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This is a thread I have posted a few times in the past and it has always sparked a good debate.
Take the term greatest HW any way you want.
My list
I have made my list on a p4p baces due to the fact that HW boxers have increased in size A LOT over the decades.
- Ali
- Louis
- Holmes
- Lewis
- Holyfield
- Jack Johnson
- Liston/Fraizer
- Tyson
- Marciano
- Foreman
here's mine
1. MUHAMMAD ALI - The most gifted HW ever and fought the best completion of anybody on this list
2. JOE LOUIS - The most complete puncher in HW history
3. JACK JOHNSON - Greatest defensive HW in history, 50 years ahead of his time.
4. LARRY HOLMES - Most underrated HW ever and a almost perfect jab
5. EVANDER HOLYFIELD - Most over achieving HW in history, will to win was amazing
6. GEORGE FOREMAN - Probably the most unique HW because of his 2 separate careers, separated by 10 years
7. ROCKY MARCIANO - To me one of the most overrated HW, fought absolutely nobody in his prime but not too many HW do
8. JOE FRAZIER - He was beat Ali clearly and was life and death with him in the 3rd fight, has to count for something.
9. LENNOX LEWIS - The first true big man HW but was hurt by not getting earlier fights with Tyson, Bowe & Holyfield.
10. MIKE TYSON - Next to Liston the most feared HW ever and probably the biggest disappointment. He could have topped this list.
Good list pretty close to what I would have should I say who I would have on mine but I would switch some spots....I would put Johnson in Holmes place...JJ fought so long ago that a lot of footage is not available to view but the footage I have seen really puts him in a new light....He was fighting like a modern day HW when everyone else was fighting the old style of just punch and take a punch....Jack was fast and he hit hard...He had great defence....Truly an impressive man for the era....Could not imagine what a modern day JJ would do.....Liston is over rated in truth....His biggest claim to fame was his intimidation factor....He really did not reign as champion for long...His biggest wins were over Floyd Patterson a man many people include in their top 10 and rightfully so....These are so subjective as we all know but good list
Lewis at #9? Good reasoning at why he is one the list and fair point on why he is where you put him but #9?...LL fought and beat everyone there was to beat....He is/was one of the most dominate champions of all time...LL ruined a lot of heavyweights when he faced them and put them on the second shelf so to speak....He also had an under rated chin....Agree with the Marciano view....We agree on Johnson 100%....Not sure why you did not include Liston but I stated in my other post why I don't include him though it takes nothing away from the fact he is an ATG just not top 10......And yes for sure Tyson could have been the greatest of all time without even a debate if he did not let everything else blow his career out for him by his outside lifestyleQuote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
I agree. I never bought it that Liston was a top 10 HW. He was so non-competative vs. Clay (Ali) in both fight; quit the 1st one and (probably) took a dive in the 2nd. Say what you want about Tyson but he took his ass whoppin's like a man vs. Lewis & Holyfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
I'm a big LL fan myself (fellow Canadian that he sort of was). My biggest problem was he just fought so timid sometimes. There's no way Tyson should have lasted 8 rounds. He should have been out of there in 3 to 4. He was so gifted as a boxer that if he had just stepped on the gas pedal every now and then he could have been higher on my list.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnLewis at #9? Good reasoning at why he is one the list and fair point on why he is where you put him but #9?...LL fought and beat everyone there was to beat....He is/was one of the most dominate champions of all time...LL ruined a lot of heavyweights when he faced them and put them on the second shelf so to speak....He also had an under rated chin....Agree with the Marciano view....We agree on Johnson 100%....Not sure why you did not include Liston but I stated in my other post why I don't include him though it takes nothing away from the fact he is an ATG just not top 10......And yes for sure Tyson could have been the greatest of all time without even a debate if he did not let everything else blow his career out for him by his outside lifestyleQuote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
For sure he did....In fact IMO the Lewis fight though Tyson was not the fighter he was in his prime and though Tyson was not in the greatest of shape....Said himself in the ring after the bout ended that Lewis caught him early in the stomach and he could not fully recover from it...Think it was rd 2 he said and he kept on til round 8 when he folded after some big big shots.....Holyfield beat Mike at his own game...Mike was a dirty fighter with elbows etc....Then again Ali was one of the dirtiest in the history of the sport so can't blast Mike for that....But Holyfield is and always has been a dirty fighter who leads with his head and uses it on the inside to push against his opponents faces.....Mikes mental make up is what hurt him he could have had a 5 yr run from 88-93 retired and been at or near the top odf the list with the way he jsyt steam rolled guys....But he allowed his lifestyle to cause him losses against inferior fighters....Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1I agree. I never bought it that Liston was a top 10 HW. He was so non-competative vs. Clay (Ali) in both fight; quit the 1st one and (probably) took a dive in the 2nd. Say what you want about Tyson but he took his ass whoppin's like a man vs. Lewis & Holyfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Oh and prison of course
Listons most well known fights were against Ali and that is what most people judge him on.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
However he was the best HW in the world a number of years before he won the title.He also had good wins against Cleveland Williams,Zora Folly and Eddie Machen.
When Ali was stripped of the title Liston was considered the best in the world after Ali but they would not give him the chance to become champion again after the two Ali fight farces.
I know what you are saying mate but it is just that there are so many other guy out there who have better resumes and accomplished more then Sonny....I wasn't trying to imply Sonny was a bum just that other guys had longer reigns more impressive resume etc....Quote:
Originally Posted by porkyparaListons most well known fights were against Ali and that is what most people judge him on.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
However he was the best HW in the world a number of years before he won the title.He also had good wins against Cleveland Williams,Zora Folly and Eddie Machen.
When Ali was stripped of the title Liston was considered the best in the world after Ali but they would not give him the chance to become champion again after the two Ali fight farces.
1. Marciano - the record speaks for itself - nonstop punching and tremendous heart.
2. Louis - Simply awesome.
3. Holmes - the most underrated HW ever. A complete package and the finest left jab's ever.
4. Ali - the most overrated HW of all time in my mind. Many contraversial desicions just given to him.
5. Foreman - Powerful sonofabitch
6. Dempsey - an animal
7. Frazier - not stop workman.
8. Holyfield - David vs. Goliath mentality always loved his fight's.
9. Lewis - As he got older his skills were amazing and could give anyone above him on this list a licking.
10. Tyson - An awesome talent in his youth but f**ked it all up as soon as he signed with Don King.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
Marciano at #1?????....Moore, Charles and Walcott are the biggest names on his resume (Please we can not include Louis he was waayyyy past it and the one meaningful fight he had in the 7 years prior to fighting Rocky was a loss to Charles).....Can't see how Marciano possibly could be rated above Louis, Holmes, Ali, Lewis, Johnson, Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman...
Top 10 Heavyweight Champions:
1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Larry Holmes
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Jack Johnson
7. George Foreman
8. Joe Friazer
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Mike Tyson
Top 10 Heavyweight Boxers
(i.e, if you put all the heavyweights up against each other, who'd prove to be the hardest to beat... best outta 5! ;D )
1. Lennox Lewis
2. Vitali Klitschko
3. Wladimir Klitschko
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Larry Holmes
6. Evander Holyfield
7. George Foreman
8. Mike Tyson
9. Joe Louis
10. Joe Fraizer
;D
It is the simply fact he did what no other heavyweight has done. He beat everyone that was in front of him. Regardless of who he fought he still beat all of them and in KO fashion. Now if we are talking who can beat who then maybe he will slide down the list. But for me he retired undefeated and he deserves the nod at #1.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnQuote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
Marciano at #1?????....Moore, Charles and Walcott are the biggest names on his resume (Please we can not include Louis he was waayyyy past it and the one meaningful fight he had in the 7 years prior to fighting Rocky was a loss to Charles).....Can't see how Marciano possibly could be rated above Louis, Holmes, Ali, Lewis, Johnson, Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman...
1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Holmes
4.Tyson
5.Lewis
6.Foreman
7.Fraizer
8.Holyfield
9.Marciano
10.Johnson
11. Dempsey
yeah no way I can go with Rocky at #1. Louis, Walcott, Charles & Moorer were all WAY past there prime when he beat them. He just doesn't have the resume to justify that postion. Being undefeated vs. low grade competion doesn't do much for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
I dont see how you can say Marcianos record speaks for its self when in fact the record is a bit of a smoke screen when you look at it a bit closer.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
Then you go on to say that Ali was overrated.
1.) Ali
2.) Holmes
3.) Louis
4.) Tyson
5.) Foreman
6 -10 pick 4 from: Lewis, Holyfield, Liston, Frazier. Johnson, Marciano, Dempsey
Ali- His resume is the best there is at heavy and is also one of the most gifted fighters ever to box.
Holmes- To me was just as good as Ali but did not have the names to beat when his era came.
Louis- Was the best of his time but the bum of the month club kinda puts his comp pretty low.
Holyfeild- A Cw that to me when in prime was a fighter that could hang with any heavyweight.
Lewis- Best resume there is behind Ali only other one that is close to him is Holyfeild thats about it.
Foreman- Smashing Joe and Norton like there were bums and also hardest hitting heavyweight.
Frasier- Was a beast and has a win over the greatest just could not get past Foreman.
Tyson- Seem to be unstoppable but his week comp and losses to top comp puts him down the list.
Marcaino- One the weakest era but Rocky got the 0 when he stopped and thats pretty impressive.
Tunney- To me him beating the most feared man of the old school fighters says a lot. Not to mention his boxing skills were very ahead of his time which is also very impressive.
Im glad someone went back far enough to put Gene Tunney in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
I agree with Andre Tunney is a sleeper many of us just forget....Most of that has to do with the fact Gene was just a quiet guy and family man that used boxing as his profession but outside the ring kept to himself....So there was never a lot of hoopla surrounding him in the media except when he fought...He was not a bragger, he was not a mean fighter or a 1 punch KO artist...He was well rounded and boxed fantasticly
A prime Dempsey beat Tunney.
Have a cc Andre along with daxx all this talk about Johnson being ahead of his time. Yet there is nothing about how ahead of the game Tunney was as well but yet he is remembered for the long count.
Tunney only fought 10 rounds and not against a prime Jack. Which is why I think Rocky beats both Dempsey and Tunney.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
BTW check the pic out think I may change my sig.
Gotta love the lists... :D
1. Wlad
2. Ali
3. Louis
4. Tyson
5. Lennox
6. Marciano
7. Foreman
8. Fraizer
9. Holyfield
10. Vitali
My list
1. Rocky Marciano. Just unstopable. Slik defence, insane conditioning and punching power! Beating some of the most acomplished fighters of all time Walcott, Charles, Louis and Moore speaks for it self. Here alot of peaples will say ja but they were old. This can make me just lought!
2. Joe Louis. Rocky would have beaten him when Louis was young too! He was the bes athlet of them all.
3. Sonny Liston. He has the perfect physic and has solid boxing fundations. It's a petty that he was under influence :mad: I don't know who can beat him in his prime and if he is not selling fights!
4. Charles/Walcott. This guys have the moves, the knowidge, the experiance and the physic! I don't understand why now most of the people are thinking that being bigger makes you better. Being pumped doesn't mean that you are going to punch harder, being faster , have better condition and taking punch better!
6. Frazier just humble, hard working guy with the biggest heart of them all!
7. Ali/Jonson for the sake of show business ;D
9. Holyfield. He is really good in his fondations and has big heart.
10.Forman/Holmes/Tyson you choose :)
Nice try.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikola_ganchev
A delibirate piss take to get a reaction:rolleyes:
In no special order...
1) Marciano: condition and punching power count a lot in a division where the skill level isn't generally as high as in some others. Also, he is pretty underrated defensively, and for his ability to adapt and adjust during fights.
2) Dempsey: very fierce, fought at a quick pace for HWs. Ray Arcel called him the best.
3) Louis: most effective puncher ever, very fast, kill you with any punch. Eddie Futch called him the best.
4) Johnson: huge historical impact. I don't know enough about him to assess his skills, except that he lost to Willard in a fight I think was probably legitimate.
5) Jefferies: very athletic HW and huge for his day. Very widely respected for many years after his reign. (Nat Fleischer rated him very highly, if I recall) People tend to forget that he fought Johnson after a 5 year layoff.
6) Tunney: I guess everybody knows by now that I am a huge Tunney fan, possibly the role model in my life. I always think that a thoughtful guy that can move, box and punch has an edge.
7) Tyson: at his pre-Douglas peak he was really something. Largely, I think, because he fought like a featherweight. His peak was short lived because he stuck with the peek-a-boo style, and as soon as his reflexes slipped a bit he became a target.
8) Holmes: real good fighter. moved well, sharp straight right, effective right uppercut, great jab. Got hit with right hands and fell down but got up. A better version of Ali.
9) Lewis: pretty good fighter that got to be a very good fighter once somebody taught him to use his attributes and fight smart. But his last fight, man, that was sad. Terrible skill level for a HW world championship fight.
10) Charles: 8 defenses, wasn't it? Great, great fighter. Given his success at MW and LHW, maybe the best of them all. I always try to give him his due. And I think he'd have beaten Frazier (watch his first with Marciano), Patterson, and the rest of that group of "great" heavies. Unless Foreman caught him, or if he couldn't handle Liston's jab.
Ali isn't even in the top 10? Bah ha ha ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
I'm a firm believer in sayin' so don't make it so: Ali saying the he was the greatest countless time doesn't make him "The Greatest." There is a cottage industry that has grown up around this belief...he fought the best opposition...all that.
But, look, he went life and death three times with Kenny Norton who, otherwise, was 4-8-1 against top 10 opposition, usually getting ko'd in 1 or 2 rounds. Frazier was a one handed fighter that couldn't avoid a punch to save his life, and he hit Ali at will with left hooks. "The Greatest" should've, at some point in all those rounds against a guy that had only a left hook, figured out how to block a left hook. Leon Spinks beat him!!! He got a gift against Earnie Shavers, and I thought Jimmy Young beat him.
He threw a flicking jab, no shoulder in it. No left hook to speak of, never hit the body, dropped his hands and left himself wide open (first Frazier fight) when he threw uppercuts, couldn't fight inside. His defense consisted of skipping aound the ring, out of reach of his opponents but too far away to counter, either. In range, he leaned back and got hit, or grabbed behind the head and pulled down, which is illegal.
Ali was a master of self-promotion, and, after his exile, the media bought into it and sold it. He benefitted from an era of mediocre to poor competition- remember, this was after the television era, which saw a huge decline in the skill level of the overall boxing population.
You are right Ali was technically bad and he got some shady decisions but please you could critique any fighter like that.
Frazer destroyed people with that left hook but could not knockout Ali. Foreman and Liston were beaten by him when others greats would have failed.
The peak years of Ali were taken away and those close fights were when he did not have the legs of the young Ali. His chin and heart are not to be questioned.
I'm not going to deny that Ali was a good fighter, but I just cannot make myself sign off on "The Greatest." Too many things he did wrong.
But the majority of things he did were great. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
You know, Ali is one of those guys that, what he did worked for him, but if you try teaching it to somebody else it will get them killed. RJJ is like that, and so, I think is Willie Pep.
Very true, his attributes meant he could fight in such an unorthodox way. Not a textbook style, it was very flawed in many aspects but his athleticism and physical gifts meant he could fight effectively that way. You're right in that no coach would try and teach their guy to fight that way - it just wouldn't work for 9 out of 10 fightersQuote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
I'll have to give my top 10 some more thought before I post it. I've got an idea of who I'd have in it, but the order is kind of jumbled up.
Ali was a showman. We need one of this in every era to keep the fire of the sport :)
The problem is that Ali didn't go KO when he is hit and he got hit alot. I think it was much better for him to got punch drunk with 25 and quit boxing. Now he is spending half of his life like vegetable! When someone is boxing that way he must know the prise that he is going to pay and for magority of us it doesn't worth it!
David Haye will surely be on this list in years to come...
As this is suppose to be "Top 10 greatest heavyweights of all time!!!", why are you lot only covering the years from 1960 to present day?
What about fighters like Max Schmeling or Harry Wills. Should they not belong in the top ten list?
I guess you could argue for Sam Langford, John L Sullivan, Jack Johnson etc. The thing is, how much have you seen of any of these guys to be able to make a judgementQuote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
ALI - robbed of his prime, would have fought Frazier as early as 1968, where would that have left Joe?
LOUIS - Obviously by his record was a dynamo.
JOHNSON- Was a star in an era when everything was against him.
HOLMES- Brilliant boxer, had some close calls (Norton) A great fighter!
DEMPSEY- He destroyed everything in his path until he met the skills of Tunney
FOREMAN- The first real monster of boxing, his destruction of Smokin Joe is quite possibly the most dominant performance in HW history against such a formidable foe.
FRAZIER- Joe just kept on coming, a lethal left hook, one of the best you will ever see.
MARCIANO- His record speaks for itself, whether he fought guys in their prime or not, he still went undefeated in 49 fights.
TYSON- For a short time there from 1986-1989 he was invincible, people were saying he was the greatest ever, i wasn't convinced, but he was awesome in that period.
TUNNEY- Just nudges out Ezzard Charles because of the Dempsey wins.
I reckon there are probably 20 names that could get on the top 10 list, as I have said before ther are only a few that I reckon should defnitely be on the list
Ali, Louis, Holmes (for absolutely sure) Tyson & Foreman (almost certainly)