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I don't think he was that hurt. In my opinion telling the doctors that he could continue while he is lying flat on his face is a bunch of BS. Its a way too look like the poor victim with heart that got screwd by the system. He felt he could have gone on, sure looked like it when he was punching the ambulance, he should have gotten up instead of lying on his face for 5 minutes like a faker, there was nothing wrong with him.
I agree he should have stood up if he wasn't seriously hurt.
I don't know why he would fake though.
He was winning the fight and not getting hurt in there or hit clean.
Perhaps, I didn't think the fall was that bad. I've seen far worse and boxers have got up fine. But just maybe something twisted and or bruised, just a case of wait and see. I was suspicious about it all though.
Who knows? I don't think he quit though, he was doing well up to that point. It didn't look like a serious fall, but he did land on the monitor and we won't know if he was seriously hurt for a while.
I agree that it didn't look like Cintron was severely hurt there, but he was in a sort of forward roll motion when his neck/back contacted the monitor, so it maybe that's why the doctors insisted on him getting checked out rather than going on. As a rugby fan, the neck injuries are the ones you have to be most careful with, what may at first may appear an innocuous knock can be much more serious.
However, the real disgrace out there tonight was the ring....that looked like an inflatable ring in there as there was no tension in the ropes whatsoever and the gap that Cintron went through was much much bigger than it should have been. With the proper tension in those ropes, we could have seen the action of the first 90 seconds of the fourth go much further and to a more satisfying end.
And the change of rules to give Williams a win instead of ruling it a NC....ridiculous.
He saw Williams turning up the pressure and was like f this I'm gonna dive out of the ring, this guys crazy. Seriously though lower back injury can complete stiffen up your entire back making it hard to move let alone box. If he was up and moving around and punching shit(I didnt see any of that) gotta make ya wonder if he just wanted to cash that check. Both fighters get paid....Quote:
Originally Posted by boxer dude
I don't know but since the Margarito fights I have considered him to be a bit soft, a great fighter no doubt, but a bit soft. This sure did not change my opinion of him.
no he wasn't up, but he was very vocal and he punched the ambulance when they were wheeling him in. Granted a back injury could really be seriouse but not to lay on the floor motion less for five minutes like his neck is broken. And if he was saying that he wanted to go on like Merchant said, then don't say it, get your ass up and show it.Quote:
Originally Posted by No ContestHe saw Williams turning up the pressure and was like f this I'm gonna dive out of the ring, this guys crazy. Seriously though lower back injury can complete stiffen up your entire back making it hard to move let alone box. If he was up and moving around and punching shit(I didnt see any of that) gotta make ya wonder if he just wanted to cash that check. Both fighters get paid....Quote:
Originally Posted by boxer dude
Wow. We fans can't seem to see real fight these days. It's too bad Kermit didn't force the issue to fight on. I think this definitely hurt his career regardless if he was Hurt or if was an act.
I once fell off my bed onto the carpet and bent my neck back a bit.
I thought I was going to die, the pain was agonising.
And for actor in a supporting role, the envelope please.
And our winner is....(drummmm rolllllllll)....
Kermit "I can cry on demand" Cintron!
http://rwrant.co.za/wp-content/uploa...ar-trophy1.jpg
Can't fault the guy or the commision for being too careful, since none of us here took the fall we're forced to belive whatever he says
The cry-babyitch was fakin' it big time, and the ring doctor had no choice but to play it safe whether he believed Cintron or not.
Anyways, I thought it was a very competitive fight.
Why exactly would someone fake an injury so they could lose a fight on the cards? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft
Of course he wasn't faking don't be ridiculous.
He got hurt and couldn't continue, and then got screwed over with a stupid points loss.
People hold the Martinez draw against him but he wasn't a judge, that wasn't his fault, and he did take that fight at only two weeks notice.
He came to win tonight, and was boxing well up to the unfortunate incident.
Some of you guys got it WRONG! and have too much BS to say.
Here is the problem. Cintron fell out of the ring over a table with equipment on it. He immediately reached to his back and neck area gesturing in pain. The ring side Doctor(s) saw it. (And possible heard Cintron complaining) Had they taken any other action other the one of precaution and Cintron ended up having further injuries as a result of a non-cautionary response, the ring Doctor would have been blamed. The Commission had no choice but to back the Doctor's orders completely. He obviously had some pain, and had people around him ordering him not to move. And it also looked like Cintron was saying he was ok and wanted to continue.
I want to see how he ended up outside the ring Royal Rumble style...
By how people are saying his back landed on monitors, it could have been an injury that would have hindered his performance... Or maybe just the shock of finding himself outside the ring and layed out over some electrical equipment may have made him more sensitive to whatever pain there was,,,, yet if he suffered the same thing from a punch,,, he would have just considered it par for the course and kept on fighting..
Yeah it's a good point you make, the health and safety of the fighter is paramount and had he broke a disc or vertebrae and tried to carry on fighting it could have been very dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
It reminds me of a similar (albiet very different) scenario in chess last year. A young and rather maverick GM with a wildboy reputation turned up for a tournament game drunk and then fell asleep.
He was woken by the arbiter after his opponent reported him as having been passed out for several minutes and resumed playing, although subsequently disqualified.
Afterwards there was huge controversy about whether the arbiter should have woken him up. People said he should have just been left and if he ran out of time tough. It was big news in the chess world and very topical discussion.
The arbiter made an excellent defence of his actions however when he said, that he wasn't waking him to prevent him from losing on time, but rather it was his job, in the interests of health and safety to check that an unconscious person was actually ok!
It's such an obvious point that it tends to get overlooked. We argue all kinds of other semantics, and miss the obvious, like in this case.
A person had a bad fall and was clearly in pain. A doctor HAS to take precautions, especially with back injuries. As soon as it became clear that Cintron was in pain and couldn't get straight back up the doctors pretty much had to stop that fight.
Yeah well, getting on the screen has strange effects on some. :rolleyes:
I'm not blaming the doctors one bit. They did their job. I had Cintron ahead on the cards. I believe he thought he was too. But the whole thing was so bizarre it looked like he actually jumped through the ropes increasing the force of the leap....then went hollywood with it. I truly felt that before I even had a clue what was going to happen with the decision and all. I sorta expected it to be NC or somehow a win for him.
I'd really have to see it more to form a serious opinion, but my first impression is the guys simply a melodramatic tool and helped that whole situation along.
ANyone has a gif of it or a link to the incident? It sounds serious if he landed on monitors and equipment and couldn't continue.
I haven't had the luxury of seeing multiple replay angles of the incident, however a neutral source who saw the highlight of the end with me said "that was suspicious, it was like he jumped out of the ring". I'm not saying this is a fact but from the angle I saw it didn't even look like Williams had any affect on Cintron going through the ropes? Anyone see it differently?
I have it on dvr and it did look like he jumped out of the ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth
Technically, this is pretty cut and dry per California rules, which are ridiculous. Three in the books?
I used to like the prospect Cintron. I have become less a fan of the contender.
This is my cynical side operating now but Cintron was really on last chance salon at world level he was getting on par with Rocky Juarez for big fights and not actually winning them, now he is a big underdog in this fight getting paid very well and at the time there is a solid chance he is ahead on the cards so maybe he thinks I pull out now I get another shot another pay day before I am back fighting on FFN?
Check out this exclusive interview with Cintron just uploaded to youtube.
What an interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQWXuK3yVgw
I had absolutely no interest in this fight going into it, but after this interview, now I kinda want to see a rematch!!
Obviously there was nothing wrong with him. I thought I would wait and see what they would find at the hospital, but obviously there was nothing wrong with him. He wasn't moving at all which would have indicated some kind of possibly serious injury, but the fact that he wouldn't move when there was nothing wrong with him makes me question his motives. He could have got up and taken his time once he had got his breath, but he didn't respond with anything and there he was was on a stretcher and with a neck brace? There would have been no need for any of that carry on had he just got up and saw for himself what the extent of his injuries was. What a joke and what a waste for all those who paid good money to go and see that fight. Disgraceful. He's fine, probably not even a bruised rib.
I wasn't in the ring nor landed on the equipment, but hey if the guy couldn't continue, then he couldn't continue, this is a dangerous sport.
Back then everyone also said Gerald McClellan was faking his injury fighting against Nigel Benn and said he didn't have heart to continue when he looked alright taking a knee in that last round, well he showed too much heart and is now living like Helen Keller.
So if a guy can't continue, I'm not going to question him. In fact if a guy can't continue, then he shouldn't push it. He's got a life to live out there.
^generalbulldog, you're comment right there is spot on. You are exactly right. Did you hear that Cintron interview that I posted?
After listening to Cintron, I thought he explained himself very well and I like the confidence he has in himself. And yeah maybe the doctor's were overreacting, thinking he was seriously injured, when in fact Cintron just need a minute to breathe and get his breath back as he said. Maybe if they implemented the 5 minute rule, maybe the fight could have continued.
It's always so easy for people to question a fighter when something like this happens, so easy for people to jump to conclusions.
People said things like it was a horrible fight and what not. And I will admit to watching UFC at the time so I really didn't watch the fight too closely, but I find it interesting to see how people react to adversity and out of the ordinary situations. And Cintron seems to have a good head on his shoulders, and seemed to just be being honest.
I will definitely watch Cintron's next fight closely. generalbulldog, what you said about how people said that Gerald McClellan was faking, when in reality he was hurt shows that you have watched boxing closely over the years.
I watch boxing and MMA because I respect guys trying to win and gain glory all the while risking their life.
That's why I respect things like the way Roy Jones Jr fought against Hopkins last month when most people dismiss it. I respect what you said generalbulldog, and I hope we can have some great discussions here moving forward.
it didn't look too bad a fall but he could have twisted his back or hurt his neck. The dr. Was there very quickly, when williams' people asked the ref why he didn't start the count - 20secs to get in the ring, he said he couldn't because the dr. Was there.
it was reported he wanted to continue but the Dr. Advised against it. So blame the doctor.
whoever set up the ring needs kicking. The ropes were not secured together. There was a strap wrapped over them at the top and bottom meaning the 2nd and 3rd ropes were free to move.
california rules, no wait ABC rules, no wait california. All of that is BS designed to give a 'winner' for the TV. For once I agreed with Jim Watt!
You would have thought he had broken his back the way he didn't even try to move! Come on, you fall down then you at least try and get up first. You don't just lay there thinking "I better not move an inch just in case I might have done something". He should have taken his five minutes and got on with it. He hasn't a thing wrong with him which only confirms my suspicions.
yeah but it was the doctor hovering over him telling him not to.
He said he was winded.
So after having got his breath back 1 or 2 minutes later he could have attempted to move his head or stand up and at least make it clear that he was just winded. With the way he was carrying on you would have expected at least some damage, but he is walking around fine. What kind of person doesn't even attempt to stand up after a minor fall? It makes no sense to me. I'm not someone who wants fighters to come to harm, but this was a minor tumble out of the ring and the fact that he is walking around fine proves it was just that. Those fans should get a refund for that. What a con!Quote:
Originally Posted by piye
Guys, seriously watch the tape again. I don't think Cintron was faking at all, and I don't think he "dove out the ring" as some have suggested.
Keep a few things in mind before you judge this situation. First of all, Williams was attempting to clinch Cintron, but missed Cintron and started to fall down. As Williams was falling down, he tried to grab on to Cintron's arm. And by doing that, as Williams was falling down, he spun Cintron towards the ropes.
Cintron's momentum went hard towards the ropes, the ropes were loose as hell, and he went right through. As he started falling, it looked like he jumped out, but in reality, his legs lifted off the ground because his torso was falling towards the floor outside the ropes. So his legs lifted up and he landed hard on the table, with that monitor or device or whatever, and landed hard on his lower back.
Keep this in mind also : THIS ISN'T WWE. In boxing, you have gloves on, so you can't grab the rope on your way down to slow your momentum. (as WWE wrestlers do when they fall over or through the ropes). So he landed hard because he's wearing boxing gloves that don't allow you to grab the rope to ease your fall. Also, unlike WWE, you don't have padding on the outside of the ropes. There were media people with tables and television monitors and statistical devices on the tables.
Cintron landed hard on that table. And I don't think he was faking, but at the same time he got the wind knocked out of him. He had doctor's surrounding him asking him questions when all he wanted to do with breathe and use his 5 minutes to recover.
It was a crazy funny situation, but it all happened so fast I think too many people are jumping to conclusions criticizing Cintron. All the while IT WAS WILLIAMS WHO MISSED HIS ATTEMPTED CLINCH, WENT DOWN AND GRABBED ONTO CINTRON SPINNING HIM TOWARDS AND THROUGH THE ROPES.
Yeah I was angry about staying up just to watch that trash. My initial thoughts were Cintron was faking but watching how seriously they took it, I had to question it. I expected to wake up this morning and hear he had been paralysed for life or something severe considering how bad they made it look last night :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
A NC would have been a fair result but Im glad it went Pauls way cuz I cant imagine him pulling a stunt like that. Kermit probably wasnt aware of the rules and thought it would be a NC if he stayed down. Anyone who has bets on PW should cash em in as soon as cuz theres a chance Cintron could get this result changed.
Barrera - Juarez, Winky - Simon and Brodie - Chi are all fights that had the results changed after it was offcially announced.
Hrmm interesting point. But were those fights in California? I think the rarity of the California rule was the fact that this was a non title fight. I think had it been a title fight, it would have been under different rules and would have been a no contest since the 4th round didn't end. But apparently the rule for California non title fights is it's only a no contest if it ends before the 4th round starts :confused:. I had no idea of this rule, and apparently neither did the ref.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
As much as a no contest would have clearly been the fairest decision, something tells me the result won't be changed due to the rule. Then again, apparently the rule also is that you get 5 minutes to recover in a situation like that. So you may be right about cashing in quickly for those who bet on Williams, but at the same time, I don't think it'll be changed since it was a non-title fight and apparently that was the rule.
Still, I have no idea what could or will happen. Other decisions have been appealed and changed. I actually think if the rematch is made, it probably won't be changed. If Williams chooses not to rematch Cintron, then maybe Cintron will appeal and try to get it changed to a no contest. Still, even if the ref wasn't aware of the no contest california rule for non title fights, if it is in fact a rule, then I don't see any reason why it would be changed.
Maybe perhaps Cintron could argue that he didn't get 5 minutes, and that could make it a no contest. Lots of things up in the air here.;D
I was in bed and haven't see the whole but the way you speak about it it sounds like a much controversial episode, I'll find the fight and come back with my opinion on the matter.
He's been sparring with Andre Dirrell ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
Ha. Definitely watch it. I can guarantee that you've never seen anything like it...ever. Let us know your thoughts after you watch it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nameless
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublehook2Hrmm interesting point. But were those fights in California? I think the rarity of the California rule was the fact that this was a non title fight. I think had it been a title fight, it would have been under different rules and would have been a no contest since the 4th round didn't end. But apparently the rule for California non title fights is it's only a no contest if it ends before the 4th round starts :confused:. I had no idea of this rule, and apparently neither did the ref.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
As much as a no contest would have clearly been the fairest decision, something tells me the result won't be changed due to the rule. Then again, apparently the rule also is that you get 5 minutes to recover in a situation like that. So you may be right about cashing in quickly for those who bet on Williams, but at the same time, I don't think it'll be changed since it was a non-title fight and apparently that was the rule.
Still, I have no idea what could or will happen. Other decisions have been appealed and changed. I actually think if the rematch is made, it probably won't be changed. If Williams chooses not to rematch Cintron, then maybe Cintron will appeal and try to get it changed to a no contest. Still, even if the ref wasn't aware of the no contest california rule for non title fights, if it is in fact a rule, then I don't see any reason why it would be changed.
Maybe perhaps Cintron could argue that he didn't get 5 minutes, and that could make it a no contest. Lots of things up in the air here.;D
how can they not know the rules they are fighting under?
Cintron's people need to complain or at least threaten on sue whoever set up the ring :cool: