Are we reaching the end days of humanity?

I know, I know another typically life affirming thread from good old Mr Happy! :D

I've been sitting here contemplating whether or not we are reaching the final stages before the eventual collapse of advanced human civilisation. I look at the way developed nations have become with their gross economic mismanagement and look at the way our societies are motivated by nothing more than greed and the need to make as much money as possible without any concern for the wider costs to society. This latest oil leak is just a case in point. Huge damage being done to the environment without any of the neccessary precautions being put in place to prevent such a thing happening in the first place. The oceans are already known to have become acidic and rather tough for the underwater dwellers. Everyday we are putting god knows how much junk into the air through car emmisions, cow farts and general environmental malpractice. Any talk of preserving the environment has vanished in the mainstream media as we are now obsessed with national deficits. We are also now seeing financial institutions playing games with the food markets. Over the past few years the prices of commodities such as wheat and rice have doubled and in the case of rice even tripled in value because the same people who were playing games with the mortgage markets are now doing it with food. Food prices will continue to soar not only because of increased demand but because food markets are the latest playground of the super rich. Furthermore, there are no jobs for young people. Machines are doing all the jobs that have traditionally been the preserve of young factory workers or else factories are simply relocated in cheaper places overseas.

Maybe it's just me being an incredible pessimist, but I struggle to see the 21st century being a very good one. I'm sensing that mankind has overstayed it's welcome and that earth would be better off with us going the way of the dodo.

Thoughts?

I've been telling y'all for years.


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I've been telling y'all for years.


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

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That is so vague though Bilbo. There have always been wars and rumours of wars and natural disasters. I actually get quite a kick about reading about the end of the world and watching programs on it. At times I am inclined to believe that some prophecies etc. are coming true, but by and large I can't buy in. It's interesting stuff though and it scares the shit out of me.

We've both been on the same wavelength regarding this issue a fair while now. I approach it from the non-biblical perspective, but the end result is likely much the same. I struggle to maintain any sense of positivity about mankind in general. I think there are a lot of good people on earth, but unfortunately they are too small to make any difference now. The big corporations continue to pillage and humanity continues to be herded by sheperds in shiny suits and government uniforms. Short term interests persist and man fails to realise that currency is a man made concept. What use is currency when nature has turned rogue?

All I can do is to keep on living and try and remain moral and good and influence those around me for the better. It isn't enough, but that's all one can do. Hopefully, I can die happy knowing that I was aware of the end days and tried my best not to contribute to the evil that caused it.

Good thread Miles!! Interesting reading.

Thanks Booze. I've no work today and my studies are over, so thought I would spend a little time contemplating the demise of humanity. It's not the happiest topic, but I really sense that things are around the corner and I can't see it being all that fun. I hope I'm wrong, I really do, but the portents are really not good. The next decade is going to be rough for everyone economically and beyond that nobody is doing anything about the environment. It's all lip service and saying the right things, but nobody is actually doing anything. Development has been so rapid over the past 200 hundred years, it's way too much. Even if it doesn't all result in the collapse of humanity things are still never going to be as good as 'back in the day'. I was reading the comments from a Guardian article looking at cuts in child benefit and came across this one that I quite liked...

"Child benefit should be paid for the eldest child only. After that, if you want any more children, you should pay for them yourself."
Oh I'm sure future generations will face this.
"Is it true you got child benefit for both myself and my brother, mum?"
"Yes dear"
"And grandma got free university education?"
"Yes dear"
"And dad got a pension?"
"Yes dear"
"And you both lived together in a reasonably priced home?"
"Yes dear"
"And you had two holidays a year?"
"Yes dear"
"And there was a minimum wage?"
"Yes dear"
"And, like, average people like yourselves could afford to get married and raise a family?"
"Yes dear"
"Why then, mum, is my generation expected to do without these things?"
"Hush dear"


Even if we do make it through the next 50 years or so I can see the quality of life being so much less.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I've been telling y'all for years.


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

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That is so vague though Bilbo. There have always been wars and rumours of wars and natural disasters. I actually get quite a kick about reading about the end of the world and watching programs on it. At times I am inclined to believe that some prophecies etc. are coming true, but by and large I can't buy in. It's interesting stuff though and it scares the shit out of me.

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There are tons or prophecies, most of them astonishingly specific. Some of the Old Testament prophecies concerning Jesus included:

http://www.bibleprobe.com/over-300-prophecies.pdf


Everything about his life, ministry, death and resurrection were propechised hundreds of years before his birth.

If you only want prophecies that have come true in the recent past, the reestablishment of Israel only happened in the 20th century.

. And it will be, when all these things come upon you the blessing and the curse which I have set before you that you will consider in your heart, among all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you,

2. and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children,

3. then, the Lord, your God, will bring back your exiles, and He will have mercy upon you. He will once again gather you from all the nations, where the Lord, your God, had dispersed you.

4. Even if your exiles are at the end of the heavens, the Lord, your God, will gather you from there, and He will take you from there.

5. And the Lord, your God, will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed, and you will take possession of it, and He will do good to you, and He will make you more numerous than your forefathers.
—Deuteronomy 30:1-5 [1]


That's pretty specific I think!


Thing to come in the futue include the abolition of money and having a microchip inserted into every human.


He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

After that we have a devastating nuclear war to look forward and an attack on Israel.

The Bible talks about all the nations of the earth surrounding Jeruselam, and capturing the city. Then it says their eyes will melt in their sockets, that their flesh will fall from their skin and all the kings and rich men will hide themselves in the caves under the earth.

It's a pretty bleak picture, and it all revolves around Isreal.

Jesus himself said Jerusalem would be trodden on by its enemies, and its land lie desolate until the times of the Gentiles be fufilled. That was less than 100 years ago. We are in the last times according to the Bible and for the last 2000 years the end time has expected to be the following.

Massive world wars, multiple earthquakes all over the world. The formation of a one world government. The abolition of money and the bringing in of a mark on the hand or forehead to buy and sell. The great increase of travel and knowledge. A world war centred on eliminating the state of Israel. Also the sun being given power to scorch the earth and the death of the fish in the sea.

I'd say all of that is coming true to a remarkable degree......

Humanity probably deserves what it gets for funding the phony state of Israel. I was reading that America gives them over 2.5 billion dollars a year and Obama is currently planning to fund a missile defence system on top of that. Meanwhile the ordinary Palestinians continue to suffer in poverty and those Palestinians in Israel are subject to terrible human rights abuses. The building of illegal settlements will likely continue without so much of a blink of the eye from the international community. "We want a nuclear free Middle East" cries Obama whilst forgetting the beast armed up to the eyeballs by current and former administrations and conveniently already allowed to have the bomb. "Oh, but we mustn't let Iran have them!" Hypocrisy everywhere.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me to see the region go up in flames at some point.

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Originally Posted by miles

Humanity probably deserves what it gets for funding the phony state of Israel. I was reading that America gives them over 2.5 billion dollars a year and Obama is currently planning to fund a missile defence system on top of that. Meanwhile the ordinary Palestinians continue to suffer in poverty and those Palestinians in Israel are subject to terrible human rights abuses. The building of illegal settlements will likely continue without so much of a blink of the eye from the international community. "We want a nuclear free Middle East" cries Obama whilst forgetting the beast armed up to the eyeballs by current and former administrations and conveniently already allowed to have the bomb. "Oh, but we mustn't let Iran have them!" Hypocrisy everywhere.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me to see the region go up in flames at some point.

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Indeed and that anti semitic sentiment will grow and grow over the next few decades until the whole world is against them.

But before you are to critical, just remember the Bible is very clear about the side that actually wins.

Forget backing the nations, and stick with the tiny illegally created state, they win in the end...TRUST ME!

As things stand I think Israel probably is the victor. It has been given all the advantages by being propped up by the US. As it stands Israel has a formidable military and by all accounts has nuclear weapons.

I'm not anti-semitic, I mean I'm happy for Jews to live their everyday lives in our societies with full human rights, but I do not think it was wise to create the nation of Israel. My issues usually lie with power control centres and the elites who make the big decisions and this is another of those. Israel was formed hastily in the aftermath of the holocaust and considering all the turmoil it has created for so many Palestinians over recent generations, I really don't believe it was neccessary. For the Israeli's in turn to treat Palestinian's living within their own borders so poorly has been a grave injustice. We try to put sanctions on countries like Iraq or Iran and yet go ahead and fund a rogue state like Israel. For me, it is wrong and highlights the hypocrisy of our governments.

Unless Israel changes I could never back them. The right, who maintain control in Israel, are a scary bunch and I don't think arguing that you are gods chosen people and that you have a divine right to land is the way to go. You should at least offer aid to the Palestinians and try to foster good will, but instead they deny rights and continue to be expansionist. It's an ugly mindset that I will never relate to. So, in this instance I will have to be against the Bible.

The point is that Israel always belonged to the Jews. It was plainly prophecised in the Bible that they would be returning and that no other nation should build there. It's not like the Arabs weren't aware of this, along with the rest of the world. Plus Isreal is a tiny place, no bigger than Wales. It's only the absolute inhumanity of the Arab states that offer no support or migration opportunties to the Palestinians that cause them to continue to the suffer the way they do.

Yeah, I see your point. I guess the reliance on the Bible is where we differ. I don't believe that the Bible is the book of God and I don't believe that any race or group of people have a divine right to land. God, for me, is simply a man made creation too. Not that I think the Bible is all fiction, the stories must have come from somewhere, but I don't regard the Bible as an all encompassing guide to life and what will be. It is a product of it's time and there are things I can readily agree with, but when it comes to the Jews I have to pause.

After WW2 there was no reason why European Jews couldn't have settled in America or remained in Europe. I don't see why it should be a case of turfing out the Palestinians to live in bordering countries when they were already settled where they were. It wasn't justified IMO and I don't think using the Bible is a way to cement the states credence.

I'm a little drunk at the moment so really only read the first couple posts...but no we are not near the end of humanity, today is actually one of the most peaceful times in human history, just think about it. Rome was not peace and prosper, more like conquer pillage and kill, the vikings, mongols, crusades, killing and pillaging on MASSIVE scales. As bad as we think as we have it with diseases we have no disease that's killing 1/4-1/3 of the population which I think the black plague and spanish influenza did. World war 2 60 years ago, 6 million jews dead in ovens, don't think we have anything that horrible happening today luckily. As for thinking the world is comming to an end they have found inscriptions from summeria where people thought the world is comming to an end, for some reason people from every generation think they are living in the end times or near the end times...yeah im drunk and the world is not comming to an end because beer and vodka are to dam delicious dam it@

I think one of the biggest challenges will be farming and sustaining enough food for an ever increasing global population. As global warming begins to take hold, I can see it playing havoc with crop yields. This along with the manipulation of the food commodities markets will lead to serious problems. I was watching an interview where it was mentioned how rice prices have actually tripled in the last few years alone. The financial players are boosting up the stock prices and when the market eventually crashes the prices are not actually going down at the retailers of the food commodity. Then they make another boom situation where the price gets even higher and when it crashes again the price will not come down for those buying the food. Demand hasn't actually increased that much and yet the cost of food is going up massively. Now later on when there will be increased demand and volatile conditions and people manipulating markets, that will lead to the poor suffering terribly.

I think global warming is real and the changes will be rapid. We've had 20 years to start doing something about it and to be honest we haven't done all that much. China and the US continue to burn ever increasing amounts of coal and our reliance on oil is as savage as ever. The oceans have become a vast overfished acidic reservoir. This whole humanity thing has expanded way beyond what it was a hundred years ago and I really feel that humans have lost the ability to keep a hold on it all. I can see global warming being far more significant than any of the prior calamities in human history because the numbers we are dealing with today are far vaster.

We all live in cities today and have no idea how to look after ourselves. I'm going to spend my time watching Survivorman and plan for the fallout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trzUn42ongs

2012: Should We Be Concerned? | Forbidden History

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Originally Posted by Andre

2012: Should We Be Concerned? | Forbidden History

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Thanks for that, interesting read. But I am now terrified and convinced I will die

There is definitely something going on beyond our control, and most likely will culminate in a mass extinction event of some kind. Such is life!
It has happened before, and will happen again and again and again...

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Originally Posted by Andre

2012: Should We Be Concerned? | Forbidden History

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Interesting link man, thanks for sharing.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

The point is that Israel always belonged to the Jews. It was plainly prophecised in the Bible that they would be returning and that no other nation should build there. It's not like the Arabs weren't aware of this, along with the rest of the world. Plus Isreal is a tiny place, no bigger than Wales. It's only the absolute inhumanity of the Arab states that offer no support or migration opportunties to the Palestinians that cause them to continue to the suffer the way they do.

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You are out of your goddamn mind if you think the Bible, which has (or should have) no bearing on anything regarding the Palestinian situation, is legitimate justification for what happened to the Palestinian Arabs. Furthermore, you're even more misinformed (I'm trying to be nice here) if you think that the other Arab nation opening their borders and accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees is an acceptable or realistic solution to the problem for anyone, including the Palestinians.

I'm just going to address that last point, because your claim about Biblical justification is so outlandish that I can't believe you, someone whose intelligence and perspective I normally respect and appreciate, actually believe it. By extension, I assume you'd be fine with all manner of fucked up persecutions and laws because they are authorize by a book which was composed under dubious circumstances thousands of years ago.

First, the Palestinians don't want to be incorporated into Egypt, Syria, Iran etc. and they should not be forced to. They want the homeland that they, fairly justifiably, feel was robbed from them and is now controlled by an extremely repressive and fundamentally racist group of colonizers. That is not a practical solution, obviously, but to expect them to just lay down and accept their fate is ludicrous. Secondly, no neigboring Arab nation would ever just accept that many Palestinian refugees, with their own political agenda's and power-structures into their country; just look what happened to Jordan in the 1980s. The problem with the Palestinian - Isaeli conflict (according to myself and others much smarter than I) is that there is no readily available solution to the problem. The entire situation is a goddamn mess and it has been since the First World War. A two-state solution is the only hope for peace, but even then it is extremely doubtful that the two sides could come to any agreement, especially with Israel (largely as a result of the U.S.) holding the majority of the power.

Sorry if this came across as harsh, as I'm sure it did, but I honestly could not be more fundamentally opposed to your perspective on this manner. I tried to avoid replying, but I could not help myself.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

The point is that Israel always belonged to the Jews. It was plainly prophecised in the Bible that they would be returning and that no other nation should build there. It's not like the Arabs weren't aware of this, along with the rest of the world. Plus Isreal is a tiny place, no bigger than Wales. It's only the absolute inhumanity of the Arab states that offer no support or migration opportunties to the Palestinians that cause them to continue to the suffer the way they do.

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You are out of your goddamn mind if you think the Bible, which has (or should have) no bearing on anything regarding the Palestinian situation, is legitimate justification for what happened to the Palestinian Arabs. Furthermore, you're even more misinformed (I'm trying to be nice here) if you think that the other Arab nation opening their borders and accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees is an acceptable or realistic solution to the problem for anyone, including the Palestinians.

I'm just going to address that last point, because your claim about Biblican justification is so outlandish that I can't believe you, someone whose intelligence and perspective I normally respect and appreciate, actually believe it. By extension, I assume you'd be fine with all manner of fucked up persecutions and laws because they are authorize by a book which was composed under dubious circumstances thousands of years ago.

First, the Palestinians don't want to be incorporated into Egypt, Syria, Iran etc. and they should not be forced to. They want the homeland that they, fairly justifiably, feel was robbed from them and is now controlled by an extremely repressive and fundamentally racist group of colonizers. That is not a practical solution, obviously, but to expect them to just lay down and accept their fate is ludicrous. Secondly, no neigboring Arab nation would ever just accept that many Palestinian refugees, with their own political agenda's and power-structures into their country; just look what happened to Jordan in the 1980s. The problem with the Palestinian - Isaeli conflict (according to myself and others much smarter than I) is that there is no readily available solution to the problem. The entire situation is a goddamn mess and it has been since the First World War. A two-state solution is the only hope for peace, but even then it is extremely doubtful that the two sides could come to any agreement, especially with Israel (largely as a result of the U.S.) holding the majority of the power.

Sorry if this came across as harsh, as I'm sure it did, but I honestly could not be more fundamentally opposed to your perspective on this manner. I tried to avoid replying, but I could not help myself.

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Nah it doesn't come across as harsh mate, nothing divides more than religious opinion.

You will think I'm crazy of course but I'd actually be scared if Israel ever compromised and gave up some of their land to the Palestinians as the Bible makes it clear their borders and what was given to them by God, and commanded by him that they keep.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

The point is that Israel always belonged to the Jews. It was plainly prophecised in the Bible that they would be returning and that no other nation should build there. It's not like the Arabs weren't aware of this, along with the rest of the world. Plus Isreal is a tiny place, no bigger than Wales. It's only the absolute inhumanity of the Arab states that offer no support or migration opportunties to the Palestinians that cause them to continue to the suffer the way they do.

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You are out of your goddamn mind if you think the Bible, which has (or should have) no bearing on anything regarding the Palestinian situation, is legitimate justification for what happened to the Palestinian Arabs. Furthermore, you're even more misinformed (I'm trying to be nice here) if you think that the other Arab nation opening their borders and accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees is an acceptable or realistic solution to the problem for anyone, including the Palestinians.

I'm just going to address that last point, because your claim about Biblican justification is so outlandish that I can't believe you, someone whose intelligence and perspective I normally respect and appreciate, actually believe it. By extension, I assume you'd be fine with all manner of fucked up persecutions and laws because they are authorize by a book which was composed under dubious circumstances thousands of years ago.

First, the Palestinians don't want to be incorporated into Egypt, Syria, Iran etc. and they should not be forced to. They want the homeland that they, fairly justifiably, feel was robbed from them and is now controlled by an extremely repressive and fundamentally racist group of colonizers. That is not a practical solution, obviously, but to expect them to just lay down and accept their fate is ludicrous. Secondly, no neigboring Arab nation would ever just accept that many Palestinian refugees, with their own political agenda's and power-structures into their country; just look what happened to Jordan in the 1980s. The problem with the Palestinian - Isaeli conflict (according to myself and others much smarter than I) is that there is no readily available solution to the problem. The entire situation is a goddamn mess and it has been since the First World War. A two-state solution is the only hope for peace, but even then it is extremely doubtful that the two sides could come to any agreement, especially with Israel (largely as a result of the U.S.) holding the majority of the power.

Sorry if this came across as harsh, as I'm sure it did, but I honestly could not be more fundamentally opposed to your perspective on this manner. I tried to avoid replying, but I could not help myself.

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Nah it doesn't come across as harsh mate, nothing divides more than religious opinion.

You will think I'm crazy of course but I'd actually be scared if Israel ever compromised and gave up some of their land to the Palestinians as the Bible makes it clear their borders and what was given to them by God, and commanded by him that they keep.

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Hope this doesn't lead to the thread going off course, but anyway...
I wanted to ask you Bilbo, does your faith in God and Religion come from the fact that you were raised with devotion or was it a certain event in your life that shaped your belief? Or maybe a combination of the two?
No reason for asking except curiosity by the way. ;)

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Originally Posted by Oggie

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

The point is that Israel always belonged to the Jews. It was plainly prophecised in the Bible that they would be returning and that no other nation should build there. It's not like the Arabs weren't aware of this, along with the rest of the world. Plus Isreal is a tiny place, no bigger than Wales. It's only the absolute inhumanity of the Arab states that offer no support or migration opportunties to the Palestinians that cause them to continue to the suffer the way they do.

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You are out of your goddamn mind if you think the Bible, which has (or should have) no bearing on anything regarding the Palestinian situation, is legitimate justification for what happened to the Palestinian Arabs. Furthermore, you're even more misinformed (I'm trying to be nice here) if you think that the other Arab nation opening their borders and accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees is an acceptable or realistic solution to the problem for anyone, including the Palestinians.

I'm just going to address that last point, because your claim about Biblican justification is so outlandish that I can't believe you, someone whose intelligence and perspective I normally respect and appreciate, actually believe it. By extension, I assume you'd be fine with all manner of fucked up persecutions and laws because they are authorize by a book which was composed under dubious circumstances thousands of years ago.

First, the Palestinians don't want to be incorporated into Egypt, Syria, Iran etc. and they should not be forced to. They want the homeland that they, fairly justifiably, feel was robbed from them and is now controlled by an extremely repressive and fundamentally racist group of colonizers. That is not a practical solution, obviously, but to expect them to just lay down and accept their fate is ludicrous. Secondly, no neigboring Arab nation would ever just accept that many Palestinian refugees, with their own political agenda's and power-structures into their country; just look what happened to Jordan in the 1980s. The problem with the Palestinian - Isaeli conflict (according to myself and others much smarter than I) is that there is no readily available solution to the problem. The entire situation is a goddamn mess and it has been since the First World War. A two-state solution is the only hope for peace, but even then it is extremely doubtful that the two sides could come to any agreement, especially with Israel (largely as a result of the U.S.) holding the majority of the power.

Sorry if this came across as harsh, as I'm sure it did, but I honestly could not be more fundamentally opposed to your perspective on this manner. I tried to avoid replying, but I could not help myself.

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Nah it doesn't come across as harsh mate, nothing divides more than religious opinion.

You will think I'm crazy of course but I'd actually be scared if Israel ever compromised and gave up some of their land to the Palestinians as the Bible makes it clear their borders and what was given to them by God, and commanded by him that they keep.

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Hope this doesn't lead to the thread going off course, but anyway...
I wanted to ask you Bilbo, does your faith in God and Religion come from the fact that you were raised with devotion or was it a certain event in your life that shaped your belief? Or maybe a combination of the two?
No reason for asking except curiosity by the way. ;)

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Actually neither. My faith in God arose through wanting to study evolution. i went out and bought all the books on evolution and paleontology to try and learn about and thought, 'actually this is bollocks', and then started looking at the Bible and creationism. It just fits the world model so much better imo.

I read most of Richard Dawkins works, and thought to myself, 'hang on, there is actually no evidence for evolution here, it's just religion and philosophy'. Funnily enough in his latest book he actually agrees, saying the following

' Once again, however, these three books, although they cleared away the stumbling blocks, did not present the actual evidence that evolution is a fact. My largest book, the Ancestor's Tale, laid out the full course of the history of life, as a sort of ancestor-seeking Chauecerian pilgramage going backwards in time, but it again assumed evolution is true.
Looking back on those books, I realized that the evidence for evolution was nowhere explicitly set out, and that this was a serious gap that I needed to close..'

That was was Dawkins' own words in the preface to his latest book, 'The Greatest Show on Earth' released last to celebrate the bicentennial year of Darwins birth and the 150 th anniversary of the publication of the Origins of Species.

So even Dawkins, the world's strongest and most famous evolutionist of the last 30 years admits that up until 2009 none of his books actually contained any evidence for evolution but rather just told the story.

So his is latest book different? Did he finally give us the evidence we craved? Well I guess that's for the reader to decide, but I bought it, read it, and it just convinced me further that evolution and atheism are the rantings of deluded loons.

I'm not religious, at all, I don't go to church, I certainly don't live a Christian life, but studying both sides over the last 20 years has left me totally convinced as to the authenticity of the Bible and the absolute cluelessness of those who seek to come up with alternative theories starting from, 'In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded...'.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Oggie

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

The point is that Israel always belonged to the Jews. It was plainly prophecised in the Bible that they would be returning and that no other nation should build there. It's not like the Arabs weren't aware of this, along with the rest of the world. Plus Isreal is a tiny place, no bigger than Wales. It's only the absolute inhumanity of the Arab states that offer no support or migration opportunties to the Palestinians that cause them to continue to the suffer the way they do.

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You are out of your goddamn mind if you think the Bible, which has (or should have) no bearing on anything regarding the Palestinian situation, is legitimate justification for what happened to the Palestinian Arabs. Furthermore, you're even more misinformed (I'm trying to be nice here) if you think that the other Arab nation opening their borders and accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees is an acceptable or realistic solution to the problem for anyone, including the Palestinians.

I'm just going to address that last point, because your claim about Biblican justification is so outlandish that I can't believe you, someone whose intelligence and perspective I normally respect and appreciate, actually believe it. By extension, I assume you'd be fine with all manner of fucked up persecutions and laws because they are authorize by a book which was composed under dubious circumstances thousands of years ago.

First, the Palestinians don't want to be incorporated into Egypt, Syria, Iran etc. and they should not be forced to. They want the homeland that they, fairly justifiably, feel was robbed from them and is now controlled by an extremely repressive and fundamentally racist group of colonizers. That is not a practical solution, obviously, but to expect them to just lay down and accept their fate is ludicrous. Secondly, no neigboring Arab nation would ever just accept that many Palestinian refugees, with their own political agenda's and power-structures into their country; just look what happened to Jordan in the 1980s. The problem with the Palestinian - Isaeli conflict (according to myself and others much smarter than I) is that there is no readily available solution to the problem. The entire situation is a goddamn mess and it has been since the First World War. A two-state solution is the only hope for peace, but even then it is extremely doubtful that the two sides could come to any agreement, especially with Israel (largely as a result of the U.S.) holding the majority of the power.

Sorry if this came across as harsh, as I'm sure it did, but I honestly could not be more fundamentally opposed to your perspective on this manner. I tried to avoid replying, but I could not help myself.

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Nah it doesn't come across as harsh mate, nothing divides more than religious opinion.

You will think I'm crazy of course but I'd actually be scared if Israel ever compromised and gave up some of their land to the Palestinians as the Bible makes it clear their borders and what was given to them by God, and commanded by him that they keep.

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Hope this doesn't lead to the thread going off course, but anyway...
I wanted to ask you Bilbo, does your faith in God and Religion come from the fact that you were raised with devotion or was it a certain event in your life that shaped your belief? Or maybe a combination of the two?
No reason for asking except curiosity by the way. ;)

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Actually neither. My faith in God arose through wanting to study evolution. i went out and bought all the books on evolution and paleontology to try and learn about and thought, 'actually this is bollocks', and then started looking at the Bible and creationism. It just fits the world model so much better imo.

I read most of Richard Dawkins works, and thought to myself, 'hang on, there is actually no evidence for evolution here, it's just religion and philosophy'. Funnily enough in his latest book he actually agrees, saying the following

' Once again, however, these three books, although they cleared away the stumbling blocks, did not present the actual evidence that evolution is a fact. My largest book, the Ancestor's Tale, laid out the full course of the history of life, as a sort of ancestor-seeking Chauecerian pilgramage going backwards in time, but it again assumed evolution is true.
Looking back on those books, I realized that the evidence for evolution was nowhere explicitly set out, and that this was a serious gap that I needed to close..'

That was was Dawkins' own words in the preface to his latest book, 'The Greatest Show on Earth' released last to celebrate the bicentennial year of Darwins birth and the 150 th anniversary of the publication of the Origins of Species.

So even Dawkins, the world's strongest and most famous evolutionist of the last 30 years admits that up until 2009 none of his books actually contained any evidence for evolution but rather just told the story.

So his is latest book different? Did he finally give us the evidence we craved? Well I guess that's for the reader to decide, but I bought it, read it, and it just convinced me further that evolution and atheism are the rantings of deluded loons.

I'm not religious, at all, I don't go to church, I certainly don't live a Christian life, but studying both sides over the last 20 years has left me totally convinced as to the authenticity of the Bible and the absolute cluelessness of those who seek to come up with alternative theories starting from, 'In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded...'.

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That is interesting man, thanks for sharing it.
Never heard of anyone finding God through the study of evolution before, good stuff. When people think of evolution today, they always consider it a scientific fact. Well, the general Joe on the street does anyway... but it is all based on theory really. Much like everything else in life, it is just humans searching for something to believe in!

Reminds me of a quote by the comedian Dylan Moran;
"And this evolution stuff is rubbish. I mean, think about it, it doesn't sound very smart... there has to be more than just 'Bang! *Monkey sounds* Honey I'm home!' Besides, it's much more interesting if the order is reversed..." :lolhaha:

As for myself, I'm not really a firm believer (or disbeliever) in either of them really. I'm pretty much open to all possibilities, including those we (as of yet) know nothing about! The idea of a potential afterlife is a comforting thought though.

thanks for the article on 2012 andre.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andre

2012: Should We Be Concerned? | Forbidden History

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Interesting stuff, Andre. I recall watching a documentary about a month ago about the weakening of the earths magnetic fields. The influence of factors both within the earth and activities within our own solar system went a bit over my head in contemplating the future collapse of humanity. Yes, that's more to worry about and might well prove problematic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by miles

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andre

2012: Should We Be Concerned? | Forbidden History

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Interesting stuff, Andre. I recall watching a documentary about a month ago about the weakening of the earths magnetic fields. The influence of factors both within the earth and activities within our own solar system went a bit over my head in contemplating the future collapse of humanity. Yes, that's more to worry about and might well prove problematic.

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Penn and Teller's documentary on 2012 pretty much nailed how I feel about this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN5sNXxe498

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQP_51ek7Oo&feature=related

It's also fucking hilarious by the way.

This is going to sound lame but hell you mean to tell me the mayans could foresee the end of the world in the year 2012...yet they failed to see the coming of the spanish and with them their own undoing, I mean for heaven's sakes at first they thought the spanish were gods themselves...Also everything I've read about the mayans nowhere does it really say what happens in 2012, just a new begining of their calendar and a "new time", not really the end of the world. Guess what tho "beginning of new time" doesn't sell nearly as much crap as "2012 the end of the world" it's all a marketing ploy, and we will just be fine and around for the year 2013. As for that link well its not as crazy as some of the other stuff on the subject because it actually deals with stuff pertaining to pole shifts and magnetism, but I guarantee you there is a scientist somewhere saying the exact opposite of that article....also if the end is coming who cares what can ya do about it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by armin

This is going to sound lame but hell you mean to tell me the mayans could foresee the end of the world in the year 2012...yet they failed to see the coming of the spanish and with them their own undoing, I mean for heaven's sakes at first they thought the spanish were gods themselves...Also everything I've read about the mayans nowhere does it really say what happens in 2012, just a new begining of their calendar and a "new time", not really the end of the world. Guess what tho "beginning of new time" doesn't sell nearly as much crap as "2012 the end of the world" it's all a marketing ploy, and we will just be fine and around for the year 2013. As for that link well its not as crazy as some of the other stuff on the subject because it actually deals with stuff pertaining to pole shifts and magnetism, but I guarantee you there is a scientist somewhere saying the exact opposite of that article....also if the end is coming who cares what can ya do about it

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I agree the Mayan thing is even less credible than Nostradomus.

To be fair the Mayans saw the Knights Templar's crosses flying on those Spanish galleons and thought they were friends returning.

Not all who sailed the seven seas back then were pillaging in the name of God; only one false part that was attempting to form a world religion were behind doing that in combination with colonizing. The Spanish were linked to Romes ideals of the inquisitions and torture, burning people on fires etc.

(Devils in disguise over taking the religion of love and Gods freedom of choice or free will for all souls).

They are still here collecting for themselves. Chatting parrot like from a scripture that has been tampered with; they speak about an ancient wisdom and a way of ascension that they dont actually practice themselves, but instead they continue to preach fear and punishment for the ultimate control over as many as they can steal away from the true Christ light.

You can tell if a group is working from the darker energies or the light side from their history, from their actions throughout the ages. Only actions speak real truth.