Why is the welterweight division so strong?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...rprospects.jpg

It seems that Welterweight is usually either the first or second deepest talent pool for as long as I can remember. There always are old strong fighters, promising young talent and solid prime fighters. Currently two men have claim to the p4p title in the eyes of most that follow boxing both have not surprisingly made their biggest statements of late at welterweight. Above are 5 prospects that most of you are no doubt familiar with. Are there any others that you guys can think of? Do you have further thoughts as to why 147 always seems to have such a solid line-up?

It has the biggest talent pool to draw from. Your average 5'9 guy who walks into a boxing gym with boxing training and diet will be a welterweight.

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Originally Posted by Truth

It has the biggest talent pool to draw from. Your average 5'9 guy who walks into a boxing gym with boxing training and diet will be a welterweight.

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Yea I think that's most of your answer right there, if you take about the average size grown man and have them train and cut lbs properly, they will be right around the weight class. Of course there is also the fact that for men of such stature; pretty well most other major sports requiring such athletecism consist of giants, ruling out their chances of taking it up seriously off the bat.
Can you name five ELITE athletes who weigh under 150, even 160 pounds in any sport besides boxing?(I'm not beginning to say they aren't out there, but you'd basically have to jump right to horse jockeys or something) It's virtually impossible to make it being so undersized in most sports worth watching.
Hypothetically, if you took say football or basketball and made a seperate league for players under 160 pounds and could conceivably pay them millions, there's no doubt that you would see phenomenal athletes coming up in time, and and incredibly high level of play. But with an open playing field, guys that size have no chance of competing. Of course I am grossly overstating this example as those two sports are cut out for huge men to dominate.
Obviously it also has a lot to do with biomechanics.. Going much lighter than WW, or perhaps lightweight, as a general rule guy's lose a lot more power pound for pound than they gain in speed or mobility etc, wheras going up much more in the weight classes guys will hit harder and be exponentially stronger but very rarely close to as quick. I'm drunk, that seemed like way to much typing but I think I'm right.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by Truth

It has the biggest talent pool to draw from. Your average 5'9 guy who walks into a boxing gym with boxing training and diet will be a welterweight.

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Yea I think that's most of your answer right there, if you take about the average size grown man and have them train and cut lbs properly, they will be right around the weight class. Of course there is also the fact that for men of such stature; pretty well most other major sports requiring such athletecism consist of giants, ruling out their chances of taking it up seriously off the bat.
Can you name five ELITE athletes who weigh under 150, even 160 pounds in any sport besides boxing?(I'm not beginning to say they aren't out there, but you'd basically have to jump right to horse jockeys or something) It's virtually impossible to make it being so undersized in most sports worth watching.
Hypothetically, if you took say football or basketball and made a seperate league for players under 160 pounds and could conceivably pay them millions, there's no doubt that you would see phenomenal athletes coming up in time, and and incredibly high level of play. But with an open playing field, guys that size have no chance of competing. Of course I am grossly overstating this example as those two sports are cut out for huge men to dominate.
Obviously it also has a lot to do with biomechanics.. Going much lighter than WW, or perhaps lightweight, as a general rule guy's lose a lot more power pound for pound than they gain in speed or mobility etc, wheras going up much more in the weight classes guys will hit harder and be exponentially stronger but very rarely close to as quick. I'm drunk, that seemed like way to much typing but I think I'm right.

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Well I agree ;D


Also, there is usually a bias towards the WW division when it comes to P4P rankings. It's a two sided theory imo.
I think a lot of fighters have naturally gravitated towards the WW division in search of big fights.
Plus it just seems to me that a fighters 'worth' is just that little bit easier to assess when they are fighting in the WW division. Almost like that weight class represents a sort of a level playing field (or/ and) a middle-ground when cross referencing fighters.
So maybe fighters appear better simply because the are Welterweights ???

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by Truth

It has the biggest talent pool to draw from. Your average 5'9 guy who walks into a boxing gym with boxing training and diet will be a welterweight.

---

Yea I think that's most of your answer right there, if you take about the average size grown man and have them train and cut lbs properly, they will be right around the weight class. Of course there is also the fact that for men of such stature; pretty well most other major sports requiring such athletecism consist of giants, ruling out their chances of taking it up seriously off the bat.
Can you name five ELITE athletes who weigh under 150, even 160 pounds in any sport besides boxing?(I'm not beginning to say they aren't out there, but you'd basically have to jump right to horse jockeys or something) It's virtually impossible to make it being so undersized in most sports worth watching.
Hypothetically, if you took say football or basketball and made a seperate league for players under 160 pounds and could conceivably pay them millions, there's no doubt that you would see phenomenal athletes coming up in time, and and incredibly high level of play. But with an open playing field, guys that size have no chance of competing. Of course I am grossly overstating this example as those two sports are cut out for huge men to dominate.
Obviously it also has a lot to do with biomechanics.. Going much lighter than WW, or perhaps lightweight, as a general rule guy's lose a lot more power pound for pound than they gain in speed or mobility etc, wheras going up much more in the weight classes guys will hit harder and be exponentially stronger but very rarely close to as quick. I'm drunk, that seemed like way to much typing but I think I'm right.

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You're good, totally makes sense, and in your first statement as I was reading it horse jockeys immediately came to mind. But yeah even golf most of those guys are bigger guys nowadays. The only other sports I can think of are short track speed skating and sprinters.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by Truth

It has the biggest talent pool to draw from. Your average 5'9 guy who walks into a boxing gym with boxing training and diet will be a welterweight.

---

Yea I think that's most of your answer right there, if you take about the average size grown man and have them train and cut lbs properly, they will be right around the weight class. Of course there is also the fact that for men of such stature; pretty well most other major sports requiring such athletecism consist of giants, ruling out their chances of taking it up seriously off the bat.
Can you name five ELITE athletes who weigh under 150, even 160 pounds in any sport besides boxing?(I'm not beginning to say they aren't out there, but you'd basically have to jump right to horse jockeys or something) It's virtually impossible to make it being so undersized in most sports worth watching.
Hypothetically, if you took say football or basketball and made a seperate league for players under 160 pounds and could conceivably pay them millions, there's no doubt that you would see phenomenal athletes coming up in time, and and incredibly high level of play. But with an open playing field, guys that size have no chance of competing. Of course I am grossly overstating this example as those two sports are cut out for huge men to dominate.
Obviously it also has a lot to do with biomechanics.. Going much lighter than WW, or perhaps lightweight, as a general rule guy's lose a lot more power pound for pound than they gain in speed or mobility etc, wheras going up much more in the weight classes guys will hit harder and be exponentially stronger but very rarely close to as quick. I'm drunk, that seemed like way to much typing but I think I'm right.

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Great post. I was about to say that I think its because at 147 the blend of speed and power is perfect so you get great fights and plenty of skill involved, but you pretty much summed that up and much more too, again great post.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by Truth

It has the biggest talent pool to draw from. Your average 5'9 guy who walks into a boxing gym with boxing training and diet will be a welterweight.

---

Yea I think that's most of your answer right there, if you take about the average size grown man and have them train and cut lbs properly, they will be right around the weight class. Of course there is also the fact that for men of such stature; pretty well most other major sports requiring such athletecism consist of giants, ruling out their chances of taking it up seriously off the bat.
Can you name five ELITE athletes who weigh under 150, even 160 pounds in any sport besides boxing?(I'm not beginning to say they aren't out there, but you'd basically have to jump right to horse jockeys or something) It's virtually impossible to make it being so undersized in most sports worth watching.
Hypothetically, if you took say football or basketball and made a seperate league for players under 160 pounds and could conceivably pay them millions, there's no doubt that you would see phenomenal athletes coming up in time, and and incredibly high level of play. But with an open playing field, guys that size have no chance of competing. Of course I am grossly overstating this example as those two sports are cut out for huge men to dominate.
Obviously it also has a lot to do with biomechanics.. Going much lighter than WW, or perhaps lightweight, as a general rule guy's lose a lot more power pound for pound than they gain in speed or mobility etc, wheras going up much more in the weight classes guys will hit harder and be exponentially stronger but very rarely close to as quick. I'm drunk, that seemed like way to much typing but I think I'm right.

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I agree with most everything you say but boxing welterweights are not quite as small as you make out.

I mean they are the weight of the average man, if he were lean and in shape.

Actually I would imagine that there are tons of elite athletes in other sports who would be welterweights, outside of basketball, rugby and American football it's probably the ideal size.

Remember welterweight boxers don't walk around at 147 lbs, most of them are probably over 165, even 175 when not cutting to make weight for the weigh in.

So I'd imagine an awful lot of tennis players, golfers, formula one drivers, soccer starts and a lot of track athletes would be welterweights if they fought as boxers, bascially anyone who walks around close to 165/170 would fight at welterweight if properly trained.

A welterweight boxer is only actually a welterweight for about an hour before the weigh in, the next day they are middleweights, and probably a month after the fight light heavy weights in a lot of cases.

You seem to be comparing athletes in other sports and saying they are heavier than welterweight boxers, a lot will only be heavier when the welterweight is weighing in.

Take Paul Williams for example, if he was a basketball player he wouldn't be weighing 147 lbs, he could easily get up to 180 lbs with his frame. In a sport where you don't need to cut weight, athletes wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by p4pking

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Truth

It has the biggest talent pool to draw from. Your average 5'9 guy who walks into a boxing gym with boxing training and diet will be a welterweight.

---

Yea I think that's most of your answer right there, if you take about the average size grown man and have them train and cut lbs properly, they will be right around the weight class. Of course there is also the fact that for men of such stature; pretty well most other major sports requiring such athletecism consist of giants, ruling out their chances of taking it up seriously off the bat.
Can you name five ELITE athletes who weigh under 150, even 160 pounds in any sport besides boxing?(I'm not beginning to say they aren't out there, but you'd basically have to jump right to horse jockeys or something) It's virtually impossible to make it being so undersized in most sports worth watching.
Hypothetically, if you took say football or basketball and made a seperate league for players under 160 pounds and could conceivably pay them millions, there's no doubt that you would see phenomenal athletes coming up in time, and and incredibly high level of play. But with an open playing field, guys that size have no chance of competing. Of course I am grossly overstating this example as those two sports are cut out for huge men to dominate.
Obviously it also has a lot to do with biomechanics.. Going much lighter than WW, or perhaps lightweight, as a general rule guy's lose a lot more power pound for pound than they gain in speed or mobility etc, wheras going up much more in the weight classes guys will hit harder and be exponentially stronger but very rarely close to as quick. I'm drunk, that seemed like way to much typing but I think I'm right.

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I agree with most everything you say but boxing welterweights are not quite as small as you make out.

I mean they are the weight of the average man, if he were lean and in shape.

Actually I would imagine that there are tons of elite athletes in other sports who would be welterweights, outside of basketball, rugby and American football it's probably the ideal size.

Remember welterweight boxers don't walk around at 147 lbs, most of them are probably over 165, even 175 when not cutting to make weight for the weigh in.

So I'd imagine an awful lot of tennis players, golfers, formula one drivers, soccer starts and a lot of track athletes would be welterweights if they fought as boxers, bascially anyone who walks around close to 165/170 would fight at welterweight if properly trained.

A welterweight boxer is only actually a welterweight for about an hour before the weigh in, the next day they are middleweights, and probably a month after the fight light heavy weights in a lot of cases.

You seem to be comparing athletes in other sports and saying they are heavier than welterweight boxers, a lot will only be heavier when the welterweight is weighing in.

Take Paul Williams for example, if he was a basketball player he wouldn't be weighing 147 lbs, he could easily get up to 180 lbs with his frame. In a sport where you don't need to cut weight, athletes wouldn't.

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You're right that a welterweight fighter usually walks around at 165-170 when not fighting. Ray Leonard in his prime, his walking weight was around 170 when not in training.

And I was reading somewhere that pro soccer players were usually in the 155-165 pound range. Not much bulk or muscle mass is required for that sport, but stamina, agility, and speed are emphasized much more so than power when it comes to elite athletes that are within the normal range of the general population.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by Truth

It has the biggest talent pool to draw from. Your average 5'9 guy who walks into a boxing gym with boxing training and diet will be a welterweight.

---

Yea I think that's most of your answer right there, if you take about the average size grown man and have them train and cut lbs properly, they will be right around the weight class. Of course there is also the fact that for men of such stature; pretty well most other major sports requiring such athletecism consist of giants, ruling out their chances of taking it up seriously off the bat.
Can you name five ELITE athletes who weigh under 150, even 160 pounds in any sport besides boxing?(I'm not beginning to say they aren't out there, but you'd basically have to jump right to horse jockeys or something) It's virtually impossible to make it being so undersized in most sports worth watching.
Hypothetically, if you took say football or basketball and made a seperate league for players under 160 pounds and could conceivably pay them millions, there's no doubt that you would see phenomenal athletes coming up in time, and and incredibly high level of play. But with an open playing field, guys that size have no chance of competing. Of course I am grossly overstating this example as those two sports are cut out for huge men to dominate.
Obviously it also has a lot to do with biomechanics.. Going much lighter than WW, or perhaps lightweight, as a general rule guy's lose a lot more power pound for pound than they gain in speed or mobility etc, wheras going up much more in the weight classes guys will hit harder and be exponentially stronger but very rarely close to as quick. I'm drunk, that seemed like way to much typing but I think I'm right.

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I agree with most everything you say but boxing welterweights are not quite as small as you make out.

I mean they are the weight of the average man, if he were lean and in shape.

Actually I would imagine that there are tons of elite athletes in other sports who would be welterweights, outside of basketball, rugby and American football it's probably the ideal size.

Remember welterweight boxers don't walk around at 147 lbs, most of them are probably over 165, even 175 when not cutting to make weight for the weigh in.

So I'd imagine an awful lot of tennis players, golfers, formula one drivers, soccer starts and a lot of track athletes would be welterweights if they fought as boxers, bascially anyone who walks around close to 165/170 would fight at welterweight if properly trained.

A welterweight boxer is only actually a welterweight for about an hour before the weigh in, the next day they are middleweights, and probably a month after the fight light heavy weights in a lot of cases.

You seem to be comparing athletes in other sports and saying they are heavier than welterweight boxers, a lot will only be heavier when the welterweight is weighing in.

Take Paul Williams for example, if he was a basketball player he wouldn't be weighing 147 lbs, he could easily get up to 180 lbs with his frame. In a sport where you don't need to cut weight, athletes wouldn't.

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Fair enough, although I did precurse my entire post by stating that the average grown man would be around welterweight once they had cut down to weigh in. Soccer and tennis were also the first physical sports I thought of where guys around this size may still dominate, although I wouldn't know as I don't follow either. It's really not worth comparing golf or formula one drivers either imo, as these are almost entirely skill based sports with no contact, think John Daly etc. To say that track stars size up favourably pretty well cements my arguement as far as biomechanics goes as well, because of the nature of the events requiring such a high blend of speed and power etc, although it remains that there is no physical contact with the opponents. As long as there is such contact, and no weight restrictions in a given sport, it's fairly elementary that men of even above average size will have little chance to excel. Using Paul Williams as an example only further proves my point if you ask me, as his entire advantage is being able to cut weight so effectively while outsizing his opponents. He would be completely mediocre were he competing against men of his stature, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by p4pking

Yea I think that's most of your answer right there, if you take about the average size grown man and have them train and cut lbs properly, they will be right around the weight class. Of course there is also the fact that for men of such stature; pretty well most other major sports requiring such athletecism consist of giants, ruling out their chances of taking it up seriously off the bat.
Can you name five ELITE athletes who weigh under 150, even 160 pounds in any sport besides boxing?(I'm not beginning to say they aren't out there, but you'd basically have to jump right to horse jockeys or something) It's virtually impossible to make it being so undersized in most sports worth watching.
Hypothetically, if you took say football or basketball and made a seperate league for players under 160 pounds and could conceivably pay them millions, there's no doubt that you would see phenomenal athletes coming up in time, and and incredibly high level of play. But with an open playing field, guys that size have no chance of competing. Of course I am grossly overstating this example as those two sports are cut out for huge men to dominate.
Obviously it also has a lot to do with biomechanics.. Going much lighter than WW, or perhaps lightweight, as a general rule guy's lose a lot more power pound for pound than they gain in speed or mobility etc, wheras going up much more in the weight classes guys will hit harder and be exponentially stronger but very rarely close to as quick. I'm drunk, that seemed like way to much typing but I think I'm right.

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I agree with most everything you say but boxing welterweights are not quite as small as you make out.

I mean they are the weight of the average man, if he were lean and in shape.

Actually I would imagine that there are tons of elite athletes in other sports who would be welterweights, outside of basketball, rugby and American football it's probably the ideal size.

Remember welterweight boxers don't walk around at 147 lbs, most of them are probably over 165, even 175 when not cutting to make weight for the weigh in.

So I'd imagine an awful lot of tennis players, golfers, formula one drivers, soccer starts and a lot of track athletes would be welterweights if they fought as boxers, bascially anyone who walks around close to 165/170 would fight at welterweight if properly trained.

A welterweight boxer is only actually a welterweight for about an hour before the weigh in, the next day they are middleweights, and probably a month after the fight light heavy weights in a lot of cases.

You seem to be comparing athletes in other sports and saying they are heavier than welterweight boxers, a lot will only be heavier when the welterweight is weighing in.

Take Paul Williams for example, if he was a basketball player he wouldn't be weighing 147 lbs, he could easily get up to 180 lbs with his frame. In a sport where you don't need to cut weight, athletes wouldn't.

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Fair enough, although I did precurse my entire post by stating that the average grown man would be around welterweight once they had cut down to weigh in. Soccer and tennis were also the first physical sports I thought of where guys around this size may still dominate, although I wouldn't know as I don't follow either. It's really not worth comparing golf or formula one drivers either imo, as these are almost entirely skill based sports with no contact, think John Daly etc. To say that track stars size up favourably pretty well cements my arguement as far as biomechanics goes as well, because of the nature of the events requiring such a high blend of speed and power etc, although it remains that there is no physical contact with the opponents. As long as there is such contact, and no weight restrictions in a given sport, it's fairly elementary that men of even above average size will have little chance to excel. Using Paul Williams as an example only further proves my point if you ask me, as his entire advantage is being able to cut weight so effectively while outsizing his opponents. He would be completely mediocre were he competing against men of his stature, in my opinion.

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Like I say I agree with everything you said really. The only point of contention was when you said only in boxing could you have elite athletes around 147-155 lbs.

My point is that if many of the elite heavier athletes switched to boxing, many would be boiling down to 147 for the weigh in and thus fighting at welterweight.

I'm not sure how big John Daly is for example, wikipedia says 5 ft 11 and 185lbs at 43. I imagine in his 20's, in great physical shape and lean (I know he was never lean in golf) he'd be weighing in for fights much less than 185, if not 147 he'd likely make 154 lbs, 160 at max.

But anyway, we are splitting hairs I agree, I think we agree more or less. I imagine statistically if everyone on Saddo boxing fought professionally, probably 65% or more would be welterweight or lighter fighters, even though probably 65% or more are heavier than welterweight limit right now!

Hahah indeed. I only brought up John Daly because he is a fat slob and still competes, as well as being able to outdrive nearly anyone who has ever played the game. I was trying to illustrate that golf is more of a skill game that doesn't require great athletecism by any means.
I wouldn't go quite as far as to say we are splitting hairs, because there is a huge difference in saying that your average out of shape man would be a welterweight if in fighting shape than to say an elite athlete who currently weights 30+ lbs over would have no problem making the limit although they are already in peak physical condition through years of intense training. SOME could do it, but they would be amongst the smallest men in their sport. Like I said, you may be dead on with soccer and tennis, although I did imagine that the average star players were still only just under 200lbs, and in that case it's very innacurate to say they would be able to make welterweight after making a transition to boxing, cutting weight is something that your body must become accustomed to through years of practice in order to do so effectively.
My initial point was that the welterweight division may cater to those who are indeed significantly outsized in most other sports.

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Originally Posted by Truth

It has the biggest talent pool to draw from. Your average 5'9 guy who walks into a boxing gym with boxing training and diet will be a welterweight.

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Add the fact of the young guys 22,23, 24 etc at LW and LWW who have not filled out yet that end up in the division....EG

PBF, SSM, ODH, some bigger ones over the years

Being a natrual 160 lb guy makes yu pretty much able to compete in any sport. Just depending on the training anbd muscle mass you require you'll change. a 160 lb guy walks in a boxing gym walks out at 147. A 160 lb guy walks on to a soccer pitch he walks out at 160, the guy goes to a football field he walks out at 190.

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Originally Posted by killersheep

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...rprospects.jpg

It seems that Welterweight is usually either the first or second deepest talent pool for as long as I can remember. There always are old strong fighters, promising young talent and solid prime fighters. Currently two men have claim to the p4p title in the eyes of most that follow boxing both have not surprisingly made their biggest statements of late at welterweight. Above are 5 prospects that most of you are no doubt familiar with. Are there any others that you guys can think of? Do you have further thoughts as to why 147 always seems to have such a solid line-up?

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Wait a minute... A Ginger Mexican ??? How the hell did that happen?!

Plus Welterweight just sounds cool... Cooler than Straw weight or Cruiser weight or light middle weight... Then the glory of Heavyweight of course... I think the history of Welterweight is enough for people to want to make their name there in this day and age..

But mostly as everyone else said, for the person of average height, that is where it's at regarding weight... The mixture of speed plus power is balanced... Welter has the largest showcases of different styles and attributes and boxing skill....

Is there really a standout answer to this question other than the simple fact that the competition is much denser!!

Im a 6'0 welterweight! So i must agree and say it is the best weightclass :)