Just curious about what the general consensus is in regards to whom was better. My cousins argue over this one constantly as many feel that Pernell had the ability to win an easy decision while others say Duran wins easily.
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Just curious about what the general consensus is in regards to whom was better. My cousins argue over this one constantly as many feel that Pernell had the ability to win an easy decision while others say Duran wins easily.
Sweet pea would make Duran look like chavez...it would pr should be a victory for Sweet pea but they'll rob him and give Duran a draw.
I'm a huge Chavez fan, but I think Duran was technically a more complete fighter.
I just watched Duran v Leonard 1 and his inside work was marvellous.
at lightweight, roberto duran would beat pernell whitaker going away. it would definitely go the distance cause whitaker would run all night. there is no way whitaker would stand and trade with duran and would just fight defensively. i don't think it would be a very attractive fight cause whilst duran would want to make it a fight, whitaker would be too cautious and make it a track meet. duran by UD12 by scores of 117-111.
That's the thing, I see that scenario as a possibility but I picture Duran knocking him out late via cutting off the ring effectively and a great body attack or Sweet Pea being on his game and popping Duran and moving all night en route to an easy decision, making him look foolish in the process.
The last time we saw Roberto Duran at his peak was the first Leonard fight, he had been fighting for 12 years before that. He was the most dominate Lightweight in history, i like Pernell Whitaker, i just don't see him beating Roberto Duran at Lightweight.
You're a new poster on this board, so you will soon see that majority of the posters on here see Duran as some sort of lightweight God...I on the other hand is considered a heretic on the guy...I think Sweet pea, and floyd would both beat him at LW and Mosley would absolutely crush him...Quote:
Originally Posted by chinchekked
I would personally go for Swea Pea , i think he would win a UD 116-112 , but of course Duran is a wonderful fighter , its a difficult one to pick but i go for Whitaker.
It wouldn't be an easy fight for either guy. Thats just plain silly. In all reality its most likely 50/50. However, I'd give just an ever so slight edge to Duran due to his power and relentlessness. With that said, Pernell is one of my favorite fighters of all time. I think Roberto looks silly early due to Peas speed, but the lack of power from Whitaker wouldn't be enough to keep Duran off of him in the later rounds.
Pernell Whitaker by UD he beat very good pressure fighters like. Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez, Julio Cesar Chavez, Jorge Paez, ETC.
And for the person who said Pernell Whitaker would make it a track meet, have you seen Pernell Whitaker at Lightweight ? he could easily throw 100 punches a round and would often stand his ground making you miss and making you pay.
Roberto Duran did beat some underrated boxers at Lightweight like Vilomar Fernandez, but i don't think he ever really beat a great fighter at Lightweight. Esteban De Jesus was good but not great. Ken Buchanan is the only one but even that had some controversy.
Roberto Duran had very good defense for a pressure fighter, a steady body and head attack. Aswell as cutting off the ring good, but he could be outboxed.
And i think Pernell Whitaker with his great angles, footwork, speed, elusiveness, would be able to win a close UD.
And remember Pernell Whitaker had underrated toughness aswell, he got his jaw broke in the 2nd round while past his prime vs Felix Trinidad. And he still made it too the 12th round.
There's a reason Pernell Whitaker has never legitmately been stopped, and thats because aswell as a great defense. He had underrated toughness.
Pernell by decision IMO. His slick style and reflexes would have given Duran fits IMO. It would be a tough fight though.
I think anyone who thinks Duran would win easily or run away with this fight is severely underrating Pernell's abilities. Pernell is easily one of the greatest boxing wizards of all time and he proved it consistently against dynamite opposition.
Well, I'll first let the people who do not know I am the #1 Duran fan on here read this and move on...
Duran had a way of muscling his opponents into a different kind of fight than they were ready for (at LW). It's like they watch the tapes, they heard about the game, but it made fighters break down their game plan in short time. Duran stalks, yes, but he also hit you in the arms, chest, neck, and if you were lucky enough he'd hit you on the chin. He kissed the canvas quite a few times in his career at lightweight, too.
Whittaker had lightning fast reflexes. My favorite was when he would squat almost to the canvas articulate his head like it's a bobble head and *BAM*. He didn't exactly have a punch, but he had an arsenal, and he was in the best shape humanly possible.
Duran takes the fight to Whittaker and takes control by the 3rd round. Whittaker would surely make a mid-fight surge, but Duran puts the pedal back to the floor to take the decision. It's one thing to back up and win a fight, but Whittaker wouldn't be able to keep Duran honest. Whittaker would SURELY have his moments, and maybe even a KD early.
115-112 Duran
or
144-141 Duran... for those who remembered this would be a 15-rd fight ;)
Can you put a poll on this thread?
I am interested to see what sort of fan base we have here.
:lickish:
Pernell Whitaker could actually punch, its just he often boxed on the backfoot. And you obviously can't get full power when your on the backfoot. Watch his KO of Disobelys Hurtado when he had to come forward, and tell me he can't punch.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyFolds
He also stunned JCC a few times, and watch his single shot knockdown of Wilfredo Rivera. There's many other examples but i don't feel like going into all of them.
Im not saying he was a devastating puncher, but his KO record is misleading. Because as i said he often just wanted to box on the backfoot and cruise to an easy UD victory.
You also have to take into account the opposition, i mean its hard to stop fighters like.
Wilfredo Rivera
Felix Trinidad
ODLH
Julio Cesar Chavez
Azumah Nelson
Greg Haugen
Rafael Pineda
Jorge Paez
Jose Luis Ramirez
Buddy McGirt
Julio Cesar Vasquez
And most of these fighters were at there peak when Pernell Whitaker fought them, i mean atleast 6 fighters on that list had great chins. Whilst the others were also pretty tough customers, its hard to have a high KO record when you face opposition like that.
You know i have to agree 100% , Whitaker was a master boxer , he could stand inside and make u miss , he wasnt a runner as such.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBPernell Whitaker could actually punch, its just he often boxed on the backfoot. And you obviously can't get full power when your on the backfoot. Watch his KO of Disobelys Hurtado when he had to come forward, and tell me he can't punch.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyFolds
He also stunned JCC a few times, and watch his single shot knockdown of Wilfredo Rivera. There's many other examples but i don't feel like going into all of them.
Im not saying he was a devastating puncher, but his KO record is misleading. Because as i said he often just wanted to box on the backfoot and cruise to an easy UD victory.
You also have to take into account the opposition, i mean its hard to stop fighters like.
Wilfredo Rivera
Felix Trinidad
ODLH
Julio Cesar Chavez
Azumah Nelson
Greg Haugen
Rafael Pineda
Jorge Paez
Jose Luis Ramirez
Buddy McGirt
Julio Cesar Vasquez
And most of these fighters were at there peak when Pernell Whitaker fought them, i mean atleast 6 fighters on that list had great chins. Whilst the others were also pretty tough customers, its hard to have a high KO record when you face opposition like that.
As for his power he had a sharp dig on him , he also fought some top guys , for me SWEATPEA wins on points for sure.
There is no question as to who would win that fight, Roberto Duran. I watched him hunt down Vilomar Fernandez for fourteen rounds while Fernandez used every trick in boxing to keep Duran from hitting him and suddenly Duran came out of nowhere and splat, down went Fernandez. People in boxing also forget that Duran was a bomber but he had superior boxing skills as Dejesus found out in bout number two with Duran. Ken Buchanan was a speedy fighter and Duran mugged him in the late rounds skill and power. I saw that one too. Pernell is a great boxer but Duran had all the skills and a punch to go with it at lightweight, Duran was also a Welterweight , Jr. middleweight and middleweight champ, no question as to who would win.
Whitaker takes it for what should be a UD but gets robbed and loses. Whitaker has never lost a fight in his prime at 135-147. And no, the farce of a decision in the 1st Ramirez fight doesn't count nor the supposed "draw" with Chavez. Even a past his prime Whitaker still won comfortably against Oscar imo. In fact I challenge anyone here to find me a clip of Whitaker's fights in his prime that he legitimately lost. You can't.
Ramirez and Chavez are not Duran Duran's training regimen alone indicated his endurance and the fact that when he moved in on his opponents, he ws not easy to hit. At lightweight most experts agree that he was awesome and he had many quality opponents throughout his career. True Whitaker was robbed in those two fights and I agree but films tell the story. I thought Buchanan was really fast because he beat another lightweight great Ismael Laguna who was the Panamanian version of Whitaker at lightweight and then cme twenty one year old Duran who evolved with every fight at lightweight and fought Esteban Dejesus in three wars of boxing slugging and technics that revealed those boxing skills he used on Leonard too.
In a 15 round title bout I think Duran would eventually cut off the ring and pummel Sweet pea and take the KO. Good matchup here though and one I've never really considered before.
You're right Duran isn't a Chavez or Ramirez, but on the other hand Whitaker is no Dejesus, Buchanan, Vilomar Fernandez, or any of the other lw opponents he faced.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsebastianmiran
Duran decisively lost to Dejesus, while Whitaker did not decisively lose to Ramirez.
Whitaker's style, defensive abilities, and movement would pose serious challenges to Duran's aggressive style. Whitaker was a master at fighting off the backfoot and making his opponents miss. Therefore I take Whitaker over Duran in a mythical matchup.
Again who beat Whitaker decisively at LW or in his prime for that matter? The answer is no one did.
Coincidentally, I watched Duran/Buchanan again last night and during the fight I pictured Pernell instead of Buchanan, and what he would do in those situations.
Obviously Pernell would end up taking a lot more punches than he usually does, but I still see him out-slicking Duran.
I don't think Duran had a chance in hell of KO'ing Pernell. Duran hit like a horse but I don't feel he had the one-punch power to put Pernell down for good, and I also don't think he'd be able to land his regular accumulation on punches on Pernell to wear him down and stop him.
I just think people underrate Pernell. He wasn't feather fisted like people say he was. He was no Tommy Hearns obviously, but he wasn't a Willie Pep either.
I bet if JCC/Sweet Pea never happened, a minority of people here would pick Pernell to win, much less embarrass him like he did.
Ismael Laguna was shot when he lost to Ken Buchanan, that was right at the end of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsebastianmiran
Duran, for CERTAIN, had one punch KO power. He only became a volume puncher when he was up in MW, b/c that power did not carry but so well..Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Duran would knock people's shoes off at LW!
You're probably right about SweetPea and JCC, but that fight was a career defining performance for SweetPea.. Without that fight he would be nothing all that special. To exist as a boxer in the 90s and be anywhere close to 140.. your ass is going to have to face JCC. And, as the (JCC's)record shows, most of these guys met their maker after getting in the ring with him.
I don't think many would argue Duran had tougher opposition, and a slightly longer career than SweetPea. It's a really hard fight to call for sure. And I would bet the scoring would be hell!
Great points by everyone...
What about his performances vs.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyFoldsDuran, for CERTAIN, had one punch KO power. He only became a volume puncher when he was up in MW, b/c that power did not carry but so well..Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Duran would knock people's shoes off at LW!
You're probably right about SweetPea and JCC, but that fight was a career defining performance for SweetPea.. Without that fight he would be nothing all that special. To exist as a boxer in the 90s and be anywhere close to 140.. your ass is going to have to face JCC. And, as the (JCC's)record shows, most of these guys met their maker after getting in the ring with him.
I don't think many would argue Duran had tougher opposition, and a slightly longer career than SweetPea. It's a really hard fight to call for sure. And I would bet the scoring would be hell!
Great points by everyone...
ODLH
Azumah Nelson
Jose Luis Ramirez
Buddy McGirt
ETC.
Thats silly thing to say in all honesty, because i could easily bring up Roberto Duran being embarrased by fighters like Kirkland Laing, Wilfred Benitez, Thomas Hearns, Robbie Simms.
No one's disputing Roberto Duran was a great Lightweight, but saying Pernell Whitaker wouldn't be that special without the JCC win is nonsense. He was rated P4P number 2 before he even fought JCC.
And he had plenty of shut out victories against very good fighters.
i think whitaker was a great, great defensive fighter but against duran, he would have been outgunned especially in a 15 rounder. and i do believe whitaker would have run all night long after he felt duran's power at lightweight, which would of swayed the judges in duran's favor because of his willingness to take the fight to whitaker.
you can make the argument that whitaker beats duran at welterweight but not at lightweight. this was duran's most effective weight and he would of dominated the "cutesy" whitaker and won by a fairly wide UD.
I wouldn't sell Esteban De Jesus short, in any other era he would be regarded as a great Lightweight champion of the world. De Jesus would have given Whitaker a hard fight too.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogYou're right Duran isn't a Chavez or Ramirez, but on the other hand Whitaker is no Dejesus, Buchanan, Vilomar Fernandez, or any of the other lw opponents he faced.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsebastianmiran
Duran decisively lost to Dejesus, while Whitaker did not decisively lose to Ramirez.
Whitaker's style, defensive abilities, and movement would pose serious challenges to Duran's aggressive style. Whitaker was a master at fighting off the backfoot and making his opponents miss. Therefore I take Whitaker over Duran in a mythical matchup.
Again who beat Whitaker decisively at LW or in his prime for that matter? The answer is no one did.
To clearify I never suggest Duran didn't have one punch KO power. I've seen enough of his fights to know Manos de Piedra (sp?) isn't a cute nickname he gave himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyFolds
I'm just saying I don't think he has enough one punch KO power to spark Pernell. Thats no knock on Duran because like others pointed out Pernell was made of iron. Its like me saying Joe Frazier didn't have the one-punch KO power to spark Ali. Its no knock on Joe, just sayign Ali was a tough nut to crack.
I don't think there was a LW in history who could "dominate" Sweet Pea.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
I guess I'm sounding like a Pernell nuthugger, but I just honestly think it doesn't get much better than Sweet Pea
This is a close one.
If Sweat Pea vs JCC is the model, then Pernel has the edge, since he effectively defanged Chavez. But Duran was not as methodological, ie predicatable, as JCC, was better defensively, and a tad more bloodthirsty. He was also harder to outbox.
To address Duran-Leonard II and the CV that Duran quit b/c he was being out-boxed and humiliated. If you watch the fight, Leonard wasn't really outboxing him. He was certainly using a lot of movement but Duran cunningly refused to move forward, unlike Hagler and in great contrast to Chavez (with Whitaker).
So the early rounds were close, with Duran effectively neutralizing SRLs strategy by forcing SRL to come to him. However, once he did, SRL was able to beat Duran to the punch on the inside. Then he would scooter away b/f Duran could get in a big shot.
This is really what frustrated Duran. In one round and I thnk in the beggining of another, SRL began to showboat, to use the bolo punch, stick out his neck, etc. Everyone remembers that and thinks thats why Duran quit. But if you watch the tape, SRL wasn't showboating at the time of the no mas. Rather he began to out-punch Duran and send him backwards. In essence his movement enabled his power.
so (oddly) this means I give an edge to Duran, becase sweet pea doesn't thave SRL power and if you go backwards on duran so he can't catch you, he'll just smartly stand in the midde of the ring. This will force Sweet Pea to fight more stationary, which he's very good at (like PBF was agaisnt mosely) but not good enough to beat a peak Duran, imo.
Close though.
beanflicker,
maybe i did exaggerate a bit about duran "dominating" whitaker. you're right, nobody could have done that because he was too good a defensive fighter.
Hey to each his own, its all opinion anyway and we'll never know for sure.
I just can't picture anybody in the history of LW dominating sweet pea. he was such a hard guy to fight, prime pea wins at least 4 or 5 rounds against anyone IMO.
Thanks for the input. This thread has given me a lot of artillery to argue each side. BTW you all seem to be pretty educated fight fans and I will definitely be spending more time on this forum.
Bump, first thread I ever started on here
Would have been a great fight but when in his absolute prime HANDS OF STONE was nearly unbeatable at lightweight, UD Duran.
If I could just time transport two fighters from all history on their best night to matchup? it might just be the 1977 Roberto Duran and the 1990 Sweet Pea.
The Pete case says the following. Duran often struggled with gifted boxers, Leonard, the Viruets, Benitez and so Sweet Pea would dance him all night long. The Duran answer says, well wait a minute, he beat Leonard and the Viruets as well as other exceptional boxers like Esteban and Vilomar Fernandez and Lou Bizzarro.
The Duran case says Pete never saw a skilled, offensive, relentless engine at his very best weight like Duran and when he did, Tito Trinidad, he couldn't handle it. The Pete response is well Chavez was no joke even at 147, neither was Azumah even at 135 and Pete dominated both of those guys.
At the end of the day I think Pete would have moments where he made Duran look bad, even silly. But I don't think he really has an answer that lets him win a majority of rounds against Duran's aggression.
Duran in an EXTREMELY close decision.
Duran on points but very close fight. If Duran was losing he would punch him in the balls. He would not be denied.
Anyone that thinks Duran would knock out Whitaker is fooling themselves.
I have see Duran fight many times and I saw him train as well. Some people forget his head movement was superb to say the least and just for fun he used to use his head to work out on the speed bag. He used to jump rope in a squat position in his prime year workouts. He was a closet boxer that could not only circle around you but adopt and change gears when he got the distance he wanted. His defense when needed was prime stuff. I remember when he went after the elusive Vilomar Fernandez and the challenger used every trick in the book and he repeted himself and Duran knocked him out in the fourteenth round. He always dictated the ace and when he chose not to there was a KO.
I am a Duran fan and I wish to say that before anyone gives Sweet Pea the nod remember Duran fought everyone that accepted his challenge and he took risks. Sweet Pea was a great defensive fighter and Duran was no Hurtago. His endurance was unquestionable but against Duran who was always a different breed of cat and a natural predator, his work would most definitely be cut out for him. I thought he won when he fought De Lahoya but he lacked enthusiasm and the judges picked up on that. Chavez lost that night IMO when he fought Whitaker but that was not Duran across the ring.
Bump to stir up trouble to go along with the Floyd vs Leonard/Duran thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherYou're a new poster on this board, so you will soon see that majority of the posters on here see Duran as some sort of lightweight God...I on the other hand is considered a heretic on the guy...I think Sweet pea, and floyd would both beat him at LW and Mosley would absolutely crush him...Quote:
Originally Posted by chinchekked
If you don't see Duran as "some sort of lightweight God," then you didn't see him fight at 135. He's one of the few people you can talk about in the same discussion with Sugar Ray Robinson about all-time P4P and pass the straight face test.