Blending Head Movement With Punching

When you guys punch, are you moving your head while you punch, or after you punch? Is one generally a better approach than the other?

I flat out don't understand how to use head movement. I'm one of these people who will do little rhythmic slips while 5 feet out of range because he doesn't know what he's doing.

I'm comfortable with the technique of slipping, ducking, weaving, but I don't know how to apply any of this to my boxing game in other words, other than trying to look cool while accomplishing nothing offensively or defensively.

If you guys got an opinion on the matter, I'd love to hear it. Thanks.

TBWNHS

I want to add that when I move my head while punching, I have a tendency to punch at more of an angle. If I slip while throwing a right hand, my right hand tends to go much more left than straight. It also tends to loop a little more. If I slip outside while throwing a jab, my jab tends to go much more right than straight.

Can you really avoid this though? I mean, If I'm slipping to the outside while throwing, but still try to punch completely straight, don't I lose almost all shoulder protection I'd get at the end of my punch?

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Originally Posted by ThaiBoxerWithNoHandsSon

I want to add that when I move my head while punching, I have a tendency to punch at more of an angle. If I slip while throwing a right hand, my right hand tends to go much more left than straight. It also tends to loop a little more. If I slip outside while throwing a jab, my jab tends to go much more right than straight.

Can you really avoid this though? I mean, If I'm slipping to the outside while throwing, but still try to punch completely straight, don't I lose almost all shoulder protection I'd get at the end of my punch?

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I think a lot of this has to do with the body trying to balance itself, plus the repetition of learned behavior ie throwing from that angle usually etc. And that simply with practice at for eg. keeping the right a bit more right when slipping throwing it, it'll come around eventually and straighten out and find its target.

As for the head movement deal, that's a broad subject and someone like Scrap will understand much better the details of oral stability and it's importance in the whole process.

I will say that I believe head movement means 2 things to me. One it means I need to have it be in the right place so as to capitalize on speed and power when on offense, maximizing balance for it.

And then it is all defense. And that is all about not having your head where a punch is about to land. And unless you're some sorta freak of natural anticipation, it comes with time served. Learning opponents tendencies...where to be, and more importantly...not to be.

Both offense and defense overlap, eh obviously.

As YB says its perception anticipation, its all the same idea. Doing some interesting stuff with it, its down to Balance.

when you are moving your head back and forth slippin and bobbing the purpose is to not keep your head in one spot, your head is alot easier to hit when its not moving than moving. Also it keeps you focused and ready for example if your not moving your head your reaction time to someones punch will be slower, when your head is moving you have that headstart. There is alot of rythm and timing to it so it takes work. To help with you head movement while punching put a mirror on the wall level with your head hieght while your in your stance and shadow box. While you are shadow boxing make sure your head stays out of the mirror for example when you throw your right lean with it a little and even when your not punching keep slipping and bobbing. This has helped me with my overall head movement.

Hey TB

Couple of small points:

1. Try not to think of head movement as such. Think of the fact that the body does the movement and the head moves as a consequence of this.
2. The aim of moving the body in order to move the head is that you are in a position to throw shots back.
3. Try not to wait as such for shots to come in order to slip/roll or duck out of the way. Set yourself a little rule; I will perform a slip/roll/duck before and after every punch or set of punches. You are in effect making the assumption that your opponent will throw shots at you (a reasonable assumption to make!)
4. Think about sequence e.g. inside slip - left hook - roll - left hook - roll - move away. In this sequence, a double left hook is interrupted by a roll, giving the option on increasing leverage on the second left hook. By adding (head) movement skills in sequence with body movements and footwork, your successes in terms of making your opponent miss will increase.
5. Find Don Curry's 1985 encounter with Milton McCrory (god bless YouTube!). Watch his inside slip and left hook in the 2nd round...don't blink though, you might miss it!!!!
6. Finally, get used to being on the edge of range. Slips, ducks and rolls when you are on the edge of range have the added advantage of putting pressure on your opponent.

Good luck mate

Fran

I agree with almost everything posted here besides getting used to fighting on the edge of range, its currently a very bad habit i have and am trying to get rid of especially if you want to be able to deal damaging shots rather than point scoring shots, in my experience fighting on the edge of range will allow a good opponent to use this to his advantage by using that range with a few tricks to dissolve your shots much easier than it would be when your stood in range, will probably lead to reaching. standing in range is what will put pressure on a fighter much more and allow you to counter on their shots a lot more effectively you can then use the time you have to counter to set yourself properly rather than spending it closing the range, of course it depends what counter your using but in general i think this is true.

Hey Wayne

My guess is that we will end up agreeing to disagree, which is not a bad thing as life is all about opinions. My main point would be that whilst you have a desire to fight permanently within range (and if you're seeking to throw power shots then you would be at short/mid range) it is still important that you have some method of getting from 'out of range' to 'in range' safely and with maximum effect. This is the reason why I think that boxers must be comfortable at the 'edge of range' whatever their ultimate preferred tactic. I like the idea of teleportation, although I am having difficulty getting the boxers in our gym to buy into this! :-). I've recently produced an article on range, it may hold some interest - it's called 'Fight Tactics - Range'

Cheers Wayne

Fran

I think range depends on the fighter. Ali was a master at fighting at the edge of range but imagine if he tried to fight Frazier on the inside. That being said I think its important to know how to fight at all ranges. Sooner or later guys like Frazier meet a bigger puncher than themselves and just don't seem to know how to deal with the situation. Margarito-Cotto also comes to mind.

I think my main reason for disagreeing with your final point in that perticular post was because i didnt quite understand what you meant by ''on the edge of range'' personally when i fight on the edge of range i dont feel quite as under pressure neither do my opponents seem to be feeling the pressure :confused: this is what makes me think i missunderstood what you mean by just out of range, i think this is because disolving the power of a shot at this range as its usually going to be a straight shot seems to be much easier and leaves more allowance for errors in defencive choices, perhaps its a matter of preferance i couldnt really say as its not a subject ive really disscussed with someone prefering infighting i suppose people are comfortable with what they do most but for me the closer range is definently the one that adds pressure as the variety of shots/angles are increased as well as power, maybe this is just me and the range i have gotten used to fighting from but maybe im wrong and even infighters feel more pressure in range than they do just outside of range even though they have most success on the inside therefore thats the range they choose to fight from most, but i cant really speak for other people, anyways im babbling, but basically re reading your post and your statement that just out of range adds pressure makes me think that what you referd to as just out of range may be the range that i refer to as in range and if it is then what i was trying to say is i have a bad habit or fighting completely out of range and that this is a hard habit to get rid of and a bad habit unless your goal is to jab and move essentially winning a match utilizing the jab as the main point scorer rather than trying to end the fight quick using in range shots, which is a style of fighting im trying to improve on myself to broaden my strategies, i know this post is a mess but its late my apologies for the dissagreement as i think i simply took the term ''just out of range'' the wrong way and mistaken it for being completely out of range, im going to sleep now because im making this post worse the longer i spend on it lol

Hey Wayne

Loved you post. Whatever happens from now on, I'm now officially a 'Wayne fan'. You obviously put a lot of thought into your boxing mate, and in my experience the boxers that run through scenarios in the way you do are the ones who reap most rewards.

Take it steady mate, hope you enjoyed your sleep! ;)

Fran

hehe, thanks m8 i did enjoy my sleep, i must say i do think alot about boxing im loving it at the moment my gf is sick of hearing about it, but i must say i also enjoy your posts for the same reason, some people think of boxing as a no brainers sport, i guess in some cases they are right but i like to think there can be more of a science about how you can approach a fight aswell and i think its this that draws me to boxing as many other combat sports seem to be lacking in this quality, i took a look through your site and might i say youve done a very good job clearly you have spent alot of time on it and it shows, i especially like the fact that you point out their is a difference between how each punch is executed depending on the range its delivered from which is important and often missed out both online and in the gym, aswell its one of the best online sources ive seen for an accurate description of how to slip most effectivley, very precise work, also you have intrigued me, this teleporting you speak of i can say ive never heared about before sounds very interesting ;D

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Originally Posted by ThaiBoxerWithNoHandsSon

When you guys punch, are you moving your head while you punch, or after you punch? Is one generally a better approach than the other?

I flat out don't understand how to use head movement. I'm one of these people who will do little rhythmic slips while 5 feet out of range because he doesn't know what he's doing.

I'm comfortable with the technique of slipping, ducking, weaving, but I don't know how to apply any of this to my boxing game in other words, other than trying to look cool while accomplishing nothing offensively or defensively.

If you guys got an opinion on the matter, I'd love to hear it. Thanks.

TBWNHS

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im no pro,but ive boxed as an amateur. for me primarily i use head movement for slipping shots and once ive done that i will get back to a position for throwing a shot as soon as possible.saying that tho one of my favourite shots is throwing whilst slipping at the same time, if ur an orthadox fighter then this is a good shot (it works for me anyway)..wait till ur opponent throws a jab or cross,then slip to the left,then in that split second whilst uve slipped his shot, throw a left hand screw shot, try not too leave it as that tho,try and throw a right cross left hook after it, always combinations,i no its easier said than done but it has worked for me.







job biscuit.(i love fresh samoln,it makes me feel complete,it makes me feel like a man.QUOTE:fernando vargas.2003)

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

Hey Wayne

My guess is that we will end up agreeing to disagree, which is not a bad thing as life is all about opinions. My main point would be that whilst you have a desire to fight permanently within range (and if you're seeking to throw power shots then you would be at short/mid range) it is still important that you have some method of getting from 'out of range' to 'in range' safely and with maximum effect. This is the reason why I think that boxers must be comfortable at the 'edge of range' whatever their ultimate preferred tactic. I like the idea of teleportation, although I am having difficulty getting the boxers in our gym to buy into this! :-). I've recently produced an article on range, it may hold some interest - it's called 'Fight Tactics - Range'

Cheers Wayne

Fran

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I like that : realization of the ranges and its pros and cons.

I think of "just out of range" as disruption time (balance as well as their timing). Its a time when you can deal with their forearms and elbow points prior to full contact range, disrupts their balance,timing,and makes them over react, or it can diffuse their shot. (which they will react to as well).

ThaiBoxer-

One of the things I have been trying to work on is moving my head while punching, specifically with the jab and the right cross. My coach told me the first giveaway that a boxer is a novice is that he does not move his head during or after punching. He tells me to contantly move off the centerline to avoid being countered. This is especially true with me since I like to pressure my opponent and press the action.

I try to throw my jab with a slight slip to my right (orthodox), or dip slightly when I step in with the jab. This moves my head just a few inches enough to avoid the return shot. I have to make sure that I mix it up so it doesnt become predictable. I will also jab then duck, slip, roll to give a different look after the punch.

I also try to always move my head down and left when throwing the right cross and overhand right. This also helps to involve your hips and body into the punch. I imagine myself like I'm a baseball pitcher throwing a fastball.

godinmycorner i also used to jab and sort of duck my head to the right to avoid counters on my jab i think it is a good little adjustment to keep them from using the overhand right or simply trying to intercept your jab with their own ive heared of this little adjustment be referd to as a ''classic block'' but i have now come to realise it hass its own set of problems like many manouvers in boxing, it tends to leave you in a bad place leaving your rear foot out behind dropping you into a wide stance often with nowhere to go if your in a hurry, aswell it makes you a prime target for a counter uppercut and aswell it just makes your balance a bit too much on the front foot, thats just my opinion of it yes its a good thing to do if your opponent is trying to counter you with these 2 counters and to take them away from him, but dont get too reliant on it because a good boxer will find its weakness and your in quite a vulnerable place when doing this if you think about it.

How DOES one deal with such an overhand right counter to the jab (especially from a taller boxer punching down with that right)?

I have really long arms so this isn't usually a problem but I have seen it recently, and had to invent my own defense on the spot.

The guy who could do this is not much more experience than I am so he probably didn't know how to take advantage of my (new) openings when I did pretty much what you said:

I was ducking, fading left (outside his right), and/or roll blocking/parrying with my left forearm under his right elbow :p -- varying between 1-3 of these moves he stopped being able to hit me like that.

My knees are so screwed that ducking is a real issue for me, but he was tall enough that I didn't have to duck very far. :D

The whole thing also got me to concentrate on tightening up the return of my jab to guard, but that wasn't a big part of the problem.

BTW: I didn't seem to be messing up my stance since I wasn't (necessarily) stepping to do any of this -- although I also was continuing to move laterally to avoid standing in front of him.

What should I do?
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HerbM