Floyds Resume

I think that Floyd constantly gets discredited for his resume and his accomplishments because he is a bit of a twit; but the reality of it is he has an outstanding resume that easily outmatches that of the majority of his peers! lets have a look.

Quote:

---

2010-05-01146Shane Mosley14746-5-0
2009-09-19146Juan Manuel Marquez14250-4-1
2007-12-08147Ricky Hatton14543-0-0
2007-05-05150Oscar De La Hoya15438-4-0
2006-11-04146Carlos Manuel Baldomir14743-9-6
2006-04-08146Zab Judah145½34-3-0
2005-11-19147Sharmba Mitchell145¼56-4-0
2005-06-25139Arturo Gatti14039-6-0
2005-01-22139Henry Bruseles138¾21-2-1
2004-05-22140DeMarcus Corley14028-2-1
2003-11-01135Phillip N'dou134½31-1-0
2003-04-19134Victoriano Sosa13435-2-2
2002-12-07134Jose Luis Castillo13546-5-1
2002-04-20134Jose Luis Castillo134½45-4-1
2001-11-10129½Jesus Chavez129½35-1-0
2001-05-26130Carlos Hernandez128½33-2-1
2001-01-20130Diego Corrales13033-0-0
2000-10-21134Emanuel Augustus13422-16-4
2000-03-18130Gregorio Vargas13040-6-1
1999-09-11130Carlos Gerena13034-2-0
1999-05-22130Justin Juuko13033-2-1
1999-02-17130Carlos Alberto Ramon Rios12944-2-1
1998-12-19130Angel Manfredy13025-2-1
1998-10-03130Genaro Hernandez13038-1-1
1998-06-14130Tony Pep13239-6-0
1998-04-18130¼Gustavo Fabian Cuello130¼20-7-0

---

I count 10 future hall of famers in that resume and other respectable contenders who competes with this resume? lets not look back and discredit legitimate wins because it suits our agenda instead shall we have a objective discussion about the reality of why people discredit his resume.

His days as a Lightweight/ Light Welterweight could have been much more fulfilling but that's just reaching for dreams. His resume is as stacked as anyones could be.

My issue with Mayweather is with his record in the last several years. A lot of his fights at JWW and above have holes in them. Bruseles and Mitchell? Hardly anticipated bouts. A Gatti who had lost half a dozen? A Judah who had just lost? A Baldomir who was never particularly good? A Hatton beyond his optimum weight? Mosley after a massive layoff?

No Cotto. No Margarito. And most significantly no Pacquiao.

Sure, Mayweather did a lot in his younger years, but in recent years there has been a lot that makes you question him.

He is an exceptional fighter, but in recent times, asides from Oscar, you always sense that he was looking for the easier options or else a way to make the tougher fights easier.

And how can I forget Marquez at a WW catchweight and never even making the weight? That was perhaps the most cynical of them all. Mayweather may be a dick, but his actions sometimes speak far louder than his words ever do. That was unforgivable, both the fight and the weigh in nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by miles

My issue with Mayweather is with his record in the last several years. A lot of his fights at JWW and above have holes in them. Bruseles and Mitchell? Hardly anticipated bouts. A Gatti who had lost half a dozen? A Judah who had just lost? A Baldomir who was never particularly good? A Hatton beyond his optimum weight? Mosley after a massive layoff?

No Cotto. No Margarito. And most significantly no Pacquiao.

Sure, Mayweather did a lot in his younger years, but in recent years there has been a lot that makes you question him.

He is an exceptional fighter, but in recent times, asides from Oscar, you always sense that he was looking for the easier options or else a way to make the tougher fights easier.

---

First, let's just establish that Floyd's resume is amazing. No losses and plenty of good wins. However, I agree with Miles, his recent resume is somewhat lacking. Wins over Hatton at 147 and JMM at 147 don't do all that much for me. Floyd is supposed to be the best boxing has to offer, but Froch in his last five fights has faced tougher opponents - or even if you disagree with that statement, Froch has faced comparably tough opponents. Either way that says something.

I wanted Floyd to fight Cotto before he retired for the first time and I wanted to see him fight Margarito. It's funny to me that Manny, coming up in weight, not having been an established welterweight, has beat more top welterweights than Floyd has. And if Manny beats Shane, he literally has cleaned out the division, minus Berto.

floyd mayweather is a fraud. Pretty Boy Fraud is his real name. Who did he fight in their prime? Mosely, dlh, gatti were all way past the bend in the road. let's see him fight pac. period.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by piye

I think that Floyd constantly gets discredited for his resume and his accomplishments because he is a bit of a twit; but the reality of it is he has an outstanding resume that easily outmatches that of the majority of his peers! lets have a look.

Quote:

---

Floyd's resume

---

I count 10 future hall of famers in that resume and other respectable contenders who competes with this resume? lets not look back and discredit legitimate wins because it suits our agenda instead shall we have a objective discussion about the reality of why people discredit his resume.

---

First I want to say Floyd has a great resume, but people use that statement "Future Hall of Farmers" too loosely! You might want to put some deeper thought into it.

The only fighters I give a real chance is Floyd, Oscar and possibly Hatton because they get the votes in the first year of being eligible. The HOF inductees have been reduced down to three a year and we have politics, politics and more politics. I doubt anyone else has a strong chance. Example: Do you see Naseem Hamead or Thomas Hearns on the list?

1990 - Archie Moore
1990 - Billy Conn
1990 - Bob Foster
1990 - Carlos Monzón
1990 - Carmen Basilio
1990 - Emile Griffith
1990 - Ezzard Charles
1990 - Henry Armstrong
1990 - Jake LaMotta
1990 - Jersey Joe Walcott
1990 - Joe Frazier
1990 - Joe Louis
1990 - José Nápoles
1990 - Kid Gavilán
1990 - Muhammad Ali
1990 - Rocky Marciano
1990 - Sandy Saddler
1990 - Sugar Ray Robinson
1990 - Willie Pep
1990 - Ike Williams
1991 - Beau Jack
1991 - Carlos Ortiz
1991 - Dick Tiger
1991 - Floyd Patterson
1991 - Gene Fullmer
1991 - Marcel Cerdan
1991 - Rocky Graziano
1991 - Rubén Olivares
1991 - Salvador Sánchez
1991 - Sonny Liston
1991 - Tony Zale
1992 - Alexis Argüello
1992 - Billy Graham
1992 - Charley Burley
1992 - Eder Jofre
1992 - Jackie Kid Berg
1992 - Ken Norton
1992 - Max Schmeling
1993 - Flash Elorde
1993 - Harold Johnson
1993 - Joey Giardello
1993 - Marvelous Marvin Hagler
1993 - Fritzie Zivic
1994 - Joey Maxim
1994 - Michael Spinks
1994 - Wilfred Benítez
1994 - Carlos Zárate
1995 - Bob Montgomery
1995 - Fighting Harada
1995 - Pascual Pérez
1995 - Wilfredo Gómez
1996 - Aaron Pryor
1996 - Joe Brown
1996 - Manuel Ortiz
1996 - Nino Benvenuti
1997 - José Torres
1997 - Luis Rodriguez
1997 - Sugar Ray Leonard
1997 - Chalky Wright
1998 - Antonio Cervantes
1998 - Matthew Saad Muhammad
1998 - Miguel Canto
1998 - Sammy Angott
1999 - Eusebio Pedroza
1999 - Jimmy Bivins
1999 - Khaosai Galaxy
1999 - Lew Jenkins
1999 - Vicente Saldivar
2000 - Bobo Olson
2000 - Jeff Chandler
2000 - Jimmy Carter
2000 - Ken Buchanan
2001 - Ismael Laguna
2001 - László Papp
2001 - Randy Turpin
2001 - Sugar Ramos
2001 - Willie Pastrano
2002 - Ingemar Johansson
2002 - Jeff Fenech
2002 - Pipino Cuevas
2002 - Víctor Galíndez
2003 - Curtis Cokes
2003 - Fred Apostoli
2003 - George Foreman
2003 - Mike McCallum
2003 - Nicolino Locche
2004 - Azumah Nelson
2004 - Carlos Palomino
2004 - Dwight Muhammad Qawi
2004 - Daniel Zaragoza
2005 - Barry McGuigan
2005 - Bobby Chacon
2005 - Duilio Loi
2005 - Terry Norris
2006 - Edwin Rosario
2006 - Humberto González
2006 - Michael Carbajal
2007 - Ricardo Lopez
2007 - Roberto Durán
2007 - Pernell Whitaker
2008 - Eddie Perkins
2008 - Larry Holmes
2008 - Holman Williams
2009 - Brian Mitchell
2009 - Lennox Lewis
2009 - Orlando Canizales
2010 - Danny Lopez
2010 - Jung-Koo Chang
2010 - Lloyd Marshall
2011 - Julio César Chávez
2011 - Kostya Tszyu
2011 - Mike Tyson

I don't think that being in the "Hall of Fame" means much of anything. Inegmar Johansson is in. Dwight Mohammed Qawi is in. So is Edwin Rosario, and Ken Norton. There's no standard and, really, how can there be? How can you compare different eras in boxing, or count world titles when there used to be eight, total, and now there's eight (or nine) different groups recognizing world champions in 20-odd divisions?
Excuse my rant...
There is no denying that Mayweather is a very talented guy, but you need to have some perspective. The things he does defensively that are considered unique today were once standard issue for solid pros. The guys he fights aren't all that smart when it comes to figuring out how to hit guys that don't want to be hit, Marquez being an exception.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fan johnny

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by piye

I think that Floyd constantly gets discredited for his resume and his accomplishments because he is a bit of a twit; but the reality of it is he has an outstanding resume that easily outmatches that of the majority of his peers! lets have a look.

Quote:

---

Floyd's resume

---

I count 10 future hall of famers in that resume and other respectable contenders who competes with this resume? lets not look back and discredit legitimate wins because it suits our agenda instead shall we have a objective discussion about the reality of why people discredit his resume.

---

First I want to say Floyd has a great resume, but people use that statement "Future Hall of Farmers" too loosely! You might want to put some deeper thought into it.

The only fighters I give a real chance is Floyd, Oscar and possibly Hatton because they get the votes in the first year of being eligible. The HOF inductees have been reduced down to three a year and we have politics, politics and more politics. I doubt anyone else has a strong chance. Example: Do you see Naseem Hamead or Thomas Hearns on the list?

1990 - Archie Moore
1990 - Billy Conn
1990 - Bob Foster
1990 - Carlos Monzón
1990 - Carmen Basilio
1990 - Emile Griffith
1990 - Ezzard Charles
1990 - Henry Armstrong
1990 - Jake LaMotta
1990 - Jersey Joe Walcott
1990 - Joe Frazier
1990 - Joe Louis
1990 - José Nápoles
1990 - Kid Gavilán
1990 - Muhammad Ali
1990 - Rocky Marciano
1990 - Sandy Saddler
1990 - Sugar Ray Robinson
1990 - Willie Pep
1990 - Ike Williams
1991 - Beau Jack
1991 - Carlos Ortiz
1991 - Dick Tiger
1991 - Floyd Patterson
1991 - Gene Fullmer
1991 - Marcel Cerdan
1991 - Rocky Graziano
1991 - Rubén Olivares
1991 - Salvador Sánchez
1991 - Sonny Liston
1991 - Tony Zale
1992 - Alexis Argüello
1992 - Billy Graham
1992 - Charley Burley
1992 - Eder Jofre
1992 - Jackie Kid Berg
1992 - Ken Norton
1992 - Max Schmeling
1993 - Flash Elorde
1993 - Harold Johnson
1993 - Joey Giardello
1993 - Marvelous Marvin Hagler
1993 - Fritzie Zivic
1994 - Joey Maxim
1994 - Michael Spinks
1994 - Wilfred Benítez
1994 - Carlos Zárate
1995 - Bob Montgomery
1995 - Fighting Harada
1995 - Pascual Pérez
1995 - Wilfredo Gómez
1996 - Aaron Pryor
1996 - Joe Brown
1996 - Manuel Ortiz
1996 - Nino Benvenuti
1997 - José Torres
1997 - Luis Rodriguez
1997 - Sugar Ray Leonard
1997 - Chalky Wright
1998 - Antonio Cervantes
1998 - Matthew Saad Muhammad
1998 - Miguel Canto
1998 - Sammy Angott
1999 - Eusebio Pedroza
1999 - Jimmy Bivins
1999 - Khaosai Galaxy
1999 - Lew Jenkins
1999 - Vicente Saldivar
2000 - Bobo Olson
2000 - Jeff Chandler
2000 - Jimmy Carter
2000 - Ken Buchanan
2001 - Ismael Laguna
2001 - László Papp
2001 - Randy Turpin
2001 - Sugar Ramos
2001 - Willie Pastrano
2002 - Ingemar Johansson
2002 - Jeff Fenech
2002 - Pipino Cuevas
2002 - Víctor Galíndez
2003 - Curtis Cokes
2003 - Fred Apostoli
2003 - George Foreman
2003 - Mike McCallum
2003 - Nicolino Locche
2004 - Azumah Nelson
2004 - Carlos Palomino
2004 - Dwight Muhammad Qawi
2004 - Daniel Zaragoza
2005 - Barry McGuigan
2005 - Bobby Chacon
2005 - Duilio Loi
2005 - Terry Norris
2006 - Edwin Rosario
2006 - Humberto González
2006 - Michael Carbajal
2007 - Ricardo Lopez
2007 - Roberto Durán
2007 - Pernell Whitaker
2008 - Eddie Perkins
2008 - Larry Holmes
2008 - Holman Williams
2009 - Brian Mitchell
2009 - Lennox Lewis
2009 - Orlando Canizales
2010 - Danny Lopez
2010 - Jung-Koo Chang
2010 - Lloyd Marshall
2011 - Julio César Chávez
2011 - Kostya Tszyu
2011 - Mike Tyson

---

We could spend a lot of time picking this list apart of fighters that do/do not belong. Floyd will have his place in there for the exceptional job he did all the way up to the De La Hoya fight. Regardless, you could write everything off after that and call it a HOF career.

But, yet again, Miles is correct about earning no kudos for just about anything after his foray into Welter. It's hard to explain why you like boxing when Floyd Mayweather is your posterboy this past decade.

It was going to be a great resume but now it is only very good at best.

Floyd has a good mresume...There are fighters who are in the HOF or considered elite that have worse for sure....My issue with Floyd is and IMO Miles touched on it perfectly....Floyd has had the habit and this is not opinion it is a fact and it has nothing to do with liking the guy or not because there are plenty of fighters I like and think they have a shit resume and plenty I dislike and IMO have a great resume....

Once Floyd left LW it is hard pressed to see anyone on his list that was the best available at the time he fought them or were they peak...EG as stated by another poster...At LWW he fought Gatti?...OK good fight Gatti get the guy you know you will beat for a title with little resistance...I have no issue with that but then we avoid all the other threats at the weight class?.....IT HAS ZERO TO DO WITH IF FLOYD WOULD HAVE BEATEN THEM OR NOT FACT IS HE CHOSE NOT TO FIGHT THE MOST DANGEROUS MEN AVAILABLE TO PROVE HE IS THE BEST....Is that not what being the best is about?...The hell with Cotto who was in most peoples opp at the time a monstor at 140 he was walking through everyone....

He instead chose to move up to WW...OK no problems with that just a quick stop ove at 140 adjust to weight, grab a quick title and make it clear you are not looking to move in...So at WW we beat Baldo...Hey the man was the Ring champ at the moment so he was the man to fight regardless of his skillset...(Though in another thread someone tried to actually pass off Baldo was the favorite to win:o)....He wins the title then moves up for 1 mega fight with DLH wins by a SD why lets be honest DLH faded in 10 and did nothing for 3 rds so he gave them away with exception of part of the 12th....he retires after fighting Hatton who asked for trouble by calling Floyd out but shit man Hatton struggled at WW and everyone knows it....So Floyd retires then comes back to fight JMM who had 1 fight at LW before fighting Floyd at 142 in reality JMM jumped up 2 weight classes to fight a man who called him out and did not even come in on the agreed upon weight!!!!....Then Mosley...Hey I don't take that away from him because Mosley was considered the man at WW since he destroyed Margarito but look at who Floyd missed.....

Cotto, Williams, Margarito, Spinks, Cintron, Clottey, Berto and so on...Would he have beaten them? More then likely but they presented challenges and would have made Floyd for the most part either fight his ass off or make him look bad in winning.....Margarito before the whole Mosley incident was beating the shit out of guys at WW and Floyd was claiming to be the man...Williams was being avoided...Clottey makes even those who beat him look bad, Cintron who is menatlly weak had the punch to hurt Floyd if he caught him...All would have fought him all were considered top contenders or champions at the time Floyd should have could have faced them.....Instead Floyd chose the easiest route and chose the easiest of the champions to fight.....It is OK once, twice even three times but not as a habit...Do not come back after a layoff and tell us you picked JMM because he was the best available in the sport....And he needed to fight the P4P best :rolleyes:....If JuanMa was rated P4P best on Floyd return would he have fought him? Maybe Calderon if he was rated best?.Of course not because the weight would have been impossible but what about the best second best or even third best in his division outside of Mosley? Floyd was called out by Williams, Cotto said he would fight him, as did some guys at 154....But what did Floyd do?........

Like i said he has a good resume and has taken the soft road since his days at 135.....He doesw not have the worst resume by far hell SRR had many soft opp on his resume and he is considered the best of all time....Then again he also fought the most dangerous around as well...

Of course because I don't blow smoke up Floyds ass I must be a Pacquiao fan or PacTard:rolleyes:...Yet IMO Pacquiao and his catchweight fights are the worst thing for boxing and should be considered exhibitions not legit bouts

No wait now that makes me a PBF nuthugger right?.......

I think that floyds resume even since becoming a Ww is awesome! Moseley, hatton(why don't people rate this win?), Oscar at 154 zab sure had lost but the fight was signed before the loss, baldomir ( bit throw away), jmm, other than PAC show me one active fighter at that weight with a better run than that

Look love him or hate him. When you think boxing. You think either floyd or pac. Both are the shit, the best, whatever, and anyone saying anything different either hates one or the other or works for one of the camps.

one thing for sure, as much controversial as he is, Floyd stirs interest and brings money on the table. I am definitely not fond of him, I think his resume is now very good instead of stellar because of his latest years but would he decide to challenge Pacman or another top opponent, it might well go to stellar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fan johnny

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by piye

I think that Floyd constantly gets discredited for his resume and his accomplishments because he is a bit of a twit; but the reality of it is he has an outstanding resume that easily outmatches that of the majority of his peers! lets have a look.

Quote:

---

Floyd's resume

---

I count 10 future hall of famers in that resume and other respectable contenders who competes with this resume? lets not look back and discredit legitimate wins because it suits our agenda instead shall we have a objective discussion about the reality of why people discredit his resume.

---

First I want to say Floyd has a great resume, but people use that statement "Future Hall of Farmers" too loosely! You might want to put some deeper thought into it.

The only fighters I give a real chance is Floyd, Oscar and possibly Hatton because they get the votes in the first year of being eligible. The HOF inductees have been reduced down to three a year and we have politics, politics and more politics. I doubt anyone else has a strong chance. Example: Do you see Naseem Hamead or Thomas Hearns on the list?

---

Hearns is without a doubt a Hall of Famer. The reason he ain't in is cuz he fought in early 06. So he just recently met the 5 years retire mark. He will be elected in to next years class. That's a guarantee.

Hypothetically Floyd Mayweather Jr fights Sergio Martinez and beats him without a doubt PBF makes my top 3 ATG list. PBF does not need to fight PAC or anybody else for that matter. The scary thing is it might just happen, just a gut feeling.

Why do people say Floyd needs to fight Pac? Compare PAC's resume to floyds and floyd wins hands down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caine3078

Why do people say Floyd needs to fight Pac? Compare PAC's resume to floyds and floyd wins hands down.

---

Out of all the posts in this thread, this is the most flawed. To flat out and say that is laughable. Both fighter's resume is arguably better, hands down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by C-Lo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caine3078

Why do people say Floyd needs to fight Pac? Compare PAC's resume to floyds and floyd wins hands down.

---

Out of all the posts in this thread, this is the most flawed. To flat out and say that is laughable. Both fighter's resume is arguably better, hands down.

---

Have to agree to disagree. Manny has 3 losses 2 by KO to nobodies that alone makes Floyds resume better than his. IMO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caine3078

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by C-Lo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caine3078

Why do people say Floyd needs to fight Pac? Compare PAC's resume to floyds and floyd wins hands down.

---

Out of all the posts in this thread, this is the most flawed. To flat out and say that is laughable. Both fighter's resume is arguably better, hands down.

---

Have to agree to disagree. Manny has 3 losses 2 by KO to nobodies that alone makes Floyds resume better than his. IMO

---

C-Lo is 100% correct, by your logic these guys all would have a better resume than Floyd, although some actually do and some don't.

Jimmy Barry - World Paperweight Champion (110lbs) - 58 (30) - 0
Ricardo Lopez - IBF Light Flyweight Champion - 51 (30) - 0
Rocky Marciano - World Heavyweight Champion - 49 (43) - 0
Samson Dutch Boy Gym - WBF Super Flyweight Champion - 43 (36) - 0
Edson Pedro Nascimento - UBC Ibero-American Lightweight Champion - 47 (40) - 0
Agustin Senin - Spanish & EBU (European) Bantamweight Champion - 42 (21) - 0
Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. WBC World Silver middleweight Champion - 42 (10) - 0
Chris John - WBA Super World featherweight title - 44 (22) -0


Fighters are defined by who they face in the ring and what they do in the ring, And in some cases by who they don't meet in the ring. Although it is relevant, they are not typically defined by their win loss record. (see above)

I rate them pretty even in a lot ways there resumes are not to far off from one another. I have to tip it some what in Mayweather favor because faced good comp and come out undefeated. Now i am not saying Pac is the same as he was when he lost. I mean his first lose i don't count but his second lost he was title holder and the third loss don't think to far off prime. Also when people bring how Mayweather only fights people on the slide well i mean Dela hoya was done and pac fought him. Hatton just got his ass handed to him by Mayweather and then Pac fought him. Cotto just got smashed by Margarito and then pac ends up fighting him. I just saying it goes both ways, i still think they belong with likes of Leonard, Duran, Ali, and Hearns when you talk about great fighters they both done alot.

Putting down pacs resume is silky as it's also one of the best in the sport.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caine3078

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by C-Lo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caine3078

Why do people say Floyd needs to fight Pac? Compare PAC's resume to floyds and floyd wins hands down.

---

Out of all the posts in this thread, this is the most flawed. To flat out and say that is laughable. Both fighter's resume is arguably better, hands down.

---

Have to agree to disagree. Manny has 3 losses 2 by KO to nobodies that alone makes Floyds resume better than his. IMO

---

You know this is really nonsense. If you think for a moment Pacquiao's losses are going to bite him in the ass when they take his career into consideration, you must be kidding. Pacquiao has put together a string of wins that rivals all who have ever boxed. Mayweather can ONLY rely on his "0"

Nobody who knows anything about boxing at all would try to say "the verdict is out and Mayweather is better. I checked the record books... and Pacquiao has met defeat before! Case closed" Well Sergio Martinez lost his first fight! Hopkins.. his, too! Doniare.. his second. It's not the losses that account for a boxers credibility. It is their behavior after their losses. Pacquiao has done something tremendous with a career that could have stopped short like Naseem Hamed after meeting defeat for the first time.

Pac could fight both the guys who KOed him at the same time today with his left hand behind his back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caine3078

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by C-Lo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caine3078

Why do people say Floyd needs to fight Pac? Compare PAC's resume to floyds and floyd wins hands down.

---

Out of all the posts in this thread, this is the most flawed. To flat out and say that is laughable. Both fighter's resume is arguably better, hands down.

---

Have to agree to disagree. Manny has 3 losses 2 by KO to nobodies that alone makes Floyds resume better than his. IMO

---

A loss to Morales in his last quality performance that was avenged in rematches can not be broken down as anything other then what it was a loss by another ATG that was hard fought...

The other two were Manny was not even old enough to by a scratch off ticket so really it makes no sense....That is like saying Hopkins is an over rated bum who lost his first outing.....

Look i do agree Pac first lose should not even be brought up but his second lose he as title holder. I mean Hopkins first real lose was to Jones and there is no shame in that at all.