:deadnew:
Mijares maybe and Cotto is working on it as are the Pittsburh Steelers.
Waht do you think?
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:deadnew:
Mijares maybe and Cotto is working on it as are the Pittsburh Steelers.
Waht do you think?
It was a pretty swift decent. He went from being recognized as the best boxer on the world to being considered a mediocre fighter with no chin over the span of two fights.
Jeff lacy, Jermain taylor has slipped pretty sharply too
Kassim Ouma went pretty quick
Ricky Hatton. Within 17 months he goes from being undefeated to having been knocked out twice and loses his p4p rating.
I agree that Jermaine Taylor,Jeff Lacy,Ricky Hatton.Paul williams will be next.
I'm positive that someone fell from grace faster than RJJ, but I think had Roy never gone to heavyweight in the first place then he wouldn't have lost to Tarver or anyone else at 175. He should have retired a lot sooner.
Sonny Liston went from feared Heavyweight Champ to bum pretty quickly. Cris Arreola hasn't helped himself recently.
I think Manny Pacquiao could face some harsh criticism if Floyd toys with him the way he toyed with Marquez.
Mike Tyson is another one. From February of 1990 to February of 1992 he goes from undefeated, undisputed HW champion with an aura of invincibility to prison on rape charges. Now that's hitting rock bottom!
Paul Williams next?!?Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinztaylor
Arreola Lyle? I wound't say so.
Roy has pretty much been a shell since the Tarver fight, even in victories. Just flashes of what once there. Sad but I think Jeff Lacy definitely qualifies. Jermain Taylor, even though I was never completely sold on him, seems to have just fallen apart over many tough fights. Also good calls on Ouma. What about Cristian Mijares? He sticks out recently. Hatton has been KO'd by Pacquiao. Let's not forget he also beat Malignaggi. I don't think he applies here. Cotto DEFINITELY doesn't apply.
Cris Arreola is on the Sam Peter path to bum-dom...a once feared big time puncher, got fat, let his hands get slow, has no dedication, and his chin is the only thing keeping him competitive. If Brian Minto was a little bigger and stronger then Arreola would have lost that fight, he didn't even try to use any defense and therefore all the rounds he put in vs Minto were just feeding Arreola's bad habits as a fighter.
im pretty sure you have to have already achieved something to be counted ....., arreola wasnt very good to start with and still isnt.. only thing thats changed is he lost his title shot.... he doesnt qualifyQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Considering that Roy was p4p best for so long, hadn't lost in 15 years, fighter of the decade...I'd say nobody fell faster. Its not like he had a slow decline, he completely fell off the cliff.
The thing that upset me the most about Roy is that he never, and I mean never got up from a knock down. I've been a huge fan of Roy over the years, one of the biggest. I've often thought on some levels that he was the Muhammad Ali of my generation when he as at his best. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone in boxing that had that rare combination of speed, knockout power, and flashiness when Roy was at his best. But I really wish he would stop. I'd have to disagree with one of the posters in here who said that Paul Williams will fall to the bottom fast. I just don't see that happening. I do however, see alot of great boxers tripping over their own feet running from a fight with him.
The knockout didn't make him bad. Roy was there for the taking the moment he moved down from Heavyweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe.slobotnikCan't argue with that. He had a good excuse for the first Tarver fight, Tarver II he looked not too bad, you could argue he just got caught, it happens. But after that he was unrecognizeable. I think Tarver II gave him a good taste of his own mortality, and that messed with his confidence in a big way.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
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Originally Posted by joe.slobotnikAn oft used excuse by his fans, but hardly provable. I was basing my point on the way Jones actually fought in the ring. Sure the weight loss had an effect, but there was obviously something else going on. The Jones that fought Johnson, and after that, was not the same fighter as the one that fought Tarver I & 2, not even close. But if you wanna say otherwise, go ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyThe knockout didn't make him bad. Roy was there for the taking the moment he moved down from Heavyweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe.slobotnik
the move down from HW did effect him in a big way, and then perhaps once he was ko'd once it made him more hesitant and cautious... he lost his aura of 'invincibility'
He got up from a serious knockdown against Lou Del Valle. He walked right into a straight left that dropped him like a sack of rocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by 15rounder
The thing with Roy is I dont think he ever had a light heavyweight chin, he just never got hit clean. Now that hes slower and older the punches are finding the mark easier on him. Guys with unorthodox skills that rely on tremendous speed always become ordinary overnight once they slow down. Same thing with Ali only his chin was so good he just hung in and took sustained beatings that proved nothing. Jones should have retired after Ruiz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe.slobotnikI can live with that more or less. But in the 2nd fight I thought he looked reasonably sharp. He should have had time to get back much of what he lost, Maybe not the same Roy as before the trip to HW, but still not too bad. The point being that he still had a long way to fall, in terms of performance, which is what the thread is about.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmanhattonQuote:
Originally Posted by joe.slobotnik
the move down from HW did effect him in a big way, and then perhaps once he was ko'd once it made him more hesitant and cautious... he lost his aura of 'invincibility'
you mean in the 2nd fight prioer to be knocked out ....., as has been seen before knock out like that will take something from a fighter, this the case with roy, the issue with the weight imo led to him being ko'd by tarver and it was a downward spiral from there on
It's all in the legs.
I think he means his legs are skinny which they are especially for a light heavyweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe.slobotnikYou're saying Roy had no legs in the 2nd Tarver fight?Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinch
Just the fact that he never had the physical makeup to take solid shots from a light heavy. I think he lost a step by the second Tarver fight meaning he was there to be hit cleaner.
I think Jones was slipping before he faced Tarver it wasnt only the heavyweight move scenario and Tarver has to get some credit for putting the finishing touches on Jones, but realistically with Jones age, fighting style and physical size it was bound to happen suddenly like it did and I think Tarver style would have always given Jones problems even in his prime.
And Tarver knew it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by salty trunks
Like I said stylistically I think Tarver always gives Jones trouble. He was a tall southpaw counterpuncher who refused to lead against Jones, another reason it was easier for him to expose Jones lost step.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe.slobotnikIf he was significantly diminished, it didn't show in the first two rounds of that fight, he looked pretty sharp. And it's not like he left himself open, his guard was up but but was a pinpoint shot. Some call it lucky, I ain't gonna argue against that.Quote:
Originally Posted by salty trunks
Look, I am the first to say that a prime Roy beats Tarver 9 times out of ten. But in the case of the 2nd fight KO the weight loss thing gets overplayed by many, including Roy. I'm know there are many who disagree, such is debate. It's easy to build up an argument for it, after the fact. I'm moving on.
I think the weight loss only sped up the process of Jones falling from his best because his body went through huge changes physically so I think it was a factor, but like you said not the only factor.
Sadly, I have to disagree with you, Lyle. I think Tarver just has Roy's number. Had he never gone up to heavyweight they would have fought still. Roy wouldn't have had his stamina issues from losing weight and I think he would have been great early, but Tarver would have outpointed or hurt him at some point. I think Tarver just got in Roy's head at some point because Roy's beaten guys better than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Also when you look at Montell Griffins style it kind of proves there was a way to Jones. Montell lead a little more but he still waited to counterpunch Jones with three four shots to try and offset some of Jones speed. That was giving Jones hell for a few rounds. Counterpunching was the only way to beat Jones. Noone was going to outbox him or overwhelm him, he was just too quick. You had to outsmart him and both Griffin and Tarver came up with good ways of unsettling Jones by using counterpunches taken from one of Jones moves or off of punches he threw.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZillaSadly, I have to disagree with you, Lyle. I think Tarver just has Roy's number. Had he never gone up to heavyweight they would have fought still. Roy wouldn't have had his stamina issues from losing weight and I think he would have been great early, but Tarver would have outpointed or hurt him at some point. I think Tarver just got in Roy's head at some point because Roy's beaten guys better than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I wouldn't say Griffin had the formula. I mean, he was able to frustrate a distracted Jones who was trying to get into rap and playing a little too much basketball and worrying over friends who'd been crippled in the ring. Once Montel got a completely focused Roy I would say scrap everything he did right the first time around considering THAT result.Quote:
Originally Posted by salty trunksAlso when you look at Montell Griffins style it kind of proves there was a way to Jones. Montell lead a little more but he still waited to counterpunch Jones with three four shots to try and offset some of Jones speed. That was giving Jones hell for a few rounds. Counterpunching was the only way to beat Jones. Noone was going to outbox him or overwhelm him, he was just too quick. You had to outsmart him and both Griffin and Tarver came up with good ways of unsettling Jones by using counterpunches taken from one of Jones moves or off of punches he threw.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZillaSadly, I have to disagree with you, Lyle. I think Tarver just has Roy's number. Had he never gone up to heavyweight they would have fought still. Roy wouldn't have had his stamina issues from losing weight and I think he would have been great early, but Tarver would have outpointed or hurt him at some point. I think Tarver just got in Roy's head at some point because Roy's beaten guys better than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I didnt say formula I said a way to Jones meaning a way to hit him. I dont think Jones would have ever approached the fight with Montell like he did in the second fight if Montell hadnt given him trouble. He was uncharacteristically very offensive.
Remember he kept saying "RJ" was going to come out in the second Tarver fight, and he got knocked out.
Well he clocked Roy with a one-in-a-million punch and Roy wasn't being honest with himself or the fans. He wasn't himself. Roy was doing a lot of talking up as if he had to drag himself into the ring. I remember the Johnson fight when a gold-medal winner lent him his medal and once Roy got int he ring he mouthed the words, "I'm back." It was if he had to talk himself up for it. I don't think Roy came back at all from the HW division. He vanished.
I see you started drinking early this year Ted... :drinker:Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
Its only the 21st just a few more days for X-Mas... ;D
Would you care to elaborate why you feel RJJ hit bottom fast.
I personally don't see it.
Just to think alone he's been in the P4P rankings since 1993.
If your talking solely on recent times, he's bounced back from loses.
I just don't see RJJ as the it guy to hit bottom...
Mijares of recent times IMO is at the top of this list.
He loses to an obscure opponent who most people including myself thought he would beat. He loses not once but twice to him.
Nehomar himself has shown class and skill in his fights. Still I think Mijares should have beaten him.
Joan Guzman not only hit bottom fast having fought twice in 2 yrs and being gifted a draw.
Juan Baby Bull Diaz also comes to mind if you take into consideration he argueably got beat by Paulie twice.
a seriously weight drained RJJ still beat Tarver in the first fight. I don't think Tarver ever had ANYONE's number much less Roy's. There was no reason for Roy to even take the first fight, Tarver's gameplan was to talk shit and get Roy to fight until he was able to beat Roy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
Let's not forget Montel Griffin was a very tough fighter, he beat a couple top teir fighters.
I've seen Roy get back up after two knockdowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by 15rounder
Zab Judah? I'm not saying he was on a mountain, but he fell from somekind of goodness.
Good call...Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla
According to Majesty/Starr/Purist/BrooklyNiteQueen/PGH Angel Eyes he was an unstoppable force.
I don't think Juan Diaz or Guzman hit the "fallen fast" category. I think that Victor Ortiz is on that list. But its in terms of what he was being hyped as and what he is now. It's actually a good fall.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickI see you started drinking early this year Ted... :drinker:Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
Its only the 21st just a few more days for X-Mas... ;D
Would you care to elaborate why you feel RJJ hit bottom fast.
I personally don't see it.
Just to think alone he's been in the P4P rankings since 1993.
If your talking solely on recent times, he's bounced back from loses.
I just don't see RJJ as the it guy to hit bottom...
Mijares of recent times IMO is at the top of this list.
He loses to an obscure opponent who most people including myself thought he would beat. He loses not once but twice to him.
Nehomar himself has shown class and skill in his fights. Still I think Mijares should have beaten him.
Joan Guzman not only hit bottom fast having fought twice in 2 yrs and being gifted a draw.
Juan Baby Bull Diaz also comes to mind if you take into consideration he argueably got beat by Paulie twice.
But he was hyped as the next one. There was a guy that they were hyping not some time ago that people felt were destined to be p4p that wound up getting knocked out in the first round or something I forget his name.
But I have some that haven't been mentioned yet. Kendall Holt. Lost once to Timothy Bradley got in legal trouble, haven't seen him since. And also James Kirkland. And Antonio Margarito definately.
:cwm31:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickGood call...Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla
According to Majesty/Starr/Purist/BrooklyNiteQueen/PGH Angel Eyes he was an unstoppable force.
Really Jones takes the prize here. I remember his trainer saying that Jones slowed down a bit before he faced Tarver again so he knew what was up, but that fight was the start of Jones hitting the brick wall. He lost three in a row and was knocked out badly in two straight fights. He would have never lost to Glen Johnson at his peak. Tarver I could see always giving Jones problems, but more like he did in the first fight, not knocking him out or beating him silly like he did in the third fight.
See, I agree with you. I think the reason (as convoluted as this is going to read) Roy won the first fight was because he was weight drained. He couldn't open up like he would have and had to conserve to make it through the night. He did just enough and won. But that wasn't the case in the second fight and I feel if Tarver hadn't gotten off a lucky shot he would have still won and look at what Roy was in the 3rd fight. Just a shell content to prove he could take what Tarver had to offer and survive. I mean, Tarver ran out of gas just about near the end of the fight and Roy couldn't finish him. I don't think Tarver had anyone's number, I think Tarver was just in Roy's head. Had Roy believed he could beat Tarver he would have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lylea seriously weight drained RJJ still beat Tarver in the first fight. I don't think Tarver ever had ANYONE's number much less Roy's. There was no reason for Roy to even take the first fight, Tarver's gameplan was to talk shit and get Roy to fight until he was able to beat Roy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
Let's not forget Montel Griffin was a very tough fighter, he beat a couple top teir fighters.