Rocky Marciano's punching power

I think I posted this up YEARS ago... It was from an old GeoCites page that unfortunately no longer exists. However, here you go...
***Edit **** Just found the page on Angelfire: http://www.angelfire.com/dragon2/pow.../marciano.html

Rocky Marciano
43 ko;s in 49 fights
88 percent ko ratio

"Why waltz 10 rounds with an opponent if you can KO him in one?" Rocky Marciano.

It is the Knock Out that excites boxing fans, as much as the Grand Slam in baseball. The power puncher who can take out an opponent with one savage blow at any time in the fight is always going to make for an interesting fight. There have been great sluggers in boxing; Dempsey, Louis, Foreman, Sugar Ray Robinson, Archie Moore, to name a few of the best.
The Ring magazine rates the best punchers on the criteria of those who can knock out quality opponents even in the later rounds, and who can knock out heavier opposition. Of the heavywieghts, the September 1997 issue of The Ring rated the three best punchers as Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, and Rocky Marciano.
Of Marciano they said,"He never sought refuge in a clinch, never tired, and couldn't be hurt....He was an unstoppable force, breaking bodies and spirits. It was a hellish experiance to fight him...Like Dempsey and Louis, he was able to get his whole body into a punch."

When Marciano was destroying all challengers with his blockbuster assault, the U.S. Testing Co. was asked to measure the power of Rocky's wallop. Its findings:
"Marciano's knockout blow packs more explosive energy than an armour-piercing bullet and represents as much energy as would be required to spot lift 1000 pounds one foot off the ground." Boxing Illustrated December 1963
Bert Sugar (Foremost Boxing Historian):
"As indestructible as any fighter in history, Marciano walked into-and through- thousands of hard, clean, jolting shots in the manner of a human steamroller, wrecking his opponents with baseball-bat swings to the arms, the midsection, the head, and just about anything else in reach. Always ready to take two or three punches to land one, the determined Marciano melted down the guards of his opponents, and with the shortest arms in the history of the heavyweight division, hewed them down to size." He said of Marciano's right hand power punch, called the "Suzie-Q", "It was one of the most devastating weapons ever brought into a ring."

Where Did the Power Come From?

How does a 187 pound man hit harder than a 200+ pound man when both are trained fighters? There's an axiom in boxing that says "You can’t teach power. Either a fighter is born with it or not." Hundreds and hundreds of fighters have proven it to be true. One heavyweight is a formidable knockout artist while another rarely hurts an opponent and must win by points, even though they might be identical in height, weight, and the size of their muscles.

Part of it lies in how a fighter sets himself when he delivers his blow. A pure boxer stylist will be on his toes, mobile, with little contact with the floor when he hits. The force of his impact comes from his arms and shoulders only. But a slugger, a Jim Jefferies, Joe Louis, Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, or Marciano, will plant his feet flat as he punches, using the floor for leverage to get more of his body weight behind the punch.

Another part is "commitment to the punch". The fighter who is worried about a counter blow is going to hold something back. He wants to be able to block the counter punch if it comes. But, the fighter who has no fear of retaliation, who accepts that he might get hit in return and couldn’t care less, will put everything into the punch. Marciano knew before he stepped into the ring that he would get hit a lot during the course of the fight. He accepted it beforehand and didn’t let it interfere with his intention to bang away at his opponent. When Rocky let go he was totally committed to the punch, putting every ounce of energy and body weight into every punch.

Marciano’s incredible power began in his feet as they pushed off the mat. The energy was fed by his thick, muscular legs, the swivel of his hips, and the twist he’d put into his upper body as he snapped forward his arm and fist.

Where the power came from might be best illustrated in a letter I received from a doctor who works with internal medical problems and trauma. He told me this: "Now what determines the power of a punch? I mean the formula… The effect of a punch is calculated by the energy applied at the sight of the hit. So the kinetic energy of Marciano's punch, that is the degree of damage the punch would generate, is equal to 1/2 mass x velocity x velocity (1/2mv2). Rocky's was equal to the mass of the arm plus the weight he shoved forward with body weight. Next, he hit in close. As your arm moves forward the time from beginning to end increases as you increase the distance of the thrown punch. Since velocity = feet per sec, that means the longer the range the less velocity. Now the energy generated is, remember, mass times vel x vel. Well if your punches are so much shorter, traveling only a few inches, your velocity is incredible! And the transmitted energy at impact is enormous! That calculation of energy is the destructive force (damage) to the body. Basically he broke his opponents up inside. Had George Foreman been a swarmer, he would have been a better fighter. He was a slugger. But as strong as he was he hit from too far away. Frazier was not as powerful as Marciano. He had a similar style, but didn't hit as hard (didn't use shifting weight, etc)."

This generation of power to the point of impact was described by boxing writer Nat Tashman in the July 1986 issue of Boxing Beat:
"Considering the weight advantage Rocky gave away to opponents, few seem to know the key to his power. Fully believing in his ability to take a punch and confident he couldn’t be knocked out, he’d wade in to position himself as close as he could get. Then, like lifting a weight, he’d plant his muscular, stumpy legs and thighs, and swivel-hip his punch. At that point, he was delivering his full 187 pound, adrenaline-loaded wallop for the lights-out contact."

What boxers and sports writers said of Marciano's punching power:

His Opponents:
Joe Louis, knocked out by Rocky in the 8th round, said of Marciano, "It hurt to bump into him....He hits harder than Max Schmeling...this kid is tough enough to beat anyone."
He also said, "The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bone crushers."

Jersey Joe Walcott, who lost his title to Marciano in a 13th round KO and a rematch in a 1st round KO, was asked who hit harder, Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano. "Joe could take you out with combinations...Marciano was a one-punch artist. He threw every punch like you throw a baseball, as hard as he could. I have to say, with all respect to Joe, Marciano hit harder."

Ezzard Charles "Rocky numbs you all over. Wherever he hits you, he hurts you; on the arms, the shoulders, the neck and the head."

Archie Moore (KO'd in 9th), when asked by reporters which of Marciano's punches hurt him, said, "Man they all hurt."
He also said, "After a fight with Marciano, it felt like you had been beat all over the upper body with a blackjack or hit with rocks."
"He could hurt you, sure, but it was the quantity of his punches. He just had more stamina than anyone else in those days. He was like a bull with gloves."

Roland LaStarza "I would throw a hard punch, then he would throw a hard punch. The difference was that Rocky would throw 10 more. He just never stopped throwing punches."

Harry "Kid" Matthews "He was a great puncher, one of the best of all-time. He just threw one punch after another, and all of them were hard."

"Dan, I can still feel his punches. He kept punching me in the upper arms until I could no longer hold them up to defend or throw punches". Phil Muscato, 5th round KO victim of Rocky, to his nephew Dan, many years after his fight with Marciano.(Thanks to Dan Muscato).

Bernie Reynolds (1952 opponent) "He had amazing strength. Any time Marciano hit you, he could hurt you. He didn't do much flicking; every punch was a knockout punch."

Other Fighters and Boxing Experts:
Floyd Patterson, who knocked out Moore for Rocky's vacated title said, "In the ring he looked sloppy and awkward sometimes, but that was deceptive because he was terribly strong, could punch and take a punch...Jersey Joe Walcott had made him miss for twelve rounds and then Rocky took his title away in the thirteenth. Ezzard Charles seemed to be making him look bad, but Rocky busted up his face something horrible...I respected Marciano"

Jack Dempsey, interviewed in the 1953 fall edition of Fight magazine said, "What everyone forgets is that Marciano can punch harder with a right hand than any modern-day heavyweight. In his first fight with Walcott, Rocky needed only one blow to win the title. The power in his right scrambled Jersey Joe's brains at Chicago."
"I've scored my share of knockouts along the way, but more often than not my opponents got up after being knocked down and had to be knocked down repeatedly. The same is true of Joe Louis. But Marciano needs only one solid smash and it's all over.
That's why I say Rocky Marciano is the hardest-hitting heavyweight champion I have seen."

Carmine Basilio "Today he’d look like a midget against some of those heavyweights around, but he’d clobber them all. A great fighter, very tough."

Jack Hurley, Harry "Kid" Matthew's manager, "I never saw a fighter so confident, so sure every punch he was throwing was the knockout."

Tommy Loughran (Light heavyweight champion 1927-29) "He is great by accident, or maybe instinct. He moves in and belts you, and wallops you, and moves away, and all by instinct. Then Rocky comes up with that hook, and his whole body is behind it. You have to class him with Jack Dempsey. When the fight started, Dempsey had only one thought-to knock you out. That's Marciano's instinct."

"Marciano's gloved fists broke blood vessels and bones in LaStarza's arms and elbows. First the arms grew heavy, then they began to ache awfully, then they grew numb. As the relentless battle wore on, LaStarza found it harder and harder to raise his arms, much less jab with them or punch with them. His hands lowered, his defense dissipated, Marciano began to punish him about the head. LaStarza began to take a terrible beating." Bill Libby, "The Story of a Champion", 1971.

Fred Brown said, "He hits you with something that looks like a little tap to the crowd, but the guy who gets it shakes right down to his legs."

"A right hand that registered nine on the Richter scale." Red Smith, New York Times sports columnist.

"He's the hardest hitting fighter I've ever seen. After one of his knockouts, I never take my eye off his victims till they move again." Bill Corum, sports writer.

"Rocky Marciano was probably the most ferocious man ever to win the title, and the most relentless." Ebony magazine.

"Why? His man's not that tall." Bugs Baer's reply when Don Cockell's manager requested a 20 foot ring instead of 16 foot.

"Louis is faster with a barrage of punches, but Rocky hurts more with one punch than Joe did with four. Rocky hurts you every time he connects." Response to a reporter from a sparring partner of both Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano.

"He was chastised by the press every time he fought as being a Neanderthal, no concept of boxing, who was going to get beat as soon as he got in with someone who could box, who was gonna make him look silly…It took a long time for the boxing scribes to realize they were in the presence of sheer power." Ferdie Pacheco

Absolutely awesome post, man. Thank you so much.

Yeah, there's something otherworldly about Marciano, I always knew it, these quotes just reinforce my belief.

Rocky's power came from what they said: every twist and connected movement from toes to the punch's impact multiplied the power. A tiny extra twist at the hip, or an extra 5 degrees of a turn of the forearm upon impact, all these things I believe exponentially increased Marciano's power. Thing is, he did it naturally. He was just a natural born puncher.

Another point rarely discussed is tendon and ligament strength. Muscles arent the only thing giving power. In fact, if a muscle is overly strong compared to the strength of a tendon, the tendon can tear. So Marciano had tremendous ligament and tendon strength as well as muscle power.

These clowns nowadays---Lennox Lewis, Klitschkos, Riddick Bowe, David Haye, etc--- if they had to take a Marciano right to the kidney or spleen, it would be Good Night Irene.

Everybody knows it, but they wanna keep talkin trash about Marciano. Oh 1 last expert on Marciano, Muhammad Ali, was often quoted as saying that he couldn't believe how strong, and how hard Rocky could hit. He said he could feel how great Marciano must have been just from being in the ring with him when he was 45 while filming the computer fight. Ali said that he couldn't even imagine what Rocky must have been like in his prime. He also said his arms were hurting for a few days just from Marciano's "pulled" punches during the filming.

I only see George Foreman being too big for Marciano to beat. I think Rocky would outlast Liston, having a better chin and being better in stamina, and Liston would have a tough time hitting Rocky in that crouch. If Ali's phantom punch could do all that damage to Liston, imagine what a Suzie-Q would do.

Rocky was a power puncher in his era , fighting guys around the 13 -14 stone mark , but lets not think for a minute that he would have lived with a Lewis or a Klitchko , in his time he was great.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Rocky was a power puncher in his era , fighting guys around the 13 -14 stone mark , but lets not think for a minute that he would have lived with a Lewis or a Klitchko , in his time he was great.

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Agreed mate.

Roger Bannister did a 4 minute mile, but he wouldn't beat Hicham El Guerrouj in they raced. Things evolve, things change. We, as humans are a different species. Rocky Marciano would be small to average Cruiserweight today (great as he was)

Dempsey and Marciano were about the same size. Jess Willard was 6'6" and Dempsey certainly hurt him.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Dempsey and Marciano were about the same size. Jess Willard was 6'6" and Dempsey certainly hurt him.

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Come on Grey, Jess Willard!!! Primo Carnera was 10ft tall, but he was shit as well. ;D I'm talking about size + ability i.e Klitchko! I'm not saying Marciano couldn't beat a 6ft 8 guy that was just walking down the road.

I'm just saying that, if he hit him, he could hurt him. As to who I think would win...

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

I'm just saying that, if he hit him, he could hurt him. As to who I think would win...

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Fair one. I don't think I'd like to get hi by Suzie Q lol

Rocky Marciano was amazing in a couple of aspects...

#1 Total comitment to his power...I've never seen ANYONE throw their whole body behind so many punches and have so much success.

#2 Balance...sure Rocky got dropped a few times, sure he got countered, but to put so much behind his punches get countered and still win 49 of 49 fights is nothing short of unbelieveable especially given that more than a few of the guys he fought were crafty enough to where their skill alone would have been enough to batter Rocky if all he was was just your run of the mill simple minded plonding power puncher.


#3 Stamina...to put so much into his punches and to take so many shots and to still have the power to detonate that right hand on Walcott after Joe's best round is amazing...to batter LaStarza into submission without really focusing on where the punches landed just how hard they landed....that's amazing.


Rocky Marciano will never be confused with Sugar Ray Robinson or Willie Pep but he was a very special, one of a kind fighter.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Dempsey and Marciano were about the same size. Jess Willard was 6'6" and Dempsey certainly hurt him.

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Yes we know this , but lets face it , LHW Archie Moore floored Rocky , Imagine what a left hook from one of the brothers grim would do to him.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Rocky Marciano was amazing in a couple of aspects...

#1 Total comitment to his power...I've never seen ANYONE throw their whole body behind so many punches and have so much success.

#2 Balance...sure Rocky got dropped a few times, sure he got countered, but to put so much behind his punches get countered and still win 49 of 49 fights is nothing short of unbelieveable especially given that more than a few of the guys he fought were crafty enough to where their skill alone would have been enough to batter Rocky if all he was was just your run of the mill simple minded plonding power puncher.


#3 Stamina...to put so much into his punches and to take so many shots and to still have the power to detonate that right hand on Walcott after Joe's best round is amazing...to batter LaStarza into submission without really focusing on where the punches landed just how hard they landed....that's amazing.


Rocky Marciano will never be confused with Sugar Ray Robinson or Willie Pep but he was a very special, one of a kind fighter.

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:coolclick: Lyle

Dark Lord Al, the sisters won't be able to land such shot. Archie was genius in countering, effective punching and i am not sure that he punches lighter. And as Archie said it was really difficult to land left hook on Rocky. When he says so this is the case! Technically we can't compere the sisters with him!

This posts with being bigger makes you direct better or unbeatable boxer starts to nerv me! Why no one gives Rocky a chance? He is not smaller than Tyson or Tua, but no one says for them bah they are too smal and have no chance! We must not forget that the size is not the most important messurmant for power! Being bulked unnecessery makes you slower and destroys your stamina! As mentioned Rocky can punch as hard as the new heavyweights and can take punch as good as them! And we must not forget that he can dishes the punischment for 12 rounds! The new big guys go soft after 5 6 rounds no metter the counditoining and the inactivity!

Maybe the misconception of Rockys style comes from the modern way of boxing. All this guys boxing straight with head in the center. Yes they are all dead against the sisters because they don't box corectly! They can't move, they eat all the punches and can't punch! It doesn't come from the size but from the fondations! Rocky uses his hight and bodydistribution in his advantage. I want to see how 2+ m high man punches at about 0.9m hight with power and not knoking himself off balance!
Punching downwards is dangerous bussines! This destroys the reach and opens you for all type of counters plus the punch is not driven from the muscles!
Lets take the smal guys like Tonney and Tua. How many times do they end up beaten badly? How many times did they get hurt if not getting desperate or showing off? What does Holifield do when he is under fire? Why did Archie Moore has 221 fights and die at 85 not suffering form any mental diseases? Yes all of them know how to make themself smal ;)
I watch explicitly Joe Louis against Primo Carnera and Vitali Klitschko Vs Odlanier Solís. Both of the tall guys boxed in the same maner and Solis did land good punches! This means that Louis would have killed him! And the way that Vitali is jabing makes him sitting duck for the Suzi Q!

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Originally Posted by nikola_ganchev

Dark Lord Al, the sisters won't be able to land such shot. Archie was genius in countering, effective punching and i am not sure that he punches lighter. And as Archie said it was really difficult to land left hook on Rocky. When he says so this is the case! Technically we can't compere the sisters with him!

This posts with being bigger makes you direct better or unbeatable boxer starts to nerv me! Why no one gives Rocky a chance? He is not smaller than Tyson or Tua, but no one says for them bah they are too smal and have no chance! We must not forget that the size is not the most important messurmant for power! Being bulked unnecessery makes you slower and destroys your stamina! As mentioned Rocky can punch as hard as the new heavyweights and can take punch as good as them! And we must not forget that he can dishes the punischment for 12 rounds! The new big guys go soft after 5 6 rounds no metter the counditoining and the inactivity!

Maybe the misconception of Rockys style comes from the modern way of boxing. All this guys boxing straight with head in the center. Yes they are all dead against the sisters because they don't box corectly! They can't move, they eat all the punches and can't punch! It doesn't come from the size but from the fondations! Rocky uses his hight and bodydistribution in his advantage. I want to see how 2+ m high man punches at about 0.9m hight with power and not knoking himself off balance!
Punching dawnwards is dangerous bussines! This destroys the reach and opens you for all type of counters plus the punch is not driven from the muscles!
Lets take the smal guys like Tonney and Tua. How many times do they end up beaten badly? How many times did they get hurt if not getting desperate or showing off? What does Holifield do when he is under fire? Why did Archie Moore has 221 fights and die at 85 not suffering form any mental diseases? Yes all of them know how to make themself smal ;)
I watch explicitly Joe Louis against Primo Carnera and Vitali Klitschko Vs Odlanier Solís. Both of the tall guys boxed in the same maner and Solis did land good punches! This means that Louis would have killed him! And the way that Vitali is jabing makes him sitting duck for the Suzi Q!

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You are floored in your views , but thats cool , Moore wasnt the only guy to hit Rocky easily , plus you are comparing a 39 years old Vitali to a prime Rocky , or didnt you
think before you posted ?
How about a 39 year old rocky v 39 year old Vitali ? you see my point.

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Originally Posted by nikola_ganchev

Dark Lord Al, the sisters won't be able to land such shot. Archie was genius in countering, effective punching and i am not sure that he punches lighter. And as Archie said it was really difficult to land left hook on Rocky. When he says so this is the case! Technically we can't compere the sisters with him!

This posts with being bigger makes you direct better or unbeatable boxer starts to nerv me! Why no one gives Rocky a chance? He is not smaller than Tyson or Tua, but no one says for them bah they are too smal and have no chance! We must not forget that the size is not the most important messurmant for power! Being bulked unnecessery makes you slower and destroys your stamina! As mentioned Rocky can punch as hard as the new heavyweights and can take punch as good as them! And we must not forget that he can dishes the punischment for 12 rounds! The new big guys go soft after 5 6 rounds no metter the counditoining and the inactivity!

Maybe the misconception of Rockys style comes from the modern way of boxing. All this guys boxing straight with head in the center. Yes they are all dead against the sisters because they don't box corectly! They can't move, they eat all the punches and can't punch! It doesn't come from the size but from the fondations! Rocky uses his hight and bodydistribution in his advantage. I want to see how 2+ m high man punches at about 0.9m hight with power and not knoking himself off balance!
Punching downwards is dangerous bussines! This destroys the reach and opens you for all type of counters plus the punch is not driven from the muscles!
Lets take the smal guys like Tonney and Tua. How many times do they end up beaten badly? How many times did they get hurt if not getting desperate or showing off? What does Holifield do when he is under fire? Why did Archie Moore has 221 fights and die at 85 not suffering form any mental diseases? Yes all of them know how to make themself smal ;)
I watch explicitly Joe Louis against Primo Carnera and Vitali Klitschko Vs Odlanier Solís. Both of the tall guys boxed in the same maner and Solis did land good punches! This means that Louis would have killed him! And the way that Vitali is jabing makes him sitting duck for the Suzi Q!

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Comparing Marciano to The Klitschko's isn't comparing apples to apples

An in shape Marciano weighed 185-188...an in shape Wlad weighs about 240-244, Vitali 245-250.

Rocky was roughly 5'10....Wlad 6'6, Vitali 6'8

Rocky's reach 67" ...Wlad 81", Vitali 80"

The reasons the Klitschkos win and dominate this era is because THEY box so well, not because other fighters can't box. Vitali's defense would make it virtually impossible for Rocky to hit him with Suzy Q unless there was a step ladder in the ring.

Rocky was great (my #2 Heavyweight of ALL time with Joe Louis being #1 and Ali as #3) , but saying he would demolish today's heavyweights is foolish

Rocky was great in his time, but he's not beating any modern day great HW in a mythical matchup such as Lewis because size differential would be too much. Hell he doesn't even fill the CW limit!

In his professional prime, Rocky was about 30. And nobody hit Rocky easily: Moore Charles, Walcott, Louis, LaStarza all said, before the fight, that he was easy to hit. After, each of them said he was a defensively good fighter.
I know that nobody believes me, but being 9' taller than a guy that fights out of a pronounced crouch, leaning away from the jab/right hand ike Marciano did would not be a walk in the park. Jabbing down wil get you hit over the top, as will reaching: you have to get low like Foster did against Dick Tiger. And you don't want to get to reaching with the right hand. Marciano would also be decidedly faster and fight at a much faster pace.
aybe that size advantage would be too much, but that same size advantage could also be a liability. And size alone is no guarantee of victory.

Its ridiculous to imagine Marciano fighting guys 1 foot taller than he was, weighing 40 pounds more than he weighed, and having 15 inches reach advantage.

That's not a fair fight. Compared to Rocky, those guys are Super Heavyweights.

First of all i don't know a guy that hit Rocky easy ;) Guys that were being able to land a shot on him were real virtuos in boxing and they weren't able to land the shots with autority! We are talking about the guys like Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcot and Joe Louis. No matter of their age they were aways dangerous and as in the situation with Walcott, he got evan better.
Second i don't compare them in primes, after primes and so on. I compare them by boxing skills and physical atributes. I've picked Solis only because he was the only more notable and short boxer that Vitali has faced. In this fight you can see his abilities as boxer. You can see his technik and mistakes (which don't have to do anything with the age!)

Dark Lord Al i have some question for you. What are the advantages of taller boxer and if any how he utalize them? What are the disadvantages?

greynotsoold you are right.

5'10 with a reach of 67" vs 6'6 and a reach of 81"....that's the boxing version of the Falklands right there.

As for Rocky "not getting hit easily" Walcott tore him up in round 12 to the point where the ref was going to stop the fight the next round regardless of what Rocky did. And Joe Louis....I will tell you this, Joe Louis is HANDS DOWN the Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time....he reigned the longest in years, he defended the title the most times successfully, he's the greatest. Rocky being undefeated puts him 2nd in my book.

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Originally Posted by nikola_ganchev

First of all i don't know a guy that hit Rocky easy ;) Guys that were being able to land a shot on him were real virtuos in boxing and they weren't able to land the shots with autority! We are talking about the guys like Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcot and Joe Louis. No matter of their age they were aways dangerous and as in the situation with Walcott, he got evan better.
Second i don't compare them in primes, after primes and so on. I compare them by boxing skills and physical atributes. I've picked Solis only because he was the only more notable and short boxer that Vitali has faced. In this fight you can see his abilities as boxer. You can see his technik and mistakes (which don't have to do anything with the age!)

Dark Lord Al i have some question for you. What are the advantages of taller boxer and if any how he utalize them? What are the disadvantages?

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I'll let Al answer you, but it's not about 'height', it's about 'Size' a 185-190 guy getting hit by a 250 pound guy (and a very good 250 pound guy!!). Look at all the technical aspects as much as you like, but when he gets hit he is staying hit!

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Originally Posted by nikola_ganchev

First of all i don't know a guy that hit Rocky easy ;) Guys that were being able to land a shot on him were real virtuos in boxing and they weren't able to land the shots with autority! We are talking about the guys like Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcot and Joe Louis. No matter of their age they were aways dangerous and as in the situation with Walcott, he got evan better.
Second i don't compare them in primes, after primes and so on. I compare them by boxing skills and physical atributes. I've picked Solis only because he was the only more notable and short boxer that Vitali has faced. In this fight you can see his abilities as boxer. You can see his technik and mistakes (which don't have to do anything with the age!)

Dark Lord Al i have some question for you. What are the advantages of taller boxer and if any how he utalize them? What are the disadvantages?

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Watch Lennox Lewis Box David Tua , thats how a bigger better boxer wins a fight.
and if u think small guys have an advantage then i guess the world top ten is littered with guys under 6 foot and are 186 lbs ? is that wot u r saying ?

BIG H what you say makes absolutly no sence. From one weight up almost all guys can KO an oder guy with a single punch and this does not exclude Rocky! I will ask you something. Why big George boxed at only 99,7kg or 220 lbs? For me this is the guy with the most solid structure that i have ever seen! He can get really easy 200kg if he wishes(he was actually near this weight ;) ) Joe Louis boxed at 207 really ripped and was far from "smal" guy. The so called hardest hitting boxer Shavers boxed at 211 and he was far from the condition of Louis. He could have lost some more weight! I think you get the picture. There is no need to be gigantish in order to punch hard. Being so big like the sisters destroys the stamina no mater of the conditioning! This means unnecessery bulking is bad! You can look cool but it's not a bodybuilding competition! Rocky could have been 110/120 kg no problem with this stocky italian build, but is it neccessery? Would have this helped him punching harder or take punch better? NO! Would have this imobilized him and destoyed his working rate? YES! As i said it's not about punching power anymore, but effective punching and consistancy!
Dark Lord Al i think you haven't watch the fight in details... In this fight you see why the smal guys are not to be underrestemated! All the power punches which were landed were from Tuas side. The only thing that Lewis did was destroying Tuas frisure and clinching! It was all Tuas fout that he loosed the fight, but this is an oder subject!
What i want to say is that the skills, condition and style are playing much more bigger role than the size and after some dimentions the size don't help, but exactly the oposite is true!

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Originally Posted by nikola_ganchev

BIG H what you say makes absolutly no sence. From one weight up almost all guys can KO an oder guy with a single punch and this does not exclude Rocky! I will ask you something. Why big George boxed at only 99,7kg or 220 lbs? For me this is the guy with the most solid structure that i have ever seen! He can get really easy 200kg if he wishes(he was actually near this weight ;) ) Joe Louis boxed at 207 really ripped and was far from "smal" guy. The so called hardest hitting boxer Shavers boxed at 211 and he was far from the condition of Louis. He could have lost some more weight! I think you get the picture. There is no need to be gigantish in order to punch hard. Being so big like the sisters destroys the stamina no mater of the conditioning! This means unnecessery bulking is bad! You can look cool but it's not a bodybuilding competition! Rocky could have been 110/120 kg no problem with this stocky italian build, but is it neccessery? Would have this helped him punching harder or take punch better? NO! Would have this imobilized him and destoyed his working rate? YES! As i said it's not about punching power anymore, but effective punching and consistancy!
Dark Lord Al i think you haven't watch the fight in details... In this fight you see why the smal guys are not to be underrestemated! All the power punches which were landed were from Tuas side. The only thing that Lewis did was destroying Tuas frisure and clinching! It was all Tuas fout that he loosed the fight, but this is an oder subject!
What i want to say is that the skills, condition and style are playing much more bigger role than the size and after some dimentions the size don't help, but exactly the oposite is true!

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I agree size doesnt make you a skillful fighter , however fighters can be both big and skillful.
So i really dont see your point.

Selecting Tua/Lewis as an example only proves the point: Tua walked straight in standing straight up, maximizing his lack of ht and reach, allowing Lewis to use his jab to establish distance fairly easily. Same thing in the Botha fight, for example. Lewis was able to set the distance with that long left hand by keeping it between them.
But if the short guy makes himself shorter, a smaller target, then it is harder to keep that left hand between the two. Bob Foster did it by getting low and jabbing straight to Tiger's chest- keeping him at a difference. This is because jabbing down at a crouching opponent doesn't keep him away nearly so much as it brings him closer and gives him a better chance to punch over the top or to get inside.
Tyson's career proves this. At his peak he came in low and fast, using missed punches to create punching lanes. Against Douglas, when he got countered trying to get past the jab he started standing straight up...and eating jabs. As his career went on he stayed straight up and was just a short guy that hit harde, if he got the chance.
Personally, I have a suspicion that the huge height disparity would make for a dull fight and there would probably be few clean punches landed unless somebody got tired or frustrated and then sloppy. And certainly Marciano would feel the punches of the heavier man.
But just because a guy has a significant size advantage it does not necessarily follow that he will win, especially if the other guy knows how to use what he has as well as Marciano (or Dempsey) did. And, no the world is not littered with super talented 186 pound heavy weights, or super talented fighters in any size shape or form, because there are no longer guys like Charlie Goldman around to teach them to be smart.

As aways everything has pluses and minuses and my point here is that being smal and skillfull like Joe Louis is better than being big and skillfull like Klit. We are still peoples and for 2 generations we can't change! Being so big reduces alot of oder skills! The sisters gain some reach advantage, but what are the disadvantages? Clumsiness, no mobility, less speed, biger target and warse conditioning to name a few. And because of this my point is that Klitschkos like are in disadvantage against some one like Louis or Marciano!

greynotsoold, I am slow as ever :)

Rocky would be a cruiserweight now and he would batter all of them now and ever in the history of the division. Only Holyfiel;d stood a chance and even then I think he gets beat by Rocky.

How many of rockys opponents were fall guys and were scared of the mob? Mafia affliction was in full swing during those periods and because he wasunderfeated he can now suddenly beat the likes of lewis holyfield and the klits!? Rocky would not last 3 rounds with a prime tyson. Undefeated means nothing if your opponents are all 70%

There was never and has never been any evidence of any kind linking Marciano to organized crime, unless the assumption is that, since he was Italian...

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Originally Posted by nikola_ganchev

BIG H what you say makes absolutly no sence. From one weight up almost all guys can KO an oder guy with a single punch and this does not exclude Rocky! I will ask you something. Why big George boxed at only 99,7kg or 220 lbs? For me this is the guy with the most solid structure that i have ever seen! He can get really easy 200kg if he wishes(he was actually near this weight ;) ) Joe Louis boxed at 207 really ripped and was far from "smal" guy. The so called hardest hitting boxer Shavers boxed at 211 and he was far from the condition of Louis. He could have lost some more weight! I think you get the picture. There is no need to be gigantish in order to punch hard. Being so big like the sisters destroys the stamina no mater of the conditioning! This means unnecessery bulking is bad! You can look cool but it's not a bodybuilding competition! Rocky could have been 110/120 kg no problem with this stocky italian build, but is it neccessery? Would have this helped him punching harder or take punch better? NO! Would have this imobilized him and destoyed his working rate? YES! As i said it's not about punching power anymore, but effective punching and consistancy!
Dark Lord Al i think you haven't watch the fight in details... In this fight you see why the smal guys are not to be underrestemated! All the power punches which were landed were from Tuas side. The only thing that Lewis did was destroying Tuas frisure and clinching! It was all Tuas fout that he loosed the fight, but this is an oder subject!
What i want to say is that the skills, condition and style are playing much more bigger role than the size and after some dimentions the size don't help, but exactly the oposite is true!

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I have just ried to read your post , I would like to ask you a question .

ARE YOU KID THUNDER ?

Im sure many others compare your post to one of his ?

After swimming i hit 2000 PSI fact.

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Originally Posted by nikola_ganchev

BIG H what you say makes absolutly no sence. From one weight up almost all guys can KO an oder guy with a single punch and this does not exclude Rocky! I will ask you something. Why big George boxed at only 99,7kg or 220 lbs? For me this is the guy with the most solid structure that i have ever seen! He can get really easy 200kg if he wishes(he was actually near this weight ;) ) Joe Louis boxed at 207 really ripped and was far from "smal" guy. The so called hardest hitting boxer Shavers boxed at 211 and he was far from the condition of Louis. He could have lost some more weight! I think you get the picture. There is no need to be gigantish in order to punch hard. Being so big like the sisters destroys the stamina no mater of the conditioning! This means unnecessery bulking is bad! You can look cool but it's not a bodybuilding competition! Rocky could have been 110/120 kg no problem with this stocky italian build, but is it neccessery? Would have this helped him punching harder or take punch better? NO! Would have this imobilized him and destoyed his working rate? YES! As i said it's not about punching power anymore, but effective punching and consistancy!
Dark Lord Al i think you haven't watch the fight in details... In this fight you see why the smal guys are not to be underrestemated! All the power punches which were landed were from Tuas side. The only thing that Lewis did was destroying Tuas frisure and clinching! It was all Tuas fout that he loosed the fight, but this is an oder subject!
What i want to say is that the skills, condition and style are playing much more bigger role than the size and after some dimentions the size don't help, but exactly the oposite is true!

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Totally disagree with just about everything you say mate. Whether you accept it or not, people are just bigger now!! The average height of a man in the 60s was 5 ft 8, it is now 5 ft 11. The average weight was 166 pounds it's now 191 pounds. When I was at school I was a big tall kid at 5 ft 11. If I go in a pub now I am a midget. Rocky Marciano coulld never have been 120 Kgs without either being fat or built like Mariusz Pudzianowski. I totally accept size is not everything and I know all of the arguments about shorter fighters, look how Tyson used his height (or lack thereof) and lateral movement. But we are not talking about slight size differences. George Foreman was the biggest most fearsome sized heavyweight at 220 pounds, that's about the size of Adamnek. I'm not saying Tyson or Foreman couldn't live with today's heavyweights, but for Marciano it would be a bridge too far imo. We have even had to introduce a new division and subsequently change the max weight of that division to 205 pounds, because of the size that heavyweight boxers now are. If we were talking about 20 pounds, Marciano's ability woud bridge the gap in size. But giving away 65 pounds to a fighter like Vitali.....

As for Tua, that fight was a shut out, Lewis schooled him and Tua was probaly heavier than Lewis anyway

As a matter of fact i am ;)

Nah you're German ;)

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by nikola_ganchev

BIG H what you say makes absolutly no sence. From one weight up almost all guys can KO an oder guy with a single punch and this does not exclude Rocky! I will ask you something. Why big George boxed at only 99,7kg or 220 lbs? For me this is the guy with the most solid structure that i have ever seen! He can get really easy 200kg if he wishes(he was actually near this weight ;) ) Joe Louis boxed at 207 really ripped and was far from "smal" guy. The so called hardest hitting boxer Shavers boxed at 211 and he was far from the condition of Louis. He could have lost some more weight! I think you get the picture. There is no need to be gigantish in order to punch hard. Being so big like the sisters destroys the stamina no mater of the conditioning! This means unnecessery bulking is bad! You can look cool but it's not a bodybuilding competition! Rocky could have been 110/120 kg no problem with this stocky italian build, but is it neccessery? Would have this helped him punching harder or take punch better? NO! Would have this imobilized him and destoyed his working rate? YES! As i said it's not about punching power anymore, but effective punching and consistancy!
Dark Lord Al i think you haven't watch the fight in details... In this fight you see why the smal guys are not to be underrestemated! All the power punches which were landed were from Tuas side. The only thing that Lewis did was destroying Tuas frisure and clinching! It was all Tuas fout that he loosed the fight, but this is an oder subject!
What i want to say is that the skills, condition and style are playing much more bigger role than the size and after some dimentions the size don't help, but exactly the oposite is true!

---

Totally disagree with just about everything you say mate. Whether you accept it or not, people are just bigger now!! The average height of a man in the 60s was 5 ft 8, it is now 5 ft 11. The average weight was 166 pounds it's now 191 pounds. When I was at school I was a big tall kid at 5 ft 11. If I go in a pub now I am a midget. Rocky Marciano coulld never have been 120 Kgs without either being fat or built like Mariusz Pudzianowski. I totally accept size is not everything and I know all of the arguments about shorter fighters, look how Tyson used his height (or lack thereof) and lateral movement. But we are not talking about slight size differences. George Foreman was the biggest most fearsome sized heavyweight at 220 pounds, that's about the size of Adamnek. I'm not saying Tyson or Foreman couldn't live with today's heavyweights, but for Marciano it would be a bridge too far imo. We have even had to introduce a new division and subsequently change the max weight of that division to 205 pounds, because of the size that heavyweight boxers now are. If we were talking about 20 pounds, Marciano's ability woud bridge the gap in size. But giving away 65 pounds to a fighter like Vitali.....

As for Tua, that fight was a shut out, Lewis schooled him and Tua was probaly heavier than Lewis anyway

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I thought the average height of a man was 5'9 mate ? in the UK anyway, as for Mike Tyson he was only 5'11 but he was 220 pound beast. He was knocking out big 6'3 plus guys like Ruddock, Williams, Holmes, Biggs, easily.

Im sorry but no way would either of the Klitschko brothers, beat a prime Mike Tyson. Carl Williams was 6'5 and a skilled Heavyweight, and Tyrell Biggs was 6'6 and skilled aswell.

And neither of them could keep Mike Tyson off them, both men didn't have the best chins in the world. But neither has Wladimir Klitschko, and even Vitali Klitschko's chin would shatter eventually.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by nikola_ganchev

BIG H what you say makes absolutly no sence. From one weight up almost all guys can KO an oder guy with a single punch and this does not exclude Rocky! I will ask you something. Why big George boxed at only 99,7kg or 220 lbs? For me this is the guy with the most solid structure that i have ever seen! He can get really easy 200kg if he wishes(he was actually near this weight ;) ) Joe Louis boxed at 207 really ripped and was far from "smal" guy. The so called hardest hitting boxer Shavers boxed at 211 and he was far from the condition of Louis. He could have lost some more weight! I think you get the picture. There is no need to be gigantish in order to punch hard. Being so big like the sisters destroys the stamina no mater of the conditioning! This means unnecessery bulking is bad! You can look cool but it's not a bodybuilding competition! Rocky could have been 110/120 kg no problem with this stocky italian build, but is it neccessery? Would have this helped him punching harder or take punch better? NO! Would have this imobilized him and destoyed his working rate? YES! As i said it's not about punching power anymore, but effective punching and consistancy!
Dark Lord Al i think you haven't watch the fight in details... In this fight you see why the smal guys are not to be underrestemated! All the power punches which were landed were from Tuas side. The only thing that Lewis did was destroying Tuas frisure and clinching! It was all Tuas fout that he loosed the fight, but this is an oder subject!
What i want to say is that the skills, condition and style are playing much more bigger role than the size and after some dimentions the size don't help, but exactly the oposite is true!

---

Totally disagree with just about everything you say mate. Whether you accept it or not, people are just bigger now!! The average height of a man in the 60s was 5 ft 8, it is now 5 ft 11. The average weight was 166 pounds it's now 191 pounds. When I was at school I was a big tall kid at 5 ft 11. If I go in a pub now I am a midget. Rocky Marciano coulld never have been 120 Kgs without either being fat or built like Mariusz Pudzianowski. I totally accept size is not everything and I know all of the arguments about shorter fighters, look how Tyson used his height (or lack thereof) and lateral movement. But we are not talking about slight size differences. George Foreman was the biggest most fearsome sized heavyweight at 220 pounds, that's about the size of Adamnek. I'm not saying Tyson or Foreman couldn't live with today's heavyweights, but for Marciano it would be a bridge too far imo. We have even had to introduce a new division and subsequently change the max weight of that division to 205 pounds, because of the size that heavyweight boxers now are. If we were talking about 20 pounds, Marciano's ability woud bridge the gap in size. But giving away 65 pounds to a fighter like Vitali.....

As for Tua, that fight was a shut out, Lewis schooled him and Tua was probaly heavier than Lewis anyway

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I thought the average height of a man was 5'9 mate ? in the UK anyway, as for Mike Tyson he was only 5'11 but he was 220 pound beast. He was knocking out big 6'3 plus guys like Ruddock, Williams, Holmes, Biggs, easily.

Im sorry but no way would either of the Klitschko brothers, beat a prime Mike Tyson. Carl Williams was 6'5 and a skilled Heavyweight, and Tyrell Biggs was 6'6 and skilled aswell.

And neither of them could keep Mike Tyson off them, both men didn't have the best chins in the world. But neither has Wladimir Klitschko, and even Vitali Klitschko's chin would shatter eventually.

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I wasn't talking about Tyson, I was talking about Marciano ;)

And average height, depends which source you use and which age/criteria you look at. Published average heights vary, but for 20-40 year US Males in 2008 it was 5ft 10 1/2. Go into any college in UK and you will see that that is wrong, I would say the average 20 year old is 6ft. You are young man ICE, surely you know that!

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by nikola_ganchev

BIG H what you say makes absolutly no sence. From one weight up almost all guys can KO an oder guy with a single punch and this does not exclude Rocky! I will ask you something. Why big George boxed at only 99,7kg or 220 lbs? For me this is the guy with the most solid structure that i have ever seen! He can get really easy 200kg if he wishes(he was actually near this weight ;) ) Joe Louis boxed at 207 really ripped and was far from "smal" guy. The so called hardest hitting boxer Shavers boxed at 211 and he was far from the condition of Louis. He could have lost some more weight! I think you get the picture. There is no need to be gigantish in order to punch hard. Being so big like the sisters destroys the stamina no mater of the conditioning! This means unnecessery bulking is bad! You can look cool but it's not a bodybuilding competition! Rocky could have been 110/120 kg no problem with this stocky italian build, but is it neccessery? Would have this helped him punching harder or take punch better? NO! Would have this imobilized him and destoyed his working rate? YES! As i said it's not about punching power anymore, but effective punching and consistancy!
Dark Lord Al i think you haven't watch the fight in details... In this fight you see why the smal guys are not to be underrestemated! All the power punches which were landed were from Tuas side. The only thing that Lewis did was destroying Tuas frisure and clinching! It was all Tuas fout that he loosed the fight, but this is an oder subject!
What i want to say is that the skills, condition and style are playing much more bigger role than the size and after some dimentions the size don't help, but exactly the oposite is true!

---

Totally disagree with just about everything you say mate. Whether you accept it or not, people are just bigger now!! The average height of a man in the 60s was 5 ft 8, it is now 5 ft 11. The average weight was 166 pounds it's now 191 pounds. When I was at school I was a big tall kid at 5 ft 11. If I go in a pub now I am a midget. Rocky Marciano coulld never have been 120 Kgs without either being fat or built like Mariusz Pudzianowski. I totally accept size is not everything and I know all of the arguments about shorter fighters, look how Tyson used his height (or lack thereof) and lateral movement. But we are not talking about slight size differences. George Foreman was the biggest most fearsome sized heavyweight at 220 pounds, that's about the size of Adamnek. I'm not saying Tyson or Foreman couldn't live with today's heavyweights, but for Marciano it would be a bridge too far imo. We have even had to introduce a new division and subsequently change the max weight of that division to 205 pounds, because of the size that heavyweight boxers now are. If we were talking about 20 pounds, Marciano's ability woud bridge the gap in size. But giving away 65 pounds to a fighter like Vitali.....

As for Tua, that fight was a shut out, Lewis schooled him and Tua was probaly heavier than Lewis anyway

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I thought the average height of a man was 5'9 mate ? in the UK anyway, as for Mike Tyson he was only 5'11 but he was 220 pound beast. He was knocking out big 6'3 plus guys like Ruddock, Williams, Holmes, Biggs, easily.

Im sorry but no way would either of the Klitschko brothers, beat a prime Mike Tyson. Carl Williams was 6'5 and a skilled Heavyweight, and Tyrell Biggs was 6'6 and skilled aswell.

And neither of them could keep Mike Tyson off them, both men didn't have the best chins in the world. But neither has Wladimir Klitschko, and even Vitali Klitschko's chin would shatter eventually.

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I wasn't talking about Tyson, I was talking about Marciano ;)

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Yea i know i was just talking generally really, because im hearing alot of people saying Klitschko brothers, would beat Mike Tyson because of there height nonsense IMO mate.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by nikola_ganchev

BIG H what you say makes absolutly no sence. From one weight up almost all guys can KO an oder guy with a single punch and this does not exclude Rocky! I will ask you something. Why big George boxed at only 99,7kg or 220 lbs? For me this is the guy with the most solid structure that i have ever seen! He can get really easy 200kg if he wishes(he was actually near this weight ;) ) Joe Louis boxed at 207 really ripped and was far from "smal" guy. The so called hardest hitting boxer Shavers boxed at 211 and he was far from the condition of Louis. He could have lost some more weight! I think you get the picture. There is no need to be gigantish in order to punch hard. Being so big like the sisters destroys the stamina no mater of the conditioning! This means unnecessery bulking is bad! You can look cool but it's not a bodybuilding competition! Rocky could have been 110/120 kg no problem with this stocky italian build, but is it neccessery? Would have this helped him punching harder or take punch better? NO! Would have this imobilized him and destoyed his working rate? YES! As i said it's not about punching power anymore, but effective punching and consistancy!
Dark Lord Al i think you haven't watch the fight in details... In this fight you see why the smal guys are not to be underrestemated! All the power punches which were landed were from Tuas side. The only thing that Lewis did was destroying Tuas frisure and clinching! It was all Tuas fout that he loosed the fight, but this is an oder subject!
What i want to say is that the skills, condition and style are playing much more bigger role than the size and after some dimentions the size don't help, but exactly the oposite is true!

---

Totally disagree with just about everything you say mate. Whether you accept it or not, people are just bigger now!! The average height of a man in the 60s was 5 ft 8, it is now 5 ft 11. The average weight was 166 pounds it's now 191 pounds. When I was at school I was a big tall kid at 5 ft 11. If I go in a pub now I am a midget. Rocky Marciano coulld never have been 120 Kgs without either being fat or built like Mariusz Pudzianowski. I totally accept size is not everything and I know all of the arguments about shorter fighters, look how Tyson used his height (or lack thereof) and lateral movement. But we are not talking about slight size differences. George Foreman was the biggest most fearsome sized heavyweight at 220 pounds, that's about the size of Adamnek. I'm not saying Tyson or Foreman couldn't live with today's heavyweights, but for Marciano it would be a bridge too far imo. We have even had to introduce a new division and subsequently change the max weight of that division to 205 pounds, because of the size that heavyweight boxers now are. If we were talking about 20 pounds, Marciano's ability woud bridge the gap in size. But giving away 65 pounds to a fighter like Vitali.....

As for Tua, that fight was a shut out, Lewis schooled him and Tua was probaly heavier than Lewis anyway

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Great post. If we're talking about a gap of 20 pounds which prime Tyson was facing against guys like Ruddock, Bruno, then it's not insurmountable. Giving up about 60 pounds is a lot to a guy like Lewis or the Klit bros if you're Rocky. Prime Tyson would come in about 220 against the bigger Hws, but it was only 10-20 pounds not 60 pounds like Marciano is. Marciano was a great in his era, but today's athlete is just bigger, faster, and stronger in many sports and this is quite evident at the Hw division with guys like Bowe, Lewis, Klit bros. A guy like Ali could compete with today's Hws because in his prime he was around 215 at 6'3". Which many boxing experts have said to be an ideal height and size for a HW. But Rocky was 5'10" and 187, which is what LHWs are on fight night after rehydration!