Printable View
Hearing different things. I read the Jack Dempsey book and he says to bend almost exclusively at the hips. He makes a point to say that you should bend your knees as little as possible. But now I'm paging through the fighting fit book and it says the opposite.
Unfortunately I don't have a boxing trainer. My background is in Muay Thai, and this is a technique that was never taught to me, but I'm very eager to understand. Thanks for any insight.
I'd say a bit of both, bend at the knees (not too much) and twisy at the hips. Never thouhht about it too much, I make sure im balancef, relaxed and on my toes and just focus on putting my shoulders where I want them and the rest follows.
Bend at the Hips you lose Oral Balance, at the Knees you dont. A little thing you can try, stand with your back against the wall, shoulders ,Heels, Hips touching. Now try moving your Hips, 6% thats all you will get, its in the Knees and Feet.
Thanks guys.
Is the upperbody still pretty much upright in the bob and weave? If not, approx what angle would you say its at in relation to the pelvis? Sorry for being a detail nazi, just kind of a slow learner :bawling:
Chin in line with your Bollocks ;D
Hehe, when you can suck yourself off you're at the perfect angle. :rolleyes: Joking aside, you need a bit of both, personally if I bend too much in the knees I lose balance because I move around a lot while fighting. Never standing still. So I bend more at the hips. A bit of both, plenty of angle. Practice with a piece of wood or a pipe sticking out from a wall at around waist/stomach height. Should prove useful.
That should read Horizontal.
Getting me at it Vertical :rolleyes:
also if your bending at the hips your giving your opponent a reach advantage if he aims for your head everytime you do it, aswell as setting yourself up for being fed an uppercut on your way down, also the proper bio mechanics of hooks are lost when doing this which means your fighting against your bodys joints to throw the hooks while bent at the hips which will tire you much faster while producing a much slower and weaker shot so you can say goodbye to effective punching or counter punching while weaving this way, and most importantly if done too much you cant fully see what your opponent is doing
P.S also it puts you off balance which generally makes the whole thing slow and clumbsy, the ladys not for weaving using the hips ;D
Not intending for dispute, here's a post that reiterates what Dempsey wrote in his book:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
True as thomas tabin says dempsey could punch pretty hard the way he did it, but that doesnt mean that he couldnt have punched even harder, not everyone is a dempsey and not everyone could throw punches like him, but what really makes you think is how hard could these fighters have hit had they have used propper biomechanics.
This brings me back to my question about "is Dempsey right" (in his book) -- and it applies to any of the other older authors for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneFlint
Most of the knowledgeable folks here seemed to agree that Dempsey got almost all of it right, so I am very interested when anyone can demonstrate -- or even make a plausible case -- for something he wrote being incorrect. (As opposed to something he did in the ring once, or even habitually -- everyone has bad habits or makes mistakes.)
Dempsey definitely believe that HIS WAY of PUNCHING was MUCH stronger.
Is it?
Do we have evidence against that (or even for it)?
--
HerbM
PS: My boxing coach disapproves of the "falling step punch" which powers Dempsey's "left jolt" replacement for a "left jab" (which can also be used for the straight right but it's more critical on the lead hand).
I must practice this ONLY when he isn't around or I do a LOT OF PUSH-UPS to correct my mistake. :D
I also try to practice it so subtly that no one can tell what I am doing but yet I still get the weight transfer into the punch.
Im not saying what he did was wrong because he won fights so he must have been doing somthing right, what im saying is he could have hit harder in my opinion given the use of good posture, dempsey was a gifted puncher and i think someone less gifted than himself would struggle to pull off the kind of shots he does while still producing powerful punches, some people can hit hard however they hit but for the rest of us we have to rely on propper bio mechanics to deal damaging shots.
And I am not arguing with you -- Dempsey however says the opposite in his book and goes into some detail about why he is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneFlint
I was hoping to get specifics if you (or anyone) disagreed with him.
Remember, there is a difference between "Dempsey the Boxer" and "Dempsey the Boxing Coach". The latter spent quite some time getting his detailing in his book what he thought was correct technique and why he thought it worked.
What specifically would you change in Dempsey's description of a power jab? (His "left jolt".)
Herb, its a balancing act that goes something like this. Your inner ear mechanism for Balance should be the same distance from your big toe either way, left or right. Thats the biomechanics for balance,and engagement of the nervous system to work propperly with gravity. Its taken the body Millions of years to adapt. What Dempsey says wont change it.
True, to keep yourself in the safest and best power generating zone it is best to be on balance and in control first and foremost.
Humans are also imperfect in alot of what they do. Off balance things can sometimes work for or against someone depending on whats going on at that point in time. I think you can get away with ducking low and going off balance if you are popping out to the side where you are heading into a safe zone for a second and because they have to turn fully to find you, it can give you the power from way out of left field beyond the point of balance that you can catch them with as they look for you they meet the head on as you come all the way back through the balance point .
I know its a mistake on both parts when talking text book; but its interesting how at times you see two inadvertant mistakes ends up removing the one who seeks the avoider who has gone out into left field by some strange means then gets caught blindsided.
It takes a very controlled and experienced fighter not to turn to seek but to know to hold his own ground and give himself space and time when that happens. MAb's control over Naz comes to mind.
I wasnt arguing either m8 maybe it sounded that way because of how i wrote it? sry if i sounded a bit harsh, The left jolt, i can definently remember the word from reading his book, if i remember correctly his 'left jolt' was basically dropping into a big step with a jab on the end, if so then there are 2 main reasons i know of not to do this as i have a problem doing this myself, first problem being if your opponent moves backwards it is easy to dissolve the power or completely move out of range of the shot, and 2 for risk of being countered, a good fighter will see you doing this and get you to reach for him then counter you knowing you will be slow to evade any on coming punches. however i may be wrong ive read a lot of boxing manuals in the past year and may have the left joltconfused with somthing else.
It did NOT sound like *YOU* were arguing; I used that word to make sure that was not *MY* intention, but rather to further develop these ideas with you and with everyone who has knowledge and interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneFlint
I was mildly concern that my request for specifics and facts we can discuss would be seen as argumentative.
When I first read Dempsey, I thought perhaps that a) the drop step might be criticized as you do here and/or b) it might actually be bad for those reasons.
None of the more experienced boxers or trainers who have so far answered my request on this subject (in another thread about the "perfecting the jab") have suggested this, nor has my actual experience.
Dempsey warns it will take a bit of practice to master the step, that it will look awkward at first, and that others will criticize it.
Then he goes on to assert that once the step is mastered it can be used with VERY LITTLE movement -- the key is to just drop the weight into the punch, not actually how far you move to do that (except that a longer drop gives gravity more time to accelerate your body and fist.)
I actually ADD the drop at the END of the jolt -- my thinking and experience here is that I can jab for range finding, distraction, or other purposes without the drop and ONLY when I know the punch will land do I add the drop -- so this happens right before or at contact.
The other reason for loading the drop at the end is that I want to punch to FINISH moving faster, not start that way.
Dropping to initiate would imply always committing to the drop AND the force might be dissipated long before contact is made.
If the punch were to miss, then my foot is ready to hit the ground (it never is more than a tiny bit above the floor.)
Ideally, I want to accelerate (using all my small movement methods and muscles) as close to contact as possible.
I think this is true for any hip twist or shoulder whirl as well. Getting these muscles "into the hit" is better than using them to start the movement. (These are typically short range moves compared with extending the arm.)
But by now I have led us off topic in this thread....
--
HerbM
I've read Dempsey's manual as well and maybe I'm wrong but from what I remember he doesn't say to drop your weight into your shot but to take and drop your weight into the trigger step and then explode with your weight upwards into the final blow. This is great when hitting a heavy bag but I've tried this in sparring and against experienced fighters it just seems too predictable. A move that is similar and works for me sometimes is the kind of jab that you see Charley Burley do a few times in that great video Dadi posted up awhile ago called "Charley Burley: Analysing Genius". Correct if I'm wrong but from what I see he drops his weight over his front leg like the trigger step but instead of exploding upwards immediately and risk getting countered he uses this new position more as a bait. The video says that he strikes when he senses hesitation. You've got to be careful of their right hand of course but if you employ the stance that the video beautifully illustrates you will see that this position is also a perfect way to set up a trap for the shoulder roll counter right hand. Mayweather uses this position as well and it's interesting to note that like Burley he is able to launch and land lunging left hooks without geting countered (though from the video it shows Burley landing angled left uppercuts to the body. I've tried throwing them on the bag for a bit of fun sometimes and found them a real bastard of a move. If you could land them I'm sure you could land a gazelle punch ).
Anyway here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4.
Check out the beautiful jab he does at about 4:53 while circling to his left. It's the closest thing I can think of to the Dempsey left jolt that has worked for me in sparring but I can only pull them off after I've circled to my left transferring weight over my left leg with each left step. I think my opponent gets used to this and doesn't expect a punch to be thrown from this position. I'm not a pressure fighter though so you might find it more useful faking a straight right to the body then throwing a left jolt:confused: or try the ascending jab in this link. http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...echniques.html
Jahmez, I must go watch that video and re-think the entire "jolt" based on your comments, because that is not what I understood.
None of the following is reliable until I go do that further research....
My first impression (unverified) is that I understood Dempsey to mean dropping weight onto that front foot moving forward by simply LIFTING it from the ground with no other weight transfer (i.e., no shift to the rear foot).
Because the center of gravity is forward of the only support (i.e., the rear foot) the body will jolt forward and the hand making contact will (very briefly) become your second point of contact driving that hand harder into the target -- until that foot almost immediately returns to the floor and takes weight as the hand retracts.
It is a critical move to time -- and the foot returning to the ground can ensure that no overcommitment nor balance loss is experienced IF the strike misses.
Caveat-- I haven't done this in combat but believe that I can safely coordinate it -- after only a few dozen rounds or practice over a couple of weeks.
I have done something similar, but yet quite different, as a demonstration of the 1" and 3" punch made famous by Bruce Lee. I learned this some 30 years ago. There are about 8 steps but one of the primary ways that force is generated is placing the leg corresponding to the striking hand forward and then dropping BOTH knees several inches -- just completely relaxing into a "fall". The front knee being forward TURNS the body to the opposite side thus converting gravity/weight into rotation and extension.
It is highly critical to time such moves and they do take practice.
--
Herb
Some people are an exception to the rule. Burley practiced upper body movement with his hands down, feet grounded. He could punch with reasonable power from just about any position and with devastating power from the correct position.
The thing is Burley (probably like Dempsey) was a bit of a freak. Fighters in the gym tried to copy him, but could't pull it off. that's why he was great at what he did and others were just good.
Watching others and trying to learn from them is a good way of finding what works for you, your build, physical and physiological attributes and your psychology or available mind-set.
Burley was Burley. Dempsey was Dempsey and you are you!
Interestingly the front Heel is the Biomechanical Brake. ;D
I used to transfer my weight to my lead foot when jabbing until I started getting counter-jabbed. My head would would be closer to my opponent, I couldn't rotate my shoulders as much which meant I lost range and I was getting rocked by jabs. As soon as I started keeping or transfering my weight to my rear foot the opposite happened. It also actually increased my power because I could whip my hip and shoulder into my punches and it allowed me to be set up for my straight right.
As for the Dempsey trigger step the only way I can imagine I could generate weight by simply lifting my lead foot would be if I alreaddy had my weight over it in the first place and that by taking a tiny step I would be "falling" as Dempsey put it. I can only have my weight over my front foot if my hips and shoulders are square so if I were to take the Dempsey falling step and jab without transfering my weight over my rear leg my jab would have nowhere the ammount of range I would like being an outside fighter.
You don't need all of your weight forward onto the left foot to generate forward force by lifting it.
If you weight is 60-40 to the read as my coach recommends (or 50-50), then your center of gravity if somewhere (slightly) forward of your read foot and when you lift the front foot you will begin to shift forward. If you time this and hit shortly after the lift, you shift transmits through the striking hand.
If the foot rapidly returns to the ground as the hand retracts this doesn't even require a large change in balance.
This is the weigh I understand the step.
I don't know the optimums, but let's say I go from 60-40 on read to 40-60, and I weigh 200 lbs (not quite), that 20% change can be translated into 40 lbs added to the punch. It's probably less since our rear foot is not a single point but had significant surface area, so maybe we are adding 10-20 lbs to the punch.
I don't particularly want to get hit in the head with a 10 lb weight, especially added to the already incoming punch.
There is also the slight speed and range increase which accelerates the punch a bit deeper into the target.
I (think that I) solved the shoulder whip problem by overturning the fist past horizontal for the aiming with the ring finger for the 3-knuckle landing -- this automatically got my forward shoulder around almost parallel to the direction of the punch.
Again, more range (distance from neck to shoulder) and without taking the head closer.
All this also allows for momentary pushing with the rear toe for more force at impact.
On the other hand, I could be full of it.
--
HerbM