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I was watching a documentary called Unforgivable Blackness. That told the story of Jack Johnson. It brought up the prospect of Johnson challenging Jack Dempsey to a match after he was released from prison but Dempsey wouldn't fight him or any other black fighter. So I wonder your opinions, had Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey fought, who would have won? Would Johnson have been the first to regain the title or would Dempsey have beaten him?
When Dempsey at 24 years old won the HW title, Johnson was already 41 years old. So a 40+ year old Johnson vs a 20 something year old in his prime Dempsey . Geez that is a tough one right there.
You have the option of answering who would win in their primes which is why the option is there in the poll.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
I don't actually rate Dempsey that highly. Except for when his gloves were loaded.
I really don't know, i don't really watch footage that old. Because there not full fights, i like watching full fights and not highlights.
Jack Johnson was supposedly a very smart fighter, but im not sure how his style would of worked vs an aggressive fighter like Jack Dempsey.
I don't believe Jack Johnson moved very well like Gene Tunney ? which is the way to beat Jack Dempsey, so i'd say Jack Dempsey by KO.
I have no earthy idea really. Thinking Johnson. Seemed more versatile, relaxed and he may have faced better comp then Dempsey because he couldn't get fame early, where as Dempsey had pickers choice and avoided some worthy talents. If that makes any sence ???
Johnson at his peak would have handled Dempsey although I am sure that Dempsey did not fight 40 rounds as a champion which Johnson did. Over the shorter distance Johnson would adjust and still win.
Here's the tale of the tape...
Jack Johnson
Height: 6'1 1/2
Weight: circa 205
Reach: 74"
Jack Dempsey
Height: 6'1
Weight: circa 190
Reach: 77"
I think that Jack Johnson in his prime had the style to deal with Dempsey but at the point in time you're talking about I think this unfolds like Tyson-Holmes.
A young, prime Dempsey (that destroyed Willard) was a mover and swarmer, throwing punches from a lot of angles. Johnson in his prime catches most of them, but a crashing left hook from Dempsey would, I think, eventually get through. Then, how does a prime Johnson handle it? I don't think Johnson took a very good punch, that's why he developed such a slick defense. If middleweight Ketchel almost puts Johnson's lights out, does Johnson get up from a Dempsey punch? If so, does he survive the swarming Dempsey? I don't think so. Prime Dempsey beats prime Johnson 7 out of 10.
Lets be honest. Dempsey would have ducked Johnson just as he essentially ducked all the black fighters in his prime.
*I tend to think that Johnson would've been a handfull for any fighter in any era... prime against prime, u really have to be a fool to go against Johnson. We will never know just how strong he was... rumor was he held back so that he could get fights, that's why he fought the same guy over and over again many times ... many say that he could've killed fighters in the ring.. that and the fact that he was black... and dating white woman.. and smart. lol, the guy was the first"original G"... there's no way of knowing just how talented he was. I'd pick Johnson over alot of heavyweights...
Who knows, Johnson was as tough as they come in his prime and so was Dempsey who destroyed Willard. Granted Johnson was way past his prime when Willard beat him, but it does make you think that the Mananas Mauler would have had a punchers chance. This is one of those fights that boxing fans have already debated for the last 90 plus years.
Good thread.
Willard was a tree trunk with a tad of new growth flailing in the wind. Dempsey ducked Langford and just about anybody else with a different shade. Greb was the only one over that time frame the crossed the colour barrier. Btw Dempsey ducked him also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
I'm not so sure Dempsey ducked anyone, perhaps it was Tex Richard and Jack Kearns who thought that these might be a high risk, low financial reward fights when Dempsey was champion. I'd like to believe that Jack would fight anyone they put in front of him, whether or not he would have won is a different story. Dempsey says as much in his many bios, but who really knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitWillard was a tree trunk with a tad of new growth flailing in the wind. Dempsey ducked Langford and just about anybody else with a different shade. Greb was the only one over that time frame the crossed the colour barrier. Btw Dempsey ducked him also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
Johnson wins, I've never rated Dempsey very highly.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendettos
Also the comment about johnson holding back in the majority of fights is true. He could have been killed anytime as he was so hated in and out of the ring.
It would have been interesting to see how Jack Johnson adjusted to the 12-15 rounds and standing in the corner, which Dempsey forgot to do, I am sure it would have actually been easier for him.
Yup. He blew the Tunney fight and he was the one that asked for the new neutral corner rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
LOL dumb move you would have thought he would have remembered!Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitYup. He blew the Tunney fight and he was the one that asked for the new neutral corner rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
What about a peak Dempsey v Tunney?
I think Tunney can defeat any fighter in the early eras if it was 15 rounder he would of stopped Dempsey. Tunney was way ahead of his time think beats Johnson as well was a hell of a mover for his time.
And yet he was nearly knocked out by an old Dempsey? What would have a prime version done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Dempsey was arguably still at his peak I think @Master. He was actually favoured to win both fights at least by the betting stubs. I think the 20 foot ring did him in. Had that ring been a 16 footer history may have been written differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterLOL dumb move you would have thought he would have remembered!Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitYup. He blew the Tunney fight and he was the one that asked for the new neutral corner rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
What about a peak Dempsey v Tunney?
I do not think he was at his peak, he became married to a Hollywood actress, cared about his looks and became civilised. When he fought Tunney he was fighting once a year and was not the hungry fighter that destroyed Willard and Firpo.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitDempsey was arguably still at his peak I think @Master. He was actually favoured to win both fights at least by the betting stubs. I think the 20 foot ring did him in. Had that ring been a 16 footer history may have been written differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterLOL dumb move you would have thought he would have remembered!Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitYup. He blew the Tunney fight and he was the one that asked for the new neutral corner rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
What about a peak Dempsey v Tunney?
Perhaps not but Willard and Firpo were no Gene Tunney.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterI do not think he was at his peak, he became married to a Hollywood actress, cared about his looks and became civilised. When he fought Tunney he was fighting once a year and was not the hungry fighter that destroyed Willard and Firpo.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitDempsey was arguably still at his peak I think @Master. He was actually favoured to win both fights at least by the betting stubs. I think the 20 foot ring did him in. Had that ring been a 16 footer history may have been written differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterLOL dumb move you would have thought he would have remembered!Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitYup. He blew the Tunney fight and he was the one that asked for the new neutral corner rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
What about a peak Dempsey v Tunney?
They were not that is true but if a younger Dempsey could get his hands on Tunney I am sure he would have finished him off.
Master you forget Tunney almost finished Dempsey if it was more then 10 rounds he be out cold. Also forget that Tunney only fought once before the rematch with Dempsey was ending his career as well. I believe Tunney with his boxing skills and movement would of beat any fighter from 1910's to 1940s. He was way above his time form what i have seen of him his boxing skills were way ahead of the curve. I mean i didn't see anyone that could box and move like him from that early of a time period to be honest with you.
Tunney was good but Joe Louis would have beaten him. Gene may have caused some problems but Joe would have found him in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Again I think it had to do with ring size and style. Still had Jack not stood over Tunney and went to the neutral corner immediately he would have that ko win and in that bigger ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ps- Its 3am here and I got a terrible case of insomnia. I may have to put on a Ruiz fight.
Watching and thinking of Michael Moorer does it for me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitAgain I think it had to do with ring size and style. Still had Jack not stood over Tunney and went to the neutral corner immediately he would have that ko win and in that bigger ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ps- Its 3am here and I got a terrible case of insomnia. I may have to put on a Ruiz fight.
Johnson would have been motivated and prepared for Dempsey. But that would not have been enough. Even during his prime, which was actually before he won the title, Johnson would have his hands full against an aggressive prime Dempsey. Styles make fights and, while Johnson could certainly outbox Dempsey, he would always have trouble with Dempsey's aggressive style.
.
A fight at this time would have been much like Tyson v Holmes. The wiser Johnson would use his skill to ward Dempsey off early. But Johnson would never be able to keep it up. Dempsey would break through at some point in time and put an end to the matter.
.
Dempsey by KO in 4.
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If both met during their respective primes, in 3 separate scenarios, I see Johnson taking the series 2/3, winning two on points and Dempsey one by KO.
Dempsey was a monster. Lived as a hobo, would fight guys for pennies in tough mining towns, went for the kill and liked hurting people. A real force of nature.
But, Johnson was a fighter 100 years ahead of his time. Big guy, always conditioned and learnt how to box properly from a very early age. Fought all the time, massive ego and ballsy too.
i think Johnson weathers an early storm and then dominates to stop Dempsey later on.
You still do a fat guy impression of that pedo Jackson?Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Joe Louis and Mummamad Ali beat them both in the same night but Johnson wins this one.
Made a comment that made no sense, my badQuote:
Originally Posted by Ubertroy
Didn’t realize you were talking about old Holmes like Mike beat and Old Johnson as he would be vs Dempsey
Well if Tunney had a relatively easy time with Dempsey then you'd have to figure prime for prime a larger true heavyweight with slick boxing prowess would do Dempsey in regardless of how prepared Dempsey was.
Both fighters are tough and strong and had great careers but styles make fights and I don't think Dempsey could catch Johnson, I don't think Johnson would allow for it. Now in Dempsey's pomp and when Johnson was older, I stand by my assertion that Dempsey does the older slower more worn down Johnson in by KO.
Earlier in the thread I listed the tale of the tape here's that info again:
Jack Johnson
Height: 6'1 1/2
Weight: circa 205
Reach: 74"
Jack Dempsey
Height: 6'1
Weight: circa 190
Reach: 77"
Jack Johnson
Height: 6'1 1/2
Weight: circa 205
Reach: 74"
That is incredible statistics for a heavyweight over 100 years ago.
As X said truly ahead of his time.
These equivalent dimension now would be an athletic and skillful 7ft and 300lb champion now.
Hence the nickname 'The Galveston Giant'Quote:
Originally Posted by Master