Are these US protests significant?

I must admit that I have been lazy in the past month or so when it comes to current events. Of course I do know what's going on around the world and do check the headlines everyday, but in terms of following things really closely I have slackened off. I've actually been quite busy trying to plan an entire semester in one big chunk as well as teach. Even my output here has become a bit less prolific as a result. It doesn't leave much time to follow news closely, but one thing that has been catching my eye, along with all the middle east madness, are these protests that seem to be spreading across America.

So basically, I would like my American comrades to let me know of the significance of these protests. Is this the point where after 30 years of middle class assault that the electorate is finally taking it back? Is this the saturation or breaking point? It was great to see half a million taking to the streets in London. I would love for something on that scale to start happening in America too. Of course, if this is really the case then I take my hat off to all the American's who are getting involved. Anything that helps to swing the ball back in favour of the little man is alright by my book. I hope to read a lot more about it all this weekend. This is the kind of thing that really interests me.

What? The only protests I see are the 3-8 people (yes as in 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 of them at most) outside the courthouse every Monday with signs like "No blood for Oil" and "North Carolina Labor Against the War in Afghanistan/Iraq/Libya" and a couple of jobless hippies are playing drums out there when the weather is nice (Fair weather protesters I reckon).


Other than that I have actually seen 0 protesting.....now on the national level the people in Wisconsin are pissed off (as are the folks in New Jersey, Ohio etc) because the Government Union workers are finally getting, oh how should I put this ...ah ;D they are having their pensions and benefits "regulated" in order for those states to achieve a balanced budget.


2012 can't get here soon enough...Obama has shown he knows fuck all about LEADING a country, he's in way over his head and I dare anyone to tell me Sarah Palin could fuck things up worse. I don't even like her but damn Obama sucks, he's got no damn clue he just wants to do interviews, pick his brackets on ESPN, and just continue being a cult of personality.

Protests? None that I know of here.

Obama might not be a good president, but shit he aint no worse than Dubya. People seem to have selective memory that the wars and country's shit economy were all under Dubya's watch not the current guy.

I've a general perception of what the protests taking place are about, but no real insight so can't really respond with much. I will try and catch up properly over the weekend.

I do call into question your final paragraph though. It bewilders me how any human being can suggest that someone as clueless and downright stupid as Sarah Palin could in any way be a better president than Obama. And I say that as someone who is notoriously gun shy of slinging praise Obama's way. Did you not see those Sarah Palin videos that I posted in a thread a few months back. She is beyond belief, both morally and intellectually. Kid Thunder could knock her out in a debate! ;D

That is true, GB.

The wars were Bush's as was the financial crisis. Obama has been sweeping up crap ever since. My problems with Obama are because of his reluctance to seriously reform health care nor come to grips with the financial sector. There were zero prosecutions for the financial meltdown despite fraud being endemic in the system. It wasn't really possible to just stop the wars in their tracks at the drop of a hat either, but I don't believe expanding in Afghanistan has helped. I also disagree strongly with the way the Bradley Manning case has been handled. I'm kind of sidestepping with all of that though.

Still, you haven't really noticed any protests either. The alternative media I have been listening to a little has been mentioning them a lot, but I really haven't been as comprehensively as I used to.

Miles are you talking about the protests in Wisconsin, Indiana and Ohio over public sector union's collective bargaining rights? A couple weeks behind but other than those I can't think of any major protests that have been going on.

GeneralBulldog just because W was a somewhat poor President (look at the unemployment rate under him thank you very much) doesn't mean we needed to follow his term up with a worse President....yes right now I DO miss W and I never really liked him before.

Miles I didn't say Palin would do a better job I said I don't see how she could do a worse job than Obama. There IS a difference.

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

Miles are you talking about the protests in Wisconsin, Indiana and Ohio over public sector union's collective bargaining rights? A couple weeks behind but other than those I can't think of any major protests that have been going on.

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Yes, all of those.

I'm not that far behind as I know protests are happening, but just haven't given the time to finding out the ins and outs of it all. It was being suggested that this is an expanding thing and that got me curious, just thought I would ask on here first. It seems they aren't such a big deal judging by the mild reactions on here.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

GeneralBulldog just because W was a somewhat poor President (look at the unemployment rate under him thank you very much) doesn't mean we needed to follow his term up with a worse President....yes right now I DO miss W and I never really liked him before.

Miles I didn't say Palin would do a better job I said I don't see how she could do a worse job than Obama. There IS a difference.

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To be fair, you also said that you don't like her, which is actually good enough for me.

But I think you are totally misguided on Bush Jr. How could unemployment not rise after the worst financial meltdown since the great depression? Obama is not to blame for this. How can an 8 year term fix 30 years of deregulation and privatised corporations running amok by planting themselves overseas? It's not an Obama problem in the slightest. Obama came to office a couple of months after it all imploded! He has his faults, but unemployment is not one of them.

OK miles, all I'll ask is "What has Obama done to remedy the situation?" .....the answer is NOTHING. He hasn't done as all President's before him have done and spoken to the people about how this is to be fixed. Obama is the United States' answer to Louis XIV, he's got 0 connection to the common man and no clue how to lead a country.

I'm not a fan of Obama, but you know what I find hilarious? It's that a lot of people are blaming Obama for the multiple wars and the economic crises that he inherited. Like I said people have selective memory on who was president during the economic turmoil and the wars that the US is currently in.

That is all, you an argue among yourselves.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

OK miles, all I'll ask is "What has Obama done to remedy the situation?" .....the answer is NOTHING. He hasn't done as all President's before him have done and spoken to the people about how this is to be fixed. Obama is the United States' answer to Louis XIV, he's got 0 connection to the common man and no clue how to lead a country.

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Lyle, I am not going to sit here defending Obama. I don't like him as you know. But basically you are dealing with the Roman empire towards the end. How can you blame the guy that inherited it all? He was left with no chance. Then of course the crazies get in towards the end and then it all implodes.

I agree with you that he has been a crap President, but let's not pretend that Bush did anything concrete to help the working people of your country. Nor any President in any serious way since Reagan.

It has all been about dismantling working groups and continually providing tax breaks for the rich and expanding the military. To make the rich richer it has been about privatising health care (pre Reagan), expanding insurances, giving free reign to wall street, crushing unions etc. The financial aspects imploded and Obama didn't reign it in, pretty much because the rich now controlled it all.

That is why I was interested in this little bit of a fight back, but it appears that the American's can still afford to put rice on their tables.

Miles
I'm not sure what the end state was in Indiana or Ohio but the ability of public sector unions in Wisconsin was drastically cut. I think it is awesome but I also do not really care since I don't live in Wisconsin. The pundits and media would like to make this a huge national issues but the truth is that large parts of the U.S. are right to work states, meaning there is very little to no unions, and the fact that the pension plans for public sector employees really are driving states into bankruptcy. As far as the protests go, sure there were a lot of passionate people in Wisconsin getting lots of media attention, but the MAJORITY of the state's population clearly backed the governor and states legislators when they voted them into office based on the promise to end the public sector union's stranglehold on the state capitol.

To the people involved in the protests, they matter. Are they significant?

About as significant as a British citizen, who currently lives in Korea, talking politics on a boxing forum, with a hard on against the US.

Not really.

JMO

If public sector unions are the root of all evil, then why weren't police pension plans included? In California, specifically, for well over a decade local governments have been complaining that police pensions, specifically, are over-taxing their budgets. I think that if the problem of public sector unions is to be addressed, then all public sector unions should be affected equally. Unless, of course, the intent is to create a police state, then by all means they should be treated differently.
And I'm self-employed and always have been.

I agree all public sector unions should be gotten rid of. It was interesting that Fire and Police were left out of the bill in Wisconsin. Maybe that was a bridge too far this time. It is not so much that public sector unions are evil rather that they can't help but exacerbate budget issues. If I want to work in that industry I have to join the union and pay a portion of my income to the union, which sure sounds like a racket to me. That portion of my income is used to pay union admin salaries and for political donations. Public sector unions donate a tremendous amount of money so more often than not the politician that negotiates the collective bargaining deal with the union is beholden to them for their elected position in the first place. Hence they do a crappy job of negotiating. Call me old fashioned but I'd much rather negotiate my own wage and benefits based on my personal merit rather than having what equates to an organized racket strong arming politicians.

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Originally Posted by Ghost

To the people involved in the protests, they matter. Are they significant?

About as significant as a British citizen, who currently lives in Korea, talking politics on a boxing forum, with a hard on against the US.

Not really.

JMO

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I have nothing against the citizens of the United States and only wish them well, but there is no escaping the fact that middle America has been systematically taken apart for well over 30 years. And this is planned and deliberate. So, because I am British and live overseas, that automatically means that I should have no viewpoints about international politics and should certainly abstain from any opinions concerning the country effectively rules the world? Damn the BBC for covering the Libya crisis too, eh?

Once again you respond with nothing more than snide little comments. Whatever floats your boat.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Ghost

To the people involved in the protests, they matter. Are they significant?

About as significant as a British citizen, who currently lives in Korea, talking politics on a boxing forum, with a hard on against the US.

Not really.

JMO

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I have nothing against the citizens of the United States and only wish them well, but there is no escaping the fact that middle America has been systematically taken apart for well over 30 years. And this is planned and deliberate. So, because I am British and live overseas, that automatically means that I should have no viewpoints about international politics and should certainly abstain from any opinions concerning the country effectively rules the world? Damn the BBC for covering the Libya crisis too, eh?

Once again you respond with nothing more than snide little comments. Whatever floats your boat.

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It doesn't mean you can't have any viewpoints but be warned that people in the US will not take you seriously when you don't have any experience of what middle America is besides reading about it in news articles or being a foreign tourist that visited America for a few days or few weeks. So there are people that will not take you seriously.

Just like I don't like it when Americans talk about other countries that they have really no knowledge about besides at the most reading about the situation in news articles or just visiting that country for a few weeks as some tourist. Domestic issues of other countries let people that live there talk about it, because they know more of what goes on than some outsider.

And furthermore the US is a big place, middle America in California would be different than say middle America in North Dakota. It's not entirely the same and solutions of 1 size fits all is pretty lame.

And BTW, talking about some's country middle class is entirely another country's domestic issue not what I would call "international politics." In fact you know nothing about the situation here, hence why you are starting a thread entitled, "Are these US protests significant?"

Not really sure what the right answer is but the American middle class has largely priced themselves out of a job. When my old man (71 yrs old) was a teenager a guy could graduate high school and walk into a job at the local factory/mill/plant where they eventually would earn enough to buy a home, send their kids to college and live a decent life. Whether Americans want to admit it or not they are competing in a global market. Hell even engineering jobs are being outsourced. If your aspirations are to work a blue collar gig then you have to be prepared that Juan in South American and Abu in Southwest Asia will do your job for a lot less. Combine that with the U.S. having the highest corporate taxes in the world and the prospect of a burgeoning middle class re-emerging in the U.S. isn't likely. Of course with the way we Yanks like to sue each other we can never have enough lawyers. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Ghost

To the people involved in the protests, they matter. Are they significant?

About as significant as a British citizen, who currently lives in Korea, talking politics on a boxing forum, with a hard on against the US.

Not really.

JMO

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I have nothing against the citizens of the United States and only wish them well, but there is no escaping the fact that middle America has been systematically taken apart for well over 30 years. And this is planned and deliberate. So, because I am British and live overseas, that automatically means that I should have no viewpoints about international politics and should certainly abstain from any opinions concerning the country effectively rules the world? Damn the BBC for covering the Libya crisis too, eh?

Once again you respond with nothing more than snide little comments. Whatever floats your boat.

---

It doesn't mean you can't have any viewpoints but be warned that people in the US will not take you seriously when you don't have any experience of what middle America is besides reading about it in news articles or being a foreign tourist that visited America for a few days or few weeks. So there are people that will not take you seriously.

Just like I don't like it when Americans talk about other countries that they have really no knowledge about besides at the most reading about the situation in news articles or just visiting that country for a few weeks as some tourist. Domestic issues of other countries let people that live there talk about it, because they know more of what goes on than some outsider.

And furthermore the US is a big place, middle America in California would be different than say middle America in North Dakota. It's not entirely the same and solutions of 1 size fits all is pretty lame.

And BTW, talking about some's country middle class is entirely another country's domestic issue not what I would call "international politics." In fact you know nothing about the situation here, hence why you are starting a thread entitled, "Are these US protests significant?"

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I know little about the current protests, but I know quite a lot about the actions of the US government which have been systematically carried out for many decades. In that regard, I am probably more qualified than many American's to comment on recent US political activity, both domestic and international.

Generally speaking I am a person that follows issues, but as I have said previously, for the last few weeks, I have fallen out of usual patterns of behaviour. That is why I wanted to know what people in the US know of these protests. I know America is slightly larger than Mexico, but the TV news is national and informs everybody in much the same way. I was hoping to know something on those lines.

It is wrong for people to say that I hate America when it is only the corporate and political elite that I despise. I have a great affection for ordinary people no matter where they are from and that includes America too. The snide comments irritate me.

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

Not really sure what the right answer is but the American middle class has largely priced themselves out of a job. When my old man (71 yrs old) was a teenager a guy could graduate high school and walk into a job at the local factory/mill/plant where they eventually would earn enough to buy a home, send their kids to college and live a decent life. Whether Americans want to admit it or not they are competing in a global market. Hell even engineering jobs are being outsourced. If your aspirations are to work a blue collar gig then you have to be prepared that Juan in South American and Abu in Southwest Asia will do your job for a lot less. Combine that with the U.S. having the highest corporate taxes in the world and the prospect of a burgeoning middle class re-emerging in the U.S. isn't likely. Of course with the way we Yanks like to sue each other we can never have enough lawyers. :rolleyes:

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To even go to university these days will set you back at least 50-100,000 dollars. Life is so much harder now and the jobs simply aren't there. Many of those factory jobs have been outsourced to places like China and the workforce has been largely unprotected and not been prepared to adapt to these changes. It is also another reason why young people seem to be turning to the military for security. It seems to me that the country has been run dry by the corrupt financial sector and excessive military spending. We can say that ordinary people have priced themselves out of work, but in truth real wages have stagnated for many decades and we now have ordinary families NEEDING two breadwinners just to stay afloat and even then that is supplemented by endless debt and credit. The population at large has got poorer whilst the rich are richer than ever before.

It is very serious and that is why I was interested to see that protests were starting to break out and I was kind of hoping that this was in some way a small mirror of what is happening in the middle east. I have been hoping that the poor, huddled masses would start to rise for a long time and that desire is not from any desire to see suffering nor pain nor to inflict hate. It is from a basic desire for all people to have a stable means of supporting themselves and their families through this hellaciously difficult thing we call life.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Ghost

To the people involved in the protests, they matter. Are they significant?

About as significant as a British citizen, who currently lives in Korea, talking politics on a boxing forum, with a hard on against the US.

Not really.

JMO

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I have nothing against the citizens of the United States and only wish them well, but there is no escaping the fact that middle America has been systematically taken apart for well over 30 years. And this is planned and deliberate. So, because I am British and live overseas, that automatically means that I should have no viewpoints about international politics and should certainly abstain from any opinions concerning the country effectively rules the world? Damn the BBC for covering the Libya crisis too, eh?

Once again you respond with nothing more than snide little comments. Whatever floats your boat.

---

It doesn't mean you can't have any viewpoints but be warned that people in the US will not take you seriously when you don't have any experience of what middle America is besides reading about it in news articles or being a foreign tourist that visited America for a few days or few weeks. So there are people that will not take you seriously.

Just like I don't like it when Americans talk about other countries that they have really no knowledge about besides at the most reading about the situation in news articles or just visiting that country for a few weeks as some tourist. Domestic issues of other countries let people that live there talk about it, because they know more of what goes on than some outsider.

And furthermore the US is a big place, middle America in California would be different than say middle America in North Dakota. It's not entirely the same and solutions of 1 size fits all is pretty lame.

And BTW, talking about some's country middle class is entirely another country's domestic issue not what I would call "international politics." In fact you know nothing about the situation here, hence why you are starting a thread entitled, "Are these US protests significant?"

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I know little about the current protests, but I know quite a lot about the actions of the US government which have been systematically carried out for many decades. In that regard, I am probably more qualified than many American's to comment on recent US political activity, both domestic and international.

Generally speaking I am a person that follows issues, but as I have said previously, for the last few weeks, I have fallen out of usual patterns of behaviour. That is why I wanted to know what people in the US know of these protests. I know America is slightly larger than Mexico, but the TV news is national and informs everybody in much the same way. I was hoping to know something on those lines.

It is wrong for people to say that I hate America when it is only the corporate and political elite that I despise. I have a great affection for ordinary people no matter where they are from and that includes America too. The snide comments irritate me.

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Is that so? I live in California. You mind telling me what the domestic issues are right here in Caifornia? Can you do it without reading some news article? The point being you are not qualified or have ever lived here in the US to comment about our domestic issues (in any state) regarding jobs, immigration be it legal or illegal, health care, education, unions, the middle class, etc. And I find it really arrogant of you to say you would know more about these issues than the actual people living here.

But of course we live in the era of the internet, where from Google University any Tom, Dick, or Harry can become an "expert" in many fields of topics with a $20 dollar per month internet service.;);D

BTW, someone here hit the nail on the head about the situation here in general with regards to outsourcing jobs and skilled Americans be it white (some professions) or blue collar not getting the jobs because the companies prefer to hire someone whether here legally or illegally because they will work for less and sometimes without benefits. An example would be a place like that of Silicon Valley up in northern California that has many recent East Asian immigrants working there and that it's pretty hard to get a job even if you have a B.S. in say computer science because those immigrants are working for a lot less and most likely less benefits or any at all. I think at this time with a harsh economy the US does need to address the immigration issue, because when a graduate (someone I know) from some top school like UCLA with a B.S. in computer science can't get a job than it really is a major problem.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Ghost

To the people involved in the protests, they matter. Are they significant?

About as significant as a British citizen, who currently lives in Korea, talking politics on a boxing forum, with a hard on against the US.

Not really.

JMO

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I have nothing against the citizens of the United States and only wish them well, but there is no escaping the fact that middle America has been systematically taken apart for well over 30 years. And this is planned and deliberate. So, because I am British and live overseas, that automatically means that I should have no viewpoints about international politics and should certainly abstain from any opinions concerning the country effectively rules the world? Damn the BBC for covering the Libya crisis too, eh?

Once again you respond with nothing more than snide little comments. Whatever floats your boat.

---

It doesn't mean you can't have any viewpoints but be warned that people in the US will not take you seriously when you don't have any experience of what middle America is besides reading about it in news articles or being a foreign tourist that visited America for a few days or few weeks. So there are people that will not take you seriously.

Just like I don't like it when Americans talk about other countries that they have really no knowledge about besides at the most reading about the situation in news articles or just visiting that country for a few weeks as some tourist. Domestic issues of other countries let people that live there talk about it, because they know more of what goes on than some outsider.

And furthermore the US is a big place, middle America in California would be different than say middle America in North Dakota. It's not entirely the same and solutions of 1 size fits all is pretty lame.

And BTW, talking about some's country middle class is entirely another country's domestic issue not what I would call "international politics." In fact you know nothing about the situation here, hence why you are starting a thread entitled, "Are these US protests significant?"

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I know little about the current protests, but I know quite a lot about the actions of the US government which have been systematically carried out for many decades. In that regard, I am probably more qualified than many American's to comment on recent US political activity, both domestic and international.

Generally speaking I am a person that follows issues, but as I have said previously, for the last few weeks, I have fallen out of usual patterns of behaviour. That is why I wanted to know what people in the US know of these protests. I know America is slightly larger than Mexico, but the TV news is national and informs everybody in much the same way. I was hoping to know something on those lines.

It is wrong for people to say that I hate America when it is only the corporate and political elite that I despise. I have a great affection for ordinary people no matter where they are from and that includes America too. The snide comments irritate me.

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Is that so? I live in California. You mind telling me what the domestic issues are right here in Caifornia? Can you do it without reading some news article? The point being you are not qualified or have ever lived here in the US to comment about our domestic issues (in any state) regarding jobs, immigration be it legal or illegal, health care, education, unions, the middle class, etc. And I find it really arrogant of you to say you would know more about these issues than the actual people living here.

But of course we live in the era of the internet, where from Google University any Tom, Dick, or Harry can become an "expert" in many fields of topics with a $20 dollar per month internet service.;);D

BTW, someone here hit the nail on the head about the situation here in general with regards to outsourcing jobs and skilled Americans be it white (some professions) or blue collar not getting the jobs because the companies prefer to hire someone whether here legally or illegally because they will work for less and sometimes without benefits. An example would be a place like that of Silicon Valley up in northern California that has many recent East Asian immigrants working there and that it's pretty hard to get a job even if you have a B.S. in say computer science because those immigrants are working for a lot less and most likely less benefits or any at all. I think at this time with a harsh economy the US does need to address the immigration issue, because when a graduate (someone I know) from some top school like UCLA with a B.S. in computer science can't get a job than it really is a major problem.

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Get serious for a minute. Are you telling me that Kid Thunder knows more about US national politics than I do? Heck, you probably know more about British politics than my mother does. I wouldn't call you arrogant though, I would just say that you are more clued up. I don't even live in the UK and haven't for nigh on a decade, but I know that I am more aware than most British people when it comes to national politics. You can call it arrogance, but I call it taking an active interest and yes a lot of that comes from interacting with a computer. And for sure when it comes to individual states I am not so adept. Obviously when it comes to the internal frissions of your own state I expect you would know considerably more than I do. As an outsider looking in, I do alright though. I know that many states are carrying significant levels of debt and that in turn is causing considerable problems. California is looking extremely dicey right now.

Everyone thinks unions are some kind of White Knights or something...They don't really go with the Capitalism theme though do they? Alot of people in unions tend to work less and get paid more, which is also in correlation to the amount of dues they have paid. The best workers don't get the job, senority does. Some unions are good, the ones that go against big corporations to get better working conditions/pay when it's necessary. Some just milk their members and even try to influence them politically as to how they should vote etc..... alot of corruption. It's not always standing up for the little guy.

I should have done what I usually do when I want to find out something....turn to Chomsky. That's how busy I have been, I haven't even seen this and I usually listen to everything the great man says! Shame on me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFRadCGY_ao&NR=1

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Originally Posted by No Contest

Everyone thinks unions are some kind of White Knights or something...They don't really go with the Capitalism theme though do they? Alot of people in unions tend to work less and get paid more, which is also in correlation to the amount of dues they have paid. The best workers don't get the job, senority does. Some unions are good, the ones that go against big corporations to get better working conditions/pay when it's necessary. Some just milk their members and even try to influence them politically as to how they should vote etc..... alot of corruption. It's not always standing up for the little guy.

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That's the point of unions though, isn't it (or at least the ostensible reason for their existence)? They are supposed to serve as a buffer against the inherently exploitative nature of capitalism. Now, I would certainly agree that many (perhaps even most?) unions don't serve that purpose anymore and are - as VictorCharlie describes - basically a racket, but I think their original purpose was noble and necessary.

I can't really speak to the current situation in the States, but here in B.C. there are basically two powers which enslave our politicians: big labour and big business, and neither have the best interests of the citizenry at heart.

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Originally Posted by miles

I should have done what I usually do when I want to find out something....turn to Chomsky. That's how busy I have been, I haven't even seen this and I usually listen to everything the great man says! Shame on me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFRadCGY_ao&NR=1

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All i have to say to Noam Chomsky is calm the fuck down ...jeez quit yelling so much:p...hehe, he's about to keel over, then what are you gonna do Miles, where will you go for validation?

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Ghost

To the people involved in the protests, they matter. Are they significant?

About as significant as a British citizen, who currently lives in Korea, talking politics on a boxing forum, with a hard on against the US.

Not really.

JMO

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I have nothing against the citizens of the United States and only wish them well, but there is no escaping the fact that middle America has been systematically taken apart for well over 30 years. And this is planned and deliberate. So, because I am British and live overseas, that automatically means that I should have no viewpoints about international politics and should certainly abstain from any opinions concerning the country effectively rules the world? Damn the BBC for covering the Libya crisis too, eh?

Once again you respond with nothing more than snide little comments. Whatever floats your boat.

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What the BBC covers or does not, concerns me little. I am not British, nor do I care if the Queens farts in the middle of the street or in the middle of Buck House. Nor do I care about the "internal politics" of England or any other country, except for Australia, where I am currently living.

As for the rest of your post, that is your opinion, which correct me if I am wrong, no-body is stopping you from posting. But, by the way you react, you would deny me my right to voice my opinion on your posts.

I am getting so tired of hearing people from other countries, blaming the US for all their troubles. How about you get in the face of your government and tell them to cut all ties with US. See how fast you get laughed out of the office you might be in.

That's right, you'r not in England, you are in Korea.

As for Noam Chomsky, do not know him, never watched his shows, never heard his spiel. But if being on TV or You Tube means a person has more "weight" with their opinion. No problem. Can have a You Tube video up and running in about an hour on the "Benefits of Cake Eating" in the British Isles.

Oh before I forget, I am/was classed as middle class, blue and white collar worker, owned my own house, car and paid all my bills on time, all with out help from the US government or the English Crown.

I know what middle America is and what it means. Did not learn it from TV or You Tube. I lived it.

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

Not really sure what the right answer is but the American middle class has largely priced themselves out of a job. When my old man (71 yrs old) was a teenager a guy could graduate high school and walk into a job at the local factory/mill/plant where they eventually would earn enough to buy a home, send their kids to college and live a decent life. Whether Americans want to admit it or not they are competing in a global market. Hell even engineering jobs are being outsourced. If your aspirations are to work a blue collar gig then you have to be prepared that Juan in South American and Abu in Southwest Asia will do your job for a lot less. Combine that with the U.S. having the highest corporate taxes in the world and the prospect of a burgeoning middle class re-emerging in the U.S. isn't likely. Of course with the way we Yanks like to sue each other we can never have enough lawyers. :rolleyes:

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Well one thing that really chaps my ass is the price of college. Now'a'days you can't get a good job without a college education, but the prices have skyrocketed and continue to do so. Whenever we hear about "price gouging" its always about gasoline prices, and NEVER about college tuition and why is that......because of the God Damned liberals, that's why!

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

I'm not a fan of Obama, but you know what I find hilarious? It's that a lot of people are blaming Obama for the multiple wars and the economic crises that he inherited. Like I said people have selective memory on who was president during the economic turmoil and the wars that the US is currently in.

That is all, you an argue among yourselves.

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I'm probably the least knowledgeable person on such subjects, but to be fair, didn't Obama keep in all of the retards (aka financial controllers/experts) who blindly let (lead) the country into a gigantic economic meltdown?

Likes Miles said, there are probably 1000's of fraud cases, each one on an enormous scale, that just get let go.... The super and mega and even reasonably wealthy in America are above everything... That should be enough to make any everyday American furious...

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Originally Posted by Dizaster

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

I'm not a fan of Obama, but you know what I find hilarious? It's that a lot of people are blaming Obama for the multiple wars and the economic crises that he inherited. Like I said people have selective memory on who was president during the economic turmoil and the wars that the US is currently in.

That is all, you an argue among yourselves.

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I'm probably the least knowledgeable person on such subjects, but to be fair, didn't Obama keep in all of the retards (aka financial controllers/experts) who blindly let (lead) the country into a gigantic economic meltdown?

Likes Miles said, there are probably 1000's of fraud cases, each one on an enormous scale, that just get let go.... The super and mega and even reasonably wealthy in America are above everything... That should be enough to make any everyday American furious...

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He basically got everyone that had been there before under Clinton....HOPE AND CHANGE....totally what we got, we're still Hoping the economy will get better and all we've got left in our pockets is Change

Does anybody remember the Perot/Gore debate of 1993? The consensus was that Perot made a fool of himself and that Gore won the debate handily, and now, it seems, most of what Perot was "babbling" about has come true.
There is certainly something very wrong in this country; the richest, most productive nation ever has an astounding number living below the poverty level, a rich/poor gap on par with that of China, and is bankrupt on every level from the federal government on down to the millions in foreclosure. This is nothing new as it has been an ongoing thing for at least as long as I've been alive. Our 'leadership' is guilty of one of two things: gross and utter incompetence, or of being venal, corrupt and greedy.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Does anybody remember the Perot/Gore debate of 1993? The consensus was that Perot made a fool of himself and that Gore won the debate handily, and now, it seems, most of what Perot was "babbling" about has come true.
There is certainly something very wrong in this country; the richest, most productive nation ever has an astounding number living below the poverty level, a rich/poor gap on par with that of China, and is bankrupt on every level from the federal government on down to the millions in foreclosure. This is nothing new as it has been an ongoing thing for at least as long as I've been alive. Our 'leadership' is guilty of one of two things: gross and utter incompetence, or of being venal, corrupt and greedy.

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Perot got a lot of things right, but he also got some things wrong as well. The way he was portrayed in the media was grossly mishandled as well, his Vice Presidential pick was given 0 respect when all he did wrong was be bad on tv. He was a verteran and a POW that served his time in the Hanoi Hilton (along with Sen. John McCain) he was also a professor at Stanford but he was given 0 respect at all. Perot was wrong on thinking that the US given the size of our economy could be completely and totally isolationist....he was correct on Iraq though.


Al Gore is a lying sack of dog shit but he makes up for it by being pompus and dull.

1 thing I find utterly funny Lyle is that you blame the left or liberals for all of the US problems but choose to ignore what guys like Reagan and Bush jr. also had a fine hand in it. Like I said selective memory. ;)
Shit wasn't all rosy under those guys leading the nation that's for damn sure.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

1 thing I find utterly funny Lyle is that you blame the left or liberals for all of the US problems but choose to ignore what guys like Reagan and Bush jr. also had a fine hand in it. Like I said selective memory. ;)
Shit wasn't all rosy under those guys leading the nation that's for damn sure.

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True but you cannot doubt that Reagan was a LEADER, he was held accountable. As for Bush, I think the Republicans really went off the tracks fairly quickly re: the social issues after he was elected...under Clinton the Republican run House and Senate did a lot of good, but Ol' Slick Willy gets the credit....that and people just happen to forget the ".com" bubble that hit right before W took office and yes he did turn the economy back around after a recession.

Lyle, you live in cloud cuckoo land. The US has been systematically assaulted for a good 30 years. It doesn't matter which party it is, they have all brought about the same thing. A weakened middle class. Party politics is bankrupt. Big business owns them all and they will continue to assault people until there is nothing left. They want America to be like Mexico.

There has definitely been an assault on the American people, either that or it has been an accident and our "best and brightest" are absolute ninnies. My whole life it was important to keep the dollar strong against other currencies. Until 2000 when, suddenly, the strategy became to devalue the dollar. I'm no economist, but it seems to me that that is destructive to the financial status of just about everybody in this country, excluding those the either own multi-national corporations or that have access to unlimited supplies of money.
In 1980, I was a 'believer' and a high school senior and I worked as a volunteer for the Reagan team in the election. In the primary, he campaigned on a promise to eliminate the influence of the Council on Foreign Relations/ Tri-Lateral Commission from government, and then he made Bush (a TLC and CFR member) vice-president and appointed 81 of them to high positions. He, in essence, put in control of this country a group that he had denounced for favoring the interest of international bankers and MNCs over those of the American people. He signed off on the largest tax hike in US history, and, despite his claims of being against 'big-government', the size and scope of the Federal government exploded while he was in office. He was a pretty good public speaker, and he worked well in front of the camera. And it was during his 8 years that we became a debtor nation.
For many many years we've bought into this notion of trickle down economics, which I prefer to call slop the hog economics. Because that's what it is: keep feeding the pig and what ever overflows the trough is yours, providing the hog doesn't inhale that and you, too. How anybody ever thought that running a country for the benefit of 1% and to the detriment of the other 99% was a good, sustainable idea escapes me.

The meteoric rise in college tuition is a problem. We have convinced ourselves that it is a good measuring tool when for the most part industries would be much better off requiring just an Associates and having their own job training. There needs to be a lot more vocational training and not just for blue collar type jobs. Health care, housing prices and college tuition all have something in common. All have been heavily subsidized and b/c of this have increased in price far outpacing inflation. When we pull the government titty our of University's mouth and make them be much more competitive with both choice and quality then the price will have to come down.

My sister has two daughters (16 months, and one any day now) and her financial advisor told her that, to have any hope of sending them to college, she needs to contribute a minimum of $1000per month, each, starting now. Fortunatley she is a vice-president at a major corporation and her husband is an engineer, but how the hell can the majority ever hope to pay that freight?

Greynotsoold,

Either you have arrived recently or our posting paths have not crossed in the past but nice to meet you. I'm the boards resident American war mongerer who enjoys raping and pillaging third world countries in my spare time. No but seriously, I've enjoyed reading your posts lately. Cheers.