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Really good interview and it brings up the age old "boxer v wrestler" argument...which I love ;) ...I wonder if two over the hill boxers stating that MMA is tougher really holds weight since the can no longer box at a championship level but believe they are able to compete at that level in MMA? I think all on this website will agree that most MMA striking is sorely lacking today...Quote:
Originally Posted by skel1983
i like james toney alot... i also think he's full of shit.
i'd love to see him get a few nice early easy MMA knock outs. then, on, say his 4th fight he gets taken down and taken apart. really nasty like. then watch for some magical rainbow/unicorn like bull shit come out of his mouth.
"How long have you been training for this James ?" -Bas Rutten
"Well I took Karate when I was 10..."-James Toney
Jesus Christ...;D
And then Toney goes on to call Brock Lesnar and Fedor Emelianko "one dimensional". Toney IS one dimensional. He'd get taken down and slaughtered by either Fedor or Brock.
James better be training his takedown defense and try to get his fat ass down to 205 if he wants to have a chance at doing reasonably well in the UFC.
He clearly is ignorant about MMA though.
At least Mercer is humble and tries to talk some sense into James.
James Toney peaked at 160lbs. He is way over weight these days he will still be very fat at 205. Don't think he will go for 205 though. He will stay at HW!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
First of all very good interview, thanks Skel. Secondly Mercer and Toney are bound to say that the training is so much harder now they are in MMA as it is their new sport and they are no longer good enough to fight in boxing! I also remember though when Hatton was training for Mayweather he trained at the UFC headquarters gym in Vegas and in some interviews with some of the UFC fighters they were saying we have never seen training like that from a fighter, Hatton is amazing in the gym. So they must be wrong!
I'm realistic though and I don't think Toney has much chance in the UFC, his footwork is not fast enough to be effective and keep the fight standing (where he will be at an advantage) and he isn't trained at blocking the takedowns! One thing I agree with though is what RJJ said, a boxer could transition to MMA much easier than the other way around. I mean Lesnar won the UFC HW title in his 3rd fight (I think), now if he tried coming over to boxing and after his 3rd fight fought Vitali, I think we all know the outcome. Brutal 1st round KO!
I love boxing first and foremost but I don't mind MMA and I have a lot of respect for them. But if they are trying to rubbish what Jones said about them not being able to transition as easily as a boxer might to MMA then they are just not straight thinking at all. Boxers who reached the top are training in boxing usually for 20 years before they get a world title shot. Someone just trying their hand at it like Anderson Silva did and not taking it 100% serious is going to get what he did, KO'd! Now a boxer in MMA, as long as the fight is stood up (where it starts) IMO has a huge advantage as striking is a big part of MMA and should they land them Heavy hands WILL end the fight as Mercer did to Sylvia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
Good post ;)
although the Mercer v Sylvia fight was a boxing / stand up match and not an MMA match, hence the reason no takedowns were attempted. Fair play to Mercer though, he didnt give Sylvia the chance of a takedown.
Since when did Anderson Silva ever get KO'ed in either boxing or MMA ? Never, he has been subbed twice, lost a UD in his first fight and was DQ'ed in another.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
As for Brock making the transistion easier to MMA than boxing, well thats a no-brainer. Brock was a highly decorated collegiate wrestler, 106-5, and arguably one of the best ever wresters to enter MMA. The best base to start in MMA is certainly wrestling. Thats a given, and the sheer size of him ensures he was always going to be one hell of a tough Mofo to beat inside the cage. Thats also been proven.
He got submitted in a Pride fight vs a Japanese, the kind of submission moves that only work in movies but worked against Silva that night: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZifNbdjev8Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy G-ForceSince when did Anderson Silva ever get KO'ed in either boxing or MMA ? Never, he has been subbed twice, lost a UD in his first fight and was DQ'ed in another.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
As for Brock making the transistion easier to MMA than boxing, well thats a no-brainer. Brock was a highly decorated collegiate wrestler, 106-5, and arguably one of the best ever wresters to enter MMA. The best base to start in MMA is certainly wrestling. Thats a given, and the sheer size of him ensures he was always going to be one hell of a tough Mofo to beat inside the cage. Thats also been proven.
Silva lost some years back to a guy by KO and it was an actual Boxing match even counted as a pro boxing loss.....Though Silva is much much different of a fighter now he was in his early 20's or something like that...He fought a pro boxing bout a few years later and won.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy G-ForceSince when did Anderson Silva ever get KO'ed in either boxing or MMA ? Never, he has been subbed twice, lost a UD in his first fight and was DQ'ed in another.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
As for Brock making the transistion easier to MMA than boxing, well thats a no-brainer. Brock was a highly decorated collegiate wrestler, 106-5, and arguably one of the best ever wresters to enter MMA. The best base to start in MMA is certainly wrestling. Thats a given, and the sheer size of him ensures he was always going to be one hell of a tough Mofo to beat inside the cage. Thats also been proven.
This whole thing is apples and oranges kids....Fact is you have no ground game you are not going far in MMA.....
Kimbo Slice- Great slugger but on his back he had nothing
Tank Abbott- Great stand up lousy on his back...Tank was only as successful as he was because the time he came along you had really a little amount of rules to follow...No eye gouging I think was it...So it was a street fight for him...
You can have all the boxing skill in the world but if your man rushes you and you don't KO him with the one shot you land as he comes in then what?....It has been proven time and again..
I like both MMA and boxing...Though Boxing more.....
I think it is easier to make the change from MMA to boxing then the other way around
The way I see MMA and boxing is like the difference between someone who calls himself a "general builder" and a qualified "tradesman"
The general builder might be able to muddle his way through building a whole house that will have a crack here and a leak there, whereas a tradesman will go in, stick to his trade and give a professional finish.
When I see an MMA fighter try for a takedown I imediatly think they either have poor striking or are scared to stand and trade, knowing their striking technique is poor or they have no idea how to avoid getting hit.
There are quite a few spectacular KO's in MMA because the fighters arent conditioned to take or avoid shots, its almost like theyve never seen punches before!
My guess is that is because wrestling is a high school sport and alot of people will have picked up the basics there.
I would say a Mayweather or pacquiao, given 6 months to train in BJJ would do very well, it would take an MMA fighter alot longer to feel comfortable taking punches, its just psychological, a boxer has composure under pressure and doesnt panic, a good example of how poor MMA fighters are against mediocre striking is Tito Ortiz and his fetal position defence when Liddel swang fresh air at him;D
James Toney was MMA Live talking about taking on legends in his first fight. He even he'd like to fight Fedor. Said something like Anderson Silva should stay away from him. James Toney is delusional. He will be a circus act like Kimbo. Respect it or not, you must have a ground game in MMA. James Toney's confidence is making him ignorant. It is best to match Toney up with chosen guys who prefer to stand up and punch. Guys like Chuck Liddell, Kimbo, and maybe even Arvloski would be good for Toney. These guys aren't too big and don't rely on stellar ground game. So even when they try to take it to the ground Toney would have a fair shot of defending out.
I will have to disagree with this statement. MMA striking is more diverse than boxing. Striking in boxing is punches and punches only. In MMA there are so many different types of strikes that can be thrown.Quote:
Originally Posted by The PromoterReally good interview and it brings up the age old "boxer v wrestler" argument...which I love ;) ...I wonder if two over the hill boxers stating that MMA is tougher really holds weight since the can no longer box at a championship level but believe they are able to compete at that level in MMA? I think all on this website will agree that most MMA striking is sorely lacking today...Quote:
Originally Posted by skel1983
Knees
Elbows
High Kicks Low Kicks
Flying Knees
Spinning Backfists etc.,
I would not say striking in MMA is lacking at all. I love both sports and always see the whole mma vs boxing on the mma forum I am apart of as well.
Going to be honest...couldn't make it through that clip.'This' Toney ain't doing shit in mma or so it seems boxing.Thats obvious.And its a damn shame.Toney is a ring general and one of the premiere in the ring boxing thinkers over the last couple of decades.He is/was simply a Great.He's also one of the most colorful and incendiary speakers and verbal bomb throwers around,and that frankly is why I think White and company shows interest.MMA isn't getting two talented and capable prize fighters with all due respect in Toney and Mercer now...they are getting scraps and names of what once was.
I suggest you check your facts before typing. Silva got KO'd in his first boxing match and then in 2005 fought again against an opponent who was in there so Silva could even his record up. It was his debut and he has never fought again since! Here's his record!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy G-ForceSince when did Anderson Silva ever get KO'ed in either boxing or MMA ? Never, he has been subbed twice, lost a UD in his first fight and was DQ'ed in another.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
As for Brock making the transistion easier to MMA than boxing, well thats a no-brainer. Brock was a highly decorated collegiate wrestler, 106-5, and arguably one of the best ever wresters to enter MMA. The best base to start in MMA is certainly wrestling. Thats a given, and the sheer size of him ensures he was always going to be one hell of a tough Mofo to beat inside the cage. Thats also been proven.
Anderson Da Silva - Boxer
I'll differ on your assessment;Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnSilva lost some years back to a guy by KO and it was an actual Boxing match even counted as a pro boxing loss.....Though Silva is much much different of a fighter now he was in his early 20's or something like that...He fought a pro boxing bout a few years later and won.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy G-ForceSince when did Anderson Silva ever get KO'ed in either boxing or MMA ? Never, he has been subbed twice, lost a UD in his first fight and was DQ'ed in another.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
As for Brock making the transistion easier to MMA than boxing, well thats a no-brainer. Brock was a highly decorated collegiate wrestler, 106-5, and arguably one of the best ever wresters to enter MMA. The best base to start in MMA is certainly wrestling. Thats a given, and the sheer size of him ensures he was always going to be one hell of a tough Mofo to beat inside the cage. Thats also been proven.
This whole thing is apples and oranges kids....Fact is you have no ground game you are not going far in MMA.....
Kimbo Slice- Great slugger but on his back he had nothing
Tank Abbott- Great stand up lousy on his back...Tank was only as successful as he was because the time he came along you had really a little amount of rules to follow...No eye gouging I think was it...So it was a street fight for him...
You can have all the boxing skill in the world but if your man rushes you and you don't KO him with the one shot you land as he comes in then what?....It has been proven time and again..
I like both MMA and boxing...Though Boxing more.....
I think it is easier to make the change from MMA to boxing then the other way around
Tank Abbott was supposed to be an All American College Wrestler and while his stand up was good compared to other MMA fighters, it is terrible compared to pro boxing standards. Remember his initial strategy against Kimbo was to get Kimbo to the ground...didn't happen.
Kimbo could never cut it in boxing as he trained for a while and realized that it wasn't going to happen in the pro boxing game. So he took his marginal boxing ability and has done pretty well in MMA.
Boxing is a more defined sport and weaknesses in your ability are quickly exposed since you can't bring a guy to the ground if you are being overwhelmed. MMA gives you "outs" if a guy has better stand-up; get him to the ground thus covering up your weakness. Trap a guy against the ropes, clinch and throw an elbow, maybe a foot stomp and drag him to the ground. If a guy is a better boxer you kick his legs, in MMA you have options not available in a clearly defined sport like boxing. Being a sport with limited options like boxing you have to be better and more disciplined within those options. Just like the difference between a "jack of all trades" vs a "master of one trade". While a scientist may know more about many things (like MMA) a Rocket Scientist is a master of one discipline (like a Boxer). With that said I believe MMA gives marginal boxers other opportunities and an easier migration path, while Boxing would require an MMA fighter to become expert in something he may not be that good at, making it much more difficult to reach championship levels.
I don't disagree that MMA fighters have more options. I meant that the boxing fundamentals MMA guys used are poor. Watch an MMA fighter throw a jab, hook, cross or any combination compared to a pro-boxer or decent amateur, in this aspect MMA stand up is lacking. Not to say it won't get better as the sport matures. Remember, boxing has had about a 150 year head start....Quote:
Originally Posted by Caine3078I will have to disagree with this statement. MMA striking is more diverse than boxing. Striking in boxing is punches and punches only. In MMA there are so many different types of strikes that can be thrown.Quote:
Originally Posted by The PromoterReally good interview and it brings up the age old "boxer v wrestler" argument...which I love ;) ...I wonder if two over the hill boxers stating that MMA is tougher really holds weight since the can no longer box at a championship level but believe they are able to compete at that level in MMA? I think all on this website will agree that most MMA striking is sorely lacking today...Quote:
Originally Posted by skel1983
Knees
Elbows
High Kicks Low Kicks
Flying Knees
Spinning Backfists etc.,
I would not say striking in MMA is lacking at all. I love both sports and always see the whole mma vs boxing on the mma forum I am apart of as well.
Some good posts here.
- firstly, I wouldnt read too much into the comparisons that the two guys are making in the video. They are essentially washed up boxers at the highest level moving onto a new venture and they are not going to slag it off are they?
- second .... while I think that MMA guys are tough and good athletes, their actual sport is still young, so they do not yet have a history or traditions on how to fight. In any new sport, its easier to reach the top because less people do it and ther is less competition. This will change quite quickly as MMA is growing really fast
- third, I think that MMA people have some flawed techique but that is because their sport is a mixture of much more fighting styles than boxing. Its probably better to be a jack of all trades in MMA rather than 'only' a master striker or floor guy.
Lastly, sadly listening to James and Ray's speech patterns in this video, I dont think there is any doubt about how tough boxing is, but its also not the best possible advert for the sport either?
Equally, what does it say about a supposedly elite athletic sport when two over the hill guys - who are already arguably damaged - are allowed to fight in MMA?