America is an illegal and racist country much like Israel

I thought I would start this thread after posting a bit on my RDR thread. Basically I believe America to be an illegal state and Israel to be a state that is being newly created with the same racist motivations. Both are being founded on racist and illegitimate lines. Here are my main lines from the previosuly mentioned thread...

They wipe out those who already occupy the land and then show a complete lack of regard for the land they are taking over and then a complete lack of regard for the land they occupy the world over. It makes Americans look like the most uncivilised of people and native American Indians who lack all the bullshit science, but know full well how the earth operates, look like the most sophisticated of people. And that is quite accurate.

It's a shame the ugly was allowed to win.

And then I said this...

The game also made me upset because it brought home exactly how Israel is gradually taking over the occupied territories. You have an ethnic population who really own the land, and yet they don't because of illegal occupiers, and over time you will exclude the ethnic population, either into the sea or else anywhere else entirely.

Only America (a country responsible for genocide worse than the Nazi's) could be so close in kinship towards such a country. And then when you begin to educate yourself on notions such as 'manifest destiny', well, then it all begins to make complete sense.

It is an alignment of the corrupt academic elite, mass media and politicians who perpetuate all that is wrong in the world just for their short term gains.

Israel is making it's share of money from terror and is quite happy with the Palestine situation. And the world really does just invest in that and watch on while the Palestinians get crushed.

Now some of that is quite strong, but that is why I thought it deserved a proper thread of its own.

I was talking about a game, but my arguments relate quite well to a debate on state and abuse of power.

So discuss....

What we did to the native Americans was shit but how come you dwell so much on America all the time? What about the British empire destroying whole cultures and shooting people off of the front of cannons in India? There is soooo much bad history and bad stuff going on now but you act as if America and Israel are the worst of the world's evils. I don't believe this even if we share a lot of the blame. Why not spend some time railing against radical terrorists from time to time.

Also when you say we're a racist country, what do you mean by that? Are you talking about our history or who we are now?

I dwell on America becuase you are creating most of the worlds misery. Right now America and Israel are responsibly for much of the world's misery. If I was around 80 years ago my motives would obviously have been different. The British would have been my targets. In fact even now they are.

You talk of 'radical terrorists'..spoken like a truly uninformed American...what radical terrorists, Amat? The ones created by years of systematic abuse? Both economic and military? How many did you kill in Iraq and for what purpose exactly? Opening a Burger King in the Green Zone? Nice! Then there is Afghanistan and what about the economic invasions in countries such as Argentina, Uruguay, Poland, China, Russia and so on.

A racist country created on unhinged christian foundations. An idea that you are superior to the dark skinned people. That was how America was founded and this is how Israel is going. Take some land and take some more, because "we are able to do so". That is racist. Nobody wants to help the dark skinned people even though it is their own land.

That is a country built on racism and that is how Israel is being built today.

Seriously? All this started from a discussion about a video game? Miles...either grow up or just fuck off

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Seriously? All this started from a discussion about a video game? Miles...either grow up or just fuck off

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I am quite grown up, Lyle. Your response shows you for what you are.

How about raising some thoughts to prove me otherwise? But no you just have to tell me to fuck off.

Lyle, you lose the argument and look like a dick...well done...:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Seriously? All this started from a discussion about a video game? Miles...either grow up or just fuck off

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I am quite grown up, Lyle. Your response shows you for what you are.

How about raising some thoughts to prove me otherwise? But no you just have to tell me to fuck off.

Lyle, you lose the argument and look like a dick...well done...:rolleyes:

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Miles, this ranting and raving you did started out from you playing a video game. Apparently you're such a bleeding heart you want digital reparations for the digital indians...oh I'm sorry I meant "Native Digital Peoples of the video game Red Dead Redemption"......and I'm the childish one?!?!

Miles get a fucking grip.

And I see Lyle trying to respond, but he isn't worth it. My points are very potent and I will argue them until the cows go home. Lyle is a cowboy, he knows what his country is.

Do you have to check out a bunch of books on how Britain fucked large portions of the world in the ass for centuries or is there just one called Britain fucked us in the ass and took everything we had?

fwiw it is a criminally under discussed issue in America (don't want to sound like I'm blaming Black people for this but the civil rights issue was such a big deal that I think its overshadowed the Native American situation which is unfortunate) but Miles' hypocrisy seems to know no bounds.

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Originally Posted by miles

And I see Lyle trying to respond, but he isn't worth it. My points are very potent and I will argue them until the cows go home. Lyle is a cowboy, he knows what his country is.

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Your inane rantings are pathetic and weak. You're using current morals and values and then applying them to the founding of the United States. Their reality was nothing like ours. And for trying to force history into some sort of moral "good vs evil" linear way of thinking is childish and just plain fucking stupid.

Oh this should go well. Brother Miles you need a big froathing glass of get-the-fuck over yourself. With respect... of course ;D

I Hogtied a Nun, dragged her to a railway track and let it squish her...

I got an achievement for it too! Got charged with kidknapping but nobody was bothered enough to even round up a posse to come after me!

I tortured and killed a nun and didn't even get a slapped wrist.

Evil, evil country... women are treated like 2nd class citizens. makes me sick!

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

I Hogtied a Nun, dragged her to a railway track and let it squish her...

I got an achievement for it too! Got charged with kidknapping but nobody was bothered enough to even round up a posse to come after me!

I tortured and killed a nun and didn't even get a slapped wrist.

Evil, evil country... women are treated like 2nd class citizens. makes me sick!

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"Citizens", Hell mate at that time those women couldn't even vote!...I don't even know how you can stomach playing those vile, capitalist, empirialist video games! Shame on you! Shame on all of you!...I'm going to go play Ecco The Dolphin, because that's what Al Gore would want me to do, dolphins are smart and we should respect them.


(hopefully miles can pick up on the sarcasm of my post....I laid it on kind of thick and since he had such a hard time distinguishing between video games and reality I figured he may have trouble with sincerity and sarcasm too)

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

fwiw it is a criminally under discussed issue in America (don't want to sound like I'm blaming Black people for this but the civil rights issue was such a big deal that I think its overshadowed the Native American situation which is unfortunate) but Miles' hypocrisy seems to know no bounds.

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Agreed 100%.

It's the same thing here. I admittedly only really know about the plight of Canadian First Nations people (our 'Native Canadians'), how is contemporary life for Native Americans?

Here in the north the destruction of indigenous ways of life was stated public policy (under the guise of 'assimilation') for decades and we continue to exert colonial rule over them and force them to live in 3rd world conditions...

I've heard experts on the subject make compelling arguments that Canada is at least half a century behind the States in terms of how we treat our indigenous people.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

fwiw it is a criminally under discussed issue in America (don't want to sound like I'm blaming Black people for this but the civil rights issue was such a big deal that I think its overshadowed the Native American situation which is unfortunate) but Miles' hypocrisy seems to know no bounds.

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Agreed 100%.

It's the same thing here. I admittedly only really know about the plight of Canadian First Nations people (our 'Native Canadians'), how is contemporary life for Native Americans?

Here in the north the destruction of indigenous ways of life was stated public policy (under the guise of 'assimilation') for decades and we continue to exert colonial rule over them and force them to live in 3rd world conditions...

I've heard experts on the subject make compelling arguments that Canada is at least half a century behind the States in terms of how we treat our indigenous people.

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Any time there is any story where the word "native" comes up in our local online paper, the ugly face of our city's racist jumps into overdrive. I will link you to it some day CFH, to read our general populations thoughts on it. They don't even try to hide it in wit or sarcasm. I think it actually is a better barometer being online then face to face, to see what is truly in people's hearts.

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Originally Posted by Youngblood

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

fwiw it is a criminally under discussed issue in America (don't want to sound like I'm blaming Black people for this but the civil rights issue was such a big deal that I think its overshadowed the Native American situation which is unfortunate) but Miles' hypocrisy seems to know no bounds.

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Agreed 100%.

It's the same thing here. I admittedly only really know about the plight of Canadian First Nations people (our 'Native Canadians'), how is contemporary life for Native Americans?

Here in the north the destruction of indigenous ways of life was stated public policy (under the guise of 'assimilation') for decades and we continue to exert colonial rule over them and force them to live in 3rd world conditions...

I've heard experts on the subject make compelling arguments that Canada is at least half a century behind the States in terms of how we treat our indigenous people.

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Any time there is any story where the word "native" comes up in our local online paper, the ugly face of our city's racist jumps into overdrive. I will link you to it some day CFH, to read our general populations thoughts on it. They don't even try to hide it in wit or sarcasm. I think it actually is a better barometer being online then face to face, to see what is truly in people's hearts.

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I'm sure it's exactly the same as here.

You know I think you are a good guy Miles and yes you are in some ways right about America and in some ways I think you are being really myopic about this topic. Although America has it's faults, we still cannot compare to the various European nation states that has wreaked havoc in this world the last 400-500 years. Slavery, colonization, genocide, the Americans are nothing compared to you guys.

We sure as hell didn't start 2 catastrophic wars in the 20th century (WWI and II), we sure as hell didn't rape the continent of Africa, the East, Southeast, and South Asian countries through colonization.

Hell even the Vietnam war where Americans got involved was started by you guys because you guys didn't want to decolonize Indochina (the 3 nation states of Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos) because your economies was wrecked by something you guys started called the 2nd World War and wanted to rebuild your economies again by exploiting that land and its people for cheap labor and called for American involvement why you were losing badly against the Viet Minh forces. Also, you want to know why Mexico and the various Latin American countries have a very heavily influenced Spanish culture and language? Should I talk about the Opium Wars you guys had with China in the 19th century? Or how the various European countries ganged up on China exploiting that land and its people for resources?

We have our faults, but Americans compared to Europeans, we look like saints. I make no apologies for some of the things America has done, but we sure as hell hasn't fucked up this world severely like how Europeans have done.

I agree with Miles. I think America should be closed.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

You know I think you are a good guy Miles and yes you are in some ways right about America and in some ways I think you are being really myopic about this topic. Although America has it's faults, we still cannot compare to the various European nation states that has wreaked havoc in this world the last 400-500 years. Slavery, colonization, genocide, the Americans are nothing compared to you guys.

We sure as hell didn't start 2 catastrophic wars in the 20th century (WWI and II), we sure as hell didn't rape the continent of Africa, the East, Southeast, and South Asian countries through colonization.

Hell even the Vietnam war where Americans got involved was started by you guys because you guys didn't want to decolonize Indochina (the 3 nation states of Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos) because your economies was wrecked by something you guys started called the 2nd World War and wanted to rebuild your economies again by exploiting that land and its people for cheap labor and called for American involvement why you were losing badly against the Viet Minh forces. Also, you want to know why Mexico and the various Latin American countries have a very heavily influenced Spanish culture and language? Should I talk about the Opium Wars you guys had with China in the 19th century? Or how the various European countries ganged up on China exploiting that land and its people for resources?

We have our faults, but Americans compared to Europeans, we look like saints. I make no apologies for some of the things America has done, but we sure as hell hasn't fucked up this world severely like how Europeans have done.

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Are you saying that Britain started WW2 or are you generalisation all Europian countrys and treating them as a single entity?

Don't get me wrong, both are retarded... I'm just bored and curious, so I thought that I'd ask which.

Also, this thread is about Red Dead Redemption... if you want to talk about medal of honor or the original call of duty games then go and make your own thread.

But on a more serious note - America/Europe/Isreal... whoever... stop being so fucking Jingoistic and look at the bigger picture... no group of humans is inherantly different, given a situation, enough time and history they will have all fucked up at some point... unfortunatly we all share something called human nature.

Dog Eat Dog!

This is just Darwinism and a grander scale

Conrad wins on Av power alone. Dear God WHO is that woman ?!?!

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Originally Posted by miles

I dwell on America becuase you are creating most of the worlds misery. Right now America and Israel are responsibly for much of the world's misery. If I was around 80 years ago my motives would obviously have been different. The British would have been my targets. In fact even now they are.

You talk of 'radical terrorists'..spoken like a truly uninformed American...what radical terrorists, Amat? The ones created by years of systematic abuse? Both economic and military? How many did you kill in Iraq and for what purpose exactly? Opening a Burger King in the Green Zone? Nice! Then there is Afghanistan and what about the economic invasions in countries such as Argentina, Uruguay, Poland, China, Russia and so on.
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:vd:

It's like you have your posts picked out, you know what you want to say regardless of what the responses you get are. Uninformed American? How come you feel the need to discredit every single person you argue with? Don't you realize how petty and childish this makes you look? It's fucken ridiculous.

I know full well that America has blame for the hostilities that the middle east holds toward us. However, they should still be held accountable for blowing up open markets and destroying civilians just like we should. What would you call these people who strap explosives to themselves if they aren't radical terrorists? Do you have a better word for them?

How about some accountability on these people's behalves. What do you suppose we call the organizations I refer to as radical terrorists? Freedom fighters? What is Osama Bin Laden to you?

....what miles doesn't realize is that ENGLAND created the issues in the Middle East....FACT. There's no debating it...the United States only got involved because England and BP informed then President Eisenhower that if the Shah was not restored to power that Iran would go commie.

But all that is conveniently left out of miles' posts

We share a lot of the blame too, it's not quite that simplistic. We turned our back on the Iraqi people at the end of the first gulf war. We turned our back on the Afghans after they defeated the soviets and both of those are directly related to the hostilities people in those regions feel toward us today and why we weren't greeted as the welcome liberators U.S. intelligence thought we would be when we invaded both countries.

Still, you have to have accountability on all sides and Miles doesn't seem to realize that.

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Originally Posted by amat

We share a lot of the blame too, it's not quite that simplistic. We turned our back on the Iraqi people at the end of the first gulf war. We turned our back on the Afghans after they defeated the soviets and both of those are directly related to the hostilities people in those regions feel toward us today and why we weren't greeted as the welcome liberators U.S. intelligence thought we would be when we invaded both countries.

Still, you have to have accountability on all sides and Miles doesn't seem to realize that.

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Sure we share blame now that we are a major superpower, but it's childish to think that the US could have so much and leave everyone else alone. Our economy would not work if we were isolationist. And would any nation work against it's own intrests? So again his logic is flawed.

My main point to miles is that he cannot look at the history of the world no matter if it's the 1700's, 1800's, or whenever through the eyes of a 21st century man. Did the Indians take it on the chin when this country was built? Yes....is the US alone in doing that? NO. Judging our forefathers by the social morays of the 21st century and thinking that you can justly peg them as "good or evil" is wrong and simply put just fucking stupid.

Good. I hope the Palestenians Hamas gets crushed for good and all muslim vermins that support them. Fuck 'em.

EDIT: I think I'll stay away from this debate instead. So I deleted my response.

Peace out.

OK Mods, anyone care to explain why generalbulldog is now showing up as banned?

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

OK Mods, anyone care to explain why generalbulldog is now showing up as banned?

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He's got "BANNED"... not "Banned".

He's trying to be hip that's all. I think he's been hangin out too much at the boxingscene forum. :)

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Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

OK Mods, anyone care to explain why generalbulldog is now showing up as banned?

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He's got "BANNED"... not "Banned".

He's trying to be hip that's all. I think he's been hangin out too much at the boxingscene forum. :)

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Yes I understand that part...I'm just trying to figure out "why", did he ask for it or did he "ask for it"?


But I guess that's just me being nosey wanting to know too much, stirring up trouble and all.

I had a feeling that this thread would spark some reaction and that I would get some flak for it. I've no problems with that. I finished a game and then suddenly my mind started to wander and I decided to put those thoughts in a thread.

I must make a point though. I am not trying to say that Europeans haven't caused a lot of wrong in the world through the terrible processes of colonisation, but I was playing a game where Indians had been forced to leave their land and all for these horrid invaders who really had no right to the land. I then made a comparison with what Israel is doing to Palestine today. They are gradually stealing land from an indigenous population and the world just sits and watches. We went to war for WMD and yet we ignore the very same process that helped to create America today. I think part of that is a historical and current belief that the native Indians were primitive and that Arab lives simply aren't worth as much as Jewish lives.

I don't think that is a particularly controversial thing to say, and is all backed up by government action and policy.

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Originally Posted by ono

I agree with Miles. I think America should be closed.

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Haha, Thank you Ono. ;D

We did seriously fook over the natives,badly and repeatedly. I'd venture that every established nation took shape over the backs of the indigenous. This Country, "founders" has been on both ends really. Why I always get a kick out of some folks losing minds over Immigrants.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

We did seriously fook over the natives,badly and repeatedly. I'd venture that every established nation took shape over the backs of the indigenous. This Country, "founders" has been on both ends really. Why I always get a kick out of some folks losing minds over Immigrants.

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#1 That was the way of the world back then...compare the US to Mexico, I bet Mexico's Natives WISH they had the chance to go on a Trail of Tears (IMO that was a horrible choice by our President one of the worst next to inturning the Japanese during World War II and giving Saddam Hussein and Pinochet power).

#2 That's always been the case...Irish, the Germans and Northern Europeans, then the Italians and Eastern Europeans...they all caught hell from the citizens of the US. It's no suprise to me.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

OK Mods, anyone care to explain why generalbulldog is now showing up as banned?

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He's got "BANNED"... not "Banned".

He's trying to be hip that's all. I think he's been hangin out too much at the boxingscene forum. :)

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Yes I understand that part...I'm just trying to figure out "why", did he ask for it or did he "ask for it"?


But I guess that's just me being nosey wanting to know too much, stirring up trouble and all.

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I believe he wrote it himself. As far as I know it has nothing to do with any Mods.

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Originally Posted by amat

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Originally Posted by miles

I dwell on America becuase you are creating most of the worlds misery. Right now America and Israel are responsibly for much of the world's misery. If I was around 80 years ago my motives would obviously have been different. The British would have been my targets. In fact even now they are.

You talk of 'radical terrorists'..spoken like a truly uninformed American...what radical terrorists, Amat? The ones created by years of systematic abuse? Both economic and military? How many did you kill in Iraq and for what purpose exactly? Opening a Burger King in the Green Zone? Nice! Then there is Afghanistan and what about the economic invasions in countries such as Argentina, Uruguay, Poland, China, Russia and so on.
.

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:vd:

It's like you have your posts picked out, you know what you want to say regardless of what the responses you get are. Uninformed American? How come you feel the need to discredit every single person you argue with? Don't you realize how petty and childish this makes you look? It's fucken ridiculous.

I know full well that America has blame for the hostilities that the middle east holds toward us. However, they should still be held accountable for blowing up open markets and destroying civilians just like we should. What would you call these people who strap explosives to themselves if they aren't radical terrorists? Do you have a better word for them?

How about some accountability on these people's behalves. What do you suppose we call the organizations I refer to as radical terrorists? Freedom fighters? What is Osama Bin Laden to you?

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I feel the need to discredit the vast bulk of a population that is forced to digest a god awful right wing media everyday. It's only in recent years that the US intelligentsia has started to come to terms with it own genocidal history. It still has some way to go considering all the romanticisation of the Wild West that emerged at the start of the 20th century through literature and cinema. It wasn't romantic, it was racist and genocidal. Again, I don't find that a controversial thing to say.

I regard the troops currently in Iraq as invaders and occupiers. Those who wish to liberate their country of such a force are obviously freedom fighters and those who argue their case through journals and articles are the resistence. We have no right to be there and the only people that have gained are those with sound investments in the military industrial complex, not Iraqi citizens who are forced to live in chaos and fear. We can all talk of liberation and freedom....but does the average Iraqi really have that today? Come on now. All this stealth and fire for a bunch of people finally snapping at all America had been doing to the world for the past 40 years?

Take the shame and move on. Don't try to bomb the rest of the world into the stone age.

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Originally Posted by CFH

I believe he wrote it himself. As far as I know it has nothing to do with any Mods.

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...I caught on since PacStraightLeft did it too

I just don't trust mods is all......bunch of power hungry jerks IMO












;)

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Originally Posted by miles

Take the shame and move on. Don't try to bomb the rest of the world into the stone age.

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...well I guess we can leave Afghanistan ooooh some 9 years ago

miles....I don't hate you or anything I just think you are looking at this in a flawed manner and that's below you, and the fact that you don't recognize it is just sad.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by miles

Take the shame and move on. Don't try to bomb the rest of the world into the stone age.

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...well I guess we can leave Afghanistan ooooh some 9 years ago

miles....I don't hate you or anything I just think you are looking at this in a flawed manner and that's below you, and the fact that you don't recognize it is just sad.

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Should never have gone there in the first place. There were other ways to go after Al Qaeda and those ways should have been exhausted before any invasion of another country. That's why we are are there 9 years later fighting who exactly?

Likewise, I don't hate you. We usually oppose each other on issues such as this, but I see no harm in pointing out the similarities in how supposedly superior cultures are allowed to steal the land of indigenous populations. Or even bomb others without due cause.