it was sanctioned as a WW title defense imo.

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Originally Posted by Pacdbest2

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

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Originally Posted by Pacdbest2

It's not called 147 belt. It's called a welterweight title. Welterweight is anywhere from 141-147. The fight was negotiated at 145, so it's a welterweight fight. If you go over 147, it's called over weight!!! Got it kid????

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lol stfu you pac nut hugger... 147 is the minimum WELTER WEIGHT LIMIT not the LIGHT welter or SUPER lightweight.. if that is the case let's eliminate LIGHT and SUPER and just have a 10 pound divison class.... got it kid?

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147 is the maximum at welter Stupid!!!

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It's the 147 title you fucking moron

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Originally Posted by BIG H

You don't have to weigh in at the exact weight for the fight to be a title fight. Anybody under 147 can fight for that title

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Exactly. Barney Ross defended his welterweight title weighing 142 pounds while his challenger Henry Armstrong weighed 133 1/2 pounds. The only thing I remember about the weight is that they made Armstrong gain a few pounds to make it not look like a featherweight champion was challenging for the 147 pound title, which Armstrong was.

all right, lets keep this one on the main board


I just ignore the belts for the most part personally

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

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Originally Posted by Pacdbest2

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

lol stfu you pac nut hugger... 147 is the minimum WELTER WEIGHT LIMIT not the LIGHT welter or SUPER lightweight.. if that is the case let's eliminate LIGHT and SUPER and just have a 10 pound divison class.... got it kid?

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147 is the maximum at welter Stupid!!!

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It's the 147 title you fucking moron that is why i said MINIMUM ofcourse it's the maximum aswell!

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Sorry, he's right. The minimum would be anything over 140.1lbs. The maximum is 147lbs on the dot.

If you could only weigh 147lbs, then Cotto wouldn't have been the champion because he weighed less for his last 2 fights.

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Well first of all this is not an anti-pac thread. I feel Pac would of done the same at 147. I just don't see how he could have won the 147 title at 145.. ..

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The amount of times iv seen this stupid question!!!

Anyone fighting between 140lbs and 147lbs is a fuucking welterweight!!

Thats how!!

Cotto could defend his title at 141lbs if he wanted:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by p4pking

Miguel wasn't allowed to weigh anything over 145, so it really wasn't a WW fight. .

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What was it then for fuuck sakes!! A heavyweight fight????

145lb is between 140 and 147, so its a fuucking welterweight fight!!

Cotto is the One stupid enough to agree to come in a whole 2lb lighter than need be:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

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Originally Posted by Pacdbest2

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Well first of all this is not an anti-pac thread. I feel Pac would of done the same at 147. I just don't see how he could have won the 147 title at 145.. Usually when a boxer comes 1 or 2 pounds under the limit the titles are not on the line. Which leads me to my question.. What are the rules, can you fight for the 147 title at 140 ? First of all catchweights suck but to be able to win titles at heavier weights without fighting at them is B/S... This opens up all possibilities...

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It's not called 147 belt. It's called a welterweight title. Welterweight is anywhere from 141-147. The fight was negotiated at 145, so it's a welterweight fight. If you go over 147, it's called over weight!!! Got it kid????

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lol stfu you pac nut hugger... 147 is the minimum WELTER WEIGHT LIMIT not the LIGHT welter or SUPER lightweight.. if that is the case let's eliminate LIGHT and SUPER and just have a 10 pound divison class.... got it kid?

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I don't see the point in catchweights either, but I think you're sort of both right. The weight limit for a welterweight fight is at 147, but the welterweight division by definition is anywhere between 141 and 147. Isn't a fight between A and B at 145 technically is a welterweight fight?

To be fair,

147 is the limit for a welterweight fight which means anything between 141 and 147 is a legit welterweight fight.

People can't discredit Pacquiao for making Cotto come down two pounds being that Pacquiao is a very small welterweight and Cotto is a legit welter.

Cotto looked in great shape at 145 so no excuses.

So for anyone who hasn't got it yet:

A welterweight fight is for anyone 147 or less.

Cotto was daft/ desperate enough to fight Manny to agree to have a 145 maximum for this fight. Had he had better negotiators or even cared then he could have weighed at anything up to 147.

The fact is Manny was a big money match and to do the fight he had to agree to his terms.

And yes a super flyweight could fight a heavyweight for their title.

Plus 2lbs is neither here nor there. You can shit 2lbs!

I've always though that anything within a few lbs wouldn't make all that much difference. But then havin nver boxed at a decent standard I may be a bit naive.

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Originally Posted by 0james0

So for anyone who hasn't got it yet:

A welterweight fight is for anyone 147 or less.

Cotto was daft/ desperate enough to fight Manny to agree to have a 145 maximum for this fight. Had he had better negotiators or even cared then he could have weighed at anything up to 147.

The fact is Manny was a big money match and to do the fight he had to agree to his terms.

And yes a super flyweight could fight a heavyweight for their title.

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Nowadays I don't think that's still possible, I think there was a ruling in the late 80s that you had to also meet the minimum weight requirements to fight for a title. Might have been around the time of the Leonard-Duran rubber match.

As for the lb issue, when you have to make weight, it's those last few lbs that get you. I'm not saying this is the case with Cotto, but I think if it was say Mosley, then cutting down to 145 now would be very difficult for him. It all depends on what each individual's limit is.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

You could both be 108 lbs and still fight for the WW title , HW title for that matter .
Dont forget Ray Leonard fought Donny LaLonde at a catch weight , for both the WBC LHW and WBC SM titles , so he could beat Tommy Hearns to 5 tiltes at 5 weights.
Its bullshit , but its the way it is .

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You have to be at least one weight class under in order to compete for the title. This is what Lederman said when Roy was moving up to challenge Ruiz....


But as far as pac goes...WW is 140-147 so pac was a WW. But not allowing Cotto to weigh the extra two pounds was bullshit. Not that it would have changed.

the sanctioning board have nothing to do with the contract.

If there had been no contract and they both weighed in at 145, no issue.

If cotto had weighed in at 147 and manny at 145, then the fight would still have been sanctioned as a ww title fight.

on the case of a fly going for a hw title, i think you are technically correct but think that whoever is the medical team granting the license would refuse to allow it, idue to the danger faced by the lighter man.

that being said i swear years ago i heard a rumour of naseem wearing lead in his shorts so he weighed more for some fights. perhaps i just made that up. anycase he certainly doesnt need to do that now!

also i like this guy who thinks that 147lb is the min/max weight.

we have all heard of fighters weighing in at second or third attempt, having had to sweat off the last few ounces in between attempts, but imagine this:

a fighter weighing in at the second attempt having had to go to kfc and eat a family bucket, with all the trimmings, just to get up to this min/max limit.

awesome

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Well first of all this is not an anti-pac thread. I feel Pac would of done the same at 147. I just don't see how he could have won the 147 title at 145.. Usually when a boxer comes 1 or 2 pounds under the limit the titles are not on the line. Which leads me to my question.. What are the rules, can you fight for the 147 title at 140 ? First of all catchweights suck but to be able to win titles at heavier weights without fighting at them is B/S... This opens up all possibilities...

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To my knowledge never in the history of boxing has a title not been on the line because a fighter came 2 lbs under the maximum limit.

Under the rules both could have weighed in at 141 lbs and it would have still been a legitimate welterweight fight.

The 147 limit is a MAXIMUM limit not a forced weight that both fighters must weigh.

Ok let me rephrase my question... Why set a limit for the Welterweight belt of 145 for a belt that goes up to 147? Belts should not be won at a Catch Weight ... IMO

*edit weights*

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Ok let me rephrase my question... Why set a limit for the Welterweight belt of 155 for a belt that goes up to 157? Belts should not be won at a Catch Weight ... IMO

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are you drunk? ww is 140 - 147.

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Originally Posted by the_sacred_chilli

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Ok let me rephrase my question... Why set a limit for the Welterweight belt of 155 for a belt that goes up to 157? Belts should not be won at a Catch Weight ... IMO

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are you drunk? ww is 140 - 147.

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lmfao mb it's a typo <_< 145 - 147 i meant... Belts should not be won at a Catch Weight is the message

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Ok let me rephrase my question... Why set a limit for the Welterweight belt of 155 for a belt that goes up to 157? Belts should not be won at a Catch Weight ... IMO

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I agree that catchweights are bullshit, and they never really "level the playing field". They only serve to detrimentally effect one fighter, with less bargaining power. If a fighter wants to fight at welter, they should fight at welter. These are just things I want though, not an enforcement of the rules.

However, as long as the agreed upon weight by the fighters falls WITHIN the preset weight limits AND the fighters make weight. There is no violation from the sanctioning stand point.

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Originally Posted by purtyboy

Ok let me rephrase my question... Why set a limit for the Welterweight belt of 155 for a belt that goes up to 157? Belts should not be won at a Catch Weight ... IMO

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I would rephrase it like this.

How is it possible for Cotto to win the WBO WW belt @ 146 ?
Cotto (146) - Jennings(146.5) 2/21/09


How is it possible for Pac to win the WBO WW belt @ 144?
Pac (144) - Cotto(145) 11/14/09


Because WBO/WBC/IBF/WBA... says so.

i would agree with you if it had been the champion demanding it, but it wasnt it was the challenger.

cotto signed the contract with this clause cos it made him a lot of money, or he got some other concession in return (ring size, or glove weight or something) a gamble that would have been well worth it, if it had come off. but this is something that will always happen, as boxing is business. Unlike ufc where they are centrally contracted. correct me if i am worng but dont think there have been any catchweight title fights in ufc

but fighters dont always weigh in at the limit. eg hatton - pacquiao

138/140

and this is not even taking into account the weight they put on in the last 24 hrs.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by 0james0

So for anyone who hasn't got it yet:

A welterweight fight is for anyone 147 or less.

Cotto was daft/ desperate enough to fight Manny to agree to have a 145 maximum for this fight. Had he had better negotiators or even cared then he could have weighed at anything up to 147.

The fact is Manny was a big money match and to do the fight he had to agree to his terms.

And yes a super flyweight could fight a heavyweight for their title.

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Nowadays I don't think that's still possible, I think there was a ruling in the late 80s that you had to also meet the minimum weight requirements to fight for a title. Might have been around the time of the Leonard-Duran rubber match.

As for the lb issue, when you have to make weight, it's those last few lbs that get you. I'm not saying this is the case with Cotto, but I think if it was say Mosley, then cutting down to 145 now would be very difficult for him. It all depends on what each individual's limit is.

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Don't you reckon someone would have challenged for the HW title even if they weren't in the limit , say a SMW,or Cruiser ?? Why not, 'cause you can't.

As for Pac , he is the WW champ , no problem recognising him as such as he falls within the allowable weight bracket. The problem now lies in telling someone what they have to come in at inside a specific weight category. The sanctioning bodies ar ethe ones losing the control, they need to say here's the limit deal with it.

As for the previous comment about being able to crap 2lbs so what does it matter, where would you end that, does the same apply if you come in over the limit ? Waht is the result then, does the fight go ahead does the belt stay applicable ?

140 -147 , come in where you want , win, take the title. Don't tell the other guy what to weigh he can come in anywhere he wants .

I think you guys are just covering yourselves in red tape and letting rules and regulations blind you to common sense.

The fact that Manny fought Cotto at 145 really made no difference to our enjoyment of the fight.

The important thing is that the best fight the best where possible not that the rules and regulations of a sanctioning body or the strict traditions of a weight class get fully adhered to.

We are human beings not objects. None of us live permanently and only at one fixed weight who really gives a fuck if Manny and Floyd weigh 145 lbs when they fight or 147 lbs?

As long as it's not detrimental to either fighter to lose more weight than they are safely able to I don't care what weight they fight at, I just want to see the fight.

The weight classes exist to allow smaller fighters to fight for world titles against fighters of their own weight, and thus to recognised as the best in the world in their class.

Manny and Floyd have ALREADY proven themselves the best in the world in their weight class, we don't need a sanctioning belt to tell us that. Both Floyd and Manny have been succesful in multiple weight classes so let them fight at whatever weights they want.

As long as neither fighter is drained I really don't see why anyone gives a shit. :confused: