What's with all these bi-polar people?

So Charlie Sheen is bi-winning and now Zeta-Jones has booked herself into rehab because she is apparently bi-polar. Stephen Fry is another one of that is apparently bi-polar. Everyone in the world appears to have some kind of mental problem. Even my own mother has piles of pills for her own apparent issues with depression.

So, my question is this. What is it all about? Are we simply inventing names of mental disorders so that drug companies can sell product or is it simply that we want an excuse for the way we fail to moderate ourselves? Or could it be that these trendy sounding mental illnesses are real and out there?

I have my own emotional swings and roundabouts, but I am never going to go to a doctor just to have him tell me that I am bisexual or bipolar or whatever the buzzword of the day is. I am who I am and I have to deal with my problems my own way. I am a cynic and often look on the bleak side, but does this mean I am a manic depressive. I don't think so. It is just who I am. The whole rehab thing sounds like a cop out a lot of the time. I can understand it for hardened junkies and Ricky Hatton, but Catherine Zeta-Jones might as well book herself a holiday and get away from it all if she is that stressed out. But for every Tom, dick and Harry to be bipolar? It's getting too obvious and seems like a bit of a cop out to me.

What are your thoughts on the growing bi-polar menace?

Mental illness is a very real problem and just because you can deal with your "problems" doesn't mean other people can and it certainly doesn't mean that they don't experience things in a much different way than you do. Honestly, I think your post smacks of ignorance and is typical of the types of attitudes which make it difficult for people with mental health problems to get the help they need.

My post definitely contains ignorance because it isn't something I understand particularly well. I just think that everyone goes through stages of being either up or down and that there are also a lot of times when things are quite stable and surely going on that criteria we all have mental problems. It's just life, it seems too glib to trot out the "oh, he's got mental problems" line. It just seems to me an already made excuse for a complete lack of self responsibility for ones own actions. You can look at Charlie Sheen for instance and see that he has issues, but to what extent is it simply a spoiled rich kid who has been able to do what he wants with no checks and balances or is it really a serious mental problem? I just wonder where the line is sometimes. Do we have people booking themselves into rehab because they can't be bothered to look after new born babies? The lines are blurring. Now a good old fashioned schizophrenic is what I refer to as a proper mental case, but depression and all of this? I'm sure there is a lot behind it, but I'm sure a lot more of it is excuse making for not wanting to face up to the cold, hard facts of existence.

I suppose I am quite British in that I believe a stiff upper lip, some moral backbone and a hardened attitude should suffice.

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Originally Posted by miles

My post definitely contains ignorance because it isn't something I understand particularly well. I just think that everyone goes through stages of being either up or down and that there are also a lot of times when things are quite stable and surely going on that criteria we all have mental problems. It's just life, it seems too glib to trot out the "oh, he's got mental problems" line. It just seems to me an already made excuse for a complete lack of self responsibility for ones own actions. You can look at Charlie Sheen for instance and see that he has issues, but to what extent is it simply a spoiled rich kid who has been able to do what he wants with no checks and balances or is it really a serious mental problem? I just wonder where the line is sometimes. Do we have people booking themselves into rehab because they can't be bothered to look after new born babies? The lines are blurring. Now a good old fashioned schizophrenic is what I refer to as a proper mental case, but depression and all of this? I'm sure there is a lot behind it, but I'm sure a lot more of it is excuse making for not wanting to face up to the cold, hard facts of existence.

I suppose I am quite British in that I believe a stiff upper lip, some moral backbone and a hardened attitude should suffice.

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Well, first of all Charlie Sheen is a complete act. I don't buy his shtick (sp?) for a minute.

Second - and I'll warn you right now this is going to get long-winded - I would argue that admitting you have mental health problems and getting help for them is a sure sign of responsibility, not a sign of irresponsibility. Also, people with mental health problems (and I'm speaking in an extremely general way here) don't experience the normal ups and downs of life like a 'normal' person would, that's one of the reasons they're considered mentally ill. Someone with depression can seem to have everything going for them: money, love, a good career etc. and they will still be miserable - that's a medical condition. Many mental health issues cannot be understand rationally because they are inherently irrational in their affects. They're absolutely legitimate medical issues though, just looks at how many people die as a result and how profoundly negative their impacts are on peoples lives.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by miles

My post definitely contains ignorance because it isn't something I understand particularly well. I just think that everyone goes through stages of being either up or down and that there are also a lot of times when things are quite stable and surely going on that criteria we all have mental problems. It's just life, it seems too glib to trot out the "oh, he's got mental problems" line. It just seems to me an already made excuse for a complete lack of self responsibility for ones own actions. You can look at Charlie Sheen for instance and see that he has issues, but to what extent is it simply a spoiled rich kid who has been able to do what he wants with no checks and balances or is it really a serious mental problem? I just wonder where the line is sometimes. Do we have people booking themselves into rehab because they can't be bothered to look after new born babies? The lines are blurring. Now a good old fashioned schizophrenic is what I refer to as a proper mental case, but depression and all of this? I'm sure there is a lot behind it, but I'm sure a lot more of it is excuse making for not wanting to face up to the cold, hard facts of existence.

I suppose I am quite British in that I believe a stiff upper lip, some moral backbone and a hardened attitude should suffice.

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Well, first of all Charlie Sheen is a complete act. I don't buy his shtick (sp?) for a minute.

Second - and I'll warn you right now this is going to get long-winded - I would argue that admitting you have mental health problems and getting help for them is a sure sign of responsibility, not a sign of irresponsibility. Also, people with mental health problems (and I'm speaking in an extremely general way here) don't experience the normal ups and downs of life like a 'normal' person would, that's one of the reasons they're considered mentally ill. Someone with depression can seem to have everything going for them: money, love, a good career etc. and they will still be miserable - that's a medical condition. Many mental health issues cannot be understand rationally because they are inherently irrational in their affects. They're absolutely legitimate medical issues though, just looks at how many people die as a result and how profoundly negative their impacts are on peoples lives.

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I look at Charlie Sheen and think "what a cad". I've no idea what he is all about really.

Good points in your second paragraph and I wouldn't say I disagree with any of that. I'm just not sure about it all, I mean I spend my share of time being miserable, but I wouldn't call it a medical condition. It is just a state of existence. It is who I am. Surely it is better to just accept who you are and to deal with it without talking to doctors or taking drugs that affect the balance of your mind. In some respects doesn't doing that mean you are running away from who you are and creating an artificial you? How many people have been depressed in their lives? We can't just medicate everyone when they are having their swings and roundabouts. Where is the line. Do we not rest until everyone is insulated by pharmaceutical companies? Just man up and carry on breathing, ride through the rocky patch.

Now people who cut up their bodies or people who starve themselves, those to me are what I would call obvious and apparent mental health issues. The whole bi-polar and depression area of mental health appears to me all that more murky. Catherine Zeta Jones after all these years is suddenly off to rehab and is bi-polar. It is almost like a celebrity badge or something. Why not just leave it at having a hard year looking after the kids and dealing with a husband with cancer. But no, she is bi-polar as well. It just seems to be all the rage. Life is hard, get on with it. No need to put a label on it so that certain mental experts find their own particular niche within a field.

Maybe I am just too cynical and cold. Obviously there are a lot of people out there going through hell, but at the same time I think a lot of people do simply need to buckle down. Life is not a picnic and that's just a fact of life.

I have no doubt some people are very ill and need help, but I also think there are a lot of people being misdiagnosed as its easier just to treat everyone

Take a look at this

Link here

How to brand a disease -- and sell a cure

If you want to understand the way prescription drugs are marketed today, have a look at the 1928 book, "Propaganda," by Edward Bernays, the father of public relations in America.

For Bernays, the public relations business was less about selling things than about creating the conditions for things to sell themselves. When Bernays was working as a salesman for Mozart pianos, for example, he did not simply place advertisements for pianos in newspapers. That would have been too obvious.

Instead, Bernays persuaded reporters to write about a new trend: Sophisticated people were putting aside a special room in the home for playing music. Once a person had a music room, Bernays believed, he would naturally think of buying a piano. As Bernays wrote, "It will come to him as his own idea."
Just as Bernays sold pianos by selling the music room, pharmaceutical marketers now sell drugs by selling the diseases that they treat. The buzzword is "disease branding."

To brand a disease is to shape its public perception in order to make it more palatable to potential patients. Panic disorder, reflux disease, erectile dysfunction, restless legs syndrome, bipolar disorder, overactive bladder, ADHD, premenstrual dysphoric disorder, even clinical depression: All these conditions were once regarded as rare until a marketing campaign transformed the brand.

Once a branded disease has achieved a degree of cultural legitimacy, there is no need to convince anyone that a drug to treat it is necessary. It will come to him as his own idea.

Disease branding works especially well for two kinds of conditions. The first is the shameful condition that can be destigmatized. For instance, when Pharmacia launched Detrol in the late 1990s, the condition the drug treated was known to doctors as "urge incontinence." Patients called it "accidentally peeing in my pants" and were embarrassed to bring it up with their physicians.

Pharmacia fixed the problem by rebranding the condition as "overactive bladder." Whereas "incontinence" suggested weakness and was associated mainly with elderly women, the phrase "overactive bladder" evoked a supercharged organ frantically working overtime.

To qualify for a diagnosis of "overactive bladder," patients did not actually have to lose bladder control." They simply needed to go to the bathroom a lot.

The vice president of Pharmacia, Neil Wolf, explained the branding strategy in a 2002 presentation called "Positioning Detrol: Creating a Disease." By creating the disease of "overactive bladder," Wolf claimed, Pharmacia created a market of 21 million potential patients.

Another good candidate for branding is a condition that can be plausibly portrayed as under-diagnosed. Branding such a condition assures potential patients that they are part of a large and credible community of sufferers. For example, in 1999, the FDA approved the antidepressant Paxil for the treatment of "social anxiety disorder," a condition previously known as "shyness."

In order to convince shy people they had social anxiety disorder, GlaxoSmithKline, the maker of Paxil, hired a PR firm called Cohn and Wolfe. Cohn and Wolfe put together a public awareness campaign called "Imagine being allergic to people," which was allegedly sponsored by a group called the "Social Anxiety Disorders Coalition."

GlaxoSmithKline also recruited celebrities like Ricky Williams, the NFL running back, and paid them to give interviews to the press about their own social anxiety disorder. Finally, they hired academic psychiatrists working on social anxiety disorder and sent them out on the lecture circuit in the top 25 media markets.

The results were remarkable. In the two years before Paxil was approved for social anxiety, there were only about 50 references to social anxiety disorder in the press. But in 1999, during the PR campaign, there were over a billion references.

Within two years Paxil had become the seventh most profitable drug in America, and Cohn and Wolfe had picked up an award for the best PR campaign of 1999. Today, social anxiety disorder, far from being rare, is often described as the third most common mental illness in the world.

It is hard to brand a disease without the help of physicians, of course. So drug companies typically recruit academic "thought leaders" to write and speak about any new conditions they are trying to introduce. It also helps if the physicians believe the branded condition is dangerous.

When AstraZeneca introduced Prilosec (and later Nexium) for heartburn, for example, it famously repositioned heartburn as "gastroesophageal reflux disease," or GERD. But it also commissioned research to demonstrate the devastating consequences of failing to treat it.

If all drugs were harmless, disease branding would be relatively harmless, too. But no drug is completely benign.

For example, Detrol can make elderly people delirious and may cause memory problems. Paxil is associated with sexual dysfunction and dependence. It also carries a black-box warning for suicide in children and adolescents. Side effects like these are a part of every drug. But they are never part of the brand.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Carl Elliott.

That was a fascinating read too.

I have started this thread with my own particular assumptions about things, but as I have admitted I am somewhat ignorant on the issue. It was nice to see that my assumptions also appear to have some basis too.

It's insane how you can market a drug for shyness. There shouldn't need to be such a thing, surely such a character altering drug is on a par with cocaine or speed. I was a shy person once and still am when in a group, but my mantra is a simple one. You have to work these things out for yourself. You can't expect miracle drugs to do everything for you. You have problems, then deal with them. You are shy? Then work at it. All these years later am I shy? Yes, a little. Am I as shy as I was? No. Why? I worked on it. You can apply this logic to so many other things.

I also find it extremely bizarre when I am watching Friday night fights and the "I can't get it up" adverts come on. It's downright weird that you can be advertising "hard on" drugs on the TV. Is it only me that thinks this way?

I can see the logic of the "we will invent a solution to a new problem" industry. It's something I am very suspicious of and mental health is something we really don't really know all that much about. Does the person really have a mental problem or is it simply that it is easier to label them as having one and make some coin from it? It's that dividing line that has me arching my eyebrow a little.

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Originally Posted by miles

. You have to work these things out for yourself.

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Easier to take a pill then try and work it out. :rolleyes:

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I also find it extremely bizarre when I am watching Friday night fights and the "I can't get it up" adverts come on. It's downright weird that you can be advertising "hard on" drugs on the TV. Is it only me that thinks this way?

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Can't have a man, no matter his age going around with the ability to get it up. Was push through the FDA faster than any other drug currently on the market. :o

And no I do not need it.

yes and no. It's often easier to hide certain mental illness depending on your profession, if you're an actor it's just you being 'artistic'. Imagine being bi-polar and a butcher with a wife, kids, and a morgage. seems a bit less fancy.

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Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy

yes and no. It's often easier to hide certain mental illness depending on your profession, if you're an actor it's just you being 'artistic'. Imagine being bi-polar and a butcher with a wife, kids, and a morgage. seems a bit less fancy.

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Does he spend half the year in the Arctic and the other half down in Antarctica?

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Originally Posted by Ghost

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Originally Posted by miles

. You have to work these things out for yourself.

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Easier to take a pill then try and work it out. :rolleyes:

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I also find it extremely bizarre when I am watching Friday night fights and the "I can't get it up" adverts come on. It's downright weird that you can be advertising "hard on" drugs on the TV. Is it only me that thinks this way?

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Can't have a man, no matter his age going around with the ability to get it up. Was push through the FDA faster than any other drug currently on the market. :o

And no I do not need it.

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Perhaps taking that pill is a cop out though. You are denying what you really are by resorting to products that change your natural mental condition. I can understand somebody wanting to talk to someone, but to need to resort to drugs just seems a bit frankenstein to me. I am shy, "well, don't worry son. Pop this pill and you'll be as right as rain in no time". That's no real way of dealing with the inherent shyness.

The erectile dysfunction thing is just another one of those things that seems strange to me. Fair enough that the product is available to those who need it, but you are able to advertise that on TV. Just seems that naughtiness wrapped up in nice language is completely fine even though what is being sold is totally pervy.

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Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy

yes and no. It's often easier to hide certain mental illness depending on your profession, if you're an actor it's just you being 'artistic'. Imagine being bi-polar and a butcher with a wife, kids, and a morgage. seems a bit less fancy.

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I'm kind of on the fence on this. I understand that some have serious problems, but I also wince when I hear of yet another celebrity quite publically coming out as bi-polar. It's like the latest cool thing for the famous to have. I can't control my life, well here is my medical justification.

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Originally Posted by miles

Perhaps taking that pill is a cop out though. You are denying what you really are by resorting to products that change your natural mental condition. I can understand somebody wanting to talk to someone, but to need to resort to drugs just seems a bit frankenstein to me. I am shy, "well, don't worry son. Pop this pill and you'll be as right as rain in no time". That's no real way of dealing with the inherent shyness.

The erectile dysfunction thing is just another one of those things that seems strange to me. Fair enough that the product is available to those who need it, but you are able to advertise that on TV. Just seems that naughtiness wrapped up in nice language is completely fine even though what is being sold is totally pervy.

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TV is on a down hill slide IMHO. Late night ads can find you calling dating services that are anything but for "dating".

Fit's right into this forum. :rolleyes:

I find it weird that the man who doesn't believe God, and therefore a soul keeps talking about accepting the 'way we are'.

How are you exactly? Personality and feelings according to evolutionary biology is nothing more than chemicals in the brain. If somebody is feeling shy, or angry, miserable all it is is chemicals in the brain being released to make them feel that way.

So why are you against giving them pills to alter that biochemistry?

You have a commitment to personhood that is entirely at odds with your world view.

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Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy

yes and no. It's often easier to hide certain mental illness depending on your profession, if you're an actor it's just you being 'artistic'. Imagine being bi-polar and a butcher with a wife, kids, and a morgage. seems a bit less fancy.

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I read that as a bipolar butcher with a knife.

I blame the chemicals in food through farming, combined with the flooding of the airwaves with frequencies not natural to us, thats my excuse,sometimes drugs n alcohol in a system being passed along to fetuses :-\.

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Originally Posted by CFH

Mental illness is a very real problem and just because you can deal with your "problems" doesn't mean other people can and it certainly doesn't mean that they don't experience things in a much different way than you do. Honestly, I think your post smacks of ignorance and is typical of the types of attitudes which make it difficult for people with mental health problems to get the help they need.

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:appl::appl:

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy

yes and no. It's often easier to hide certain mental illness depending on your profession, if you're an actor it's just you being 'artistic'. Imagine being bi-polar and a butcher with a wife, kids, and a morgage. seems a bit less fancy.

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I'm kind of on the fence on this. I understand that some have serious problems, but I also wince when I hear of yet another celebrity quite publically coming out as bi-polar. It's like the latest cool thing for the famous to have. I can't control my life, well here is my medical justification.

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I don't think its that widespread Miles. But obviously one celebrity saying publically that they suffer from it is likely to encourage others in their position to do the same. Most of the information about a celebrity is in the public domain, their spouse, their children, their favourite holiday destinations, the lastest diet/exercise regime they are on etc etc. Being Bi-Polar is another aspect of them and shouldn't be hidden (not if everything else about them is un-hidden).
(I actually would rather that we didn't know every aspect of every celebrities life, but something like BI-Polar is more significant than, say, what they eat for breakfast).

Although it may seem to you that there are lots of celebrities 'coming out' with a mental illness recentley don't forget that there are a LOT of celebrities.
We could play a game, you name a celebrity with a supposed metal illness, and I will name one without.
You will be finished in 10 minutes. I will still be naming them this time next week.
Statistically speaking the numbers probably reflect what would be scientifically expected (or close to).

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I find it weird that the man who doesn't believe God, and therefore a soul keeps talking about accepting the 'way we are'.

How are you exactly? Personality and feelings according to evolutionary biology is nothing more than chemicals in the brain. If somebody is feeling shy, or angry, miserable all it is is chemicals in the brain being released to make them feel that way.

So why are you against giving them pills to alter that biochemistry?

You have a commitment to personhood that is entirely at odds with your world view.

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I exist in the here and now and I have my values in the here and now. I cannot just eradicate all thought because I am godless. I believe in life and I believe in death, these are things that we all have to go through either with or without delusion. To alter a natural state through drugs is to delude the natural self.

If someone is shy then that is their nature. Perhaps it has been socially conditioned or perhaps it was there all along, but that person has the ability to adapt.

I don't like the idea of using drugs to alter what is a natural human condition. If we are to allow pharmaceutical companies to produce such drugs then we should allow the black market to compete too. Cocaine is probably just as effective when it comes to reducing shyness.

I like the way nature has designed people and am against artificial manipulation of the mind via drugs and the body via plastic surgery.

Ultimately, if that is what people want to do then so be it. I am a libertarian and people are free to make their own choices, but I do find it false. You have one real life time, you might as well be yourself no matter how miserable it might be.

Mind you I shouldn't talk about mind altering drugs when it was me that went to work with a hangover on a bloody wednesday. Drugs are all over the place you can't even drink a cup of coffee without polluting the mind. Sod it, let everyone take their anti-angry pills, their hard on pills whatever. Aesthetically I find it very unappealing, but then again I find many aspects of the modern capitalist consumer society unappealing too, but I continue to live within it. I haven't gone and camped out in the forest yet.

You're an odd one Miles. I'm fully in agreement with what Bilbo and CFH have said.

I've seen first hand what depression can do. My ex girlfriend had a serious disorder and it was horrible for me to deal with. God only knows what it's like for her. What made it harder for her was other people's complete lack of understanding. Constantly being asked 'what have you got to be depressed about?' and being told to 'get on with it'.

It's not good.

I am a bit strange on this one for sure. It's not one of those threads where I am convinced that I am right and that everyone is wrong, it's more one of those working my thoughts out as I go along threads. At times I can probably sound contradictory quite probably because I have been thinking on the hop and haven't actually sat down and analysed quite what it is I truly think. There are many issues I have worked over in my mind, but this isn't one of them. I read a news story on Zeta-Jones and thought I would race on through with an amped up thread.

I don't know why I am being so harsh on the depressed as I can sometimes be the bleakest of people with the most pessimistic and hopeless of dispositions myself. I should probably be a bit more sympathetic. It isn't always like that for me though and often times I can feel really content with life. Just ups and downs. But isn't that normal for everybody? I really think that people need to just get on with it for there really is nothing else. You can either face another day or you can quit and ultimately that decision lies within the self.

What am I going on about anyway? I have no idea, I guess I believe that though there are serious cases where the mind is probably quite screwed up, I think a lot of people use mental illness as an excuse for a basic lack of self control. Was Keith Moon a mentalist or was he someone who just took things too far because he quite liked it? I've a feeling a lot of people probably like the feeling of pushing too far, but when you go over the edge it's nice to have an excuse such as ''oh, I have a mental disorder".

I'm in full agreement with CFH (scum), Ono, Ryanman & even Bilbo.

However, in Miles defence, if you've not got people close to you suffering from it, it's hard to understand. I've got a few nutjobs in my family (I know I should say something PC, but that sounds better) & you can definitely see how it fucks up their lives. Not that it's particularly fun for you, I remember my uncle suddenly deciding to drag me out of bed at 7am on a holiday a few summers ago until I threatened to break his jaw :-\, but he has very little treatment for his disorder apart from my aunt just trying to stop his manic depression. He has an outlook similar to yours Miles, and his adherence to it makes others' lives around him very difficult.

You clearly don't fully understand your own world view Miles.

There is no natural self. Man is merely a collection of molecules arranged into a carbon based organism that takes in food in order to generate energy for movement and sexual reproduction and has an anus to excrete said waste. It's 'purpose is to live to sexual maturity, mate and reproduce and maintain its offspring long enough so that it can fend for itself. As the original organism is no longer needed once successors have been born it can expire.

Thought processes and emotional feelings are all controlled by chemicals in the brain. Some people release more or less of certain chemicals than others.

To better regulate and control an organisms emotional wellbeing pills can be administered to return chemical balance to normal. This will hopefully better enable it to function more efficiently regarding reprodution and survival, of course only needed to until younger ofspring are able to spport themselves independently.

I'm confused on what grounds you object? Maybe you belive treatment of the weak is wrong as it is natures way of weeding out those genes unfit for existence? That makes sense but I havnt heard you speak out against medical care before, even though it is against nature.

There is a natural self. It is the me that is typing these thoughts and the me who reads what I read and the me who plans my lessons etc. This is what makes me an individual. I am an individual who is capable of making conscious decisions quite distinct from others. It is finite and limited, but while it lasts it is what I am.

I just don't understand how we can say that a gloomy or depressed disposition is not natural. To the person predisposed to that condition surely that is a normal state of affairs? That is what they have been born and raised with and that is what they must work through. If they cannot procreate then that is their hard luck. They should at least have pretended to be cheerful on a date.

As one who has no particular desire to pass on genes to any other poor little chap, I don't really have too many opinions regarding the need to create offspring. I don't really see the need for that and probably think more like the resourceful panda than a rabbit. I have probably learned from my parents in that regard...to resist and reject it all.

I just think a natural condition is the way that one was intended to be so why interfere with that process? If they can't pass on their genes? Well, who cares? Maybe it's better for the world that more depressed people don't get pregnant as the world is getting rather full as it is.

Ok, seriously Bilbo/Miles, it's getting damn tiring of you guys trying to turn every thread into a debate about your respective beliefs regarding God. This is actually a pretty interesting topic & it doesn't need to be about Miles lack of belief in God rather his lack of understanding for people with mental illness. So what if there are some contradictions in it, we're all contradictory in our beliefs.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Ok, seriously Bilbo/Miles, it's getting damn tiring of you guys trying to turn every thread into a debate about your respective beliefs regarding God. This is actually a pretty interesting topic & it doesn't need to be about Miles lack of belief in God rather his lack of understanding for people with mental illness. So what if there are some contradictions in it, we're all contradictory in our beliefs.

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I agree with that and in my defence I didn't bring it up.

As I said before, I started the thread ad hoc and am working my views out bit by bit. But when the whole god thing comes up I do get defensive and try to defend myself somewhat. If Bilbo will be a gent then I shall too. I am more than happy to stick to only this topic and have another thread for if anyone wants to debate something else.

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Originally Posted by miles

There is a natural self. It is the me that is typing these thoughts and the me who reads what I read and the me who plans my lessons etc. This is what makes me an individual. I am an individual who is capable of making conscious decisions quite distinct from others. It is finite and limited, but while it lasts it is what I am.

I just don't understand how we can say that a gloomy or depressed disposition is not natural. To the person predisposed to that condition surely that is a normal state of affairs? That is what they have been born and raised with and that is what they must work through. If they cannot procreate then that is their hard luck. They should at least have pretended to be cheerful on a date.

As one who has no particular desire to pass on genes to any other poor little chap, I don't really have too many opinions regarding the need to create offspring. I don't really see the need for that and probably think more like the resourceful panda than a rabbit. I have probably learned from my parents in that regard...to resist and reject it all.

I just think a natural condition is the way that one was intended to be so why interfere with that process? If they can't pass on their genes? Well, who cares? Maybe it's better for the world that more depressed people don't get pregnant as the world is getting rather full as it is.

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How so? You don't have a soul right? The thinking processes are just a part of your physical brain, so if somebody has a different chemical balance they would think differently and effectively be somebody else.

You are merely a chemical receptor and responder with a big haddrive of memories of past experiences.

You are not you, it's just part of your brain that has memories of past events stored and the current receptors in your brain give meaning to that in order to learn from past events which gives you the illusion of having a personality thought. But you don't really, how could you? The atoms andmolecues that made up your body 10 years ago have virtually all died and been replaced now. You are no longer who you were 10 years ago, your brain merely has stored that organisms past experiences to learn from and to be able to interact within the world today.

Stop talking about self, its a religious concept, not a scientific one. You are a very confused man...

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Ok, seriously Bilbo/Miles, it's getting damn tiring of you guys trying to turn every thread into a debate about your respective beliefs regarding God. This is actually a pretty interesting topic & it doesn't need to be about Miles lack of belief in God rather his lack of understanding for people with mental illness. So what if there are some contradictions in it, we're all contradictory in our beliefs.

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I agree with that and in my defence I didn't bring it up.

As I said before, I started the thread ad hoc and am working my views out bit by bit. But when the whole god thing comes up I do get defensive and try to defend myself somewhat. If Bilbo will be a gent then I shall too. I am more than happy to stick to only this topic and have another thread for if anyone wants to debate something else.

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Thank God (it's an expression, let's not use it as more means for debate on that), I would send you some rep but need to spread it like Big H does STDs.

As it is, we can all have some pretty uninformed views on things we don't come into contact with. I remember up until I went to university, I genuinely believed that all gay people should be put on an island somewhere away from 'normal' people, a kind of 'Gaysrael'. Although worryingly that marked me out as a real liberal on the issue in my area :-\

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Ok, seriously Bilbo/Miles, it's getting damn tiring of you guys trying to turn every thread into a debate about your respective beliefs regarding God. This is actually a pretty interesting topic & it doesn't need to be about Miles lack of belief in God rather his lack of understanding for people with mental illness. So what if there are some contradictions in it, we're all contradictory in our beliefs.

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I agree with that and in my defence I didn't bring it up.

As I said before, I started the thread ad hoc and am working my views out bit by bit. But when the whole god thing comes up I do get defensive and try to defend myself somewhat. If Bilbo will be a gent then I shall too. I am more than happy to stick to only this topic and have another thread for if anyone wants to debate something else.

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Thank God (it's an expression, let's not use it as more means for debate on that), I would send you some rep but need to spread it like Big H does STDs.

As it is, we can all have some pretty uninformed views on things we don't come into contact with. I remember up until I went to university, I genuinely believed that all gay people should be put on an island somewhere away from 'normal' people, a kind of 'Gaysrael'. Although worryingly that marked me out as a real liberal on the issue in my area :-\

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:lol:

http://fr.toonpool.com/user/1391/fil...lar_365455.jpg

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

There is a natural self. It is the me that is typing these thoughts and the me who reads what I read and the me who plans my lessons etc. This is what makes me an individual. I am an individual who is capable of making conscious decisions quite distinct from others. It is finite and limited, but while it lasts it is what I am.

I just don't understand how we can say that a gloomy or depressed disposition is not natural. To the person predisposed to that condition surely that is a normal state of affairs? That is what they have been born and raised with and that is what they must work through. If they cannot procreate then that is their hard luck. They should at least have pretended to be cheerful on a date.

As one who has no particular desire to pass on genes to any other poor little chap, I don't really have too many opinions regarding the need to create offspring. I don't really see the need for that and probably think more like the resourceful panda than a rabbit. I have probably learned from my parents in that regard...to resist and reject it all.

I just think a natural condition is the way that one was intended to be so why interfere with that process? If they can't pass on their genes? Well, who cares? Maybe it's better for the world that more depressed people don't get pregnant as the world is getting rather full as it is.

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How so? You don't have a soul right? The thinking processes are just a part of your physical brain, so if somebody has a different chemical balance they would think differently and effectively be somebody else.

You are merely a chemical receptor and responder with a big haddrive of memories of past experiences.

You are not you, it's just part of your brain that has memories of past events stored and the current receptors in your brain give meaning to that in order to learn from past events which gives you the illusion of having a personality thought. But you don't really, how could you? The atoms andmolecues that made up your body 10 years ago have virtually all died and been replaced now. You are no longer who you were 10 years ago, your brain merely has stored that organisms past experiences to learn from and to be able to interact within the world today.

Stop talking about self, its a religious concept, not a scientific one. You are a very confused man...

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You are indeed trying to draw me in. The natural self is who I am. I am the product of human beings with minds of their own who decided to do whatever they did. If I am not natural then I don't know what is. It is also easily explainable through science.

The self is a scientific concept too Bilbo. It is individuals who create the science by which we make sense of this world.

Religion itself was created by man and not god. The self is a very human and in turn scientific concept. I see no real difficulty with that.

That's my last post on that topic. Not because you have won, but because people seem to think that I am ignorant on this topic and I am not so sure that I am. I want to discuss this for a bit.

Having bipolar disorder is akin to having diabetes or cancer, or any one of a number of human ailments. One that can often be treated and controlled. It should not be understood any differently. Yet there are terrible stigmas, and mainly bred by ignorance. No one will ever condemn a cancer patient for being sick. They didn't choose to be, right? Same goes for diabetes. You get sick, there are treatments, sometimes they work, other times they don't.

Let's look at cancer. There are different types of treatment to choose from, and no one will look at that person as some dreg of society if they choose something different then the norm. Just a person faced with the most difficult of situations. And whatever call they do make, you can be sure that call will affect the lives of those around them. This is the nature of bipolar disorder. But yet, people really view them as weak or flawed, almost no matter the outcome. It's sad really.

The problem with the treatment of mental illness is, and particularly bipolar, the side affects of the treatment make it difficult for many of the people taking the drugs to stay on them. Imagine you are an artist or scientist, and you have a wall of inspiration in front of you draw from. That at times there is a portal there, that opens up and burns bright giving you energy, inspiration, understanding of the world around you, heightened senses of the world and feelings so powerful they are hard to rationalize not experiencing them. w/e the cost.

For example, if you were say a God believing person, and you truly believed you were close to touching the face of God and understanding everything only ever speculated on, proving his existance to humanity for once and all...could you really choose not to? If you were an atheist with an interest in science and space, and felt you were about to unravel the universes deepest secrets could you really choose not to, because of some spinoff effects of outcome, or causality to others? THE MOTHERFUCKING SECRETS OF THE UNIVERSE FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL!! When you get to those points the costs become irrelevant. And these are the types of things that mania and delusion bring on. Extremely powerful feelings, things most of us will never know.

And then there is the cost. When the portal closes, when that burning bright light begins to fade, to close and becomes but a pinhole, a trickle of it's former all knowing all being self, through medication or simple chemical changes in the brain. And all that is left is the reality it was all but a dream. It wasn't real. And the cost is all that is left. That terrible cost, that is usually to those around you.

You've just went from master of your known universe, to the villain of your reality. That's a big and bitter pill to swallow.

And why so many of them will not swallow their pills for long.

And they didn't ask for it. To have to make these choices. Fate just jumped in and said YOU, this is your existance. No different most often then the cancer patient, the person with diabetes.

But what is your self that you are talking about?

You are in your belief entirely physical. There is no spiritual or soul part of you.

You have a physical place in your brain that stores memories, a physical place that processes and regulates things such as movement, hunger, thirst levels, fear, sexual excitement etc.

If the parts that controlled these parts of you were removed you would no longer have thought or personality, as they don't exist independently of the brain according to your world view.

Furthermore as all the cells in your body are constantly being replaced your physical body is comprised of totally different molecues than it was several years ago.

Think an axe when someone replaces the head, then years later replaces the handle. It's not the same axe any more it's physically different.

You are an entirely physical organism too. All the cells in your body have been changed and replaced many times. How can you possibly be the same person unless you have a spirit or soul independent of your physical form?

So confused...

I do have some experience with depression and that is my mother. She is a pretty hardcore depressive and has been so for as long as I can remember. I guess being married to my Dad and then having to raise me and my sister after he jumped ship was not easy. Actually, being married to my Dad was probably a bit more difficult than raising me. She has been on all kinds of anti-depressants all these years and it is something I never really understood. I guess my rejection of all things parental has also led me to rejecting that kind of thing too.

I am not ignorant of mental health, but do have a strong sense of resistance. Maybe it's a denial of the unfortunate aspects that the gene pool has passed on.

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Originally Posted by miles

I do have some experience with depression and that is my mother. She is a pretty hardcore depressive and has been so for as long as I can remember. I guess being married to my Dad and then having to raise me and my sister after he jumped ship was not easy. Actually, being married to my Dad was probably a bit more difficult than raising me. She has been on all kinds of anti-depressants all these years and it is something I never really understood. I guess my rejection of all things parental has also led me to rejecting that kind of thing too.

I am not ignorant of mental health, but do have a strong sense of resistance. Maybe it's a denial of the unfortunate aspects that the gene pool has passed on.

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Anybody want to take a sig bet that Miles' next thread will be about his visit to the doctor and his Prozac prescription :p

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

But what is your self that you are talking about?

You are in your belief entirely physical. There is no spiritual or soul part of you.

You have a physical place in your brain that stores memories, a physical place that processes and regulates things such as movement, hunger, thirst levels, fear, sexual excitement etc.

If the parts that controlled these parts of you were removed you would no longer have thought or personality, as they don't exist independently of the brain according to your world view.

Furthermore as all the cells in your body are constantly being replaced your physical body is comprised of totally different molecues than it was several years ago.

Think an axe when someone replaces the head, then years later replaces the handle. It's not the same axe any more it's physically different.

You are an entirely physical organism too. All the cells in your body have been changed and replaced many times. How can you possibly be the same person unless you have a spirit or soul independent of your physical form?

So confused...

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I don't know fully what I am, but I do know that I seem to be quite distinct from many others. I am also quite similar to many more. You are what you are, how can you be anything else?

You seem to be having issues with my definition of soul. Must soul be only a religious term? I don't think so. I think of soul as a human with those various facets that you yourself describe. But I do think intellectualism is a part of the brain that plays more of a role within some than others. Sure, the cells are continually fading and that what I think is me is actually long dead. But it is reproduced in memory and there is physical documentation of what I once was.

Within this body and via the food and liquids I digest this physical form is somehow perpertuated and that is all I know. I also know that one day I shall die and that it really will disintegrate for good. I have no issues with that.

Sure, you want people to change their moods with drugs, then fair enough. I don't mind all that much. But it is unnatural.

The mind should be able to adapt on it's own and it usually can. If it can't then I question the purpose of it continuing.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

I do have some experience with depression and that is my mother. She is a pretty hardcore depressive and has been so for as long as I can remember. I guess being married to my Dad and then having to raise me and my sister after he jumped ship was not easy. Actually, being married to my Dad was probably a bit more difficult than raising me. She has been on all kinds of anti-depressants all these years and it is something I never really understood. I guess my rejection of all things parental has also led me to rejecting that kind of thing too.

I am not ignorant of mental health, but do have a strong sense of resistance. Maybe it's a denial of the unfortunate aspects that the gene pool has passed on.

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Anybody want to take a sig bet that Miles' next thread will be about his visit to the doctor and his Prozac prescription :p

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No, it will never happen.

I shall always resist. I suppose my recent alcohol rejection is on much the same lines. My grandfather drank too much as did my father and over the years I guess I have too. Morally I have far more in common with good old grandad, but in terms of the binge drinking it's much the same.

Another time to dig in and shout resist. We live and die by the choices that we make and it is a short lifetime. But I think it important that you stand on your own two feet or at least die trying. Maybe it is in such moments that I do actually reject science.

Well, that last sentence doesn't make any sense and that is because I was rash with the edit. Obviously I do not reject science.

When I was in my early 20's and very immature my fiance at the time suffered from depression, so much so she tried to take her own life at one point. At the time I just didn't understand the whole depression thing as there was nothing for her to be depressed about. My advice of 'You just need to snap out of it' or 'FFS just cheer up' certainly didn't help.

Coincidently at the same time a work colleague who I was very good friends with suffered from depression and anxiety attacks as a result of losing her brother in a car accident a few years previously. Again, my similar offerings of advice were no help at all. At the time I just couldn't comprehend what it must be like for them to have something like that. Or more to the point, I plain just didn't believe any of it - "it's all in their head" I wrongly thought. I was 100% positive it could never happen to me as I wasn't 'built' that way...

Fast forward a few years and I had a very messy breakup with a new girlfriend who'd been fuckin somebody behind my back. Unless you have actually experienced something like this yourself it's very hard to explain the pain and hurt you feel. I was basically a wreck and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Unfortunately for me the pain I felt and my obssesing over what she'd done went on for the best part of year. It was during this time when I was at my lowest that I began to understand in part what my fiance and friend had been through.

I don't think I was ever actually depressed even though I thought I was at the time. But after the way I felt I'd never now judge somebody who suffers with depression or anxiety etc in the same ignorant way I did when I was younger. I also realised that no matter how confident you are that 'something like that couldn't affect me', you never know how you'd respond mentally to a tragic event like losing a loved one like my friend did...