Learning Distance and Range

Hey guys,

I was wondering what are some of the drills and tricks you guys use or used to get a good understanding of distance and range.

I know the heavy bag is a great tool to learn range. But I find that sometimes my shots to the bag are cut short becuase the bag is moving more than I am. Every now and then I hear the coach yelling, "move your feet guys, you should always land your shots with full extension".

The idea of moving your feet can be simple enough but for a relative beginner, I assume the issue becomes how much to move, or when to throw that shot out to catch the bag when your arm is extended... This seems to be an issue for distance and range.

One of the techniques I remember reading by Scrap was to tie a belt around the bag and one around your waist I believe, and use an elastic rope which is 4 inches longer than your reach tied between the belt on ur waist and the bag.. then use the bag, so that you have constant feedback from the rope to give you a sense of feel for your range and distance. Not sure if I remember that correctly, but I'm going to try that one out if I have the details of the exercise right.

Anybody else have any ideas or tips to improve distance and range with or without a heavybag?

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Originally Posted by The Student

Hey guys,

... know the heavy bag is a great tool to learn range. But I find that sometimes my shots to the bag are cut short becuase the bag is moving more than I am. Every now and then I hear the coach yelling, "move your feet guys, you should always land your shots with full extension".

The idea of moving your feet can be simple enough but for a relative beginner, I assume the issue becomes how much to move, or when to throw that shot out to catch the bag when your arm is extended... This seems to be an issue for distance and range.

...
Anybody else have any ideas or tips to improve distance and range with or without a heavybag?

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From the beginning (actually about a week after that) of my boxing training I was expected to ALWAYS move and hit, only stopping briefly for a combination.

If the bag is moving and you are not always hitting it clearly (but doing so some of the time) then that would seem t be a very good way to learn range and timing. A key trick to developing any skill is to find a way to practice it so that you cannot quite do it successfully (all of the time.)

Work slow, or work a slightly easier problem, then speed up or add complexity and difficulty so that you are always on the edge of your ability.

Double ended bags would seem a good idea here too.

Light sparring where you are JUST tapping your partner will force accuracy when the target is unpredictably moving -- you need a partner that isn't ego driven but wants to see that BOTH of you LEARN and IMPROVE.

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Originally Posted by HerbM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Student

Hey guys,

... know the heavy bag is a great tool to learn range. But I find that sometimes my shots to the bag are cut short becuase the bag is moving more than I am. Every now and then I hear the coach yelling, "move your feet guys, you should always land your shots with full extension".

The idea of moving your feet can be simple enough but for a relative beginner, I assume the issue becomes how much to move, or when to throw that shot out to catch the bag when your arm is extended... This seems to be an issue for distance and range.

...
Anybody else have any ideas or tips to improve distance and range with or without a heavybag?

---

From the beginning (actually about a week after that) of my boxing training I was expected to ALWAYS move and hit, only stopping briefly for a combination.

If the bag is moving and you are not always hitting it clearly (but doing so some of the time) then that would seem t be a very good way to learn range and timing. A key trick to developing any skill is to find a way to practice it so that you cannot quite do it successfully (all of the time.)

Work slow, or work a slightly easier problem, then speed up or add complexity and difficulty so that you are always on the edge of your ability.

Double ended bags would seem a good idea here too.

Light sparring where you are JUST tapping your partner will force accuracy when the target is unpredictably moving -- you need a partner that isn't ego driven but wants to see that BOTH of you LEARN and IMPROVE.

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Thanks for the response Herb.

I do always move and hit, always have as well. But, when you see someone with a lot of experience working the bag, you can see that they have a better understanding of distance, range and timing. As the saying goes, work the bag, dont let the bag work you.

They also say one of the major issues a beginner has is; learning, knowing and trusting his range. I see a lot of guys that do not trust their range and come closer than they need to, to throw a shot.

Also light sparring is great, I use that tool as often as I can when I get someone to work with. I'm not interested in hard sparring just yet. I need to build a strong base of the fundamentals through light sparring (just tapping), shadow boxing, bag work, etc. before I jump in there.

I'm thinking something as simple as extending your arm and pushing the bag, and moving forward and backwards with it while it swings, always maintaining that range/distance may help as well.

Yes, you do need to trust your range.

I almost didn't respond at first since this has never been much of an issue for me -- I have a weird spacial sense where I can pretty much see distances and such better than than some people can do by measuring.

We were practicing knife vs. knife (combatives not boxing of course) tonight and a big part of the drill I setup for my friend was getting within range of hitting his hand and also sometimes leaving my hand out there a little for him to "see" it was in range.

As you might guess, range and judging distance with knives is even more critical since almost any knife 'touch' does some damage and a good strike can lop off a finger or worse.

Keep practicing. A big point in your favor is you are trying to WORK the drills and truly PRACTICE rather than just doing exercise.

Keep up the work -- pay attention to the details like you are doing and progress will be fast and sure for you.

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Originally Posted by HerbM

Yes, you do need to trust your range.

I almost didn't respond at first since this has never been much of an issue for me -- I have a weird spacial sense where I can pretty much see distances and such better than than some people can do by measuring.

We were practicing knife vs. knife (combatives not boxing of course) tonight and a big part of the drill I setup for my friend was getting within range of hitting his hand and also sometimes leaving my hand out there a little for him to "see" it was in range.

As you might guess, range and judging distance with knives is even more critical since almost any knife 'touch' does some damage and a good strike can lop off a finger or worse.

Keep practicing. A big point in your favor is you are trying to WORK the drills and truly PRACTICE rather than just doing exercise.

Keep up the work -- pay attention to the details like you are doing and progress will be fast and sure for you.

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Thanks for your comments once again Herb...

I can imagine distance, range, and timing is absolutely critical for someone doing knife to knife combat. Make sure you stay sharp practicing that stuff ;D

Some very good points in there. This issue of establishing your range is always a hill to overcome during the initial stages of learning boxing, and even for more experienced guys meeting a new type of opponent (e.g. someone shorter than you with what seems like an unfeasibly long reach) can cause problems. Effective range finding is always something that should be dealt with with very small movements (Scrap's 4" principle is very relevant here, and indeed being at long range and being out of range can often be a difference of only 1".)

I wonder whether these 2 articles might help, one for context and the other as a direct drill to allow practical application (apologies if you've already seen these 2 as I know you take you're Saddo name literally in that you like to study the detail!) In fact, the drill itself does not sound dissimilar to Herb's combative drill re: knife practice.

Finding Your Range in Boxing

Footwork Drill - Boxing Tag

Hope these help mate

Cheers

Fran

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

Some very good points in there. This issue of establishing your range is always a hill to overcome during the initial stages of learning boxing, and even for more experienced guys meeting a new type of opponent (e.g. someone shorter than you with what seems like an unfeasibly long reach) can cause problems. Effective range finding is always something that should be dealt with with very small movements (Scrap's 4" principle is very relevant here, and indeed being at long range and being out of range can often be a difference of only 1".)

I wonder whether these 2 articles might help, one for context and the other as a direct drill to allow practical application (apologies if you've already seen these 2 as I know you take you're Saddo name literally in that you like to study the detail!) In fact, the drill itself does not sound dissimilar to Herb's combative drill re: knife practice.

Finding Your Range in Boxing

Footwork Drill - Boxing Tag

Hope these help mate

Cheers

Fran

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Thanks for your input Fran.

I never came across that first article you posted. Very informative as usual and I like the fact that you always add a video to illustrate the theory that you're explaining to give the reader the practical applications of what you're saying.

As far as the tag boxing goes, I just gotta find a partner to do that with. As I mentioned to you before, I tried it once, but was doing it completely wrong so I need to do the drill again, correctly this time, to truly benefit from it.

I keep forgetting about that drill, but it should most definitely help with distance, range and timing.

Thanks

if it's something that you do, week in week out, I promise it will help. Even the international boxers that I work with do this with raw novices, and both benefit. Stick with it mate, it will bring rewards!

Fran

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snNE0xIt-1o


hope this helps, its a start

I've come across a lot of stuff by Kenny Weldon. A lot of good stuff, but I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with what he's saying in that video.

I'm by no means an expert, but I dont know about stepping forward with your lead leg and leaving yourself so wide open. I would imagine you would lose a lot of mobility by doing that, and be very susceptible to your opponents counter punches.

.. but what do I know, maybe some of the more experienced members can weigh in on that.

Thanks for sharing though, I appreciate it.

well you don't put all your weight on that front foot, and as you see the distance is very easy to hit the guy...shuffle in and chasing him will lead to a lot of frustration.

That video also ties in about how important it is to 'box on the back foot'. Your weight should be back here, and you can take a small lead step- and move from the edge of range to long range. The small step is almost like widening you stance, your back foot can almost stay in the same spot for balance and leverage. The important thing is to not have your base stance too wide initially too.

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Originally Posted by The Student

I've come across a lot of stuff by Kenny Weldon. A lot of good stuff, but I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with what he's saying in that video.

I'm by no means an expert, but I dont know about stepping forward with your lead leg and leaving yourself so wide open. I would imagine you would lose a lot of mobility by doing that, and be very susceptible to your opponents counter punches.

.. but what do I know, maybe some of the more experienced members can weigh in on that.

Thanks for sharing though, I appreciate it.

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I think he has a lot of good points and the right concept.
I use a very similar technique but I always try to let my feet take me there.

Interesting video Ice.

I've never seen any of Kenny Weldon's videos, but have heard of him. I fully agree with the principle of being out of range and moving in with shots to get to long range (shots can also be exchanged with feints, but the key is the combining of the foot movements with the punches.) I just wonder whether that step out is simply too far. It's an awful lot of ground to cover in quick time and the risk is high of walking straight onto incoming. This said, the idea of not ambling in to range before throwing the shot makes absolute sense.

In terms of the widening of the stance, I wonder whether he means this literally. To widen the stance to that extent would restrict the range of shots, meaning that you could probably get one shot off, but could a combination follow? I like to see this stance widening used, but generally by a boxer who's at long range and they step out with the back foot momentarily to take the head out of range, then close the stance up pretty much instantly; it's a variation on the layback. It's very useful against an opponent who has maybe lost the will to fight too hard and throws single shots from a standing position. Bit risky using it against a maniac who attacks at all costs though.

Anyway, thanks for the opportunity of seeing this vid, very interesting.

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

To widen the stance to that extent would restrict the range of shots, meaning that you could probably get one shot off, but could a combination follow? I like to see this stance widening used, but generally by a boxer who's at long range and they step out with the back foot momentarily to take the head out of range, then close the stance up pretty much instantly; it's a variation on the layback. It's very useful against an opponent who has maybe lost the will to fight too hard and throws single shots from a standing position. Bit risky using it against a maniac who attacks at all costs though.

Anyway, thanks for the opportunity of seeing this vid, very interesting.

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ya this is something I've recently worked on as a range fighter. I was expending way too much energy in counters, essentially jumping both feet out of range, then back in for the counters...but by only moving the back foot out, and leaning back, slight slip or duck w/e...not only am I finding the counters faster and more powerful when closing, but part of the economy of energy i was also looking for.

That video is ok for what hes saying but i would never leave my back foot behind, and i would never stand that far away from someone when fighting unless i wanted a runway for a big kick of flying head butt or something lol. your back foot is your true range no matter how much leaning or reaching you do to try and lengthen a shot if your back foots not there when the punch is then the punch will never be as hard or as fast as it could be.

he says it himself the back foots his pushing foot so why does he leave it in the car park when he needs it with him to drive off of to move or strike? this video is a good demonstration of this mistake made often when starting out in boxing and quite a nasty habit to get into and get rid of, every leading movement like this will leave you in a position that will have your muscles fighting against all your joints if you should choose to throw a punch from where you are, without a correcting step first bringing the back foot with you your exposing yourself because of where youve put yourself and the mobility and attacking potential isnt looking too good either so that really wasnt a great move was it? this is what happens when a stance gets too wide.

If your fighting against joints your wasteing energy and slowing down a shot, ultimately when mastering a punch your first goal should be to get the joints working in harmony because once you have figured this out it tells you where the base is from were all your work will come from, your stance.

Once youve figured that out (good luck lol its tricker than most believe) its time to find the trigger muscles, any muscle that isnt a trigger muscle or a muscle supporting your stance is like leaving on a weak handbreak in your car, it will cost you energy and fuck you up.

Then youve got to take it to the next level and learn to wind up the shots, which means more foot, body and limb placement issues that must be resolved as to avoid fighting the joints and thus wasting more energy winding up a shot that doesnt even let go all that effectively. not a good idea

Then its the same thing for defensive movements and any overall movement you will use in the ring, find where the joints aren't working as they should/could be, correct that problem and then find the trigger muscles which will enable you to locate the 'handbreaks' and then you can relax or release the handbreaks more effectivley because you know where they are.

Sorry guys kind of went off topic a bit there to say its a video on range but i just thought id save any beginners from falling into that trap, ive been there and done that and it was an annoying habit to get rid of.

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

I just wonder whether that step out is simply too far. It's an awful lot of ground to cover in quick time and the risk is high of walking straight onto incoming.

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I think that was what had me feeling a bit uncomfortable initially while watching the video. The exaggerated step just seemed to leave him too wide.

Again, I'm no expert.. I'm here just here to learn as much as I can, so appreciate all the input.

That's one of the biggest problems we have with beginners. They tend to close in and smother their own punches, and of course open themselves up. Then the opposite problem is staying out to far and 'reaching off balance' to deliver a punch. One of the early training techniques I use (beyond bag work) is to have an experienced fighter (padded up and instructed to deliver light punches), stand in a square 4ft X 4ft, (box is marked by tape on the floor). The novice is instructed to to move in and out, around, whatever, and try to deliver puches, combinations, --but understanding that the fighter has to stay in the box, but can block and punch back. After awhile, it accomplishes teaching the novice how to recognize his range, how to evaluate the range of the opponent, respect for balance and footwork, and it gives him some confidence. Now, later on, you can expand the box, and make the sparring as versitle as you want. I learned this from a fighter who trained in the early 1900's.

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Originally Posted by Gray Lion

That's one of the biggest problems we have with beginners. They tend to close in and smother their own punches, and of course open themselves up. Then the opposite problem is staying out to far and 'reaching off balance' to deliver a punch. One of the early training techniques I use (beyond bag work) is to have an experienced fighter (padded up and instructed to deliver light punches), stand in a square 4ft X 4ft, (box is marked by tape on the floor). The novice is instructed to to move in and out, around, whatever, and try to deliver puches, combinations, --but understanding that the fighter has to stay in the box, but can block and punch back. After awhile, it accomplishes teaching the novice how to recognize his range, how to evaluate the range of the opponent, respect for balance and footwork, and it gives him some confidence. Now, later on, you can expand the box, and make the sparring as versitle as you want. I learned this from a fighter who trained in the early 1900's.

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That's an interesting drill, might try and give that one a go sometime.

On the heavy bag you have to learn to move after you hit so you can hit the bag with extended punches. The easiest way to do that is to move to the point where the bag is going to swing to and hit it as it starts to change directions (at its apex). It's also possible you are pushing your punches so the bag is moving more than it needs to (you want the loudest "pop" with the smallest bag movement when you hit). If you move your feet and stay in balance, you can find your punching range. That is really not the hard part. The hard part is finding your range when the other guy is hitting back.

I think the biggest mistake novice fighters make, particularly against taller fighters is that they stay at the end of the opponents jab, in other words in his range out of yours. I think the point of the video is that fighters have to move in and out of range. I agree the wide step is not good, lots of small explosive steps are better. Slipping, feinting and stepping are all methods of closing the gap(I posted a previous question about this). One other point on the video, taller fighters (although I hate you all) have to fight tall, never mind "eye level" if you have a height advantage. Once you get in range, if you are getting the best of it, stay, if you are getting the worst of it, leave.

Range is a challenge that all fighters, no matter how great, have to keep facing every fight. I recently watched Tapia's fight against Barerra (granted it was the end of Tapia's career and he had a lot of miles on him (in and out of the ring)) but the problem was he couldn't cross Barerra's jab and get into range for his left to the body. I then watched Morales against Barerra (which was a war) and I was fascinated with Morale's feints and footwork. He had so many tricks to close the gap...... "Boxers are the world's greatest liars"

i need to study it but it seemed in his last fight Manny P did a lot of this wide stance thing(this is also him not me or you keep that in mind) but also most often the opponent will be coming in towards you with that kind of distance. you don't want to over-extend nor do you want to be smothered. keep in mind most beginners i see tend to smother themselves and or run straight back. i do have a vid for circling to the right(yes his power hand) now that is one i would love to post... bet we could get a real good discussion off that