Jab seems to be the most tiring punch ! also getting bored on the bags...

Hi,

I go to a whitecollar boxing type gym and I'm hoping to step up my training and move on to sparring,
I have done bits of boxing training over the yrs and know the basics, last yr I did quite a bit of weights and this year I have been focusing more on boxing, I've been doing the heavy bag just under my own guidance the last couple of months and I'm starting to get a bit bored now and want to step up my stamina and defence and do a bit of sparring. I've tried to keep this in mind when hitting the bags but
Weird thing is I find the jab tiring to throw, I'm not sure if this just a bad habit built up from nrly all my boxing training being on the heavy bags, I love throwing hooks and combinations (don't we all!) and I have some pretty good speed and power in my hooks and straight right, but my jab is limp and find it really tiring and boring and run out of motivation and go back to what I know.

I did fairly recently change my gloves from 14oz to 16oz but which made me a bit slower but I thought I'd be used to it by now.

Should I just bite the bullet and go for the sparring ? I am a bit worried my stamina and jab are going to let me down but can't seem to improve these on my own and need the motivation of training with other ppl.

Also anyone have any recommendations on headgear/gum shield for sparring ?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

Andy

Hey Andy

The jab issue sounds like a technique problem. Straight shots are the most economic to throw (the fastest and most efficient way from point A to point B is a straight line). Check out this article on how to throw a boxing jab, then get in front of a mirror and do some self analysis;

• Are either of your hands dropping before/as the shot is thrown?
• Is your elbow 'flaring' to your left as the shot goes?
• Are you throwing your weight forward with the shot (check this out by examining your stance side view or 'in profile'). This shouldn't happen for 2 reasons 1) the risk of getting punched in the face and adding your weight to your opponent's and 2) the shot becomes dreadfully inefficient and unnecessarily tiring.
• Again, the jab should be an effortless shot, a shot that we can always rely on no matter at what point of the contest we ar ein or how tired we are.

In terms of bagwork' 'Theme' your rounds. E.g. Round 1, all long range, plenty of foot movement. Round 2, go for short range, big body shots (I'm gonna be JC Chavez in this round!) etc. Mimic the style of your favourite boxers. If there's any posters in the gym, have a little read of them in between rounds, this will give you a lift for the first few seconds of the next round.

Does this go some way to answering your question?

Cheers

Fran

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Originally Posted by wytster

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Weird thing is I find the jab tiring to throw, I'm not sure if this just a bad habit built up from nrly all my boxing training being on the heavy bags, I love throwing hooks and combinations (don't we all!) and I have some pretty good speed and power in my hooks and straight right, but my jab is limp and find it really tiring and boring and run out of motivation and go back to what I know.

I did fairly recently change my gloves from 14oz to 16oz but which made me a bit slower but I thought I'd be used to it by now.

Should I just bite the bullet and go for the sparring ? I am a bit worried my stamina and jab are going to let me down but can't seem to improve these on my own and need the motivation of training with other ppl.

Also anyone have any recommendations on headgear/gum shield for sparring ?
...

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First, check all the stuff in Fran's post, that is all more important that what I am going to add. If you haven't got the mechanics right, that will not only fatigue you but will also ingrain the bad habit and might even INJURE your elbow, shoulder, or wrist.

I too noticed my (properly thrown) jab was more tiring, but the reason (in my case) was pretty obvious:

Coach wants us to always throw jabs when moving and to throw multiple jabs a LOT. The result was that I just throw a LOT MORE jabs than anything else. So of course those specific muscles would get fatigued.

Second, the jab is almost entirely an arm punch (some shoulder etc too of course) as compared the other punches which make far more use of shoulders, back, hips, and legs.

The jab is also the 'fastest' punch, so throwing several is done very rapidly.

So if you are trying to go hard and fast you will naturally fatigue the jab more quickly.

Third, if you are going hard, and try TOO HARD, you will be not only fatiguing the muscle more quickly but also putting extra tension into your body (which is much worse because it) actually holds your jab BACK AND USES MORE OXYGEN AND ENERGY from the muscles.

You must relax to throw fast jabs (to throw anything really, but especially this punch.)

Finally breathing: If you go fast with a jab there is even more of a tendency to hold your breath, breath shallowly, or otherwise mess up your breathing -- you must continue to breath fully and this may not time out WITH the jab but needs to be continuous across all of your movements.

The first problems (more jabs, arm punch) will likely take care of themselves as you gain conditioning.

The others require you to consciously train to hit with deep relaxation and breathing while not trying to go any fast or harder than you can stay relaxed.

On relaxation, recognize clearly that there is a STRONG tendency to tighten the entire arm when you throw a "hard" punch. That means that no only the triceps (etc) tightens to extend the arm, but the BICEP (etc) tightens sympathetically at the same time.

If your bicep only tightens 20% you will have to overcome that with part of the ability of your tricep -- you are losing 20% of your speed and strength to unnecessary opposing tension. Not only that, but you are burning oxygen and energy in a muscle that SHOULD be doing NOTHING.

But it is worse than that: On the return (retracting your fist) you will be doing the same thing: the bicep should fire alone, but the tricep is resisting. Not only the stuff above happens, but now you are actually TIRING the tricep while retracting when it SHOULD be getting a (brief) rest (uptake of new oxygen and energy).

Also, tight muscles inhibit blood flow, so not only are you using up more oxygen, you are making it more difficult to get more blood, and therefore new oxygen, into there.


If you want to go faster, try to concentrate on RETRACT SPEED -- I think it is mostly psychological, but this makes the whole punch speed up for me without seeming to add tension. It seems to keep you from "trying too hard" to HIT but the HIT still is improved. It's also a very good habit to have your hand back rapidly.

Relax and Breath, concentrate on the return speed rather than directly on the punch speed.

At worst the above ideas will give you more stamina and staying power even if they don't make your jab any better (they do that also for me.)

This also impact on your question about sparring: If you are already fatiguing and gassing out, despite your being in decent shape, you ALMOST CERTAINLY NEED TO RELAX and/or BREATH more thoroughly and smoothly.

Fatigue is always about using up the oxygen and the energy molecules in the muscle. Use less, and you have more available to go longer and harder.

Another advantage: A relaxed punch hits both HARDER and FASTER (no resistance from opposing muscles). You only tighten the fist/arm RIGHT AT the MOMENT of IMPACT, for just a fraction of a second.

So if you are going to spar you are going to be REALLY GASSED, unless you can relax. Why?

For most people sparring is a tension producing exercise (anticipation, excitement, apprehension, fear, etc all help produce TENSION). If you are already tense (or not in condition) then adding even more tension during sparring just zaps you and is generally "bad training" (it just trains you to be tense instead of training you to RELAX.)

It's a feed back loop. The more tension and failure to breath the more fatigue the more apprehension (or fear) the more tension and the poorer your breathing.

Turn it around relax, breath, and HAVE FUN and you will find it easier to RELAX and BREATH while moving and hitting more easily and harder.

I like my BrainPad mouthguard. It's the 'best' one for impact sports. http://www.brainpads.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44:br ain-pad-protective-mouth-guard-line-up&catid=49:brain-pad-all-styles-mouth-guard- info&Itemid=54 (I think this model is even newer than mine, I paid about $30 on eBay).

Have FUN!

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HerbM

Thanks Fran and HerbM for your replies,

makes sense what your saying, when I first started training yrs ago a trainer told me that my jab wasn't strong enough and to put my weight behind it so I think unfortunately I have adopted a bad habit from then on where I step forward and try and put my weight behind the jab every time I throw it.

I agree that a relaxed punch is faster and more efficient than tensing up, I think I have reasonable technique with this on the straight right I will try to start fixing my jab atn the gym tonight.

Would you recommend using some small weights to strengthen muscles for more of an 'arm punch' jab ?

Theming the rounds sounds like a cool idea, usually I just see the red mist and gas myself out ! I will try this technique too.

Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by wytster

Thanks Fran and HerbM for your replies,

...put my weight behind it so I think unfortunately I have adopted a bad habit from then on where I step forward and try and put my weight behind the jab every time I throw it.
...
Would you recommend using some small weights to strengthen muscles for more of an 'arm punch' jab ?
...

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There is nothing AUTOMATICALLY wrong with putting your weight behind a jab -- how do you do this (besides stepping) -- but you need to to do it properly and probably should not have this as you "only jab". There are range finding jabs that just flick out and there are power jabs (Dempsey calls this the "left jolt" to distinguish it from an arm jab.)

But in general, you are going to be throwing far more jabs than anything else, probably 3-1 jabs to straight rights, etc

As to weights, I am not the best person to ask (haven't tried it) but I have seen recommendation to do this AND recommendations to avoid it like the plague (easy to screw up your elbow).

IF you do it, I would recommend lying on your back (on the weight bench is best but floor should work). By lifting/punching the weight UPWARDS you will get more resistance from gravity and this will also help you STOP the weight without having to either put tension into your opposing muscle OR by hyperextending your elbow.

That "tension in the opposing muscle" is precisely (part of) what we wish to avoid for a fast, snappy, hard jab.

If you are punching with weight SOMETHING has to STOP all of that MOMENTUM when you punch. It's either your muscles OR you elbow joint that must do that.

When we punch hard against a bag, we can let the BAG STOP the PUNCH.

Personally on the bag, I don't ever "stop my punch" -- the BAG does. I yank it back but only after the bag absorbs all of the forward momentum.

Now, some of this comes from Russian Systema hitting, and I can occasionally get accused of pushing the bag, but I assure you this is a much harder punch. When sparring with me, it is common for my partner to say, "Your punches are JUST HEAVY".

Systema is known for producing deep, hard, destructive punches, even from a short distance and without (needing) weight transfer. You can add weight transfer to a Systema punch, but usually that is not a necessity.

Systema (and Boxing) both emphasize relaxing as much a possible at all times, especially when hitting. The only tension you need in a punch is the muscle(s) which powers the punch AND MAYBE right at the moment of impact you tighten the wrist and hand enough to protect the joints.

The good thing about relaxed hitting is that it is now only faster (and deeper) it is also far less tiring.


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HerbM

While jabbing i step on the front foot but only a little 5-10cm then the left shoulder turns in as the lead arm is pushed out (eyes look straight down the arm), The lead arm should only twist at the very end making it harder, then the arm is pulled back at the same time the shouder is also pulled back.

As this is all happening the legs are moving also.
The front leg after the small step is straightening, pivoting and pushing back (Your ass should move away from where you are punching) and the rear leg pushes forward.
This gives you more reach and pushes you away from any body counter.

This is all from a squated wide stance with the rear leg bent. up on your rear toe with the foot facing forward.
You should be relaxed as stated, with only the hand tensing before impact.
A fast jab will bring a shock factor to the opponent as they wont see it coming as easily as a hard jab with a tensed arm that appears to come from 2 streets away.

I am quiet tall with a long reach over 2m:lickish:. And this is how i get the most out of my reach. The jab is very important to my game and im always working on it. I probably throw 4-5 or more jabs:1 of other punches. And i work it like that on the bag also.

Wytster: As your shadow boxing you could try get a squash ball and put a small cut in in 2-3mm then put it in your hand(I use middle and ring finger to hold it). As you punch just hold the ball and as your about to hit your imaginary target (full extension) squeeze the ball/clench your fist it should make a hiss. Then relax the hand again and pull it back. This should help you to relax the muscles in the arm whilst punching.

I think the best way to throw a jab is to keep your hands up, always..the fire those jabs and stick your hand to your chin after you throw it..;)

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Originally Posted by Aussie_Egg

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As this is all happening the legs are moving also.
The front leg after the small step is straightening, pivoting and pushing back (Your ass should move away from where you are punching) and the rear leg pushes forward.
This gives you more reach and pushes you away from any body counter.

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I don't understand how you get "more reach" if your "ass should move away" -- would please elaborate on this?

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I am quiet tall with a long reach over 2m:lickish:. And this is how i get the most out of my reach. The jab is very important to my game and im always working on it. I probably throw 4-5 or more jabs:1 of other punches. And i work it like that on the bag also.

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Ok, I am not tall (5'10") and have very long arms for my size, but even I am jealous of 2 METERS (I'm close but not THAT close.):o

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Wytster: As your shadow boxing you could try get a squash ball...squeeze the ball/clench your fist it should make a hiss. Then relax the hand again and pull it back. This should help you to relax the muscles in the arm whilst punching.

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What a cool idea!

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Originally Posted by HerbM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aussie_Egg

...
As this is all happening the legs are moving also.
The front leg after the small step is straightening, pivoting and pushing back (Your ass should move away from where you are punching) and the rear leg pushes forward.
This gives you more reach and pushes you away from any body counter.

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I don't understand how you get "more reach" if your "ass should move away" -- would please elaborate on this?

It is hard to explain ill get the missus to take a few pics when she is home from work it will be alot easier. Or ill probably confuse you more, it is hard to get your head around but it works. And i probably shouldn't say "ass moves away" But more upwards and not forward. Pics to come;)

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I am quiet tall with a long reach over 2m:lickish:. And this is how i get the most out of my reach. The jab is very important to my game and im always working on it. I probably throw 4-5 or more jabs:1 of other punches. And i work it like that on the bag also.

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Ok, I am not tall (5'10") and have very long arms for my size, but even I am jealous of 2 METERS (I'm close but not THAT close.):o

Its handy but have a way to go to use it very effectively.

Quote:

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Wytster: As your shadow boxing you could try get a squash ball...squeeze the ball/clench your fist it should make a hiss. Then relax the hand again and pull it back. This should help you to relax the muscles in the arm whilst punching.

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What a cool idea!

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It helped me so thought it could help Wyster. Pretty crude but i found effective and its cheap.

cheers for the replies guys,

I've got my jab a bit smoother now not putting my weight into it every time, I think I just need to keep training to strengthen my shoulder, going to try sparring class in the next couple of wks.

I agree with everyone on here. Get that technique right for sure is the first thing. Also as much as you dislike the heavy bag, start goin about 5 plus rounds of nothing but jab on the heavy to condition that arm and shoulder.

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Originally Posted by cambay411

I agree with everyone on here. Get that technique right for sure is the first thing. Also as much as you dislike the heavy bag, start goin about 5 plus rounds of nothing but jab on the heavy to condition that arm and shoulder.

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That recommendation for "5 plus rounds" seems a bit long to me.

Ok, I am an "old guy" at 58 this week, but usually I can outlast most of the young guys, and we only do three (3 min) rounds of hitting, all punches, and them MAYBE 2 x 1 minute 'rounds' of 'burn out' (hard left-right, left-right).

Maybe you are right about 5+ rounds, but I am remain unsure we can know that without knowing what else he is doing and how hard he is going at those rounds.

Of course it is summer here in Texas, and we are pushing close to 95 degrees (F) here in the gym, and higher humidity than we are used to having.

The heat has been zapping me pretty bad even.

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HerbM

Thanks all, I myself was doing too much of a full bodied step in -- rather than doing a "Fall Step" - need to make my jab more effortless. What holds me back is the fear of wasting jabs etc

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Originally Posted by BodyOfWork165

Thanks all, I myself was doing too much of a full bodied step in -- rather than doing a "Fall Step" - need to make my jab more effortless. What holds me back is the fear of wasting jabs etc

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Jabs are cheap, almost free, and plentiful, almost infinite. Use 'em or lose 'em, since a jab you don't throw is forever gone.

Seriously, my Coach says, "If he throws one, you throw three."

While that might not be perfect advice, the point is to keep him busy. And not all of those 'jabs' need to be power jabs. They include range finding, distraction, feints, setups, blinding jabs, 'keep him honest' jabs, 'keep him off', and of course power jabs.

I like the falling step because I can tack it on RIGHT NEAR THE END of the jab when I can be sure I am going to make good contact, and all without over-committing my weight (it goes to the hand, and the front foot goes right back to the floor to take the weight back almost immediately.)

lol I like that Herb use em or lose em, thats a good way to put it! Couldnt be more true if you ask me!

I have heard jabs called the 'queen of boxing'. Most judges in amateur fighting look for the number of punches thrown and the jab becomes critical. Ask your coach if you can do jab drills with another more experienced fighter in the ring. That should put some challenge into your skill and expose any flaws in your delivery. Also a good way to polish up your slips and defense. Your partner can critique you between rounds and maybe give you some pointers. We use to refer to this a 'drills'. It was a step up from the heavy bag, and before full sparring.

Grey Lion what drills are there to work on the jab?

How about shadow sparring (no real contact, like shadow boxing for two boxers together) with ONLY Jabs allowed.

Or YOU only get jabs and he gets both hands etc.

Jab drills are very simple, and I trained with them in the 60's. You get in the ring with a more experienced fighter. For the first three minutes you throw nothing but jabs at him and he slips. He does not return a punch. Rest one minute. Then next round he throws jabs and you slip without returning a punch. You alternate for however long you can last. It's more challenging then any bag. Most important, it is a great way to be critiques by another fighter or your coach. From jab drills, you can work on throwing nothing but rights, body shots, hooks or whatever. Then we worked into 'anything goes' and at that point you were sparring. I am 67 yrs old. Some of the terms I use may not be current, and some of the training methods I had may be out of style. It was my fortune to train with some old fighters who knew, or fought against some of the famous fighters from the 20's to 50's. I recall some of them telling about having to 'chop wood' or 'bust bolders with sledge hammers' as part of their training. When I work with a student, I have him hammer large grader tires with a sledge hammer at different angles, to build up the arms and shoulders.

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Originally Posted by Gray Lion

Jab drills are very simple, and I trained with them in the 60's. You get in the ring with a more experienced fighter. For the first three minutes you throw nothing but jabs at him and he slips. He does not return a punch. Rest one minute. Then next round he throws jabs and you slip without returning a punch. You alternate for however long you can last. It's more challenging then any bag. Most important, it is a great way to be critiques by another fighter or your coach. From jab drills, you can work on throwing nothing but rights, body shots, hooks or whatever. Then we worked into 'anything goes' and at that point you were sparring. I am 67 yrs old. Some of the terms I use may not be current, and some of the training methods I had may be out of style. It was my fortune to train with some old fighters who knew, or fought against some of the famous fighters from the 20's to 50's. I recall some of them telling about having to 'chop wood' or 'bust bolders with sledge hammers' as part of their training. When I work with a student, I have him hammer large grader tires with a sledge hammer at different angles, to build up the arms and shoulders.

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The drills you posted actually work great. I've done similar with sparring partners, and it really helps you alot. It also helps a lot with feints, since you only have one punch in your arsenal to start you have to really throw the person on defense off and vice versa. It helps the defender separate feints from actual shots coming towards him.

I haven't spent too much time working this as I'm still working on getting a good grip on technique, then I'll go back to it and really spend a lot of time doing this.

Thanks for sharing.

The good old jab - of course it does not have to be boring - remember the movie with Forrest Gump and Bubba. Remember when Bubba kept talking about shrimp and all the varieties of cooking and the variety of shrimp dishes. Well replace the word shrimp with the word jab, and there is a whole heap of cooking one can do in the ring or gym with the left jab - the only question now is the to get the "Left Jab" Cookbook for flashy jabs and sizzling jabs, speedy jabs and power jabs. THe ultimate test is to fight a fight and only use the left jabs and still do enough cooking to win the fight.

The jab tells you where you are in relation to where the other guy is, trouble is, its telling Him where you are. Boring, never ;D