The world title situation
I was thinking today about world titles for example Calzaghe he won WBC,WBA,IBF and WBO at Super Middleweight but at Light heavyweight only won the Ring belt so if you look back in history books he will only be down as genuine world champ at Super Middle. The reason i was thinking about this was they say Pacquiao is going for his 7th world title at a 7th weight but Thing is if were talking Genuine World titles as in WBC,WBA,WBO and IBF this is actually what he has won
WBC Flyweight
IBF Super Bantamweight
WBC Super Featherweight
WBC Lightweight
WBO Welterweight
And his Wleterweight title was at a catchweight of 145lbs and his next at 150lbs now in my eyes if your not letting your opponent weigh the proper limits of 147lbs and 154lbs your not really fighting fully strong Welterweights and Light Middleweights.
Re: The world title situation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tysonbruno
And his Wleterweight title was at a catchweight of 145lbs and his next at 150lbs now in my eyes if your not letting your opponent weigh the proper limits of 147lbs and 154lbs your not really fighting fully strong Welterweights and Light Middleweights.
First of all, Like most people, I fuckin hate catchweights. :mad: But it's a good way to accomodate exciting bout for a smaller fighter and a bigger one, its like meeting halfway to avoid a mismatch and there's nothing wrong with this as long as boxing fans buy tickets and ppv.
Secondly. I don't think the 145 catchweight bout with Cotto was that bigger deal. I mean, Cotto weighed-in 146 against Clottey. Plus from 2005 cotto fought at 140 up to 2009 cotto fought at 147 in the same year 2009 cotto fought pacquiao at 145. Cotto fought 140-147 most of his career. And I can make similar case with Margo.
Re: The world title situation
No serious boxing historian/fan/nerd is ever gone discount the lineal title over an alphabet.
Pac become the lineal (man that beat the man) featherweight champion when beating Barrera and lineal lightwelter champion when sparking Hatton. Those wins are far more significant to the history of boxing that an alphabet win (for instance the WBC lightweight belt taken from David Diaz).
Same as Calzaghe beating Hopkins for the lineal lightheavy title (although it's very debatable that lineage is flawed because of the Jones/Michalczewski debacle).
Re: The world title situation
You say that but from Carlos Quintana fight 2nd Dec 2006 up to the Pacquiao he never weighed less than 146lbs then fight after Pac he weighed 153 and a half lbs. I just think if you want to be a Welterweight champ or light middleweight champ then let your opponent weigh what he wants as long as he weighs no more than the 147lbs or 154lbs limit.
Re: The world title situation
Pac has 4 world titles, as in the lineal ones. As Fenster said, no real boxing fans/historians discount the importance of the lineal titles over the ABC ones. Pac has 4 legitimate championships and has fought in 8 weight classes. Those are the ones that only really count.
Another example would be that Patterson is still the youngest HW champ, not Tyson who only won an ABC strap when he beat Berbick, he didn't become HW champ until he beat Spinks as seen by purists.
Lineal>ABC strap.
Re: The world title situation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
I think catchweights are crap because when you look back in history you see that someone like Carmen Basilio fought (and beat) Ray Robinson at middleweight. Basilio was never a true middleweight but he didn't ask for a catchweight or anything, he was a ballsy motherfucker.
Ray also fought at LHW and was only a few pounds over the MW limit when he fought Joey Maxim and was winning before the heat caught up to him.
I agree cw's are crap, catchweights started by Leonard in the 80s and caught on to guys like Chavez, De La Hoya, and now Pacquiao.
It is what it is in today's boxing.
Re: The world title situation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
I think catchweights are crap because when you look back in history you see that someone like Carmen Basilio fought (and beat) Ray Robinson at middleweight. Basilio was never a true middleweight but he didn't ask for a catchweight or anything, he was a ballsy motherfucker.
Ray also fought at LHW and was only a few pounds over the MW limit when he fought Joey Maxim and was winning before the heat caught up to him.
I agree cw's are crap, catchweights started by Leonard in the 80s and caught on to guys like Chavez, De La Hoya, and now Pacquiao.
It is what it is in today's boxing.
Good Post ;)
It would be very interesting to see just how different boxing's history would have been had it kept only the core weight classes.
Re: The world title situation
As if 17 weight classes are not enough..they are well on the way to unofficially adding a few more. Its all convoluted and watered down. We should call bullshit on catch weight as often as possible. Would be fans do not have the tolerance for the splitting of hairs.
Re: The world title situation
I always thought the weight classes should be 10 lbs division between them, with cruiser being 20lbs
Heavy 200+
Cruiser 180-199
lt hvy 170-179
smw 160-169
mw 150-159
ww 140-149
lw 130-139
fw 120-129
bw 110-119
fw 100-109
Re: The world title situation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
As if 17 weight classes are not enough..they are well on the way to unofficially adding a few more. Its all convoluted and watered down. We should call bullshit on catch weight as often as possible. Would be fans do not have the tolerance for the splitting of hairs.
You make the greatest point. 17 weight classes not enough? Kind of like the nearing 17 belts in each division not enough? Margarito/Pac and Abraham/Froch for a title? How? Boxing is digging its own grave.
Re: The world title situation
17 weight classes with at least 4 "world" titles per class.
68 "champions" without even getting into regionals.
Everytime I read about a fight with someone who I know as a fighter beating a no name they won some title. Minto won something this week. Toney is a belt holder. No wonder it's hard to find it on tv.
Re: The world title situation
An interesting character I once met on holiday told me that years ago, he'd considered the idea of buying a Lordship as he was tired of being shunned in various business ventures.
He figured people would take him more seriously if he was 'Lord Businessman' rather than 'Mr. Businessman'. Not a bad idea as a stand alone implementation but can you imagine if everybody started doing it? :-\
Exactly! :mad:
Re: The world title situation
I don't see the big problem with catchweights. The most important thing is the fighters agree to fight not the title or weightclass. The agreed upon weight is meant to make the contest more of an even playing field. So if both fighters can comfortably meet the requirements what's the problem?
Catchweights have been around forever. It's not a modern phenomenon (Both fighters take risks in catchweight bouts - Boxing - ESPN)
Pacquiao seems to be unfairly targeted as the catchweight bully yet just in recent times we've had another "great" fighter - Bernard Hopkins - recording some of his best wins at a catchweight - Winky and Pavlik 170. I don't think history will focus on Hopkins dragging naturally smaller men way above their optimum fighting weight just that he scored a great win.
Re: The world title situation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I don't see the big problem with catchweights. The most important thing is the fighters agree to fight not the title or weightclass. The agreed upon weight is meant to make the contest more of an even playing field. So if both fighters can comfortably meet the requirements what's the problem?
Catchweights have been around forever. It's not a modern phenomenon (
Both fighters take risks in catchweight bouts - Boxing - ESPN)
Pacquiao seems to be unfairly targeted as the catchweight bully yet just in recent times we've had another "great" fighter - Bernard Hopkins - recording some of his best wins at a catchweight - Winky and Pavlik 170. I don't think history will focus on Hopkins dragging naturally smaller men way above their optimum fighting weight just that he scored a great win.
all that is true dude and a good point with hopkins
was the pac cotto fight for the wbo welterweight champ?
if so has pac really been welterweight world champion when the fight wasnt really at welterweight?
i personally think the answer is no
if they asked wlad to fight pac at 12 stone and if pac won would he be heavyweight world champ?
Re: The world title situation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I don't see the big problem with catchweights. The most important thing is the fighters agree to fight not the title or weightclass. The agreed upon weight is meant to make the contest more of an even playing field. So if both fighters can comfortably meet the requirements what's the problem?
Catchweights have been around forever. It's not a modern phenomenon (
Both fighters take risks in catchweight bouts - Boxing - ESPN)
Pacquiao seems to be unfairly targeted as the catchweight bully yet just in recent times we've had another "great" fighter - Bernard Hopkins - recording some of his best wins at a catchweight - Winky and Pavlik 170. I don't think history will focus on Hopkins dragging naturally smaller men way above their optimum fighting weight just that he scored a great win.
all that is true dude and a good point with hopkins
was the pac cotto fight for the wbo welterweight champ?
if so has pac really been welterweight world champion when the fight wasnt really at welterweight?
i personally think the answer is no
if they asked wlad to fight pac at 12 stone and if pac won would he be heavyweight world champ?
You do understand that 147 lbs is the welterweight limit right? Which means anyone can still be fighting as ww even if they are at 141.
Re: The world title situation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
:::PSL:::
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I don't see the big problem with catchweights. The most important thing is the fighters agree to fight not the title or weightclass. The agreed upon weight is meant to make the contest more of an even playing field. So if both fighters can comfortably meet the requirements what's the problem?
Catchweights have been around forever. It's not a modern phenomenon (
Both fighters take risks in catchweight bouts - Boxing - ESPN)
Pacquiao seems to be unfairly targeted as the catchweight bully yet just in recent times we've had another "great" fighter - Bernard Hopkins - recording some of his best wins at a catchweight - Winky and Pavlik 170. I don't think history will focus on Hopkins dragging naturally smaller men way above their optimum fighting weight just that he scored a great win.
all that is true dude and a good point with hopkins
was the pac cotto fight for the wbo welterweight champ?
if so has pac really been welterweight world champion when the fight wasnt really at welterweight?
i personally think the answer is no
if they asked wlad to fight pac at 12 stone and if pac won would he be heavyweight world champ?
You do understand that 147 lbs is the welterweight limit right? Which means anyone can still be fighting as ww even if they are at 141.
yep i understand your dudeness
and if cotto and the wbo agreed then who am i to argue
i suppose it wasnt a massive difference to make the fight a farce
Re: The world title situation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I don't see the big problem with catchweights. The most important thing is the fighters agree to fight not the title or weightclass. The agreed upon weight is meant to make the contest more of an even playing field. So if both fighters can comfortably meet the requirements what's the problem?
Catchweights have been around forever. It's not a modern phenomenon (
Both fighters take risks in catchweight bouts - Boxing - ESPN)
Pacquiao seems to be unfairly targeted as the catchweight bully yet just in recent times we've had another "great" fighter - Bernard Hopkins - recording some of his best wins at a catchweight - Winky and Pavlik 170. I don't think history will focus on Hopkins dragging naturally smaller men way above their optimum fighting weight just that he scored a great win.
all that is true dude and a good point with hopkins
was the pac cotto fight for the wbo welterweight champ?
if so has pac really been welterweight world champion when the fight wasnt really at welterweight?
i personally think the answer is no
if they asked wlad to fight pac at 12 stone and if pac won would he be heavyweight world champ?
That's a poor example dude. Has Wlad ever seen 12 stone? Probably popped out his mummy around that weight. If Pac did fight Wlad though I think it's highly doubtful Wlad's china-chin would stay solid through a Pac attack.
AS for Cotto-Pac. The silly WBO said it was for the welterweight title. Cotto, the WBO champion, agreed to the fight, so Pacster became the WBO "world" champion. It's pretty simple.
Re: The world title situation
I understand Pavlik and Winky coming to 170lbs but i think it makes a difference when a fighter is having to work even harder to come down in weight it weakens fighters. It is Cottos and Margarito's fault i suppose for agreeing to this but at same time if Pacquiao wants to fight for Welterweight and Light Middleweight titles then let your opponent weigh what he wants as long as he weighs no more than 147lbs or 154lbs. I think even though there fighting inside the weight limit if there not using the governing bodies 147lbs or 154lbs limit then shouldn't be for a world title.
Re: The world title situation
Manny Pacquiao is the ONLY man to have lineal claims in 4 divisions. That's pretty special however you want to spin it. The only fighters with lineal titles in even 3 divisions are Sugar Ray Leonard, Henry Armstrong, Floyd Mayweather & Oscar De La Hoya.
So really, even if you want to dismiss alphabets from the argument, Manny Pacquiao has already set new records. If he was to fight & beat Mayweather, he would have 5 lineal titles (as Mayweather is considered to either already have the lineal title or a fight with Pac #1 v #2 would qualify). The fact is he also beat Clottey at the 147 limit so it's not like he never fought there, even if his tactics against Cotto were a little underhand.
Re: The world title situation
Everyone has made some good points. If it's for some meaningless ABC strap, I don't really care for the catchweights, just the fight being made. But for the lineal and legitimate title I do think it should be at the full weight limit. So I don't really care if Pac is fighting Cotto for the ABC-XYZ welterweight title, but if it's against Floyd it should be at the full 147 limit, because that fight will determine who is the man at the division and the mythological title of p4p best.
