PULL not PUSH your punches

I have spent alot of time on the internet and reading books about boxing skills/techniques. Since I am an older novice, I dont get the attention I would like from the coaches. They usually spend their time with the open fighters or the younger guys. So I try to learn as much as I can from other sources.

I can tell you the single greatest tip that I have learned came from this forum. It solved several of my problems. The tip was "pulling" your punches. With the lead jab, you pull the back shoulder back to facilitate the snap "push" of the punch. With the right(rear) hand, you pull the lead shoulder back.

This did the following:

1. added power by putting more bodyweight behind my shots (instead of arm punching)

2. Improved balance by keeping my weight on my back foot (which also improved footwork)

3. Kept me from reaching

I didnt know if this explanation was common knowledge, but everything just clicked when it was explained this way.

Simple isnt it ;D

I always reached before. and when I reached, my head would go past my lead knee which would put my head closer to my opponent, which made it easy to get hit. Combos were difficult since I didnt have good balance. And with my right cross, my punch covers the same distance by pulling the left shoulder back, since the right shoulder fires forward more than it used to, but my head and balance remains under that back foot. So it covers the same distance with better posture, balance and defense without reaching or "falling in" with the right cross.

Scrap, what is the antagonist pulling motion on the uppercut??? Is it an upward pull of the opposite shoulder?

Quads on the left leg, and tricep on the right arm, if orthadox.

I must say a big thankyou for this tip God.in.my.corner. I too am an older novice and am fascinated with boxing technique and improving what little skill I have. Very interesting stuff.

I have to agree 100% on that, i too read one of scraps posts talking about pulling back the shoulder about a year back and straight away it instantly made massive improvements, its probably the single most helpful thing ive read on these forums or online that helped me improv instantly without actually being shown anything in person..andit was so simple. such an improvement from just a few words of advice from scrap quickly made me realise to listen to what this man says, learn and ask questions now i travel 40+ mile every other week or a few times a week if possible to do so in person lol =D best education ive ever had, hats off to scrap, saddo's very own yoda of boxing lol ;D

I am an old novice too (58 with about a year in boxing), and I too spend a lot of time seeking the best methods from multiple sources.

Have you thought about the seeming contradiction between #1 and #3 (there really is NOT one) when you are told to "put more weight behind" the punch, and yet "keep you weight back on your rear foot"?

There are multiple ways to get your body (not necessarily your 'weight' but there are ways to do that too) into a punch without throwing yourself forward.

Somewhere in this forum are threads where we discussed this and at least one where I ran down most of the methods to do this....

Dropping, pushing (from feet), turning, pulling back with opposite side, etc....

I agree herb its not so much the bodyweight that is the point, yes bodyweight behind a shot is better than an arm punch but using all the points you mentioned at the end of that post herb is what makes for a powerful punch not bodyweight alone and this is because your using your body with good economy with the optimal triggers to build up momentum, yes your bodyweight is behind the punch but behind your bodyweight is your legs/feet pushing, pivoting. knees dropping, shoulders rotating and a solid base using foot/knee placement to get into a good position braced to recieve the recoil of the impact in the oposite direction (will help if a bag/heavy fighter is swinging/moving towards your shot, bodyweight is not enough in these cases) from which the punch is being delieverd from etc, etc which allows for the stopping power. bodyweight punches with very shoddy technique and foot/knee placement will bounce off a target rather than strike into and through it powerfully stopping.

Using bodyweight is better than arm punches but it can never compare to proper technique because there are limits when using bodyweight/gravity to throw a punch like most people do when starting out boxing.

Its all to do with where the Head is, Balancing the Oral Cavity.

Great advice guys.
I did it and it definitely gives more snap and power to the punch.
I do have a question though....How does this whole concept apply when deciding to double or triple the jab?
Does the momentum from the initial jab carry over to the next two or do I have to pull the opposing shoulder for every single jab?
I'm looking forward to what scrap has to say.:)

No, the only way for "momentum to carry over" is for there to never be a stoppage nor a reversal which never happens from punch to punch (in typical punches.)

You throw a punch -- it stops -- you retract it. At the moment it stops all moment (in that direction) is gone. That's physics, and not very complex compared with the kinetic chains in the body that produce that initial momentum (e.g., multiple muscle applying force through multiple levers, the bones).

However when you retract a punch you can -- and should -- be retracting all the opposing muscles to the ones that powered the punch. Now, you can once again throw that punch with full power.

This is also one of the biggest reasons that 'staying relaxed' is so hard, and such an important method to increase punching power, but also why practice will improve your delivery so much if you put in thousands and thousands of really high quality reps.

They key: You must be able to release ALL the contractions in the opposing muscles while throwing the punch, then at the end of the punch extension instantaneously release the muscles powering the punch, and simultaneously contract the opposing muscles for retraction.

That ability to turn off and turn on the contraction is what you are training -- in addition to the perfect form of the punch and the exact sequence of turning on the chains of muscles while maintaining balance (other sets of muscles which must coordinate as your distribution of weight and changing momentum alter your static balance.)

Thanks.
The only problem I have with jabbing this way is (aside from the fact that it's new to my muscle memory) is that it's very hard to bounce rhythmically while initiating that first jab.
I guess this opens up another whole discussion which revolves around the concept of either having a small rhythmic bounce enough to stay on the balls of the feet or staying planted on the stance. I tend to lean towards the first but I've been getting conflicting opinions.

Why are you bouncing?

Where did you learn that?

What are the benefits?

Do you know the disadvantages to that?

Well I guess many trainers including Kenny Weldon,Russ Anbar (my trainer too), as well as many professional fighters . I was told that this "rhythm" as they say it, is done to always stay on the balls of the feet, as well as maintain constant movement.
I have however heard from some people that this movement is not good.
I'm waiting to hear your opinions on that matter.

Thanks

For me the benefits of bouncings(forwarts and backwards) are 3... If the boxer bounces fast enough he uses the elasticity of his muscles. That means that he uses much less energy. If you stay 5 mins on the balls and not moving you want be able to move after that... The secont reason is that the boxer is already in motion. If you are goinig forwarts in your rhythm it will be much faster to trow the jab... The thirt reason is the defence.First If the boxer is getting hit, he will be "softer" target. This means that he will absorb less damage. Second: without a rhythm its almost impossible to evade punches(atleast to the left)... This constant movement gives the oder guy uncertainty and makes the movement of the boxer slightly faste(all the great "head movers" have their own rhythm).
On the oder hand if you bounce you loose some punching power. This comes from the mechanic of the punch. In order to get alot of speed you need great acceleration. This means that you need the biger muscles(gluts instead of calves) to initiate your punch. Thats why all the great punchers have there feets planted.

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Originally Posted by HerbM

No, the only way for "momentum to carry over" is for there to never be a stoppage nor a reversal which never happens from punch to punch (in typical punches.)

You throw a punch -- it stops -- you retract it. At the moment it stops all moment (in that direction) is gone. That's physics, and not very complex compared with the kinetic chains in the body that produce that initial momentum (e.g., multiple muscle applying force through multiple levers, the bones).

However when you retract a punch you can -- and should -- be retracting all the opposing muscles to the ones that powered the punch. Now, you can once again throw that punch with full power.

This is also one of the biggest reasons that 'staying relaxed' is so hard, and such an important method to increase punching power, but also why practice will improve your delivery so much if you put in thousands and thousands of really high quality reps.

They key: You must be able to release ALL the contractions in the opposing muscles while throwing the punch, then at the end of the punch extension instantaneously release the muscles powering the punch, and simultaneously contract the opposing muscles for retraction.

That ability to turn off and turn on the contraction is what you are training -- in addition to the perfect form of the punch and the exact sequence of turning on the chains of muscles while maintaining balance (other sets of muscles which must coordinate as your distribution of weight and changing momentum alter your static balance.)

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I was wondering if there is a youtube video of a fighter who is very clearly using that method so we can see it in action.

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Originally Posted by krotala

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Originally Posted by HerbM

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They key: You must be able to release ALL the contractions in the opposing muscles while throwing the punch, then at the end of the punch extension instantaneously release the muscles powering the punch, and simultaneously contract the opposing muscles for retraction.
...

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I was wondering if there is a youtube video of a fighter who is very clearly using that method so we can see it in action.

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Is this (i.e., my quote portion above) what you mean by "that method"?

If so, there likely isn't going to be any video that will satisfy your curiosity or give you any real help in duplicating it since to the untrained eye a punch delivered with full relaxation (of the unnecessary muscles) will look about the same.

They FEEL different however, and feeling one of those is a big difference.

Since the puncher doesn't "hold back" the punch, nor stop it before opponent or the bag STOPS the punch, ALL of the momentum is transferred into the target.

Usually I demo these for people by using little short punches with very little speed -- just so you can feel the surprising amount of energy that you receive.

There are plenty of Systema videos showing such punches but without feeling them yourself you will be tempted to think that the effects are not real or true.

Try searching YouTube or Google videos for

Sonny Puzikas strike | punch

Or start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UBk4...381ED&index=20

Sonny is the Systema guy who was one of the Spetsnaz team in the Ultimate Warrior episode against the Green Berets. He is the real deal -- and yes, I have been hit by him (but not very hard.)

Also either Vladimir Vasilieve, Mikhail Ryabko, or Val Riazanov have videos showing these type of hits explicitly.

You CAN (and I do) use this method to throw jabs, crosses, and other classic boxing punches although typically when the Systema people demonstrate the relaxed punch they use the 'weight of the arm' instead of using much speed.

People who spar with me almost always spontaneously comment (at some point) on how "heavy" my punches feel -- not that I am throwing hard or using more force than is appropriate to the sparring level, just that they hit heavy.

This is because I am (mostly) letting THEM stop the punch rather than my arms or the full extension of my joints do the work.

Punches are more efficient using less internal energy and oxygen (i.e. you don't get as tired as fast) and they go out QUICKER with MORE POWER.

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Herb

Im not quite sure what the video is about? not having a dig im just interested and dont want to miss out on the point. but it just looks like hes hitting the guy with a lazy left hook/swing which later he straightens out into more of a hook/straight for a strike or 2? seems like when hes loading it he leaves himself open due to the swinging, relaxed type approach/positioning hes taken to load the shot ive sort of been under the impression that most people instinctivley know how to punch letting a bag or object stop the punch and its this quality what is actually harder to train out of a new fighter then to train into one, to get the more prefered snappy harder to counter boxing style, controlled shot.

in my opinion this is what makes a punch like this dangerous in combat due to its lack of control if your up against a skilled counter puncher if the attack misses your going to pay with balance or by taking unnecessary counter shots. Weve all heared the saying ''you couldnt hit a person like that'' and i believe this is what that saying is about, not the fact that you cant set up a fighter to plant the feet for a solid shot like you can on a bag because youcan, it means that if you try hitting someone like this at some point your going to miss and pay for it dearly.

I agree its tempting to throw shots like this, especially on the bag and thats the problem, dont fall into the trap. a while back i was messing about and discovered unorthadox ways to throw uppercuts with a switch similair to how naz threw some cuts but with a twist, using similair principals as letting the shots go. this uppercut allows for enough force it has clean picked up 200lb heavy bags and a 160lb sparring partner when he caught the uppercut with his gloves using the principle of 'letting the shot go' and in effect the bag catches and stops the shot aswell as you and your bodyweight that is in a good position behind the shot to really drive the cut up into the bag, both using full advantage of gravity and still not losing the ability to drive with the shot, and im not even joking or bragging its not my style, i only weigh 11st 3lb, the downfall to the shot is it leaves you in a very shitty place with not many directions or options if you want out quickly, if you miss youve got to have very strong quads/hams to catch yourself otherwise your on your ass. im slowly working on the mobility issues yourleft with after the shot and with scraps expertice i think it may be a shot that couldbe quite useful but the position it leaves you with is not ideal to say the least, ive managed to set up the uppercut on a few lads im sparring with but theyve only boxed for about 8 month or so now so its not exactly a tried and tested/safe movement i wouldnt say, still needs all the kinks working out before i even think about using it on more talented fighters, which would still be a huge risk to throw but setup carefully against the right fighter i could maybe get away with it.

Interesting stuff this video herb but im afraid it needs a bit more explanation in whats going on or sparring footage to make it stand out from the rest of the demonstration only type martial arts ive seen.

I like when a fighter starts talking about feel because in my eyes to a fighter there is nothing more important, without it we are numb, very un aware of what is actually going on, scary to thuink where wed be without feel. this was somthing i always knew as a young fighter competing in taekwondo because often you was spinning while attacking you couldnt use your eyes to the effect that you can in boxing and after starting boxing i soon realised that this (the eyes) seem to cause a lot of problems. rather than actually making it easier seeing what your doing as you are often locked onto the target when hitting it in boxing where i didnt have problems in TKD over complicating/thinlking techniques because the style forces you to rely more on feel to coordinate rather than your eyes.

However in my own experience just because somthing 'feels' right doesnt mean it is.
The feel i think your refering to doesnt necisarily mean your using good technique it just means your used to doing the movement your performing, the trick is to train good technique to 'feel' right

Are there any videos of this guy using systema techniques in the ring or otherwise? id prefer to see how functional the techniques can be in a fight scenario rather than in demonstrations. i cant help but ask the question if it is effective then why dont we see more of it in MMA.

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Originally Posted by WayneFlint

Im not quite sure what the video is about? not having a dig im just interested and dont want to miss out on the point.

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I have delayed answering this post since it is long and thoughtful, and it deserves a similar answer, but you have asked me similar questions in the past.

We've discussed the same topic several times, and obviously I have either failed to explain it clearly enough or more likely you just don't agree with my explanations (which is fine and not a 'dig'.)

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Originally Posted by WayneFlint

...but it just looks like hes hitting the guy with a lazy left hook/swing which later he straightens out into more of a hook/straight for a strike or 2? seems like when hes loading it he leaves himself open due to the swinging, relaxed type approach/positioning hes taken to load the shot

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It's a DEMO of a way to throw a relaxed punch not a way to fight. You can trow the same way with any STYLE or TYPE of punch once you learn to relax.

I warned that person requesting the videos would NOT BE SATISFIED by seeing a good demo.

Why? It will either look like this to demonstrate the QUALITY of the punch or it will look like a "regular punch" and no one but the guy getting hit will ever know the difference (unless perhaps they already know the difference and monitor the boxers' affect and effect on both boxers.)

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Originally Posted by WayneFlint

ive sort of been under the impression that most people instinctivley know how to punch letting a bag or object stop the punch and its this quality what is actually harder to train out of a new fighter then to train into one, to get the more prefered snappy harder to counter boxing style, controlled shot.

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What is the VALUE of a "snappy" punch? If it is to avoid leaving the punch hanging out there then this is no issue since you can transfer into the target and still 'snap' (pull) back the punch rapidly.

If it some idea of popping the SURFACE of the target by stopping the punch before it penetrates INTO the target then some of the energy is being wasted -- or worse, is requiring ADDITIONAL EXTRA energy to overcome that momentum.

This is simple physics -- the energy is either:

• Absorbed by the target
• Absorbed and countered by the boxers own muscles, tendons, and joints
• Redirected in some other direction (like an ice skater turns and maintains speed)
• Or a combination

Where do you want the energy to go?

As long as you can maintain good balance, defense, and form (stance etc) putting it INTO THE TARGET does the most damage and requires both the least expenditure of (additional) energy to "stop the punch".

In fact, it is ALL put into the target will actually have the LEAST effect on disturbing balance and stance.

The trick is to learn to let go of the hands and arm ballistically but still be able to retrieve the punch rapidly when it is complete.

When is it complete? When it misses you must use your own power (or joints) to stop it OR you must redirect it in an arc or other path to use that energy elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by WayneFlint

in my opinion this is what makes a punch like this dangerous in combat due to its lack of control if your up against a skilled counter puncher if the attack misses your going to pay with balance or by taking unnecessary counter shots. Weve all heared the saying ''you couldnt hit a person like that'' and i believe this is what that saying is about, not the fact that you cant set up a fighter to plant the feet for a solid shot like you can on a bag because youcan, it means that if you try hitting someone like this at some point your going to miss and pay for it dearly.

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"A punch like this dangerous" -- You mean a DEMO of a relaxed punch or do you mean a real relaxed punch that is externally indistinguishable from a perfect JAB, CROSS, HOOK, etc?

These types of punches almost never (should never) disturb balance or form -- they don't commit body weight nor core power by default -- you don't need that with these, but you can add it on at the end when the punch striking the target is assured.

Even then you only commit core and balanced weight, never beyond your ability to maintain that form and balance.

Even in the demos no one is moving off balance or with bad form (i.e., posture.)

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Originally Posted by WayneFlint

Are there any videos of this guy using systema techniques in the ring or otherwise?

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I don't know of any videos where the fight is conventional AND you can SEE the mechanics - part of the point of these punches is to disguise their nature. To send out relaxed punches that look like anything else but hit much harder and without using extra energy.

But if you think it through, you will realize the physics of it, and recognize the only person who will know is the one who it getting hit a LOT harder.

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Originally Posted by WayneFlint

id prefer to see how functional the techniques can be in a fight scenario rather than in demonstrations. i cant help but ask the question if it is effective then why dont we see more of it in MMA.

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Oleg Taktarov won UFC #6 (back when there were much fewer rules) and he is a decent Systema guy, having appeared on several commercial instruction videos with the main North American Systema guy in North America, Vladimir Vasiliev.

You won't see the spiral style (for misses) in boxing because of the rules which don't allow you to hit with anything but the front of the glove (e.g., no backhands or elbows) and which don't allow you to kick, trip, butt or otherwise use your whole body, your hands have to do the hitting AND they have to protect you because you are not allowed to use that other stuff to disrupt the counters.

You can't see the boxing punches which are transferring energy completely as LOOKING any different from an ordinary punch.

Imagine you had two punches each with 100 units of energy (Newtons/second if you must).

Would you rather be hit by a punch which transferred some percentage (say, 90%, or 70%) of that force (90 units or 70 units) into your head?

Or by a punch that transferred the entire 100 units into your head?

Also recognize that the second punch that transfers all of the energy will be traveling faster and will have a HIGHER IMPULSE (energy and shock capability) value.

Higher impulses are more likely to break and crush things because they give less time for the energy to be absorbed and dissipated (such as by your head beginning to move out of the way or by the elasticity of your cranium.)

It's hard to make such physical subtleties clear, especially if the physics arguments are unfamiliar to you, so if this is insufficient then we would just have to try to help you find an (advanced) Systema guy who could hit you and teach you to do it.

Then you could try it and feel it for yourself. I hate giving such an answer, but the physics are quite clear and indisputable so this is merely an alternative for those who don't like math and such.

When you combine HARDER and FASTER punches that use LESS ENERGY and LESS OXYGEN to create the benefits are quite surprising.

Every coach tells boxers to RELAX -- so what are they supposed to be RELAXING?

The muscles that slow down their punches is what. The muscles that remove energy and use unnecessary 02 and energy molecules are what you need to relax.

--
Herb

Thanks for the post herb thats made things clearer now the post was rushed and i know what your saying not everything can be explained over a forum even if you explain in as much detail as you do yourself half of the time the point doesnt come across as it can do when shown in person properly, i dont have time to get online anymore and im not exactly an academic or anything lol so sometimes i struggle to follow parts of your posts i.e the physics in the last post lol, ill have a look on youtube for some of those names you mentioned, im just interested in seeing systema as a whole like if its all stand up? maybe some systema vs systema to see a bigger variety of its techniques are there kicks? knees, elbows etc. im curious, i may have seen it before but obveousely dont know what style i was watching.

when i was talking about snap and pop what i was refering to is the way the guy in this video hits which takes time to learn and build up the coordination and range and it helps if you know the ideal biomechanical triggers for the strikes your using, in a sense the punch doesnt look snappy because hes keeping his arms more relaxed than they need to be to attempt to get the point across on video i think and its coming off as not a push but i would say slighly lazy in pulling the shot back hes not bringing his shot back to a guard so it doesnt actually look snappy on video but i would consider it snappy, it might have been more obveouse to viewers if he pulled his hands straight back to a guard. hes certainly not pushing through the target and or missing the que to pull back, hes not pulling it back early, so in my words its a snappy shot lol and this is how most boxers should aim to throw. lots of starters seem to miss the point of what an actual punch is about and tend to push the bag or pull the shot early resulting in poor economy of energy (unless these shots are used as a sort of feint theyre obveousely not totally useless but lots of energy for a fairley weak shot) and then once youve got them past the pushing and pulling too early there are more traps that people seem to fall into..

i think i see what your saying now and i agree 100% you need to let the target stop the punch but not overly much just for like a set period of time then the reverse muscles to rotate back should kick in and this is what i was talking about it seems 2 lads ive been training have fallen right into the trap of letting the shots go too much, letting the bag fully stop their shot and lazily pulling back and when i tell them about it then they pull back too early and its taking a while to build up the coordination/skill required to get the timing right, you mentioned about training this skill do you know of any nice tricks?.

obveousely working the bag is a good way but theres the problem of hardly ever really missing a heavy bag (or at least you shouldnt be lol) so it can become a habit to land heavy shots and suddenly if they miss on the mits it leaves them not off balance but like you said i would say theyve missed the que to explode with the reverse muscles back to guard so leaves them with a very counterable shot or wound up for a right hand depends on their technique and if the punch has been delivered and carried through with good form, using the knees and everything properly.

Im glad i took the time to post about the video now it could be quite useful if anyone knows and willing to share of any good ways to train this skill it would be interesting to throw ideas around, i think the best way to go is probably through feel somehow get them reacting to the feel of landing the shot somehow, maybe add a bit of resistance to the reverse motion of the shot to further outline to the fighter through feel which muscles hes actually using as triggers to pull the shot back. feel seems to have helped them to no end on the inside as they couldnt see shots coming but with a bit of contact at the knee, glove, elbow wherever really is much easier for them to react to it seems you can feel when a shot is coming much sooner than you can see one.

Thinking about it now i think scrap has already had me doing a little trick that works on this 'feel' with resistance a while back, i just dont think i realised what it was doing at the time lol, happens all the time you sit down later in the day and think about what youve been doing and how the body might adapt or react to the training, what skills/coordination have been trained and in what way, very interesting stuff. but this post has helped me further in underlining this 'skill' (not sure what to call it maybe coordination? timing? might just stick with snap lol) either way its a very important skill in striking and its not often brought up.

I think I have begun relaxing my punches, adding more pop to the bag and mitts,at higher speeds, and at the same time using less energy.
I think the best way to describe this is the analogy of a whip, because it feels as such.
If I were to slow it down, the first one third of the punch would seem to be coming slightly downwards and initially at a lower velocity, before it accelerates to full speed and extends perfectly straight for the last two thirds.
Just like on a whip you only see the initial uncoiling before it hits its target in a fast linear manner and you hear it snap...
I would like to hear if any of you are using the same method or would like to comment on it.

[Something wrong with the forum software -- can't get the correct message to 'quote'...]

Krotala wrote:

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I think I have begun relaxing my punches, adding more pop to the bag and mitts,at higher speeds, and at the same time using less energy.
I think the best way to describe this is the analogy of a whip, because it feels as such.
If I were to slow it down, the first one third of the punch would seem to be coming slightly downwards and initially at a lower velocity, before it accelerates to full speed and extends perfectly straight for the last two thirds.
Just like on a whip you only see the initial uncoiling before it hits its target in a fast linear manner and you hear it snap...
I would like to hear if any of you are using the same method or would like to comment on it.

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Excellent progress Krotala. Yes, the whip is a good analogy for [one type of this] punch. The punch can be very deceptive because it ACCELERATES, and the key to hitting hard is the SPEED at IMPACT. We want as much of that as possible (without screwing anything else up.]

A whip is NOT rigid, but flexible and relaxed -- our arm can take on much of this same character (really closer to a 'flail' since we have two long bony-rigid sctions in the arm, then the more or less rigid hand), and the whip effect can even come all the way from out feet.

However, this is NOT the punch I was trying to describe for boxers, but "the other" (or another) Systema punch. Nothing wrong with it; just another powerful variation on the relaxation principle and more tools for the arsenal.

The punch I was (attempting) to describe was more "for boxers" because it will not change the motion just the feel and the effects (more power & speed, less energy and oxygen burn).

This punch is BALLISTIC rather than whip like. Ballistic meansthat we throw it like a cannon ball, or even like a rocket where we launch it but continue to accelerate it (almost) to target. That continuous acceleration is how the two punches eventually overlap or merge into a continuous variation of many choices, some having more of a whip flavor and others having the ballistic flavor of "throwing a rock".

The simplest analogy for understanding the ballistic punch is that of using a hammer (properly) to drive a nail. The hammer is swung and (almost) release (although it is kept in the hand loosely) so that the hammer head is freely traveling when it strikes the nail head. All of the energy (except elastic rebound) is put into the nail and so it is driven more deeply with less effort than if we were still TRYING to accelerate the nail at impact or especially if we were unconsciously "holding back" the hammer.

There is a real sense in which that hammer is "THROWN" (the meaning of ballistic) at the nail with the hand staying just enough in contact to keep it aligned and on target (and to catch it after impact).

A master carpenter will use only a few such strikes to drive even large nails flush to the wood, right?

(Gee, I hope all you young guys still know how to use a HAMMER, and are not using nail guns for EVERY such task.)

So there are whip and ballistic punches which both "let the hand fly" in slightly different ways. The ballistic variation is easier to adapt/combine with traditional boxing punch form.

Also imagine this: My arm weighs (something like) 15 pounds (or 1 stone for you Brits). My hand is roughly as hard as a block of wood (on the knuckle side). How would you feel if I threw a 15 pound log end first at your head?

(The numbers I choose may be misleading, as my arm may weigh more or less than 15 pounds, and SOME of the weight is gong to be supported where it attaches to the shoulder no matter how relaxed I am -- but you get the idea, and remember we can STILL add the kinetic chain of foot-hip-back-shoulder forces into this punch if we can both time the coordination AND stay relaxed.)

No matter: The idea of a 15 pound board or log coming at your head endwise (small surface area of the knuckles) makes the point about ballistic punches.

You can do the whip punch if you imagine the ball-and-chain flail weapon used by Knights in medievel times -- take my 5-10 pound hand and lower arm and send it whipping on the "end of my arm". That whip punch LOOKS and is MECHANICALLY different from most boxing punches (although a hood can work this way.)

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Originally Posted by WayneFlint

...made things clearer...not everything can be explained over a forum ...interested in seeing systema...[is it] all stand up? ...kicks? knees, elbows ...

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Yes, Systema has kicks, elbows, head butts, grappling and because it is a combat art it includes knives and guns (defense & attack) Eye gouges & biting, locking, throwing & tripping.

Note: NOT recommending Systema over boxing, just a possibility for using some principles shared by boxing and Systema to improve our boxing (Systema uses every boxing punch.)

Systema is COMBAT (no rules) so includes everything a human body can do (& some things most of us cannot do without serious training and practice), but it is very low on "techniques" which distinguishes it from other "combat arts".

Systema focuses on 4 principles:

1. Breathing (constantly)
2. Relaxing (continuously)
3. Moving (always, even if we are just breathing)
4. Form (restoring, maintaining, improving our balance, stance, and posture)

There is a partially joking "5th" principle: Hitting really hard

Notice a similarity between Systema and boxing in the PRINCIPLES?

Videos are available -- some stuff on YouTube etc, & many long commercial videos too. Right now the Russian Martial Art website (of Systema in North America) has DVDs, e.g. $20-30 instead of $40-60. [You could probably find many of these bootleg on the Internet.:o]

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...snap... i was refering to is the way the guy...hits which takes time to learn and build up the coordination...helps if you know the ideal biomechanical triggers for the strikes your using,
...punch doesnt look snappy because hes keeping his arms more relaxed than they need to be to attempt to get the point across
...lots of starters seem to miss the point of what an actual punch is about and tend to push the bag or pull ...resulting in poor economy of energy ...

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All correct. We don't want to "push the bag" because that is actually doing at least one thing wrong and almost always two:

1. Adding force late, AFTER IMPACT (don't add force AFTER the target quits compressing, e.g., the bag is no longer giving but is starting to SWING away from us.)
2. Holding back with the opposing muscles (at any time) -- it FEELS like harder work but gives no benefit and many disadvantages

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...see what your saying...agree 100% ...let the target stop the punch ...not overly much...the reverse muscles ...kick in
...lads ive been training have fallen right into the trap of letting the shots go too much, letting the bag fully stop their shot and lazily pulling back and when i tell them about it then they pull back too early...while to build up the coordination/skill required to get the timing right, ...

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Right again, except that is NOT "letting go too much" but rather CONTINUING past impact.

We want the target to ABSORB ALL of the MOMENTUM (energy) in the punch at contact, but NOT CONTINUE adding energy/power after that point.

The punch slows on impact naturally & it becomes pushing if we PRESS (or push) into the bag or opponent AFTER FULL IMPACT, at what is now a relatively slow speed.

We want TOTAL relaxation of the OPPOSING muscles until impact and energy transfer, with IMMEDIATE (snap) retraction of those opposing muscles, and COMPLETELY RELAXING the extensor muscles that a moment ago were powering the punch.

Difficult for most people. The harder they punch, the more they resist at the SAME TIME, slowing the punch, removing energy, and using more oxygen and tiring out their muscles quicker.

The best punch may look a little lazy and may feel that way; we are only using HALF the muscles at any moment in time.

The paradox is that using perfect timing and coordination we hit faster and harder, & use less biological energy (energy and oxygen molecules WITHIN the muscles are conserved).

My method to do this with "boxing snap" HAS BEEN to use the IMPACT to signal the switch of the muscle groups -- AT IMPACT I turn off the punch muscles and turn on the opposing muscles. No sooner and no later.

For a jab: TRICEPS ONLY on the way out, BICEPS ONLY on the way back (also deltoids, chest, back etc just keeping it simple.)

So you are right it is FEEL -- Switching "at impact" is probably the best way to explain & train it

The "switch" will never be perfect -- it will take time to signal the muscles, but FEELING the impact as opposed to SEEING, or worse ANTICIPATING, the impact give a very good signal.

By the time we send that signal & start the retraction the target will have allowed the punch to penetrate a few inches so that we will NOT be "surface punching" but will hit to DEPTH. Not to the other side as some people say, but INTO the target.

By then the speed will be near zero on a clean hit & the opposing muscles will have an easy job starting the fist back to guard, WITHOUT having to fight the outgoing energy and WITHOUT removing any of that energy -- the target absorbed & internalized all that momentum. (Whooo--eee!)

When is the "perfect time" to begin the retraction?

When the targets "compressibility" is used up -- when the surface STOPS deforming, maybe an inch or three deep.

For a head this will be a bit smaller due to the hard bones, and for a body shot it will be a bit more (like a water bag.)

Explaining it to boxers this way may not help much, and the method of "feeling the impact as a signal" comes close to getting the timing right.

Also note, if the target it "elastic" (like hitting one of those big Muay Thai pads) it is returning energy to our fist, and although the energy unfortunately doesn't "stay in the target" at least it is now helping us RETRACT our hand at the proper time -- it's bouncing back as our hand starts back.

Getting the timing will make our punches SNAPPY in the boxing sense and keep them from being surface hits (punching AT the target) and from pushing to far or too late.

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...and suddenly if they miss...leaves them not off balance but ...theyve missed the que to explode with the reverse muscles back to guard...leaves them with a very counterable shot...

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Yes, missing is an issue (with any punch type actually). Boxing and Systema deal with this sometimes the same way and sometimes differently.

Remember that for straight punches we WILL "hit the end" of our joint extension or twisting ability of our hip-back-shoulders etc and so the power WILL be dissipated by our structure.

If we did this at FULL POWER every time shadow boxing we would tear out our joints but doing it at reduced speed or on the occasional full miss (no block) isn't so bad.

For curved punches, i.e., the hook and uppercut, we must have a way to "get them back" WITHOUT STOPPING them BEFORE the target does, and without continuing forever or losing our defensive form.

Generally for hooks we throw them on a spiral curve, tightening the spiral at about the same place as the target SHOULD BE, so that if we miss we are (rapidly) pulling it around and back to guard.

Note that we must practice this so that we 'retract' only just AFTER we would have hit the target, we want the target to stop the punch if that is possible.

If a hook HITS the target it works even better -- the spiral is even tighter right back to guard.

Shadow boxing the hook works well, better in fact than using a partner to stand as a target because with a partner we must STOP THE PUNCH BEFORE impact (really before impact WOULD have occurred.)

I think the hardest to shadow box is the uppercut -- this punch needs to FLY upwards, and even away from out body a bit sometimes, so when it misses we USE GRAVITY to stop it, along with some (late) spiral and unfortunately SOME opposing muscles while it is still traveling.

Shadow boxing an uppercut AT FULL SPEED can cause us to look silly & overextend by punching at the ceiling, or cause us to pull back too early. I am still working on this quite a bit to perfect the timing of firing the muscles (on and off) for a good uppercut.

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Im glad i took the time to post...could be quite useful if anyone knows...good ways to train...throw ideas around, ...best way to go is probably through feel...reacting to the feel of landing...maybe add a bit of resistance to the reverse motion...to further outline...through feel which muscles hes actually using as triggers to pull the shot...feel helped them to no end on the inside...couldnt see shots coming but with...contact...much easier for them to react to it seems you can feel when a shot is coming much sooner than you can see one.

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I think that is a very good way to train boxers -- it is sort of what I did with myself, but then I was also trying to figure out how to use my Systema without interfering with my boxing and now I know a lot more about that.

Systema has other ways to train it but they don't look much like boxing. Breathing and relaxing drills, even doing push-ups to TIRE out the muscles and make relaxing mandatory.

If you tire the boxer out but still insist on perfect form he MUST do it efficiently to avoid falling down.

Probably the most useful Systema methods (for boxers) go back to the PRINCIPLES, especially RELAXING and BREATHING for this particular training.

Boxing coaches (also Systema and BJJ coaches) CONSTANT tell fighters to "Relax" but seldom explain WHAT to relax.

The boxer cannot "relax everything"; he would FALL DOWN or be unable to hit at all.

You have hit on the WHAT perfectly: Opposing muscles relax going out. Punching muscles relax coming back.

(Easy to say, hard to do, but at least we are now being specific.)

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...scrap ...had me doing a little trick that works on this 'feel' with resistance..., i just dont think i realised what it was doing at the time lol, ...

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Scrap's a pretty crafty coach.

Good post herb, sounds interesting its a shame i havent heared of any systema in my area it sounds like a good functional form of self defence, so would you say its basically MMA but with no rules? or are the kicking and kneeing techniques done in a systema way or like MMA lean towards using muay thai technique? a long time ago i learnt how to handle knife attacks and things from a TKD instructor ive always wondered how he learned the techniques and what style they belong too because they dont seem like TKD techniques. do you think you could post a video of some systema knife handling drills/wrist locks and stuff?

I forgot to mention in the last post about the guy recieving the punches, what he is doing with his shoulders and knees after he gets hit, how does this help from being winded? is it vital or in time can the technique be used without this movement? i can remember you saying that being winded is basically a muscle contraction and the way around it is to get a good feel of the muscle that spasms to stop it contracting when you get hit and feel it tightening. is that what hes doing?

Also this guy how long has he been training this technique to get to the stage he is at? it seems very useful for boxing but im not sure for street fighting, unless of course he is learning and in time its possible to use the technique without so much effort, a few examples. say he could use the technique while carrying on fighting as usual? moving, punching, grappling? or could he take multiple rapid body shots to the while still using the technique with success without getting caught in the middle of the technique or somthing?, otherwise im thinking in some situations it might be better to abandon the technique choosing to move instead as it seems the technique could keep you in a hole when it could have been a better choice to just move, so it has potential to be a bad habit for boxing i think, depends on the circumstances. he obveousely has to take a moment to recover which isnt ideal for a street fight but much better than being winded, if you are to take a shot, im just thinking to lose mobility and attacking ability for this technique it seems for some single, well timed, series of blows the technique works fine, however for a flurry of strong shots could he use it as effective? is the trade off worth it? (if there is a trade off but it seems like there is or might be from watching the video but maybe that guy was a novice and the technique can be mastered to be used a lot more effectivley) if your boxing its probably better because you can take a knee to recover, anyhow it depends on the ability to take multiple shots otherwise it could at times end up leaving you in a hole? just throwing some questions around as ive got some time on my hands and this thread is getting interesting.

And one last question i think lol, after this guy takes a fair few shots this way would he lose his legs? or would they still be strong? its hard to tell how his body has handled the shots taken because he doesnt move much throughout the video, would he be as strong and coordinated with his legs after this as he was before it? thats my last question lol.

Thanks again for the post herb. interesting stuff.

Maybe we should start another Systema/Self-Defense thread but if no one minds we can keep going...

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Originally Posted by WayneFlint

...good functional form of self defence,
...[is it] basically MMA but with no rules? or are the kicking and kneeing techniques done in a systema way or like MMA [or] muay thai technique?

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Everything is usually done Systema fashion, but since Systema accepts that the attacker can *USE* any technique he wishes, it welcomes people with other backgrounds to try to make those attacks work and give us practice in defending.

Most arts don't do this. For example, they have "crappy punches" and after learning to defend against those, they believe they can stop a good boxer; or they have crappy grappling or kicking and thing they can stop a Muay Thai kicker or BJJ grappler.

Systema students will however modify pretty much everything (including grappling and guns) to work with a relaxed flowing style.

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a long time ago i learnt how to handle knife attacks and things from a TKD instructor ive always wondered how he learned the techniques and what style they belong too because they dont seem like TKD techniques. do you think you could post a video of some systema knife handling...?

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Systema really has very few techniques as such -- it is working towards being so relaxed that "in the moment" you would INVENT the technique.

There is also one serious issue with the way (many) people PRACTICE and TRAIN Systema that I don't agree with.

Systema focuses a LOT of training time on "slow fighting" (aka "soft work") where your attacker moves slow and you have time to RELAX and PRACTICE finding the counters. This is not an inherent limitation of Systema nor of its actual "training methodology" but only the way some (many?) instructors training it.

I recently became an apprentice instructor in the ICSA (International Combat Systema Association) or "Combat Systema" which emphasized FUNCTIONALIZING everything to work at full speed and against a fully resisting opponent.

Try search for "Ryabko | Wheeler | Vasiliev | Secours knife | disarm" on YouTube -- Mikhail Ryabko is the Russian Master of a main branch of Systema, Vladimir Vasiliev his representative for NA. Martin Wheeler and Kevin Secours are the leading American Systema instructors (in my opinion) -- Kevin formed the ICSA so he is now my sponsor.

My main knife art is AMOK! from Tom Sotis -- AmokCombatives.com or the Tom Sotis WarriorTalk.com forum.

AMOK! uses a teaching methodology that include MORE "full speed, fully resistant" fighting than any other art -- it would be like boxers sparing 50% of their time in the gym. Works for knife because we don't need to clobber each other to "feel the cuts".

I am a trainer of AMOK! under Tom Sotis. Much "knife defense" from various other arts has never been tested at full speed with fully resisting partners -- everything is (again) legal in AMOK! as long as it works FULL BLAST. (AMOK! even used some Systema and BJJ).

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I forgot to mention ... the guy recieving the punches, what he is doing with his shoulders and knees after he gets hit, how does this help from being winded? is it vital or in time can the technique be used without this movement? i can remember you saying that being winded is basically a muscle contraction and the way around it is to get a good feel of the muscle that spasms to stop it contracting when you get hit and feel it tightening. is that what hes doing?

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Yes, pretty much, but some of these guys may (I haven't rewatched the video) be exaggerating.

Those guys are dissipating the energy that entered their bodies - many of them "wiggle too much" but it helps them at the level of their current training and current ability.

It's actually better to remove that "cramped" or "spasm" feeling by breathing and by using more natural movements, AND EVEN BETTER to just avoid it by not being tense in the first place.

Systema actually teaches "taking hits" which would benefit almost all boxers. You do it primarily through relaxation and breathing -- also movement to avoid "being there". Boxers do SOME of that last (movement) but not all of the methods are taught.

When Sonny hit me I just relaxed and unlocked my hip -- he was hitting me in the SHORT RIBS (back) and that is a hard place to take punches -- didn't even bother me.

These include what would be advanced slipping and explicit methods to "roll with the punch" Anybody ever seen a boxing coach actually TEACH rolling with a punch? Maybe some do it, but I haven't seen it even in videos....

Systema is big on this idea, and actually expect me to be able to take a full force punch in the torso without any damage, mostly by just relaxing and becoming a water bag.

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Also this guy how long has he been training...? it seems very useful for boxing but im not sure for street fighting, unless of course he is learning and in time its possible to use the technique without so much effort, a few examples. say he could use the technique while carrying on fighting as usual? moving, punching, grappling? or could he take multiple rapid body shots to the while still using the technique with success without getting caught in the middle of the technique or somthing?,

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Don't know how long, but if that is still Sonny Puzalis you are referencing then he is an OLD HAND -- advanced teacher. One of the best.

Vlad has been doing it like that some 20 years. Mikhael Ryabko (the Russian master) grew up doing it from childhood.

Yes to all those methods functionalizing to the street. Certainly for these advance guys. For me, not as much but I am getting there after 2 years of training (and I do believe we can make that training better so it takes less time.)

Remember that I am 58 and Systema is as useful to me in boxing and BJJ just for the RELAXING, MOVING, BREATHING , and Maintaining FORM because I can then keep up with (and sometimes get ahead of) younger and even fitter guys.

I don't tire out as quick because I am more efficient at those key principles. I spar and don't never got tight like most beginners (boxing or BJJ both)

It's is NOT that I am in better shape. I am just burning less oxygen and energy.

And generally, hitting harder and faster too (relaxed) than anyone at my level of experience. (Not claiming to be some big bad guy, just getting progress faster.)

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... if you are to take a shot, im just thinking to lose mobility and attacking ability for this technique it seems for some single, well timed, series of blows the technique works fine, however for a flurry of strong shots could he use it as effective? is the trade off worth it? (if there is a trade off but it seems like there is or might be from watching the video but maybe that guy was a novice and the technique can be mastered to be used a lot more effectivley) if your boxing its probably better because you can take a knee to recover, anyhow it depends on the ability to take multiple shots otherwise it could at times end up leaving you in a hole? just throwing some questions around as ive got some time on my hands and this thread is getting interesting.

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I don't think there is a trade off -- but when I box I box. I don't look like I am doing Systema -- I have to obey the rules and the rules setup up "boxing technique" to mostly be the most effective way to operate.

I can do a FEW Systema like things (some are even legal), but mostly I am "doing Systema" in the boxing ring (or even at the bag) by USING those principles to make my boxing better.

Systema is after all about principles not technique. Which is how we got into this discussing.

We can take a "boxing punch" and use "Systema principles" (which are really boxing principles too, right) to make the punch stronger, faster, and less tiring.

That's a big advantage.

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And one last question i think lol, after this guy takes a fair few shots this way would he lose his legs? or would they still be strong? its hard to tell how his body has handled the shots taken because he doesnt move much throughout the video, would he be as strong and coordinated with his legs after this as he was before it? thats my last question lol.

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If he knows what he is doing and makes few mistakes he might not be affected AT ALL -- but if he has "good Systema" he will certainly be affected less than without it.

Not long ago, one of my sparring mates threw a totally LOW BLOW hard at my gut (not my actual groin) -- his me right above the pubic bone HARD in the 'soft part'.

[He didn't mean it, so no big deal]

But the really cool part was that I just NOTICED the blow and how deep it sunk into my belly without even being affected in the least -- in fact I am not sure my buddy even knows he did it, since we just kept going.

Not being MACHO about this -- it isn't that I can endure any blow, but rather that the BLOW DIDN'T MATTER -- it was like getting his with a pillow or a marshmallow.

I was relaxed and nothing got cramped, spasmed, torn, or bruised; he might as well have hit a water bag.

That is another skill boxers need. Most boxers would likely have been bent double for several minutes from that punch.

One thing I have to do to improve my boxing TECHNIQUE is to RESPECT body blows more -- I generally just don't care unless I DECIDE to care because of the "point" or to make sure that if someone hit me even harder I could defend better.

Some of this works for the head (movement away from the punch, relaxed neck, etc) but you can't really "relax your skull or nose", so avoiding the effects of head blows isn't the same but there is a LOT of explicit stuff in Systema for doing that through movement.

Not saying you can hit me in the head with a 2x4 board, but it helps up to a point.

And it is very important if you are attacked by a knife and need to avoid allowing it to PENETRATE.

Here is some Systema work done af normal speed.

High Speed Systema work
The clip named "Systema work in reality"

It is not showing the power of the punches. Also a lot of the work, especially what I call leg fencing is very subtle if you have never experienced, nor even seen, that.

This is mostly about self-defense, not what Systema can bring to boxing because the RULES of boxing set a CONTEXT for what will and will not work most effectively. Nothing wrong with that, nothing better about that either. It is just the rules.

When I am offering about Systema in relation to boxing is that the benefits will come from using the PRINCIPLES and from understanding through those principles how to improve our punching power, accuracy, and effectiveness -- as well as our ability to avoid and dissipate our opponents punches without being harmed.

Most people will either be highly impressed by the video or dismiss it as irrelevant. Personally, I have mixed feelings about it due to my experience with fighting, both Systema and otherwise.


Systema work in reality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oScPeYRPsw&feature=related

That video was pretty sweet Herb. Systema seems basically like Russian Krav Maga... Which would make it equally awesome.

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Originally Posted by God.in.my.corner

That video was pretty sweet Herb. Systema seems basically like Russian Krav Maga... Which would make it equally awesome.

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In no sense do I wish to diminish your evaluation, so take this as being complimentary to your opinion (not adverse), just reporting things that we have heard many times...

Almost everyone who comes upon Systema and like it finds that it is "just like MY old art" in many ways, this is especially true of Aikido, Krav Maga, and few others.

The deal is that Systema has very few fixed techniques, but is about being in the right place at the best time, and hitting really hard (from there) so it can actually look like ANYTHING (that is a 'set of techniques')

I like Krav Maga so if you think the following sounds critical, please don't take it that way: in my research on Krav Maga I can find very few unifying, underlying principles. Maybe "use extreme violence" (if you must use any violence) and "all blocks are also attacks" (all defense include a counter attack).

Not criticizing just observing and commenting. If you have a Krav Maga background that serves you well it certainly can be enhance by Systema principles and no one would suggest you defer using those skills (no one in Systema says, "You can't do that because it isn't Systema" as long as it works and you can do it while following the principles.)

Oh, and remember I have some issues with (the way) Systema (is trained in many places.)