Please and thank you.
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Please and thank you.
where is Miles when you need him? :rolleyes:
Miles isn't a communist, he just likes to argue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
what's Lyles excuse?Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHMiles isn't a communist, he just likes to argue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
No, I'm not really much of a communist. I think I read a book or two in my undergraduate days, but that's over a decade ago, so I have no idea about particular authors.
And I don't like to argue so much, but I will put forth my opinion if I disagree with someone.
It's like the Bat sign went off! ;D
A lack of relevant education and a low IQ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missywhat's Lyles excuse?Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHMiles isn't a communist, he just likes to argue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
j/k Lyle. Maybe.
I did read a fair bit about Lenin in a couple of books, not that I am a communist, more of a geek and very curious by nature. Read mostly about his philosophy and tad about his history in general, do you absolutely want his biography or?
For what? Arguing with people who are wrong or enjoying freedom, liberty, and a better socioeconomic status than all of the average people living in communist countries?Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
Why does everyone being LOWERED to the same level sound so good to some people???
I don't mean to derail this fine thread, but in my personal construction of socialism its about everyone having something, not about everyone having the same standard. I'm all for competition and wealth etc., but I'm also for raising the quality of life for those in society who have the least. That's all I'll say on the subject because I don't want to spark a debate here.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleFor what? Arguing with people who are wrong or enjoying freedom, liberty, and a better socioeconomic status than all of the average people living in communist countries?Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
Why does everyone being LOWERED to the same level sound so good to some people???
You are playing with fire saying things like that. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by CFHI don't mean to derail this fine thread, but in my personal construction of socialism its about everyone having something, not about everyone having the same standard. I'm all for competition and wealth etc., but I'm also for raising the quality of life for those in society who have the least. That's all I'll say on the subject because I don't want to spark a debate here.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleFor what? Arguing with people who are wrong or enjoying freedom, liberty, and a better socioeconomic status than all of the average people living in communist countries?Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
Why does everyone being LOWERED to the same level sound so good to some people???
What does it teach the poor people when the "something" they have was just aquired by the government from someone who earned it and then just handed over to them and it's not due to anything the poor people have done? Kind of a hollow victory huh? Government should not be in the business of charity on an everyday basis...I can understand if natural disasters/wars/etc happen but just to give ever single day to people who don't work and don't try hard....it just enables their behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
There is no motivating factor to work in a socialist society or a welfare state, which is why most socialist leaders have to massacre people to keep the others "motivated".
I really don't feel like engaging in a 5-page discussion in which nothing is resolved, so I will just say that I literally agree with none of what you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleWhat does it teach the poor people when the "something" they have was just aquired by the government from someone who earned it and then just handed over to them and it's not due to anything the poor people have done? Kind of a hollow victory huh? Government should not be in the business of charity on an everyday basis...I can understand if natural disasters/wars/etc happen but just to give ever single day to people who don't work and don't try hard....it just enables their behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
There is no motivating factor to work in a socialist society or a welfare state, which is why most socialist leaders have to massacre people to keep the others "motivated".
:)
OK, so which Socialist leader did NOT massacre large groups of people? Lenin's Red Revolution was not without loss of a great number of lives and for what? It's not as if the Russians ended up much better than they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Why Lenin why not focus on Mao or Stalin? Don't those guys tickle your fancy CFH? Focusing on Lenin is as pointless as focusing on Che Guavera or Leon Trotsky ;)
I'm not going to address the first part of your post for the reasons I have already mentioned, but again I do not necessarily agree with your position. First, the is a huge difference between democratic socialism, socialism, and communism. Furthermore, many so-called "communist" leaders are nothing more than dictators who use their ostensible ideologies to justify their positions. I guess I did end up briefly addressing that point, but whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleOK, so which Socialist leader did NOT massacre large groups of people? Lenin's Red Revolution was not without loss of a great number of lives and for what? It's not as if the Russians ended up much better than they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Why Lenin why not focus on Mao or Stalin? Don't those guys tickle your fancy CFH? Focusing on Lenin is as pointless as focusing on Che Guavera or Leon Trotsky ;)
As for the second part, why Lenin? Because I find him fascinating (in particular his perspectives on colonialism) and I want to learn more about him. Mao has never really interested me and I already know a lot more about Stalin than I do about Lenin. I don't think focusing on any historical figure is pointless (at least not from a historians perspective), I don't understand why you would think that was the case. I find Lenin as interesting as I do someone like Nixon, but it doesn't necessarily mean I relate to either one of them (though I do think, if not for the Vietnam War, that Nixon could have been an extremely good President, but I digress). Lenin, whether you like it or not and regardless of whether you agree with him, had a massive impact on the course of history in the 20th century, why wouldn't someone interested in history want to study him?
Damn you, you good natured Canadian! You passed up my baiting you. ;D
I understand you finding historical figures and events interesting, it's more the political views I don't understand, but that's a different topic for a different day.
Every socialist system doesn't lead to despotism, especially as socialism and communism are far different though historically linked, personally, I am not against some kind of moderate socialism a bit like in Canada but I would never accept a communist or a hardcore socialist system neither. But you're right, we're good natured:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Socialism seems to be such a dirty word in the US media, particularly in the more right wing outlets. I have no idea why really, as a socialist model is something that can be beneficial for any society.Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessEvery socialist system doesn't lead to despotism, especially as socialism and communism are far different though historically linked, personally, I am not against some kind of moderate socialism a bit like in Canada but I would never accept a communist or a hardcore socialist system neither. But you're right, we're good natured:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
There are too many -isms about. I can understand the dislike of communism, totalitarianism and fascism (which appears to be what America is becoming drawn to), but socialism, as I interpret it, is a relatively benign -ism which can actually be a cause for a lot of good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by milesSocialism seems to be such a dirty word in the US media, particularly in the more right wing outlets. I have no idea why really, as a socialist model is something that can be beneficial for any society.Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessEvery socialist system doesn't lead to despotism, especially as socialism and communism are far different though historically linked, personally, I am not against some kind of moderate socialism a bit like in Canada but I would never accept a communist or a hardcore socialist system neither. But you're right, we're good natured:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
There are too many -isms about. I can understand the dislike of communism, totalitarianism and fascism (which appears to be what America is becoming drawn to), but socialism, as I interpret it, is a relatively benign -ism which can actually be a cause for a lot of good.
yes but Miles you are stealing my money to give to welfare dodgers and the poor:o
There are bigger active thieves in society than the poor. It's too easy to blame those that can't find work, those that bankrupt the entire system deserve a little more of the blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad MissyQuote:
Originally Posted by milesSocialism seems to be such a dirty word in the US media, particularly in the more right wing outlets. I have no idea why really, as a socialist model is something that can be beneficial for any society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nameless
There are too many -isms about. I can understand the dislike of communism, totalitarianism and fascism (which appears to be what America is becoming drawn to), but socialism, as I interpret it, is a relatively benign -ism which can actually be a cause for a lot of good.
yes but Miles you are stealing my money to give to welfare dodgers and the poor:o
It's beyond me how anybody could ever accuse Obama of being a socialist. How warped has the word become? :confused:
As it has been said countless times, the left lost the battle of ideas in America a long long time ago. A socialist model as you stated is benign. However, most peoples in the US see it as something demonic leading to a pagan form of hardcore communism or something and when I hear most americans yelling against socialism, I understand how the propaganda worked well and how it did give a huge twist of sense to the real definition of socialism. For example, we have a social healthcare in Canada, we pay nothing and we can all be treated for free at the Hospital, no matter how rich or poor you are. The only thing we pay is a medical insurance of 50$ per years to cover almost any medicine you might have to take in the meantime, which cover most of the medicine from 100% to 80% of the global costs. I don't see how it is a bad thing and god knows that even if I am not rich, I am far from being part of those struggling to survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesThere are bigger active thieves in society than the poor. It's too easy to blame those that can't find work, those that bankrupt the entire system deserve a little more of the blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad MissyQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
yes but Miles you are stealing my money to give to welfare dodgers and the poor:o
It's beyond me how anybody could ever accuse Obama of being a socialist. How warped has the word become? :confused:
You don't need to tell me all this. I'm on your side, I know the facts. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessAs it has been said countless times, the left lost the battle of ideas in America a long long time ago. A socialist model as you stated is benign. However, most peoples in the US see it as something demonic leading to a pagan form of hardcore communism or something and when I hear most americans yelling against socialism, I understand how the propaganda worked well and how it did give a huge twist of sense to the real definition of socialism. For example, we have a social healthcare in Canada, we pay nothing and we can all be treated for free at the Hospital, no matter how rich or poor you are. The only thing we pay is a medical insurance of 50$ per years to cover almost any medicine you might have to take in the meantime, which cover most of the medicine from 100% to 80% of the global costs. I don't see how it is a bad thing and god knows that even if I am not rich, I am far from being part of those struggling to survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesThere are bigger active thieves in society than the poor. It's too easy to blame those that can't find work, those that bankrupt the entire system deserve a little more of the blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
It's beyond me how anybody could ever accuse Obama of being a socialist. How warped has the word become? :confused:
Hehe, yeah, I know, but it was more of a general statement for all those who are interested to the conversation than a simple and single answer to your post ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by milesYou don't need to tell me all this. I'm on your side, I know the facts. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessAs it has been said countless times, the left lost the battle of ideas in America a long long time ago. A socialist model as you stated is benign. However, most peoples in the US see it as something demonic leading to a pagan form of hardcore communism or something and when I hear most americans yelling against socialism, I understand how the propaganda worked well and how it did give a huge twist of sense to the real definition of socialism. For example, we have a social healthcare in Canada, we pay nothing and we can all be treated for free at the Hospital, no matter how rich or poor you are. The only thing we pay is a medical insurance of 50$ per years to cover almost any medicine you might have to take in the meantime, which cover most of the medicine from 100% to 80% of the global costs. I don't see how it is a bad thing and god knows that even if I am not rich, I am far from being part of those struggling to survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Optimistic much ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by CFHI don't mean to derail this fine thread, but in my personal construction of socialism its about everyone having something, not about everyone having the same standard. I'm all for competition and wealth etc., but I'm also for raising the quality of life for those in society who have the least. That's all I'll say on the subject because I don't want to spark a debate here.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleFor what? Arguing with people who are wrong or enjoying freedom, liberty, and a better socioeconomic status than all of the average people living in communist countries?Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
Why does everyone being LOWERED to the same level sound so good to some people???
Trust me, there are enough people who take advantage of the system in place in America already. There are plenty of people, able bodied, lazy adults, who get by without having ever done a day's work in their life.
They take advantage of the system, get multiple welfare checks a month, etc...all of which people who are working have to pay for. The richest people in America already support the country with the taxes they pay. Granted, it still gets a bit gluttonous near the top, but the rich are always going to remain rich because the more you raise their taxes the more ways they will find to divert money so they wont have to pay them.
Communism is a "noble" ideology but has zero real world application unless run by a dictator or totalitarian government, which will always end up in extreme corruption and a high level of atrocities.
No system is perfect, but America's faux-democracy is pretty close to the top any way you look at it.
I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Lyle. I respect your opinion but I strongly disagree with what you wrote. However, I have no wish to engage in a protracted argument on here. Not because I do not feel strongly about my beliefs or because I cannot intelligently articulate them, but because I find these types of argument on here to be frustrating and redundant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez The KillerOptimistic much ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by CFHI don't mean to derail this fine thread, but in my personal construction of socialism its about everyone having something, not about everyone having the same standard. I'm all for competition and wealth etc., but I'm also for raising the quality of life for those in society who have the least. That's all I'll say on the subject because I don't want to spark a debate here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Trust me, there are enough people who take advantage of the system in place in America already. There are plenty of people, able bodied, lazy adults, who get by without having ever done a day's work in their life.
They take advantage of the system, get multiple welfare checks a month, etc...all of which people who are working have to pay for. The richest people in America already support the country with the taxes they pay. Granted, it still gets a bit gluttonous near the top, but the rich are always going to remain rich because the more you raise their taxes the more ways they will find to divert money so they wont have to pay them.
Communism is a "noble" ideology but has zero real world application unless run by a dictator or totalitarian government, which will always end up in extreme corruption and a high level of atrocities.
No system is perfect, but America's faux-democracy is pretty close to the top any way you look at it.
I would also like to state that I am not, nor have I ever been, a communist and I do not believe in the practicality of the communist ideology. My political beliefs, though they are diverse, generally speaking are those of a social democrat and I feel this is an easily defensible ideology which, in some instances, has been proven extremely beneficial. I doubt you have any familiarity with the Canadian political system, but to put them in the local (Canadian) political context, I most frequently vote for the NDP. I hope that contextualized things.
Point taken. And no, I have zero familiarity with Canadian politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI'll say the same thing to you that I said to Lyle. I respect your opinion but I strongly disagree with what you wrote. However, I have no wish to engage in a protracted argument on here. Not because I do not feel strongly about my beliefs or because I cannot intelligently articulate them, but because I find these types of argument on here to be frustrating and redundant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez The KillerOptimistic much ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Trust me, there are enough people who take advantage of the system in place in America already. There are plenty of people, able bodied, lazy adults, who get by without having ever done a day's work in their life.
They take advantage of the system, get multiple welfare checks a month, etc...all of which people who are working have to pay for. The richest people in America already support the country with the taxes they pay. Granted, it still gets a bit gluttonous near the top, but the rich are always going to remain rich because the more you raise their taxes the more ways they will find to divert money so they wont have to pay them.
Communism is a "noble" ideology but has zero real world application unless run by a dictator or totalitarian government, which will always end up in extreme corruption and a high level of atrocities.
No system is perfect, but America's faux-democracy is pretty close to the top any way you look at it.
I would also like to state that I am not, nor have I ever been, a communist and I do not believe in the practicality of the communist ideology. My political beliefs, though they are diverse, generally speaking are those of a social democrat and I feel this is an easily defensible ideology which, in some instances, has been proven extremely beneficial. I doubt you have any familiarity with the Canadian political system, but to put them in the local (Canadian) political context, I most frequently vote for the NDP. I hope that contextualized things.
Anyways, I think politics are a headache to discuss/think about anyways. In the end it all comes down to human nature, which makes any system fallible.
All i know is that at the end of the day I don't like seeing 20 percent of my paycheck go to taxes....and 19 of that 20 percent is going to be squandered.
When it comes to politics im neither left nor right.. just a realist and a cynic ;)