I'd love to hear you all chime in on this before I rehash the hour long debate my dad and I had over this one. Prime for prime, of course.
**Hopefully this one hasn't been done before?**
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I'd love to hear you all chime in on this before I rehash the hour long debate my dad and I had over this one. Prime for prime, of course.
**Hopefully this one hasn't been done before?**
Prime for Prime Ali's style is a nightmare for Joe Louis. Especially given the way Joe dropped his left and was caught and dropped because of it. Ali in his prime I think would have beaten up Joe Louis. Not to take away from Louis's greatness, but prime for prime, style for style, Ali was a nightmare for Joe Louis or any heavyweight back then for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Balboa
Joe Frazier vs Joe Louis would have been a better fight.
I think louis picks frasier apart. In spectacular fashion. Smokin Joe thumps with the best but I think he's dissected and stopped in this one. Louis had seriously underrated power in BOTH hands.
I'll wait on ali/louis til more join in.
Luis would be punched to a standstill by Clay , he was to flat footed and Clay proved his chin against Foreman etc.
Its a total nightmare fight for Louis.
Clay TKO 13
Bad style match up for Louis but it's still hard to pick....Ali wanted to stay outside and he was just too quick on his feet, but at the same time Joe Louis would have a puncher's chance...better than Frazier or Foreman because he had big power in both hands AND he could deliver power punches in a very quick and accurate manner. Joe was rarely long or short on a punch, he judged distance well and IMO he's one of the most underrated power punchers in the history of the sport...not saying he doesn't get any credit, but he is kind of glossed over.
Louis-Tyson or Louis-Holyfield are solid hypothetical matchups too
Gotta disagree there about his power Lyle, if anything I think it gets a bit overrated considering that Ring had his as the best p4p puncher in history :rolleyes:
No doubt he could punch, but if Ali took Shavers, Frazier & Foreman's shots, I think he'd hold up Louis. I don't see him stopping a prime Brown Bomber though, probably a competitive but clear decision for Ali.
I have to echo the sentiments of the fellas above. Ali's excellent ring movement might just be a tad bit too savvy for the brown bomber to avoid a loss from. Ali's speed and length will spell a whole lot of trouble for Joe, this, coupled with Joe's heavy reliance on power than strategy, can very well unfold a one-sided outcome in favor of the boxer. The butterfly that stings like a bee, will frustrate the brawler no end for 15 rounds.
A prime Ali (circa mid 60's) is just to quick and too great of a boxer. Ali's chin was also insane so even if Joe did get to Ali I don't see him stopping him. Ali finishes the job that the super over rated Billy Conn was doing to Louis for 10+ rounds but Ali finishes the job. W15
The kind of fighter I think has the best chance to beat Ali is guys with great long jabs (ala Larry Holmes or Lennox Lewis). Not saying those 2 would beat Ali just that those style would be harder on him. Ken Norton was life and death with and Ali that was just past his prime. Ken was very awkward and threw lots of punches.
Most people won't agree with me but I still think the version of Tyson before his life went insane (pre Spinks fight) would have given Ali a very hard fight. Mike was so fast and hit so hard I really think he might have beaten him. I'm sure Ali would frustrateTyson eventually but it's not a given he wins. If they fight 5 times I say Ali goes 3-1-1 in those fights.
I wouldn't say Muhammad Ali was past his prime in the early 70's, i mean he did have some struggles in the 60's aswell, against Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, Karl Mildenberger.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
He was coming off good performances against Bob Foster, Floyd Patterson, Jerry Quarry, before he fought Ken Norton. And he did not show any signs of being past his prime in any of those fights, and after the two tough fights vs Ken Norton. He handily beat Joe Frazier in there 2nd fight.
Style wise Ali would outbox Louis, but Louis may have fared better against some opponets Ali had a lot of trouble with like Fraiser and Norton.
We are talking about the #1 and #2 HWTS in history depending on the list...It is ahard call...The power and the posing pressure of Lewis or the movement and quickness of Ali.....I can not say who thinks when Ali's prime was some say beforew the exile some say after the Foreman fight is when it ended that being why he had to rely on rope a dope tactics....
A yery young Ali/Clay was easily caught and down often....Just there was not one who could finish like Joe that he faced...I would have to say If Joe hurt him good chance he finishes him....The Ali of later up until and just after Foreman would be too much for Louis....He could take the power, he still had enough speed to ghive Joe problems and take advantage of Joes lax defense and he would rattle Joe mentaly...Plus Joe could not fight backing up and if Ali had him going back at all it would be a TKO ending....Ali hit harder then many realize because he is more known for speed and over all boxing skill...he stopped some big names some ATG fighters in their prime.....Certainly some of the top 10 hwts of all time...EG Foreman, Liston, Patterson, Frazier....Joe had a chin no better then those mentioned....
This is a pick em fight for me...Whoever gets their gameplan in early will win.,...An Ali closer to the start of his prime loses to Louis...Ali closer to the end of his prime wins...They were 2 different fighters...Both were better then anyone Louis faced in his prime...
Early in Ali's career he was put down, but once he became champion and before the exile, that would be the best Ali we saw, and that fighter would beat Louis. We may never have seen the best of Ali, which is a scary/sad thought.
Agreed. The best version of Ali was 64-67, before the exile. The green and still physically maturing Ali got put down quite a bit, but not the prime one. And even the 70s version where he was past his prime physically still could take a punch. As someone mentioned, if Ali could take the punching power of Foreman, Shavers, Liston, Norton and those dangerous punchers, I have no doubt he could take Louis power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ali takes it for a mid round tko. Too much speed of hand and foot combined with elusiveness.
I gotta agree that this is a nightmare fight for Joe Louis. I don't see how he wins this against a prime Ali. Ali would outbox him with his superior speed, but unlike Conn, Ali will be able to hurt Louis. I see Ali stopped Louis in the later rounds.
I would be more interested in seeing Louis vs Foreman, Frazier, or Marciano (a PRIME Louis, not the old shell of Louis that fought the Rock)
One of the great boxing debates is what would Ali have accomplished if he never went to jail. He lost three prime years of his career. Maybe he fight Frazier in 68 or 69 and dominates him and Joe never gets respect as being a top 10 Heavyweight. What happen to Ali if he easily beats Frazier and Foreman in the early 70's? I just can't imagine Ali loses to anybody 67-70 at all unless something really unexpected happens. Maybe Ali goes undefeated and beats Joe's all time title defense record against the best heavy weight era in history. If so this wouldn't even be a discussion, Ali is undisputed best heavy of all time.
I think you're confusing Ali with Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
I think people forget that Joe Louis also lost time in his career due to World War IIQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI think you're confusing Ali with Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
Ali was exiled and had no license to fight he did not actually spend time in jailQuote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
Ali was convicted and sentenced to 5 years in jail but never went while his case was being appealed. I should have said his “exile” from boxing to be more accurate. My bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI think you're confusing Ali with Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
I'd have to go Ali, Louis' footwork was terrible, He could punch like a mule but as we've seen Ali had a great chin & found ways to beat you
This has to be the most debated hypothetical match in history and for good reason. Both were great, but one is the Greatest HW of all time and would be champion in any era and that is Muhammad Ali. Taking nothing from Louis and I respect that he was a great puncher but so were Foreman, Frazier and Shavers but Ali could take all their shots.
Another thing that Ali had was a great boxing brain, he fought the fight he needed to, to defeat each opponent. I mean No one and I mean no one gave him a cat in hells chance vs Foreman but he told us all how he'd beat him and then followed his plan to perfection, yes he took his bumps in doing so (he was pissing blood for 2 weeks after the fight) but he came out on top.
He was also around in a better era for HW's than Louis so he got to prove himself against better opposition which is no fault of Louis' but it has to go against him when you you look at how each fared against genuine quality opposition.